Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Urchin on November 17, 2002, 11:23:38 AM
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Well, I'm bored, and getting rather burnt out. So I figured I'd start a good old 'debate' (or flamefest, or whatever) on this old and probably quite tired topic. I used to think it was pilot, all the way. I'm still not quite all the way to the other end of the spectrum, but I'm going to say it is 60/40 or 70/30 plane/pilot.
I'll come back and post the reasoning later, don't feel like writing a novel on it just now.
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when someone shoots me down, it's the plane.
when i shoot someone down it's the pilot.
how can it get any more clear than that?
:D
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I've found in my experience that most people whine or don't whine regardless of what plane they happen to be in.
So I'd have to say in the eternal search of that ever elusive yet extremely satisfying ultimate open channel breakdown, it's definately the pilot.
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You can only do so much with the tools given to you... but there are very few exceptions to this....
And in my mind I feel i'm the exception so I say Pilot.. :D
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Pilotskill1*planeperf1=Pilotskill2*planeperf2
and
Pilot1 victory = integer( 0 to luckofthedayfactor) [initialsituation + Pilotskill2*(planeperf2/planeperf1)]
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Originally posted by Urchin
I'm still not quite all the way to the other end of the spectrum, but I'm going to say it is 60/40 or 70/30 plane/pilot.
Originally posted by Shane
when someone shoots me down, it's the plane. hen i shoot someone down it's the pilot.
Your K/D is 0.4 to 0.6?
;)
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K/D doesn't really have much to do with pilot skill.
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Originally posted by Urchin
K/D doesn't really have much to do with pilot skill.
Sorry, I calculated wrong. Corrected it. (60/40, where 60 is plane and 40 the pilot. the plane shoots you down, and the pilot is responsible for getting kills...)
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Its about 75% pilot 25% plane.
Though guys who can not admit that they are not really good pilots would like to make you believe that the plane is the most important part of the equation.
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No, what I was getting at was in any fight between 2 planes, the end result is 60-70% plane and 30-40% pilot. Of course, a fight between just 2 planes is so rare that it hardly warrants mentioning anymore, which makes the inferior planes even more inferior.
I think it is obvious most people think it is mostly plane, or planes like the N1K and La7 wouldn't be 10% as popular as they are now. In fact, you can take it to an even more absurd level and say that in a fight between an M16 and a Flakpansie, the better 'driver' would win, right? Wrong. The Flakpansie holds every advantage over the M16, which is why it is used approximately 4 times more often. Actually, I think that might be a little low, to be honest. But you understand the point. The differences between the planes aren't as absurd as the differences between the GVs, but to say that some planes don't just utterly dominate other planes is not speaking truthfully.
I'll use Leviathn as an example, since he is a good pilot and a lot of people know who he is. Lev flies the Spit V. It is slow, it turns really well, accelerates well, and has 2 20mm cannon and 4 little machineguns. He does pretty well in the Spit V (as anyone who has flown against him will know). His record for this tour so far is 260 kills vs only 45 deaths. That is just about 6 to 1.
Now lets do a little hypothetical thinking and pick out a new plane for Leviathn. We'll see the 'type' of plane he likes to fly (good turner, for lack of a better word), and see if we can find a replacement plane for him. His Spit V is at the dealer, he broke it. For a 'loaner plane', they give him a 109e4. Well, it is a good turner anyway.
So, allowing for some time to become familiar with his new loaner plane, who thinks Leviathn will go 6 to 1 in the 109E4? Nothing, against him, because I know he is an excellent stick, but I don't. I think tops, he might go 3 to 1. Maybe.
Why? Because the 109e4 is so inferior to what he normally flies that even if he could hop right in and go, he wouldn't be able to achieve the same results. The 109E doesn't turn quite as well, it rolls about half as fast, it doesn't accelerate or climb as well, so he won't be able to manuever it like he can a Spit V. The MG/FF are nowhere near as effective as Hizookas are, so once he gets his opponent to make a mistake, he likely won't be able to kill him with a snapshot, like he can with twin Hizookas.
Now it gets even worse in the Main Arena. Unless you can kill other planes quickly, you will be faced with multiple enemies. So we'll throw poor Leviathn in two hypothetical combats and see how he fares.
In his first combat, he is flying his trusty Spit V. He gets seperated from the other friendlies in the area, and a high Spit 9 bounces him. No problem, he says. Quick pull towards the bandit, who goes for a shot and misses. Quick reversal, snapshot, 3-4 rounds land and the Spit flutters to the earth without a tail. Next, a co-alt La-7 sees two dots and decides to 'investigate'. He sees a friendly spit fluttering to the earth, and an enemy Spit. Why, he'll just blaze in there and kill that enemy Spit! He tries for a Head-On pass, but the enemy Spit ducks him. He then Zoooooooooooooooooooooooommms, and ends up 12k above the enemy Spit, where he can wait for more friendlies to arrive. So, at this point Lev is fine. One down, and one chickenshit in orbit. The La-7 calls his buddy, and says "Hey d00d. I gotz a toejamfire down below me! I can't kill him by myself. Come help me". Ok, in warps another La-7, co-alt with Lev but cruising at 570 mph. So, they take turns running Bore n Zoom passes on him, until they screw up and one guy catchs some Hizooka in the tailfeathers. The other La-7, staying true to form, runs home and lands.
Now, we'll put Lev in his loaner 109, and see how he does. Yet again, a higher Spit bounces him after he gets seperated from some friendlies. Yet again, he makes the Spit overshoot. This time though, he can't quite get his nose pointed around at the offending Spit. The Spit goes back up, then comes around for another pass. Lev manages to make the Spit miss, gets his nose pointed in the right direction, fires.... and completely misses. He forgot the effective range on the MG/FF is about 150 yards. All is not yet lost though! The Spitfire pilot decides to come back down a little early, and Leviathn decides to scissor with it. Around and around they go in a rolling scissors. Now, the Spitfire will eat a 109E up in a rolling scissors, because it turns better, rolls better, and climbs better- but we'll say that since this Spitfire pilot isnt very good Lev manages to hold his own. They are REALLY going around, Leviathn is yanking that ol loaner Emil around like a pro, scissoring up and down at 120-130 mph, sweating bullets because he knows what'll happen if that Spitfire gets a snapshot.
Then suddenly, at the top of the next loop, Leviathn sees an opening! The Spit pilot didn't throttle back, and he squirts out in front! Leviathn yanks the stick over and gets ready to fire! Then, as the Spit is about a second from passing through the gunsight, Leviathn hears "Bang, crunch, crunch, bang, bang", and is spinning out of control.
The enemy La7 pilot tells his friend "Yea d00d! I R0x0r! I just killed another 109!"
"Oh d00d! Way to diddlyin GO man!"
The End.
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imo, put a poor pilot in a high performing plane and he's easily a match for a vet in a low performing plane.
Its the man, not the machine... unless the other guy has a much better machine.
In your example above urchin, i'd say its accurate... but if it was 1-1, lev in his spit 5 and some riff-raff pilot in la7 or n1k (to use the most common examples) comes in.
It would take lev twice or maybe even three times as much effort and time to bring down a guy that has no clue what he's doing BUT has his machine constantly giving him much higher accel and speed and yes, cannons to spray around. Lev WILL bring him down 1-1, but it takes time. Compared to lev in spit 5 and clueless guy in spit 5, lev would smack him down very quickly. Clueless guy in spit 5 would either pull so hard or bleed E so fast while pulling that neat manouver he saw in Top Gun (close your eyes, think of a big white duck thing and yank the stick) he'd stall or fly into lev's guns. Same thing happened in La7 or N1k, the manouver would be pulled with the la7 or n1k would keep the pilot out of the stall zone (very powerful engines, in n1k its practially torqueless) and constantly pulling manouvers lev will eventually wont be able to follow because HE ran out of E following OR the other guy pulled away.
Now in the MA as you pointed out, you will get 6+ people jumping on you the moment they see twisting movements below them. So what would Lev be able to do in a low perfomance plane, even though he is a skilled pilot, having to work 3X as hard and take much longer time to outmanouver/close in a clueless pilot in high performing plane.. and then get bounced?
So far, turn turn turn on the deck and hope the idjits auger. Some will, the rest will just keep at it till they land a ping and win.
Another day in the MA ;) :D
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How much is the plane, and how much is the pilot depends entirely on the planes being matched up. (assuming 1v1 co-e fights where everything else is equal, if you count "Time wasted climbing" as the pilot, then it swings things in that direction)
In identical planes it's entirely pilot skill. The closer matched the planes, the more pilot skill matters. The same applies the other way around. With equally matched pilots, it all comes down to the plane.
In a matchup with a large gap in performance, i.e.(extreme example here) Spit9 vs a 110C, It takes a huge disparity in pilot skill for the 110 to come out on top.
However, both skill AND aircraft deficiencies can easily be made up for by being a potato. Wasting lots of time climbing so as to always come in above any enemies. Ignoring targets that wouldn't result in an easy kill. And flat out avoiding anywhere too dangerous.
While pilot skill can easily make up for being matched up against a better plane, flying that better plane in the first place is a quick and easy substitute for (or boost of)skill.
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Oh yes, in identical planes it is all about pilot skill. In pilot skill I'd include familiarity with the plane, basic overall knowledge (cause most manuevers are fundamentally the same in any plane, the timing just changes), etc.
And Animal, I know I'm a much better than average 'pilot'. There are a handful of guys that can beat me in 'similar' planes, and less than that if we are in one of 'my' planes. However, I still think the plane plays a larger role than the pilot in 'dissimilar' combat.
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I's not this or that, gunnery is a great too factor here.
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How could gunnery possibly be 'to great' a factor? I'd consider that a part of pilot skill. What use is it if you can make your plane do the most wonderful acrobatic moves, but you can't hit a guy thats 100 yards in front of you?
Now granted, some guns are much better than others, but a pilot with good gunnery can switch between planes and take less time to get accustomed to the different ballistics than a pilot with poor gunnery would.
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Originally posted by Urchin
However, I still think the plane plays a larger role than the pilot in 'dissimilar' combat.
Definitly true, although mainly an MA issue.
There are some pilots who are good enough that they can win even when thier plane is severely outclassed. These guys are relativly rare.
The majority of players(the average ones) are all very closely matched, so the plane being flown is more often than not the edge needed to come out ahead. For these players, flying anything but the best planes is prettymuch a requirement to succeed.
In the MA, you are punished for not flying the best planes, and rewarded for avoiding a challenge.
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My sig says it all.
Pilots are confined to the metallic shell they sit in. A rookie in a P-51D might not be able to get a lot of kills, but if he knows just the basics he'd never ever get shot down by anyone in a Zero, or any other plane as a matter of fcact, be it Sakai or Nishizawa.
The fact that MA is a "game", is the only reason there are enough "weakspots" for good pilots to dig into against others in superior planes.
Humans are amazing beings. But they are as amazing as they can afford to be. Besides, they're very unstable, too.
The only ways to negate disadvantages in the plane itself is through cooperation, and/or securing tactical advantages before the battle even begins. Otherwise if "pilot factor" was really that important in actual history, there'd practically be no need for evolution in tactics.
It's a proven fact that only a handful ever become a "pilot" enough to boast "it's the man, not the machine".
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I guess youd have to calrify something here, as Inno kinda hit right on with. If its the same plane, then its pilot. But different planes give different advantages, not every plane is equal. It becomes the pilot being able to play to his planes strengths and his enemy's weakness. This includes not fighting every fight, because a good Pilot knows when he'll be able to surivive a situation or not.
Urchin your example is similar to something along this:
Two marksman are being judge on how well they shoot a target from 100 yards away. One is Given a Rifle with a scope (given all other factors with scope allignment are on), and the other a rifle with no scope. Now who do you assume will hit their target more accurate?
Different planes give obvious advantages in certain aspects maybe even all espects over some planes. Now though its the pilot who makes a descion that helps him overcome the other plane.
-BlckMgk
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I'd agree, except you don't often get a choice in which fights you take part in. How often can a 109E4 decline to fight an La-7? Or a Spit9? Or a N1K2? Or practically anything else, for that matter.
Also, not all planes have advantages. Consider a pilot trying to choose between a 109F4 and a Spit IX. Both planes will out turn an La-7, so thats not an issue. Both planes will be out turned by a N1K2, so that isn't an issue. One plane climbs significantly better than the other, accelerates significantly better than the other, turns better than the other, and is significantly faster at high altitudes. It also has far more firepower. Which plane should the pilot choose? Well, if each plane had advantages, it might be a tough choice. But one plane is beter at everything that the other, so he picks the Spit IX.
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The pilot is the determining factor in most engagements. Even when some people (including myself) whine about how certain planes are incapable of being outflown in certain situations, the pilot of the plane in the disadvantaged position shouldnt have gotten himself there in the first place.
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The Flakpansie holds every advantage over the M16, which is why it is used approximately 4 times more often.
Bad example, since neither vehicle was built to fight other vehicles anyway. Besides, in engagements between ground vehicles (in real life) "operator skill" plainly accounts for far less in a one-on-one engagement than the type of vehicle. If it were a single Russian T-55 against an Abrams M1A1, I'd bet on the Abrams every time. However, when you extend the battle into an entire battalion of T-55's against a battalion of M1's, then while the Abrams still have the material advantage, the tactical abilities of the group commanders play much more influential roles than in the 1 vs. 1 case. ;)
Osties are used more because they are more survivable against attacking aircraft, as opposed to dying from the first few hits like the tissue-armored M-16's. However, I personally believe that for the purpose of defending an area, such as an airstrip, a group of M-16's are considerably more effective since they are far more capable of hitting aircraft that aren't flying directly at them.
Oh yeah, back to the actual topic. :D
I'm going to lean toward pilot skill (and prudence) and say 50/30/20 pilot/plane/luck. In my experience, in a solo engagement between two pilots of dead-even ACM skill, SA, reflexes and quick-thinking, and both with an equal knowledge of how to exploit weaknesses and emphasize strengths, the pilot at the initial disadvantage should always be able to at least force a stalemate, as long as the difference in planes isn't TOO pronounced (If it's like a Pony vs. a Hurri I, then that 30% for the plane gets some added weighting in the average :) ).
And as always, that luck factor is there, like if one pilot receives unlikely, but ultimately fatally bad damage from a low-probability snapshot during the fight, such as a pilot wound, radiator hit or fuel leak.
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Some days I shine in an older plane . some days I stink in any perks. some days I stink in both.
For me it's mostly the mood I start to play in and the situations I find myself in.
I get shot down as much by L33tMan in his la7 than by Lev in his SpitV (to keep the same example). Of course, in the MA... I'll feel more comforteable in a fast plane, but that's another topic :)
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
The pilot is the determining factor in most engagements. Even when some people (including myself) whine about how certain planes are incapable of being outflown in certain situations, the pilot of the plane in the disadvantaged position shouldnt have gotten himself there in the first place.
So... the very best pilots are the ones that never leave the ground? I saw this, because if you are flying something other than an La-7, Spit IX, or N1K2, you are putting yourself in a 'disadvantaged' situation just by taking off.
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Originally posted by Urchin
So... the very best pilots are the ones that never leave the ground? I saw this, because if you are flying something other than an La-7, Spit IX, or N1K2, you are putting yourself in a 'disadvantaged' situation just by taking off.
Wow, a whine with the best of em.
I can agree to a point though. It still bugs me that someone with 200 kills and 100 deaths in an la7, ends up with the same score as someone with 200 kills and 100 deaths in a P-40.
The only real reason to fly the challenging planes is perks, which may be redeemed to either fly the 262, or to be punished for flying a perk prop plane. Hardly worth the penealty most of the time.
(By "real reason" I mean a reason which shows in the game, as opposed to simply what the player happens to think. i.e. There are lots of other reasons, which come down to individual preference, such as being ashamed to fly an la7, or simply liking a certain plane)
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See? I told you.
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What, in the end, is the point of this? It doesn't matter at all and is simply stating the self evident that some aircraft are better than others and as such bring advantages to the table.
I fly the Mosquito alot, frequently as a fighter. However, in doing so I know that I am taking a voluntary disadvantage to every La-7, Typhoon, Bf109, ect, ect that I might meet. If I always wanted to be equal of better off than my opponents I would always fly a P-51D, La-7, Bf109G-10, Fw190D-9 or Typhoon, but I want to fly aircraft that interest me and so I take a disadvantage.
What's to complain about?
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So this is what it sounds like... when dorks whine.
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Originally posted by Karnak
What's to complain about?
Flying late war monsters is rewarded, while flying early war planes is punished. It should be the other way around, at least for everything stat related.
Originally posted by Animal
So this is what it sounds like... when dorks whine.
I normally wouldn't be going this far, except that I havn't been able to play for some 3 days, and won't be able to for another three days.
*twitches*
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:D
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Cheer up Annie, tomorrow is a brand new day.
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Originally posted by Innominate
Flying late war monsters is rewarded, while flying early war planes is punished. It should be the other way around, at least for everything stat related.
Why pay attention to stats? Just do the best you can.
I admit that I track my K/D ratio in certain aircraft, but part and parcel to that is my gestimated handicap for using that aircraft.
A Bf110C-4b has a very big handicap whereas an La-7 does not.
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You fellas can laugh all you want, I could give two toejams what you think. I hate to sound 'elitist', but the only people who's opinions I really give a toejam about are the ones who are as good or better than me. It isn't a 'whine', it is a fact. You take off in anything other than an la7, n1k, or Spit IX, and you voluntarily put yourself in a 'disadvantaged' situation. I've honestly got no clue how good Animal, Fatty, or Innominate are. I am fairly sure that in a 'similar' plane 1v1 co-alt merge, I'd win 100% against any of them. Now there is 'luck', but there also really isnt luck. You make your own luck. If you opponent messes up, and you land a snapshot that hits his radiator, or fuel tank, or whatever, that isn't luck.
Now back to our friendly neighborhood FDBs...
It is a little interesting, at least I think. What do some other people think about plane vs pilot?
If the 'plane' doesn't play a large role in a fight, why are certain planes far more popular than others? Namely, the Spit IX, N1K2, La7, and P51D. Why do so many people fly these if any old person in say, a 202, can be just as successful?
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It's usually the pilot that whines.
:D
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Originally posted by Karnak
Why pay attention to stats? Just do the best you can.
With stats, there are four types of pilots:
Pilots who admit to watching thier stats.
Pilots who deny ever looking, but do it anyways.
And then there are the flat-out statpotatos.(Yea yea, guess which group I fall into.)
Look at the planes flown by the top 5 fighter ranked pilots, and look at the planes they fly. With one exception, they all have half or more of thier fighter kills in a sub 20 eny plane.
So I pose the question again,
Who deserves a better score, the pilot who can maintain a 1 to 1 ratio in a P-40B, or a 2 to 1 ratio in an la7?
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Nobody is questioning your excellence, Urchin. It is well documented that any time you actually do die it's because of some inherent disadvantage, gamey dweeb, or game flaw.
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Originally posted by Urchin
So... the very best pilots are the ones that never leave the ground? I saw this, because if you are flying something other than an La-7, Spit IX, or N1K2, you are putting yourself in a 'disadvantaged' situation just by taking off.
This is why I have grown rather fond of the P51 (both D and B) as of late. I have much more success in the MA with this aircraft. Unless Im a complete moron and do something stupid, I wont get shot down. La7's dont scare me in the slightest - Im just as fast, dont have cannon I need to lead with by 3 miles, and the 51 responds better to ACM than the La7 anyway. I dont fear the N1k2 because I can disengage and reengage at will - the fight is on my terms.
I only marginally fear the SpitIX - this AC is difficult to reverse in a co-E disadvantage situation, can outaccelerate my 51 (or so it seems) and is rather potent in terms of amarmament. Any pilot can use the Spitfire to fly well against anything else. Its got great speed, excellent manuverability, and great guns. While the N1k has great guns and manuverability (not to mention certain "helocopter qualities") its slow. And where the La7 has excellent speed... thats really all it has. Unless your a HO dweeb, its difficult for an La7 to line up a bead - in addition, its not the most manuverable AC in the game.
The Spitfire, while bested in individual categories by the N1k and La7, respectively, is a much more effecient all around fighter - its has no serious weakness except its soft airframe - but good luck getting behind it. :D
Mazz has 22 Kills of N1K2 and 1 Deaths by N1K2
Mazz has 17 Kills of La-7 and 2 Deaths by La-7
Mazz has 28 Kills of Spitfire MkIX and 2 Deaths by Spitfire MkIX
Either way, you fly smart and you can reduce the effectiveness of any aircraft in the arena. :cool:
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Originally posted by Fatty
Nobody is questioning your excellence, Urchin. It is well documented that any time you actually do die it's because of some inherent disadvantage, gamey dweeb, or game flaw.
Screw it. Thought better of it.
Thats what I love about the FDB's though. They can't put up, yet they absolutely refuse to shut up.
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Drama queen alert!
Comon Urchin, you're a prima dona. Admit it. Especially after that hissy fit yesterday practically demanding I not fly the Dora as a B'n'Zer vs your La7.
And in answer to your question at the top, its the pilot AND the plane. Most people have a flying style, match it to certain planes and they rock, match it to the wrong place and they suck. For example, me, I'm a b'n'z'er - take me away from a speedster and I struggle to not stick stir.
p.s. you should wear glittery dresses, you'd stand out more that way :P
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Don't hold back, let it all out.
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Originally posted by Animal
So this is what it sounds like... when dorks whine.
inspiration!!
When Dorks Whine
Dig if you will the squeakers
Engaged in whineage on the BBS
The foam of their rants cover us
Can you my friend
Can you picture this?
Scream all you want of a dorktard
A bandwidth of waste in bloom
Animal strikes righteous poses
He sneers at the heat
The heat between dorks and tards
How can Skuzzy leave this standing?
Among a board so cold? (so cold)
Maybe we're just too demeaning
Myabe just like Air warrior, too bold?
Maybe they're just like war birdies
Cheese never gratified (cheese never gratified)
Why do they fling dung at each other?
This is what it sounds like, when dorks whine
Touch if you will on Flight Models
See how the board trembles with snide
Don't make Skuzzy lock you
There's too much fun inside
How could you leave us just hanging
Among a board so cold? (so cold)
Maybe we're just too demeaning
Myabe just like Air warrior, too bold?
Maybe they're just like war birdies
Cheese never gratified (cheese never gratified)
Why do they fling dung at each other?
This is what it sounds like, when dorks whine (when dorks whine, dorks whine)
Dorklings don't whine, don't whine, don't whine.
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Originally posted by Innominate
Flying late war monsters is rewarded, while flying early war planes is punished.
make up your mind. you get rewarded by flying early planes for the perks they allow you to earn for the ultimate late war monster.
you get punished flying late war semi-monsters by ttaking longer, much longer, to earn the perkies for that uber-bird.
as for "score/stats" a kill is a kill, regardless of who what how.
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Originally posted by Innominate
With stats, there are four types of pilots:
Look at the planes flown by the top 5 fighter ranked pilots, and look at the planes they fly. With one exception, they all have half or more of thier fighter kills in a sub 20 eny plane.
So I pose the question again,
Who deserves a better score, the pilot who can maintain a 1 to 1 ratio in a P-40B, or a 2 to 1 ratio in an la7?
what a surprise coming from such a stat-potato - i only counted 3 types, not 4... :D
rank has nothing to do with ones skill in some plane... plenty of both high and low "ranked" fighter dudes can do quite well in whatever plane they want to fly. maybe it's just a personal choice for personal reasons? yanno, that "$15 buck a month - you pay it you tell me what/how/where to fly thing?"
for score, a kill is a kill. for perkie-whoring, *what* you fly determines how many you earn. for general MA play, i'd consider the pilot being most "effective" as being more "deserving" of a
higher score/rank. argue that if you will, but that's exactly how it's determined.
how about this scenario for you to chew on - who's more deserving:
the p40 1:1 who gets his kills by cherrypicking and/or hanging out near friendly hordes and acks.
or the la7 driver who wanders off away from the crowd, flys low, alone, and consistently manages a 2:1 from an alt/numbers disadvantage?
see? it's all subjective, which is why the tack you're taking is totally self-serving and pointless.
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I'll toss out these examples. Surely someone in the FDBs can point out how to win these matchups. All fights are co-alt, head-on merges.
You are in a F6F, enemy is in a Spit IX. What do you do to win this fight?
You are in a 190D9, enemy is in a La7. What do you do to win this fight?
You are in a 109G2, enemy is in a N1K2. What do you do to win this fight?
You are in a 110G2, enemy is in a P-51D. What do you do to win this fight?
By winning, I mean actually shooting down the enemy plane. You can draw on your 'expertise' as 'pilots' to tell the average MA pilot how to kill the enemy in this situation. Don't hold back now, all you have to do is talk about it, not actually do it, so you should be alright.
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Originally posted by Urchin
I'll toss out these examples. Surely someone in the FDBs can point out how to win these matchups. All fights are co-alt, head-on merges.
You are in a F6F, enemy is in a Spit IX. What do you do to win this fight?
You are in a 190D9, enemy is in a La7. What do you do to win this fight?
You are in a 109G2, enemy is in a N1K2. What do you do to win this fight?
You are in a 110G2, enemy is in a P-51D. What do you do to win this fight?
By winning, I mean actually shooting down the enemy plane. You can draw on your 'expertise' as 'pilots' to tell the average MA pilot how to kill the enemy in this situation. Don't hold back now, all you have to do is talk about it, not actually do it, so you should be alright.
i'll take a stab at the typical ways to win each engagement.
1. run to friends.
2. run to friends.
3. run to friends.
4. run to friends.
I'm an MAster of tactics!!
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Originally posted by Shane
when someone shoots me down, it's the plane.
when i shoot someone down it's the pilot.
how can it get any more clear than that?
:D
lol classic shane:p
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That was a beautiful song, Shane.
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B'n'Z the La7 dweeb til he runs out of fuel and has to land.
Then vulch him OTR.
:D
I have film of a really good example of this if anyone wants it.
Originally posted by Urchin
I'll toss out these examples. Surely someone in the FDBs can point out how to win these matchups. All fights are co-alt, head-on merges.
You are in a 190D9, enemy is in a La7. What do you do to win this fight?
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Co-alt, head on merges.
Not starting out with a speed and alt advantage for either plane.
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Okay, I'll nibble. Though I missed the talk of our greatness, if I recall right virtual experten is what we were mocking, not claiming.
There is no answer of course, unless you can tell me every opponent is going to do the exact same thing after merge (I'd take the HO on any of those if the mood struck me, too. If I'm lucky they'll flip out about it).
I can tell you short of the 110 (in which case I most certainly would headon) they are not engagements I would be afraid of, even if it ended in tight turning on the deck. But therein lies the difference, if it doesn't work out I'm not going to lose it. I would just go back again.
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I'd have to say it's... mostly the pilot , b/c i love upping a 205 or hurri1 and finding a N1K or spit in a furball, and blasting him out of the sky and seeing You Shot Down 176432jr :) He was in better plane , and he was fighting a inferior plane but with a good <:D> pilot.
Anyone can up a N1K and fly into a fight and kill an enemy with 2-3 pings and look and , oh theres another boom another and so on and so on. But with a few planes you cant just point your guns at someone and ping them 2-3 times and they burst into flames , you have to stay with them and keep plucking away with the pea-shooters and keep your SA the whole time.
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Although the machine certainly may not hurt, I believe its the pilot.
Hortlund, Saw, myself, and some others (I can't remember who else or if saw and hort were even there!) were practising in the DA a while back for the BoB scenerio. Towards the end of our session we became bored. We rolled two 262s against two 09Es. Heh, embarrassingly, the 262s lost. Hehe, we made a bet before we engaged... the loser had to announce something shocking on ch1 in the MA with the losing wingie. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I believe Saw and I prefer to fly naked, holding hands, in a two-seat P-51.... according to the bet :p
Its the pilot... and... not-so-much the machine. :D
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Urchin, please don't lump all the FDBs together. Fatty & Animal don't speak for all of us. They're upitty rabblerousers who should be ignored. Hopefully they'll learn their place behind the truly great pile-its with skilz in this game played over the intardnet. Perhaps one day (with lots of diligence and patience), they'll change their ways, maybe even be fit to follow in your footsteps or dare I say...wear your underwear as they stumble around in a half-nekkid drunken stupor. You sir, are a hero to aspiring little tardlings like me, and I you. Bravo, carry on the discussion.
SOB
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Originally posted by Fatty
Okay, I'll nibble. Though I missed the talk of our greatness, if I recall right virtual experten is what we were mocking, not claiming.
There is no answer of course, unless you can tell me every opponent is going to do the exact same thing after merge (I'd take the HO on any of those if the mood struck me, too. If I'm lucky they'll flip out about it).
I can tell you short of the 110 (in which case I most certainly would headon) they are not engagements I would be afraid of, even if it ended in tight turning on the deck. But therein lies the difference, if it doesn't work out I'm not going to lose it. I would just go back again.
Ok, so you try for the head-on if you are in a 110 and your opponent is in a P-51. Most people can duck a head-on, they aren't to difficult to avoid. Besides, the pilot in the P-51 should know that he should be able to avoid a head on and still kill you easily, because he is... well.. I guess he is just that much better a pilot that you are.
But there is no advice you could give to our newer players regarding some general tactics they could use? No possible, well, I guess, advantage that ... their being a... um... inferior pilot, could give them?
You've convinced me that the planes in question have absolutely nothing to do with how a fight turns out, so please tell us what tricks you use to win all of, well.. a majority of... well.. some.. wait... a few.. of the fights listed above. I'm literally wide-eyed with anticipation.
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Another thing I was hoping one of you wise and talented fellows could explain to me. I was just taking a quick look at the 'expanded score' pages (they are really neat things you know!) and I noticed you can select 'plane' vs 'plane'. From there (quite exciting!) you can pick "all" vs "all". This brings up the NEATEST little page. It has a LIST of all the planes we have, how many kills and how many deaths they have. You can also pick a plane vs 'all', and get a complete breakdown of how the plane performed against every other plane! So, so, amazing.
But, I digress. I was a little puzzled when I looked at these pages. Armed with my newly found knowledge of exactly how little the planes in question effect a fight, I expected to find certain results when I discovered this neat 'score' page.
I was hoping you could take some time away from rampaging and destroying all in the Main Arena (or at least talking about it), and help me understand why these things that I found are the way they are. Is that ok? Again, I'm bursting with anticipation, hoping to bask in the glow of your knowledge.
Here are some puzzling things that I found:
The 109E-4 has 156 kills, and 418 deaths. This works out to a K/D of .3723 (I think that means it gets .3723 kills for every time that one dies, but I'm a little murky on that. Can you clear that up to?). Interestingly enough, the 109G-10 has 9,036 kills and 7,143 deaths. This works out to a K/D of 1.2648. It seems that all the talented pilots must fly the 109G-10 then, right? Just the sucky pilots fly the 109E-4, and apparently there arent to many sucky pilots flying it, either.
Another one that I found odd.
The C202 has 579 kills, and 889 deaths. Thats a K/D of .6506. The C205 has 3,482 kills, and 3,288 deaths. Thats a K/D of 1.0587.
That means the C205 pilots are just about twice as good as the C202 pilots, right? Not to mention they fly a lot more.
One last thing that really puzzles me. I mean, this one is really troubling. I noticed that you can check individual PLAYERS stats out with this neat page that I found. This one 'pilot', who will remain anonymous for his own protection, has some really good scores in some planes... but bad scores in other planes. For example -
He had 62 kills, and 2 deaths in the 190D-9. Thats a K/D of 31.
But, he had 6 kills and 5 deaths in the C202! Thats only a K/D of 1.2. Does that mean he all of a sudden got 30 times worse, just by changing planes?
Can you explain this to me? I am poised at my computer, clicking the refresh button with baited breath, awaiting enlightenment.
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Originally posted by Urchin
Does that mean he all of a sudden got 30 times worse, just by changing planes?
No, I think this means you have way too much time on your hands. It's just a game dude.
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Originally posted by Urchin
Most people can duck a head-on, they aren't to difficult to avoid.
Judging by the nightly outbursts on channel 1, its painfully obvious to me that this statement is false.
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I've never had a problem avoiding them, and you all know I suck. Surely the average player is far, far, far, FAR better than me at.. well, anything in any fighter.
Still waiting for someone to enlighten me regarding my questions above.
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Urchin it's about time someone with some solid facts brought this issue to light. Based upon the simple numerical data in the extended scores page, you are absolutely right: only the worst pilots fly the worst planes! It is, after all, the man, not the machine.
Good job researching this little number. The issue is dead and buried.
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Urchin:
In my opinion the better the pilots are, the less the aircraft matters. So I think your 60/40 70/30 is actually a sliding scale. With reasonably competent (ie not dweeb) pilots the plane matters a great deal. With very good pilots I think it matters much less. Since we are already picking on Leviathn, let's continue the exercise. My bet is that in an La7 you could BnZ Lev's SpitV with near impunity: i.e. you could keep you speed sufficient and control your engagement parameters so that he would be very unlikely to damage you. Of course, I doubt he would give you any useful shot either. For you to give yourself a decent shot opportunity on him, you would have to slow down and or turn enough so that you would be in serious danger from him if you didn't kill him on your gun pass. In short, he would force you to accept some risk in exchange for making a viable attack. For 2 competent but not very good pilots in an la7/spitV matchup, I don't believe this is true. The La7 could probably BnZ the spit with impunity and have a decent chance of getting a quick kill. In almost any matchup between 2 different fighters, the "inferior" fighter will have some advantages over the better one, and very good pilots will force their opponent to play to their ride's strengths (at least somewhat).
Here is my explanation for the stats. At any time a lot of the people flying AH are relatively new (been here less than 3 months). Most of these newbies are simply not competent at the game. For these people the aircraft matters a great deal. Of the remaining players, most are competent and a small percentage are pretty good. So only a small percentage of the pilots flying in the MA have sufficient skill so that the pilot matters more than the plane. For the bulk of the MA players, many of which are new, the plane does matter a lot and the statistics reflect this.
Hooligan
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Originally posted by Urchin
Still waiting for someone to enlighten me regarding my questions above.
1. You are right.
2. You are whining.
3. The MA is the way it is, whining won't change that.
4. If you want something changed, figure out how to change it, and explain why it would work.
So far everything you've said has been what everyone already knows. So the question is, what would you do about it?
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Statistics dont lie but you can lie with statistics.
In the MA - survival depends on a fast plane. You can argue with this, I suppose, but the majority of the times I die arent because the pilot was any "better" than me - its because I made a mistake and got slow. In a 1v1 situation, slow is almost ok - but as soon as another aircrfat arrives - or even 9 or 10 if youre fighting kniggits, your screwed. I find myself parachuting to the ground if I have lost my speed advantage in or on the outskirts of a furball.
As soon as you lose the ability to engage and disengage on your own terms, you are at a disadvantage. Of course in almost all cases like this, you must force an overshoot - this means getting slow in one way or another - this is fine for the aircraft you are fighting, but his 5 buddies now have numerical and position advantage on you.
The trick to fighting any plane by itself in the MA or in the DA is to use its strengths against it. If the aircraft is slow, stay fast, if the aircraft is fast, force him to get slow. If the abilities of the two engaged aircraft are similar, you are now flying more against the pilot. In this case, I find (In the MA) that E is everything. If you can figure out how to counter what your opponent is doing, youll win everytime.
If your opponent pulls a panic fueled flat turn, move to the vertical to extend and you can reengage at your leisure. If youre bloodthirsty, a high yoyo will work. The key is to make equal trades. If youre going to use E to turn, make sure you trade it for altitude. By contrast - if youre going to drop your altitude to order to engage, make sure you get speed as a result.
Resources are paramount - as in any other activity. The aircraft which uses up its resources first (E, alt, speed, ammo, fuel) is at an immediate disadvantage. The proper use of these resources is what wins fights. The wonderful thing about air combat is you can trade one resource for another (see above paragraph). As long as you remain balanced, and have an advantage in a single area - you can use it to your overall advantage and win any fight.
On a simpler note - I will state that I rarely find myself in a fair fight in the MA. I dont mean numerically - because if I have 8-9K alt on 3 or 4 cons the only thing that I need to make sure of is that I kill them all quickly enough so that the last one doesnt have the time to climb to me. By the same token, I dont mind being lower than a con, just so long as Im faster. By avoiding "fair fights" what I mean is that a good portion of my kills are people who dont even know I am there. Be it AFK, concentrating on something else, no SA, etc - these are the kills I love - if the aircraft doesnt see you at 600 back, he wont see you at 100 back - easy stuff - just roll right in on him, admire Superfly's artwork, and press the fun button. The majority of the rest of my kills are people who I force to give up resources - primarily E. My gunnery isnt top notch - so I love when an aircraft is sitting pretty at about 125 IAS for me (read: rope).
If you remember when you first started playing these games, be it Air Warrior or Warbirds, your first few months, if not your few few years were spent focusing more on killing than living. You saw an enemy icon and by god you were gonna shoot it down. You blew every resource you had to shoot down that one plane and were then faced with 3 or his freinds which dispatched your low and slow bellybutton rather quickly. The successful sticks in the MA are those who think of the game in a fashion similar to billiards - if you play pool - you know that you need to sink the ball youve got your eye on - but aside from that - you also need to set up your next shot. What good is sinking a single ball when you simply give the que over to your opponent afterwards? In the MA - make sure youve got enough left for successive aircraft - if you can learn when to lay your cards down and when to fold and wait for the next hand youll do alright.
Wow - long post sorry - if it doesnt make sense I apologize - tried to explain how I think of combat in AH - thats alot of thought to put into a few paragraphs. :D
On a side note - Im well aware that youre a capable stick Urchin, so If youre having trouble fighting certain aircraft, you need to reexamine the basics of why they give you trouble and adjust youre plan of attack. My guess is that the problem lies in the very first step of the fight - deciding whether or not you can win and engaging or disengaging from there. I usually wont enter a fight unless Im relartively certain I can win it. When I engage into a fight that I have doubts about winning, its because I made a mistake and was forced into it - this of course means that the pilot in the other aircraft was good enough to show me that "there is always someone better."
:cool:
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Originally posted by Urchin
One last thing that really puzzles me. I mean, this one is really troubling. I noticed that you can check individual PLAYERS stats out with this neat page that I found. This one 'pilot', who will remain anonymous for his own protection, has some really good scores in some planes... but bad scores in other planes. For example -
He had 62 kills, and 2 deaths in the 190D-9. Thats a K/D of 31.
But, he had 6 kills and 5 deaths in the C202! Thats only a K/D of 1.2. Does that mean he all of a sudden got 30 times worse, just by changing planes?
Can you explain this to me? I am poised at my computer, clicking the refresh button with baited breath, awaiting enlightenment.
I think it indicates that he hasn't figuired out how to best fly the C.202 yet. Each aircraft has its better and lesser points. Learning these is critical to success. Typically, you can't take a 202 into situations where you can take the Dora. Simply because the Dora is fast enough to get away. On the other hand, the 202 cannot escape quite so easily. A second factor is the lousy guns of the 202. To get a kill, it often requires a great deal of ammo be expended. This can keep you in the fight too long, and you find yourself being overwhelmed by numbers.
I've flown the 202 this tour with good success. Largely because I have learned to use tactics that minimize the plane's limitations.
The issue of plane or pilot is impossible to define, because so many variable factors are present. A great pilot in a great fighter will be very tough to beat. Likewise, a Noob in a great fighter is just another kill waiting to be claimed by a skilled pilot in damn near anything.
I suspect that you are reading too much into that stat. If that guy flys the 202 enough, he'll learn how to better use it, and the stats will change accordingly. SA, tactics and ACM skills rank in that order of importance. Especially in early war fighters like the 202.
My regards,
Widewing
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Not one mention of scissors?? In my fw, I kill more than kill me when they start on my 6 and I start the scissors. otoh, Mathman has zipped in and killed me twice less than 15 seconds into my scissors. I vote for pilot skill. Heck, there are pilots that absolutely can not be killed 1v1 by us mere mortals. CAN'T!!
Gorski
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/quote
If you remember when you first started playing these games, be it Air Warrior or Warbirds, your first few months, if not your few few years were spent focusing more on killing than living. You saw an enemy icon and by god you were gonna shoot it down.
/unquote
So VERY true. I am in my third month of AH, never played on-line before. See it, kill it, if possible. As a matter of fact, I have become a fairly competent killer by now. It's just so much fun, instant gratification
Most of my deaths come from situations where I find myself at a disadvantage and not infrequently it is my own fault (Read: Nearly always). Yesterday I ran into 10+ icons with my FM2 and I was low too after having been embroiled in a nice dogfight on the way. Ofcourse I tried to sneak away but an FM2 is a bit slow for that...
To try to cure this, I am flying the P47 as a fighter more and more. To survive in this dumptruck you need to think ahead. A bit like chess or indeed, maybe playing pool. I don't get that many kills, but I manage to land my sorties every now and then too.
Long road ahead, much to learn, but hey, it's fun!
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word of the day:
bloviate.
:cool:
here's what i'd really do in all 4 situations.
1. kill the spitix and die by the ensuing gangers.
2. kill the la7 and die by the ensuing gangers.
3. kill the niki and die by the ensuing gangers.
4. kill the p51d and die by the ensuing gangers.
:D
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Oh but whining is the way to illicit change in the MA Innominate, perked Chog, more complicated bomb sighting, and the upcoming forced side balancing clearly illustrate this.
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Originally posted by aztec
Oh but whining is the way to illicit change in the MA Innominate, perked Chog, more complicated bomb sighting, and the upcoming forced side balancing clearly illustrate this.
2 out of 3 not bad. i believe the buffers were drooling over the norden sight thingy before they realized it'll take *some* skill to use.
i came in a few tours before the chog got perked... from how i gather, it was well worth perking slightly. i'm honestly still puzzled as to why useage dropped so dramatically over a few measely perkies - i mean, 8, then 10 perkies? :confused:
as for the side balancing, i have a feeling it's not gonna be too well accepted, and to be honest, i've always stated you can't legislate players' ethos. it's almost like the nature v nuture argument, except the MA nutures one's basic nature.
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Hooligan nailed it!
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Okay...listen up you tards. Its both..plane and pilot. The skill levels of the pilot ethier increase the advantage of the plane or subtract from that advantage. A good pilot in a early war plane vrs an "average" pilot in a lte war monster is essentialy much more of an even fight.
If its NOT the plane then WHY bother improving the perfermance of said planes? BECAUSE the PLANE FACTOR does count. It can even the playing field or subtract.
Your looking at 2 variables... x=plane, y=pilot. The sum of both is what makes total.
xBAT
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Originally posted by aztec
Oh but whining is the way to illicit change in the MA Innominate, perked Chog, more complicated bomb sighting, and the upcoming forced side balancing clearly illustrate this.
We don't know how the side balancing will be done, I doubt it will be forced.
As far as I'm concerned, whining is when you complain about something in the game being wrong, without offering any explanation of why it shouldnt be that way, or how to fix it.
i.e. "My c202 is always getting killed by la7's, spit9s, n1k2s and p51s!!!" is a pure whine, with no value.
Adding an argument of what to do about it, and why that should be done would give the post value.
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Originally posted by batdog
Okay...listen up you tards. Its both..plane and pilot. The skill levels of the pilot ethier increase the advantage of the plane or subtract from that advantage. A good pilot in a early war plane vrs an "average" pilot in a lte war monster is essentialy much more of an even fight.
If its NOT the plane then WHY bother improving the perfermance of said planes? BECAUSE the PLANE FACTOR does count. It can even the playing field or subtract.
Your looking at 2 variables... x=plane, y=pilot. The sum of both is what makes total.
xBAT
missing several more variables than that.
inital alts, speeds, pilot personality, flight objectives, connection stability/latenecy, proximity of friends/acks/enemas/wife-girlfriend ack, amount of booze/drugs consumed, vidcard/cpu/input devices, time of day in and out of game, phase of the moon... need i go on?
:D
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You are in a F6F, enemy is in a Spit IX. What do you do to win this fight?
Dunno, I don't fly the F6F much but I know that it can out turn a spit 9 when fuel loads are in its favour.
You are in a 190D9, enemy is in a La7. What do you do to win this fight?
Since I'm in a 190D9, I've always have atleast enough E to get to atleast 13 or 14k in a zoom climb. Therefore, I'd have every advantage except turn ability at that alt. Hard to lose.
You are in a 109G2, enemy is in a N1K2. What do you do to win this fight?
Spiral climb while testing his fuel load vs. your own. Turn/E fight if he's heavy on fuel. Running on deck is always an escape option otherwise.
You are in a 110G2, enemy is in a P-51D. What do you do to win this fight?
Point, shoot, spray and pray. Take any available shot, but don't let him rope you, fight with angles and make the best of the available shots. If he attacks, shots WILL be available, even if they're only HOs.
So obvisouly these situations put one plane in a disadvantage, in each of those situations. Keep in mind that pilot skill in the MA is mostly about how to put yourself in favourable positions, not how to beat a single opponent. If you're in a 110G2 flying alone against a P51D coalt, you've already made a mistake or two and are in a disadvantage because of it. Obviously it's easier to find and stay in a favourable position with some planes and the perk system IMO should encourage people to use the planes that are more challenging. It obviously doesn't do that very well, and I bet it has next to no effect.
At the moment, the perk system simply limits the number of perk planes in the arena. It has no other purpose. That's another argument though, and I don't want to hijack the thread.
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Originally posted by Shane
missing several more variables than that.
inital alts, speeds, pilot personality, flight objectives, connection stability/latenecy, proximity of friends/acks/enemas/wife-girlfriend ack, amount of booze/drugs consumed, vidcard/cpu/input devices, time of day in and out of game, phase of the moon... need i go on?
:D
Yea..your right Shane... lol. I firmly believe in the KISS factor though; Keep It Simple Stupid. Complexity is wasted on the masses...and particualry.. me.
xBAT
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(some of this has already been mentioned)
1. Gunnery (*not* gunnery %, which is a 'stat', see below) is way more important than most people think it is. In almost every fight where the odds are stacked against you, you will probably have one shot where if you are a very good shot you can end the fight then and there. This is why there are 100 people who may try to be 'master of the overshoot like drex' but they die like flies because they can't capitalize on the one chance they get. At least 3 times on any given night I find myself thinking I am about to explode and I never do. "I would have killed me for certain" goes thru my head - and on those 3 cases it is because I gave the other guy what *should* have been an easy kill.
2. Shane has a point, and that point is why the 'stats' cannot really be used to support an argument. The 'stats' do not tell you the mindset of the person the 'stats' are assigned to. If you looked at my 'stats' for the current TOD, and used them to reflect on my 'ACM skill' with someone whom I played WB with for 5 years or so and who now plays AH, they would probably tell you that 'something does not add up'. The same goes for many, many other players. I am sure there are TODs where the TOD 'stats' for drex and eagl would leave someone saying "how in the heck did those guys win all those 2 on 2s, especially vs. xxxx and xxxx who always have such great k/d ratios?".
Here's one example with an explanation: If you look at my 'stats' for this TOD (heck, for most TODs sadly) what you are seeing is alot of intentional takeoffs from heavily capped airfields becuse I have 10 min. to play AH and I want to shoot something. Hidden in that 10 min. is alot of my getting killed on the runway, etc. Mixed in with a bunch of '0 kills and 1 death' missions are a couple of 'shoot down 3 massively complacent vulching enemy in a Yak-9' mixed in with the occasional 'fly a real fighter sweep with wotan/drex/etc.' where the k/d for said mission is probably 10/0 or greater. Motivation is key. Someone can fly for (and attain) a good k/d and be easy meat for almost anyone with decent experience in a 1 on 1 engagement, regardless of the aircraft matchup. k/s is especially useless as a measure of skill due to rearming. If you could not rearm and someone had 10 k/s in a Yak, you'd know that he was at least an exceptional shot - barring vulching a totoally defenseless airfield...which is why 'average flight time of target' is a 'stat' that would be very useful.
3. I am a total believer in the theory of 'most fights are lost as opposed to won'. I believe in this in AH and in almost all cases of direct competition in real life. If you really think about it, most 1 on 1 engagements end almost immediately after someone makes a really bad mistake. Even in WBs 'heyday' as far as action is concerned, when you had roughly the same 80 guys playing every night - so there really weren't alot of 'easy kills', and there were lots of '1 on 1 engagements' (ah, the good old days, where you could tell 2 team mates to let you and a certain enemy go out to sea alone, because you wanted a good fight...something that the obsession with 'stats' basically killed I think) it was 1 time out of 10 where a 1 on 1 engagement went for more than 2 min. or so. That's why I think the 'pilot' matters alot. A great stick in a Bf 109E-4, fighting vs. a La-7, is going to know he's outmatched in the aircraft department and this is going to make him more focused and he probably won't make any mistakes. An average stick in the opposing La-7 can get killed if he makes one bad mistake. The most common one in my book (with the above matchup in mind) would be pushing the fight too hard in the vertical and giving the 'great' Bf 109E-4 a shot that the 'average' La-7 didn't think was a 'dangerous shot to give'. More often than not, the Bf 109E-4 then shreds the La-7 in some high speed crossing deflection shot at range 140 or so, with the La-7 driver saying 'lucky damn shot' to himself if he's arrogant or 'wow how'd me make that shot' if he still thinks he has something to learn.
In general, I'd think of aircraft as performance multipliers for pilot skill. A real killer, attempting to shoot down everything nearby and intent on landing all his kills would really make life difficult for 4 or 6 Bf 109E-4s if flying an La-7. An average La-7, unless flying very conservatively, would pretty quickly make a mistake vs. 4 or 6 average Bf 109E-4s (not keeping track of the 2 with the highest E state, burning too much E to get a good gun solution one time too many, etc.) and would then wind up getting shot down.
'Stats' are very deceptive. Early on in AH I went hunting for 'good fights' vs. enemies with 'high k/d & high k/s' and/or enemies who other (newer to online flight sim) players spoke of as 'being really good'. More often than not they were a real let down as far as a sweat producing 1 on 1 goes. Then some guy whom I never have really heard of would totally shock me in a 1 on 1.
Mike/wulfie
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In an arena where a pilot is free to pick whatever weapon they wish - it is of course pilot vs. pilot. A pilot can assess their perceived skill level and pick a weapon that best suits them.
An especially good pilot might pick a 109E just to show the La7 that he is that much better than them, or a newbie might fly a La7 because they need all the help they can get, etc etc etc.
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So I'm confused. Am I a good pilot or a mediocre one because I enjoy flying a Spit V?
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Shane
when someone shoots me down, it's the plane.
when i shoot someone down it's the pilot.
how can it get any more clear than that?
:D
This is the only correct answer!!!!!!!!!
:D
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
So I'm confused. Am I a good pilot or a mediocre one because I enjoy flying a Spit V?
-- Todd/Leviathn
You must figure the Sp9 is overkill? :)
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
So I'm confused. Am I a good pilot or a mediocre one because I enjoy flying a Spit V?
-- Todd/Leviathn
I'm sorry Levi....there is something wrong with you for flying just that one plane....not sure what it is, but be assured, there is something wrong with you.
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Originally posted by Urchin
I'll toss out these examples. Surely someone in the FDBs can point out how to win these matchups. All fights are co-alt, head-on merges.
You are in a F6F, enemy is in a Spit IX. What do you do to win this fight?
You are in a 190D9, enemy is in a La7. What do you do to win this fight?
You are in a 109G2, enemy is in a N1K2. What do you do to win this fight?
You are in a 110G2, enemy is in a P-51D. What do you do to win this fight?
1: I would tell you, but then everyone would know how to do it.
2: Use roll advantage of 190. Shoot the La7 down.
3. Laugh at plane with red circles on wing. Shoot it down.
4. Think about how good ponies look when their wings get shot off. Shoot the wings off the pony and laugh at the guy when he bails and you shoot him in his chute.
Seriously Urchin, if you are the good pilot you say you are, why should anyone even have to take the time to tell you what to do in these situations? Are you that insecure in your abilities at playing a game that you need to have other people tell you that you are good?
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I for one am sick to death of these FDB. They got this game all wrong.
You know what they do? These amazinhunks fly around in the arena having fun and laughing at tards. Sometimes, if their aim is good, they shoot chutes. Can you believe that toejam?
What a frikkin bunch of no talent jerk-off sons of squeakes.
Can I join please join JG2?
please.
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Two things to comment on,
Great post SOB,,
Drex wins in anything.
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Originally posted by wulfie
3. I am a total believer in the theory of 'most fights are lost as opposed to won'.
Mike/wulfie
Just summed up the entire thread in one sentence. :cool:
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depends... unless you're flying against a monkey, it's hard to shoot down a 262 in a P40B
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Urchin has 71 kills and has been killed 7 times in the Fw 190A-5. K/D 10.14
Urchin has 63 kills and has been killed 3 times in the Fw 190D-9. K/D 21
Urchin has 106 kills and has been killed 11 times in the Ta 152H. K/D 9.64
He must be doing something right.
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Originally posted by Turbot
Urchin has 71 kills and has been killed 7 times in the Fw 190A-5. K/D 10.14
Urchin has 63 kills and has been killed 3 times in the Fw 190D-9. K/D 21
Urchin has 106 kills and has been killed 11 times in the Ta 152H. K/D 9.64
He must be doing something right.
So its clear He doesn't have any thing to complain about.
I know I sure wish I had enough talent to bring it to everyones attention with a post on the BBS.
, someday.
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There are some pretty big factors that haven't been mentioned yet, namely your connection and hardware. I have two computers side by side... and my daughter has her own account. She has a different video card and runs the game in a different resolution. Trust me... we don't see the same things. I can see a dots way off in the distance... PT's etc... long before she can. Lets just say... that kind of information is useful. =)
I used to live off in the boonies with a poor connection 125-250 ping times, and is it any wonder most planes warped out of the way right as I was ready for the kill?
OK... now that that is out of the way. With the same connection, same hardware, etc... I can still compare planes. Yes, I fly a dweeb plane (gave up trying to find one that wasn't) and it is hard to compare stats unless you fly one plane the whole tour... but one recent tour I flew P51D and had a 19-1 KD vs LA-7.... then turned around next tour and I flew La-7 and killed the P51D in similar ratio until I ended the experiment. I think the scale is tilted pretty heavily toward plane rather than pilot. You can't compare my KD ratios with yours and get that useful of data, but if we flew on the same system with the same connection, at the same resolution, same plane... etc... then we could tell something.
There are pilots who could fly a shoe box and kill me most of the time. They are very very good. At the same time... if I fly around and do nothing but cherry pick... I could get my KD ratio above 10. Would I be a good pilot? For that matter... what the heck makes a good pilot? The one that makes it home alive? The one who can fly inverted through a hanger? The one who can hit at d900 with a snapshot? The one with the most kills? The one with best ACM?
The cool thing is... it is for each of us to decide. Fly what you want, how you want, chose to give significance to this or that stat... or no stats... try to win the war or whatever turns your crank.
Sorry for getting a bit off the topic... but I would have to say pilot over plane. Plane is surely a factor, but I think pilot and how he chooses to fly matched with a plane that supports it.
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Sax, I don't know if you have some axe to grind with Urchin but I think you are being unfair.
I think he's posting/trying to have an honest question/discussion. He has used the scores of several pilots as part of his discussion, but he has never talked about himself. It was someone besides Urchin who chose to list Urchin's scores.
Turbot, I don't think anyone has commented one way or the other on Urchin's 'flying ability' in this thread.
Just my $.02.
Mike/wulfie
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Not grinding any axes, hey Urchin has kicked my ars lottsa times and is a good pilot.
I'm just getting even for him ragging me in the MA for being as crappy as I am:)
Sometimes being petty is ok.
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Its the pilot regardless of situation or aircraft. All fights are lost in 1 of 2 ways...well in some cases both will apply
:rolleyes:
#1: Pilot error, you flat got your bellybutton handed to you, and it doenst matter if its 1 on 1 or 1 on 5.
or
#2: Pilot stupidity, see rule #1 for enganging 5 EA, or chasing 1 EA to 5 buddies.
What would be interseting is if there was an actual penalty for dieing in this game. Life is to cheap... to easy to say screw it and dive in to take 1 or 2 with ya before ya have to re-launch and make that long borign trip back to the furbal of choice.
Just my $.02 worth
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Urchin,
Some days ago, I and 4 mates with different planes I cant remember fought you all the same time. I remember I was going to have an easy kill on your TA152, but you did a quick vertical scissors and got my dora, then you kill my mates. I re-uped and when I got there any of my mates were flying. "Urchin has landed 8 kills in a TA152".
It was THE MAN there.....you have all my respect .... you are a great pilot. I could never do what you did there....no matter my plane of choice.
(S) Zamo
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Of course the plane matters, just not as much as the pilot.:)
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Originally posted by wulfie
Turbot, I don't think anyone has commented one way or the other on Urchin's 'flying ability' in this thread.
Just my $.02.
Mike/wulfie
Again I am not specific enough - I really should write longer explanations, maybe include pictures, but I thought the data was self explanatory.
Title of Thread: Plane or pilot
Poster: Urchin
Data: Three of Urchin's 190's w/ Results.
This is the relevance.
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Originally posted by sax
So its clear He doesn't have any thing to complain about.
He wasn't.
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Originally posted by ZAMO
Urchin,
Some days ago, I and 4 mates with different planes I cant remember fought you all the same time. I remember I was going to have an easy kill on your TA152, but you did a quick vertical scissors and got my dora, then you kill my mates. I re-uped and when I got there any of my mates were flying. "Urchin has landed 8 kills in a TA152".
It was THE MAN there.....you have all my respect .... you are a great pilot. I could never do what you did there....no matter my plane of choice.
(S) Zamo
First day? :D
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You poor fools. Urchin actually hires a good pilot to fly on his PC with his HOTAS.
He's in charge of the keyboard ;) ;) ;) :D :D
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In aerial combat what really counts is SA, tactics and numbers, so, for MA is the player/s what counts over the plane by a wide margin.
In the very particular case of a dogfight 1 vs 1, basically, the plane determines what and what not the pilot can do, so, in the long term, is the plane over the pilot unless we refer to very similiar planes.