Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: easymo on November 18, 2002, 12:05:19 AM
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After reading yet another post about Bush Jr. being a deserter. I decided to find out what REALLY happened. These accusations sound ludicrous, since there was a war on at the time. After spending a few hours of searching, and reading the same thing over and over. It became clear; Jr. didn't show up at his duty station. He went off, and went to work for his daddy. As near as I can figure, his daddy had the power to "authorize" an early out.
In the process of wading through this stuff, I saw many negative comments about Guardsmen. IMO this is bull. Guardsmen have been giving their lives for this country since before it WAS a country. Jr., on the other hand, has done nothing (again IMO) to earn the right to call himself a Guardsman. He is a deserter.
If you can find anything to counter this statement. Please post it. I would be happy to read it.
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Cabby will do a drive by " liberal-leftist" attack on you any minute.
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algore was released from his "reporter" duty in viet nam early to work on his daddys relection campaine, his daddy lost
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I dont much care what Al's doing. He is not in the Commander and Chief's chair.
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Easymo,
You along with a whole ton of other vets want to know the same thing. Vets from WWII and on.... and they've put together thousands of dollars into a reward for anyone who can prove he didn't desert.
It's still unclaimed.
Toad will be along any second to make apologies and 1/2 excuses and attempt to slide the blame onto a completely unrelated topic while chattering on about archaic filing systems back then or something.... :) .... but the facts is the facts:
The President of the United States is a deserter.
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That may be hard for him to do. The records are in Denver.
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How is he a deserter? He served in the Air National Guard. Lets also look at the end results- If Bush had gone to Vietnam and flew attack missions, it would have been all for nothing since the U.S. lost the war.
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If you dont report to your commanding officer, when ordered too. You are AWOL. If you never report again. You are a deserter.
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Originally posted by davidpt40
How is he a deserter? He served in the Air National Guard. Lets also look at the end results- If Bush had gone to Vietnam and flew attack missions, it would have been all for nothing since the U.S. lost the war.
...but if he had accidentally killed quayle on manuvers the GOP might have won back the white house in '96
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My brother-in-law quit the National Guard 20years ago. Yep, just quit.... they discharged him (General from what I understand). I've heard other stories too... it's not that unusual. My guess is something similar happened with Bush, or family pull ensured he recieved a discharge which "if" he has... I doubt anything will come of it.
....but it is fun watching the Bush hater's try so hard. :D
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Conjecture, and hazy recollections,..or not..
no evidence = guilty :confused:
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I'd like to see some ANG pilots from the era comment on it. The ANG is alot different than the 'active reserves', from what I have seen and heard.
Also, in a minor but telling show of character, we never saw George Jr. state the obvious to Al or anyone else: "I was a jet fighter pilot, and you were a 'photographer' - no freakin' comparison."
I'm sorry, but from what I have seen/heard/know *nobody* winds up flying jet fighters in the U.S.A.F. without some serious balls and some serious motivation.
Mike/wulfie
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Easymo,
From what I understand it wasn't legally desertion, though from a moral perspective it certainly could be considered so.
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better than the last one (ran to Russia to protest war)
not as good as JFK (saved crew after having PT run over by jap destroyer) <- ever stop and think how an agile pt boat could be rammed by a relatively slow arse destoyer?
not as good as Bush Sr (pilot ww2)
sounds like the ANG is just a few steps up from a HS ROTC. Easy out for those with the power & $$'s to do so. Makes you wonder why slick didn't even take that route, he'd rather protest the gov the ppl would elect him to "lead" for 8 years...
easymo
ppl don't care anymore - they can't remember yesterday
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"Slick" didn't have the power or connections to pull it off.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Conjecture, and hazy recollections,..or not..
no evidence = guilty :confused:
Welcome to the new US of A bub!
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Hey, I'm in the military and I care. :)
But 'deserter' to me has a really strong connotation. If that were the real case I would have thought it would have been mentioned alot more strongly when he was running for President.
Like I've said - I want to hear from some ANG pilots. Specifically because I've known some ANG personnel that joked about showing up once a year long before the current President was ever running for President.
Mike/wulfie
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But 'deserter' to me has a really strong connotation. If that were the real case I would have thought it would have been mentioned alot more strongly when he was running for President.
Now Wulf, don't go applying common sense here. If there really was anything legal to it, the Dems would have jumped all over it- unless they were afraid it might uncover an even uglier skeleton in their own closet.
That said, it is a stretch to say he "served".
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Originally posted by Eagler
not as good as JFK (saved crew after having PT run over by jap destroyer) <- ever stop and think how an agile pt boat could be rammed by a relatively slow arse destoyer?
PT's were agile on paper, but rarely worked at optimum levels in the "field". A japanese destroyer probably had at least an equal top speed, and PT's often would shut down engines to listen for the enemy at night.
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With the National Guard, you can just stop going. Eventually, they will fire paperwork and you will be honorably discharged. This is common knowledge. I've done it myself.
What you cannot do is to fail to respond to an activation recall. Basically, from the day you enlist, you are obligated to 8 years of inactive reserve. Active duty time counts against that, so if you serve a 4 year term, you then have 4 years of inactive reserve.
Orders and activation are two different things.
The only thing I can think applies here is that he stopped attending the guard and was in limbo between being discharged from the guard and going into inactive reserve.
I really think that if someone wants to know what's going on here, the policies of the U.S.A.F.N.G is where you should start looking. It is a completely different world.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by midnight Target
PT's were agile on paper, but rarely worked at optimum levels in the "field". A japanese destroyer probably had at least an equal top speed, and PT's often would shut down engines to listen for the enemy at night.
I watched a documentary about this incident some time ago. If I remember correctly they were sleeping when it happened.
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JFK's boat was setting dead in the water when the destroyer ran him down , the destroyer prob didn't even see him.
JFK did not "save the crew" , he pulled one wounded man to shore.
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Originally posted by john9001
JFK's boat was setting dead in the water when the destroyer ran him down , the destroyer prob didn't even see him.
JFK did not "save the crew" , he pulled one wounded man to shore.
didn't he then swim to some island or have the natives row him some where to get help, thus he got the credit?
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Much loyalty chimpys handout bought him isn't it?
If Clinton had done the same he prolly could have had a 3rd term.
VOTES FOR SALE!
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Originally posted by weazel
Much loyalty chimpys handout bought him isn't it?
If Clinton had done the same he prolly could have had a 3rd term.
VOTES FOR SALE!
Pssst the demcrats in the house and senate asked pushed for the rebate....
just saying
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tax rebate a "hand out"?? that was MY MONEY the govt gave back to me.
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Guys, post some credible references/links so that we can all check this out for accuracy.
Have heard this stiff whispered about but no one with any mainstream media credibility or otherwise has come forward with any sort of claim, let alone proof.
Really need to give some sources here or you stand the chance of coming off as ignorqant dumb asses. Wouldnt want that
:)
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Monkey Boy is a sleeze. His 'service' is non-existant, his credibility as a 'serviceman' is also non-existant.
As for Kennedy.. Eagler, yer history apple has lost it's polish.
Datapoint.. a 65' MTB cannot leap fom zero to plane and then to 40 knots speed in less than 3 min. Sleeping or not, under those conditions (pitch black darkness), where he was and the relative positions of the two vessels spelled doom for the 109.. only thing that might have saved her is if she was aleady in motion... which she was not. Per ORDERS.
Secondly.. how did Kennedy handle the crisis?? ALL info indicates he kept his head, did an exemplary job of keepin his survivors together and then getting them rescued. He put his OWN life at risk far more than any other individual of that party did, and prevented the crew from surrendering when it became apparent that the Navy had stopped looking for them.
Lastly, Eagler, the fact that most of us are still alive is because of Kennedy.. he pulled us thru the Cuban missile showdown... hint CRISIS.. frankly, I would not have given 2 cents for our chances with Nixon facing Kruschev.
Takin pokes at Kennedys courage under fire because us vets think Monkey Boy is panzie assed weazel is kinda lame.
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"But 'deserter' to me has a really strong connotation."
Yes it does. And by every piece of evidence I can find. It applies here.
"Now Wulf, don't go applying common sense here"
O.K. Lets.
In answer to comments of this type. Let me remind you, there was a cold war on at the time. The Russians where the biggest threat we faced, not the Vietnamese. The NG of that era was a very large part of our defenses. Also you didn't "just quit" in those days.
On a side note. One thing I ran across, while looking for an alternative answer, was that the balls and determination where supplied by his daddy, who set the job up with his cronies down here in Texas.
Another point of common sense for me is this. If you are looking for a saint. You don't go looking among the ranks of the politicians first. But, the Prez is also the CaC. I don't feel comfortable with either a draft dodger, or a deserter, in the big chair.
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You will upset the republican revisionests who claim EVERYTHING GOOD comes as the result of chimpy being in the White House.
Originally posted by Krusher
Pssst the demcrats in the house and senate asked pushed for the rebate....
just saying
Sheesh hang, don't insult me by using my moniker in conjunction with monkey boy.
I may be an amazinhunk but I'll never sink as low as the deserter POTUS. :D
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Originally posted by Eagler
didn't he then swim to some island or have the natives row him some where to get help, thus he got the credit?
Yes he did. And according to this documentary that put him in hot water just after the incident. The scrict procedure was for the crew to stay together and his action was initially interpreted as a violation of the procedure and abandoning the crew.
With time though (and some propaganda from a daddy), it was turned into heroic act of "saving" the crew.
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A word on Kennedy.
He is in the ground. He has been there for a VERY long time. He is interesting; you should start a thread.
Jr. on the other hand is in th WH now. And, he may be leading us into a full scale war. What type of man he is, is of some very, current interest.
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Darn it....where is Ken Starr when we need him?
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Easymo-
If you think I am hoisting GWB as some sort of perfection, you have me all wrong. I simply think Wulf makes a very good point about the issue not being used during the election. The Dems would never have let that one slide if they really had anything- unless the rebuttal would have been far worse for the Dems. Common sense suggests there was nothing unlawful done, or at least nothing unlawful that could be proven.
I totally understand how you as someone who served in the jungles would feel about him, and I would never try to convince you otherwise.
Oh and Weazel... could you explain the difference between conservatives voting for tax breaks and liberals voting for entitlements? Seems like votes for sale, doesn't it?
[space reserved for more cut-n-paste rhetoric from DU]
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ain't taken pokes, asked a question about the collision as I was too lazy to look it up myself
continue with bush bashing pls
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Kieran. I assumed the same thing, about the election. That is why I never bothered to look into it. The problem with listening to lefties, is that the constant barrage of popaganda, near truths, and half truths, make it impossible to completely belive anything comming from their camp. I set out on this thing expecting to find that their was a little truth in it, but that it was blown out of perportion. What I found, was that I was wrong. The guy flat bellybutton deserted. If you can find anything that I missed. I am eager to read it.
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If that's the case, Easymo, I'd say you may be right (at least from the moral standpoint). The only question then would be what the Dems might have been afraid of. That of course is another thread.
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I remember reading about this during the election. There was some kind of agreement by both sides not to raise the issue... It was due to the fact that Gore's record, while a hell of a lot better than a deserters (he served), still smacked of priveledge.
So they decided to not even get into it. Mud on both of them.
The reason the Dems didn't bring this up during the election had nothing to do with whether or not Bush deserted. It was merely politics, served up election style. Don't use that as some kind of 'evidence' or better yet come to a "common sense" conclusion that Bush must not have deserted.
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Originally posted by easymo
What I found, was that I was wrong. The guy flat bellybutton deserted. If you can find anything that I missed. I am eager to read it.
First off if you do a google search you will notice EVERYONE of the top pages are flat out Anti-Bush in the Free republic type mode. The main stream media looked at the story and decided to drop it for lack of supportable Evidence (documents and eye witnesses)
You can make your own decision on the credibility of the story. I really dont care one way or the other.
If you want to do some extra research you might want to start with the article in the LA Times that started all of this. In 1999 they did a series of articles on GWB including his service record. They made every effort to show that GWB was given special treatment and deserted, but in the end they admitted that they have NO evidence that Bush was given special treatment or that he deserted.
They pointed to a court document from a AL. gaurd unit officer who said he was asked by a FRIEND of GWB's dad to push it through. He said under oath that while he did process the paper work he never gave him any abnormal help. They also spoke with his 84 year old former AL. Gaurd CO who said he dosnt remember ever seeing him.
They do have concrete documented evidence that he failed to drill in a timely matter. He did make up most if not all of the drills in the last months of his service.
(stolen from a news article)
Assessing Bush's military service three decades later is no easy task: Some of his superiors are no longer alive. Others declined to comment, or, understandably, cannot recall details about Bush's comings and goings. And as Bush has risen in public life over the last several years, Texas military officials have put many of his records off-limits and heavily redacted many other pages, ostensibly because of privacy rules.
Retired Colonel Maurice H. Udell, Bush's instructor in the F-102, said he was impressed with Bush's talent and his attitude. ''He had his boots shined, his uniform pressed, his hair cut and he said, `Yes, sir' and `No, sir,''' the instructor recalled.
Said Udell, ''I would rank him in the top 5 percent of pilots I knew. And in the thinking department, he was in the top 1 percent. He was very capable and tough as a boot.''
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"He did make up most if not all of the drills in the last months of his service."
Please post a link. What I found was that he went missing the intire last year of his service.