Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: jbroey3 on November 18, 2002, 07:01:15 PM
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Why dont you just get rid of the TARGET laser range finder.. and only have a Sign above the aircraft. (heres a Compromise)
I know I know.. many of you will start your crying now.. because you need to have a Giant NEON Placard with "Range" information above your target so you dont lose sight.
Hows about instead of looking at the Freaking Range finder.. (and Even the damn ICON at all..) and start looking at the REAL target... THE AIRCRAFT.
For the love of God.. I wish Aces high would start Being A SIMULATION and stop being a tard game.
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Once again. It is completely impossible to achieve depth perception in a 19'' flat monitor.
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[COLOR=dark-blue]-Nacho[/COLOR]
"i have the fealing nobady cant anderstud what i trying to say"-Minus
(http://www.itsmysite.com/nachosigs/images/109.jpg)
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The game has a way of turning off the icons. If you hate them so much just turn them off! No need to change the game to do that. Just look in the Help file for the keys to do it. How ever good luck telling who's who.
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Are you trolling jbroey?
If not, why do you want to "simulate" legally blind virtual pilots?
J_A_B
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ALT + I Will Toggle Icon Selection To Names ,Plane Type, Friendlies Only, Or Icons Off For That Matter
Try That It Will Get Your Icon Delema Off Your Screen And You Can Play It "YOUR WAY"
Hope That Helps. :D
JustJim
< < DragonHawks > >
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Trolling?.. no.. Its a simple fact.
PEOPLE HERE Rely on Those big fluffy colored Neon Placards hanging over the enemies aircraft.
My point, however is... a compromise.
Leave the Large Neon Placards for the "Blind"... and get rid of the Range information.
It takes NO depth perception to "See" when something is getting "Bigger".
There is no need for "Depth" here.. its not truely a 3d world that we are playing. But ANYONE can determine if a dot/pixel/Aircraft is "Growing in SIZE".
If the PLanes are Growing in size... Common sense will tell you... YOUR Getting CLOSER... Get ready to fight.
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Ok, Sure. You can try to dilute yourself that we rely on the icons because we are dweeby and unskilled, but the fact still remains that it is impossible to get any kind of information from a 2d pixel other than it's coming closer, it's going farther away. You can hamper yourself all you want by turning off icons, but I will leave them on.
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[COLOR=dark-blue]-Nacho[/COLOR]
"i have the fealing nobady cant anderstud what i trying to say"-Minus
(http://www.itsmysite.com/nachosigs/images/109.jpg)
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Originally posted by jbroey3
There is no need for "Depth" here.. its not truely a 3d world that we are playing. But ANYONE can determine if a dot/pixel/Aircraft is "Growing in SIZE".
roadkill.
I play at 1280 by 1024. A fighter at a range of more than about 2,000 yards consists of so few pixels that it is not possible to tell anything about your closure rate.
I would like to see icons changed, but what you suggest is simple minded lunacy.
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Whos the simple minded one here karnak..?
The one who HAS the ability to decipher an object gaining or lessening distance, or the one that is UNABLE to.
Gee, I think I must be somewhat more "developed" than you then.
Maybe its just me, but with my vision I have NO problem doing the above.
Whats your excuse?
:rolleyes:
And for those who do not "quite" understand what I am saying.
I shall keep it simple.
Name of plane(friend or Foe colour) ----> Still over airplane
Distance information----> Not over airplane any longer.
I hope all can grasp this inconceivably, utterly amazing brain stressing idea.
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Its a fact that the current tech of the computer monitor does not provide anywhere near the information you get in real life. There is no workable substitute for the range on the icons. Anyone with reasonable eyesight can tell if a car is moving towards them or away from them, on a computer monitor, you cannot...there just are not enough pixels to provide detailed enough information on relative movement.
I play at 1600x1200, and it would be nearly impossible to tell if a con at 1000 yards was getting closer or farther away based soley on the graphics in the game if the closure rate was fairly low (5 mph for example) without watching the change over tens of seconds....in real life I do it without thinking about it constantly.
Now imagine the poor soul at 640x480 or even 800x600.
I do think that the fact that an actual range number is displayed is somewhat overkill. I would prefer a closure rate, and also a more coarse range figure (you still need #s of some sort because 3k looks identicle to 6k in the game)
Lets keep away from the name calling please. It does nothing to bolster your position, but does great harm to the community. We all have ideas and opinions, and while mine are always right :D , calling names doesnt make it more so.
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jbroey,
I'd love to see you look at three pixels and be able to tell if you are getting closer or further away.
If you can tell that with significantly greater accuracy than 50%, start a psychic phone hotline business.
You are spouting off roadkill like its fact andf like you know what you are talking about. You clearly have no clue about the subject.
I suggest you use the search function and read what I and others have suggested as changes in the past.
Personally I'd like to get rid of the range indicator for cons under 1000 yards away.
I've also suggested replacing the range indicator with a graphical closure indicator.
Another suggestion is to make the icons smaller so they are less obvious.
The fact of the matter is that the further away a con is, the more we need the data provided by icons to balance out the loss of data we'd have in real life. Under 1000 yards the closure rate can at least be reasonably acertained, but much beyond that and people with low end systems start have a major disadvantage forced on them. Telling if you are gaining on a con that is 3,000 yards away is all and well when you're at 1600 by 1200, but the poor suckers at 800 by 600 don't have a prayer of being able to read that.
Out of curiosity, how much detail do you think you could make out, in reality, on a P-51D at 1000 yards? How about 2000? 3000? 4000? 5000? 6000?
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Just leave friendly Icons on and turn off the enemy icons and there ya go. No icon on enemy planes.
It sure makes it harder to see the enemy but it can be alot more imersive.
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I have 20/15 vision, I also fly in real the real world. I have an understanding of what looks like "what" and how "far" things generally are.
Yes, the Reality of this is very obvious: You cannot see as much in a computer "game" as you can in reality, However. Because of the Inheient fact that on the "PC" we have pixels, it is a GREAT clarification as to what you ARE able to see here as opposed to the real world.
Said another way, you can infact SEE MORE here on the PC screen when dealing with aircraft in most cases because of the issues of Limited Blending/visiblity/graphics.. A simple Dot is EXTENSIVLY more as shown here in aces high when in contrast to seeing another Aircraft at the same Range in the Real World.
I am ALSO an Artist, A 3d computer modeler, as well as retouch photo editor type. I DEAL with Pixel by Pixel issues almost daily when doing art. I Fully UNDERSTAND what is shown.. and what is not.
Aces High is very "Crisp" in its graphics,.. no sort of blending, or highly intense coloring/shading, nothing;
this allows you to See that "dot" very very far away.. and I.. yes.. I can see the difference as to the relative motion and its effect on Drawing Near, or creating a GAP measured in distance between me and the contact.
I have played at ONLY 1024x768 and I have a very very clear picture of the virtual world around me.
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Originally posted by jbroey3
Said another way, you can infact SEE MORE here on the PC screen when dealing with aircraft in most cases because of the issues of Limited Blending/visiblity/graphics.. A simple Dot is EXTENSIVLY more as shown here in aces high when in contrast to seeing another Aircraft at the same Range in the Real World.
This is one reason why it was proposed that, when a plane is too far away to actually draw the shape of the plane, that the paint scheme for the side of the plane facing the player be averaged and used for the color of the dots. This would return the use of camouflage for the upper and lower surfaces (well, at least while out of icon range), giving camouflaged planes back a little edge. Not much, though, once you get within con range.
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Hmm....
First he claims to be a pilot with 20/15 vision
THEN he claims: "you can infact SEE MORE here on the PC screen when dealing with aircraft" and claims that the dots can be seen "very very far away" (presumably farther than the naked eye can see airplanes).
"I have played at ONLY 1024x768 and I have a very very clear picture of the virtual world around me."
At that resolution, the view of the AH world is considerably worse than 20/100 vision and it's 2D tunnelvision without depth perception to top it off. You couldn't even get a DRIVER's licence with vision that bad and you're claiming that it's BETTER than real 20/15 vision?
Dude....I call roadkill.
J_A_B
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Just my 0.02 Eur....
Current icon implementation is one of the most arcadish things in AH. I accept we need it for ranges over 1k. Definitely NOT under that range.
If you are unable to judge closure rate under 1k or telling roughly what's your distance to the target, you are due for a serious training period ;)
I strongly vote to get rid of laser range finder under 1k.
Cheers,
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No icon means u will killshoter urself more then u kill enemys.
Because the planesset is mixed.
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Deez, I think the icons are a necessity for people to play games that intend to simulate the real world environment. First, I was also an enthusiastic no-icon advocate, especially spending many hours with no-icons in the CT.
No icon setting strengthens a truly thrilling and intensive gameplay and yet, AH graphics is too severely limited to give satisfactory results to people. After a few weeks of no-icon play, I could actually feel my eyes getting tired because of the increased stress they were under - it is undeniable that the quality of AH visuals is lacking very much compared to real life, and thus it requires excessive attention and concentration, straining, squinting for many people. I use a 19 inch monitor at 1280x960 resolution for playing IL-2, a game with absolutely superior graphics compared to AH.. and yet, even in IL-2 spotting planes can be a real pain.
Therefore, I think the icons themselves are the absolute limit as far as compromises go.
...
However, some points are valid. While icons themselves are a necessity, there's no need for it to stay the way it is. There can be many suggestions, variations and great ideas to how the icons should function.
Also, the "laser range finder" in AH has a tendency to promote long range shots over 'realistic ranges' so frequently mentioned. Some people argue we are all better in gunnery than WWII pilots, but I think it owes more to the fact that people can always confirm too easily whether their shots will land or not. They see the icon, read the numbers... "ah.. 600 yards.. a long burst of my Hispanos probably will ping him once or twice!".... "hmm.. 700~800 yards.. I'd better save ammo..." ;)
Also, identification is all too easy, and as so frequently mentioned in the perk plane threads. With a crude scale of 1 yard = 1 meter, 6.0k range is 6000 meters, 18,000 feet away. I know some pilots have very good eye sight and can spot planes incredibly far away.. but I doubt anybody can tell the difference between a Spitfire and a Bf109 at 18,000 feet. "Spotting" and "identifying" doesn't necessarily come simulataneously. This makes life very hard for people in perk planes short of Tempests or 262.. they have to fly as timid as they can to actually survive and land good scores. Once you are spotted in a weak position scores of fighters will chase you around spraying like mad.
Thus.. I think there are some good reasons and necessities towards modifications on existing icons. A few changes here and there might call for a whole new ball game...
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S!
Icons are needed in MA but laser range finder with 1 yard steps is a joke, no matter about monitor resolution etc blaa blaa.
One (possible old) idea
6 - 4k: only gray icon box (bogey) without plane type. Range info with 1000 yard steps 6..... 5.....
4 - 2k: from now gray icons turn to the red (plane type) or green (ID) concerning the side. Range info with 500yard steps. 4.. 3.5.. 3...
2 - 1k: "normal" icons. Range counter gives only with 200yard steps range
1 - 0: "normal" icons but no range info at all. Its a Gunsight Kindom inside a 1000yard.
OR
Just keep icons as they are now BUT at least change range info steps to the 200yards or even 500yards all the way.
BTW
Why clouds dont cover / disable whole icon and dot?
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and what if it's night ??
i don't think that even with 20/20 2d-vision and at 1600x1200 you will be able to spot a plane (without icon) at any distance ...
will we get exhaust-flames ??
Goner
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Yep, during the night it is bit difficult fight without icons, I know it well. S! RBug
How about this one?
How about if we remove enemy plane type info totally? We still have empty RED icon box with range finder (1 yard laser accurancy inside 1000 yard).
You can Idendify Friend or Foe without problem from 6000 yard (~5500m) distance with icon color.
If you like know enemys plane type, you need get close & personal or ask info from friends.
Now Perk Penalty Planes could have littlebit better change to survive, because d6k enemy plane type info icon aint screem over skys "Who wanna some perks?"
Anyway sooner or later peoples idendify PPPs and conga line is established.
Please, tell why we need enemy plane type info icons in MA?
Why not just a red icon box with range info is not enough?
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Knowing What Your Up Against Is Half The Battle.
If I'm In A Spit I Don't Want To Spend All Day Chasing A RunStang Because Even At 5k Its Hard To Tell Plane Type.
Believe It Or Not, Most People Who Play Games Of This Sort Are Not Totally Enveloped In Aviation, We Don't Know How Many Rivets Are Used To Hold Together An LA-7 As opposed To A Spit V.
I Think The Ability To Turn Icons On And Off Satisfies Everyone Fairly, If You Want To Use DAR Go For It.
Out Of All These Suggestions I See On These Boards If 1/100 th Of Them Were Implied Would Create So Much Havock How Many People Do You Think Would Play.
Some Things Are Great Others Suck, Such Is Life We Deal With That Everyday.
Everyone Wants Everything Changed, Yet When It Poses Problems Then Everyone Turns To squeaking Because What They Wanted Implimented Is Screwing Up Other Aspects Of The Game.
I'll Be Happy With A Stable And As Little Problems As Possible Game As Hitech Can Provide.
WOW Who Pissed In My Coffee This Morning, Sorry For The Rant Just Voiceing My Opinion.
With All The People Who Play This Game, If Everyone Got Their Own Personal Preferences I Think It Would Totally Suck.
No One Is Happy Now, No One Would Be Happy Then Either.
* We Now Return You To The Normal Post, This Has Been A Test Of Drinking Decaffinated Coffee* Obviously It Dont Work
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So far, jbroey3 is the only one who mentioned actual air to air spotting experience.
I have a tiny bit of that experience, and enough to know that it is very, very hard. An icon range of 6km is just rediculous, even under the best conditions.
I know I can judge clusure distance better in AH without icons than in real life. I suggest the rest of you guys give it a try.
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The radioactivity gives people from jersey special vision.. he should turn off his icons to make it fair.
lazs
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Perk Radioactivity :D
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I think the rate of closure information is much more important in a 2D world than absolute range, so I'd settle for some RoC indicator that doesn't necessarily give exact range.
Also, I think there should be some delay in acquiring a bogey based on range. This would eliminate the "three-snap-instant-SA" that is now possible. So, at 6K the dot would appear in 1 second, the RoC indicator in 2 seconds, and the plane type in 3 seconds. Or....something.
I'd also like to see dot dar refresh interval increased to 15-30 seconds, to eliminate AWACS SA, and simulate a realistic lag in ground controller info.
But, in the end, it's all about game play.
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Yet another who missed that the AH MA was never intended to be a simulation of World War II, but rather a game based upon World War II aircraft. Perhaps you would have more luck in the CT forum - they will try anything in there (been working great for them too).
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Always somethin to complain about.
JB...I've flown rl for years and have a problem with your remark about being able to ident in AH more easily than in rl....that's just not true.
If you ask any rl pilot here, I'm certain they will all tell you that they can visually ident another aircraft at well over a miles distance....not only that, but to see specific markings of that aircraft as well.
Is our current icon thingie just right....no, I would like to see a change. Couple of years ago, Toad and myself talked to Dale about changing the current icon markings inside of 1k to a simple red or green dot so as to ident enemy from friendly aircraft....he declined as he believed his way was better. I'm good with that as I feel I have many other concerns along the lines of personal improvement relating to how well I fly his sim/game...in other words, bigger fish to fry.
To say that what we see on our monitors is better than what you see in rl is, well, kinda silly:)
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the fact is that you can see better on the PC in some ways than in real life... ok in one way.
when an AC is distant it's a dot (pixel) in the computer world.
in the real world it isn't so easy to locate.. much more 'blended' with the world.
as for closure rate, aspect, etc.. real world is much better.
hence the icons.
but when it comes to 'locating' a con at a distance.. it's easier in AH than the real world. it ends there though.
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JAB, beyond 10 meters stereoscopic vision does not play a role for depth perception anymore! The angle between the 2 pictures (from either eye) is too small. After that our brain "calculates" distances by clues like size, shadows, overlapping, markings etc., which is all clearly visible on a computer screen!
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I won't argue that RL perception is much better than any computer screen - but being able to tell friend from foe, laser ranged distance and plane type in a split second in a massive furball enviroment, while pulling G's etc. is NOT what it was (is) in RL! ID'ing was part of the "game" - it's not in AH! Planes that had similar shape were sometimes hard to distinguish - not so in AH.
I've been flying IL2 in a complete icon-less enviroment for some months now - while this is the other extreme (and also not always realistic in some aspects) I don't wanna miss the immersion. With friendly collision and fire on it adds a whole level to gameplay! You have to learn the shapes of planes to ID them quickly - communcation gets much more important. And dogfights get more interesting - disenganging becomes a valid tactic - even with not-the-fastest-plane (e.g. La7) - camouflage, clouds and the sun (!!!) become your best friends. Having the sun in your back when you attack is a IMMENSE advantage!
In AH I wouldn't go as far as NO icons (free for all arena, no historical planesets) but reduce the neon signs to a bearable minimum. Neutral icon at longer range (4k) - then nationality - then planetype - relative closure and maybe ranges in 100 yard steps (makes gunnery less dependeble on the numbers your rangefinder tells you).
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PEOPLE HERE Rely on Those big fluffy colored Neon Placards hanging over the enemies aircraft.
thats total crap i only glance at it every now and again to see how far they are then i go back to aiming at the TARGET (if you aim at the neon ow are you gonna hit?)
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Originally posted by Kirin
JAB, beyond 10 meters stereoscopic vision does not play a role for depth perception anymore! The angle between the 2 pictures (from either eye) is too small. After that our brain "calculates" distances by clues like size, shadows, overlapping, markings etc., which is all clearly visible on a computer screen!
While it is true the stereoscopic vision is much more limited at greater distances, I can assure you its much farther than 10 meters (especially for larger complex objects), and keep in mine stereo vision isnt just the "angles" of our eyes, its also the fact that I see a little of the left side with my left eye, but none of it with my right eye, and occulsion etc (much as you indicate, but more so that you statement implies is because we have TWO different images to compare, unlike the monitor which has only one)
The real issue however also is one of resolution.
Please lets look at a P-51 from between 1.2 and 2.3 distance....yeah
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ALF, it's all about angles and 2 different pictures to compare (different angles give different pictures). Object size doesent really matter - imagine standing 10km away from Mt. Killimandscharo (spelling? LOL) - although it will fill a good proportion of your view you won't see it 3-dimensional - the 2 pictures from your eyes will be (almost) identical (your eyes fixed to "infinity" thus paralell view lines). OTH, imagine a pin 50cm away from your eyes. The stereoscopic effect does not come from seeing different sides of the object - but acutally seeing it in different positions (close one eye after the other). We don't see our world (above 10 metres or so) 3-dimensional in terms of stereoscopic but using clues we learned: e.g. 2 cars --> the smaller one is farther (if we ID them as aprox. same model), tree blocking LOS to a house --> tree is in front of house. That can cause confusion sometimes when things don't look like we learned em - extensively used in art as so called optical illusions (term?): 2 identically tall people drawn near 2 oblique lines --> our brains "thinks" perspective: we see the 2 people differ in size (try to find the picture).
A good hint are stereoscopic glasses for computer games. Let's take "MIG alley" for expample (one of the few sims the glasses really work worth playing). In 3D mode you get the impression looking into a box (monitor) with toy planes flying around because you get a (neat) 3D effect but it's not how we see the outside world thus the "box-impression".
Or real life example: ReVi gunsight in (WW2) fighters. The sight is reflected in a way that your eyes fix to infinity --> that trick makes it possible to aim at planes correctly in the first place. Iron sights do not work because your eyes near fixes on it - or infinity fixes on the target --> either one not seen sharply.
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Oedipus is right - in IL2 limited (but historical) setup up no icons work - in AH it wouldn't, unless we'd get a historical setup. In IL2 standard missions (especially VEF, to an extend IOW) you're right that the formation you run in is highly probable to be enemy but there is a online arena called DiD (Dead is Dead) which features a huge battlefield with lost of AI - there you cannot be sure if the formation you run in is enemy or not. And still icons are OFF and it works. And even when dogfights are hot, with communication and custom skins maybe, you can coordinate quite well. I've never experienced friendly kill 'till now (collision yes - when one gets tgt fixated) - that might be connected to the fact that I fly a mission format that sponsors fly to LIVE but still much less friendly fire than killshooter in AH!
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So now please explain to me about how Im going to get all this info an size movement ect from those 6 pixel sploches again?
You certainly arnt going to get a huge difference in a picture form left to right eye of a mountain 10 miles away....but Im talking about an aircraft a few hundred meters away (where different views are a factor....and also about the size of the aircrafts "on screen representation" being inadequate to give any relevant info on the relative movement from those few pixels when they are farther away.