Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: vorticon on November 18, 2002, 09:19:03 PM
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i was just thinking that if we changed a small detail it could make the game more fun.
how about certain towns factories supply a limited amount of certain planes to several bases. if the factory in the town was blown up eventually the bases it supplies will run out of certain planes. and even if the factory isnt blown up everytime a person takes up a plane one less is available at the hanger thus preventing over use of some planes and adding more strategy (if other changes were made) to the game. and by making the factories harder so that they can only be blown up by heavy bombers it makes people use the heavy bombers again. so what do you think?
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AW used to do that for Spitfires.
Now there's an idea :)
palef
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So John Doe, Spitfire fan, logs on and dicovers that his $15.00 doesn't allow him to fly his favorite aircraft while Jane Doe, Bf109 fan, doesn't have to worry about it?
Gee, that sounds like a great idea.:rolleyes:
That is only a tool for the plane Nazis (no inference to the real Nazis, but rather the soup Nazi) to try to force people to fly planes they deem "acceptable".
Bunch of marlarky.
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I like the idea but would like it to include all plane makes in porportion to which plane is flown the most. So there would be one less La7. Sound good to me.
Or have several factories that make different planes. Or a large city type of place with several factories in it each for a certain plane. or vechile type. Or severall cities with certain plane factories contained in them spread out throught out the country. Maybe the factories can be located in HQ.Or a zone HQ like in the pizza map.
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Karnak, who bunched your shorts?
Calling me a Nazi is the most offensive thing anyone could call me or anyone else, even if you try to moderate it by equating it to the Soup Nazi idea I still find it offensive.
Who's forcing anyone to do anything here?
It's a bulletin board discussion group you right-wing reactionary (that was irony in case you missed it).
We're discussing stuff. I welcome your input, and a lot of what you have to say is worthy stuff.
Just because you don't like an idea you don't automatically get granted the right to be truly offensive.
Back off please.
I understand where you are coming from and I would never condone an idea that forces anyone into anything. This is after all a game, no matter how much money we put into it and any game by definition needs rules and guidelines to moderate the actions of the participants. So by definition you have been "forced" to play the AH "game" by someone else's design concepts and rules, which incidentally evolve over time and will continue to evolve as the "game" grows and changes.
This is just a suggestion that Vorticon has come up with, that in my past experience (AW) went some way towards balancing the gameplay for both the Strat fans and the Furball fans, by providing both a meaningful strat target and a way of limiting the "Spit" hordes as I have seen them described. The factories were buried way behind front lines and needed real cooperation to both get to them and kill them. I think they were then only down for 30 minutes.
Now AH isn't AW. I am happy with the design and concepts behind AH and I do not support this change because I want AH to be AW4. The Spit (and someone can correct me on this) tends to average about 10% of the kills during any Tour so maybe we could target the the aircraft that gets about 10-15% of the kills which (again someone feel free to correct me) is the P51D.
But then maybe not. All we can do is suggest ideas. Hitech Creations will implement them if they see fit to. If it doesn't happen I'm not going to whine about it.
I will whine about being collectively included in your description of people supporting this idea being Nazis.
Griego's idea is a good one IMO. It would make it very difficult to completely limit the availability of any aircraft, but would give the strat guys something to really go for.
palef
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Originally posted by palef
Griego's idea is a good one IMO. It would make it very difficult to completely limit the availability of any aircraft, but would give the strat guys something to really go for.
palef
sorry. i'm with karnak. it sucks. and i don't say this is defense of any plane, even tho i fly ponys, spits and la7's. i disagree with buffs being able to affect detrimentally other individual's "fun", removing planes has absolutely zero, zip, nada affect on the outcome of the hamstard wars. and when one side is in the reset bucket, it'll hurt even more.
just give buffs targets that are high in points but have very little efect on what is basically a tactical game. i mean isn't it all about blowing stuff up?
how about making them factories "bomber" factories? removing the other side's ability to use bombers? one b-17 factory, one lanc factory, ummm one a20 factory, one b26 factory etc etc so on and so fourth? this way bomber dudes can hurt each other like fighter dudes hurt other fighter dudes?
come to think of it, that's brillant!! my twist on it i mean. i mean look!!! if bombers are gonna be hitting bomber factories, i highly doubt fighters would bother to intercept, so you bomber guys can have bomber wars.
hmmm. how about it?
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come to think of it, that's brillant!! my twist on it i mean. i mean look!!! if bombers are gonna be hitting bomber factories, i highly doubt fighters would bother to intercept, so you bomber guys can have bomber wars.
hmmm. how about it? [/B]
You evil little man :)
I like it!
Good reply Shane
palef
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no one will have to worry about not being able to fly what they want its just that sometimes they will have to up from a different base (probably a problem on large maps) to use it. this will come in very usefull once we get the komet as when you go to bomb it you wont have 15 komets suddenly taking off on you. of course different planes willl be made in different cities. the idea is just to help stop people whining about bishes using only spits etc etc (just an example) and ads some strat people get to use bombers again. and the factories will be producing everthing...from tanks to bombers.
of course as this is a suggestion in a discussion board i dont just want yeahs and neahs i want good ideas to make it better and if you think it just stinks tell me how i can refine it until it is good
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who cares what people fly? i'm a little more concerned about *how* people fly.
how about this? every plane except those in top 4 useage should be slightly perked (leaving eny and obj values as is)... i mean we all know this game is perkie driven, so perking even a mere 202 at 1 perk will make it more desireable, right? this way those who chose to not fly the freebie top 4 can rightly feel smugly superior about their ride of choice.
empower the plane-nazi's!!!
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LOL... more fluff guy ideas to limit the fighter guys fun.. So long as it is a free for all arena, then limiting anything for the country that won't fly enough fluffs is... silly. Why make it even more attractive to move to the country that has the most numbers? After all.... isn't fluffing a direct relationship of percentages? aren't there only a small percentage of the mouse weilders? the country with excess numbers allways has a lot more fluff tards to spare. What would be so fun about the largest (number wise) country with the highest percentage of lameos having the best planes? Like perk gone wild.
You want more variety that people can enjoy? don't do it by making things even more lopsided and unfun... make it by carving out the lower quarter or so of the hideous and unfun pizza map and making that part an early war only area of the map.
lazs
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"making that part an early war only area of the map"
Ok. As long as there's a landing gear crank factory that I can bomb. Then try flying your poofy powder blue F4F with the gear down....
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Originally posted by lazs2
the country with excess numbers allways has a lot more fluff tards to spare.
Still eternally vigilant and eternally ready to blame your problems -- real or imagined -- on the bomber pilots, I see, Lasz. Never mind that the country with excessive numbers also has a lot more twit suicide jabos ready to hose fields.
You know, there's a simple solution to the issue of bombing having a real and measurable strategic effect -- create a number of aircraft factories in the countries; every time an aircraft factory is destroyed, a fighter is randomly selected from the planeset, and that plane becomes unavailable for Lasz to fly. That way, the bomber pilots get to feel that their actions are having a measurable effect, and Lasz gets confirmation that the bomber pilots are out to personally ruin his fun. :D
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The gear goes up on the f4f?
lazs
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I proposed a similar idea a while back. The factories are not necessarily Buff targets. Hell, Jabo's do the job of Buffs now anyway. So let's not make this another Buff Vs. Fighter thread.
The idea is to add challenge to the game. Karnak complains that this violates a persons right to fly what they want. Pick some of the other online games out there. You don't get everything you want, all the time. That's the challenge for a person to overcome. I used to play Ultima Online. I like a certain type of armor. If I got Killed, lost my armor, and did not have the money to purchase a replacement, guess what....I did not get that armor. I used something else. I was forced to adapt. It made the game that much more interesting.
So let's say there are 12 factories per country. Now, one gets bombed...A random vehicle (Fighter, Bomber, GV) is taken out of the set for 30 minutes.
Is it so tragic if Lazs loses his FM2 for 30 minutes? (Not singling you out Lazs, just an example.) The FM2 is my ride of choice now as well. WHat would I do? Go to the F4F, or the F6F.
Regardless, it allows you the chance for some diversity in the game.
This is not an idea for Buffs. This is an idea for everyone seeking a little more of a challenge.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
You don't get everything you want, all the time. That's the challenge for a person to overcome. I used to play Ultima Online. I like a certain type of armor. If I got Killed, lost my armor, and did not have the money to purchase a replacement, guess what....I did not get that armor. I used something else. I was forced to adapt. It made the game that much more interesting.
apples and oranges. *You* got yourself killed so *you* lost your armor.
would you have liked the idea of some raiding party attacking a forge in the rear lines making *your* armor disappear or your weapons less effective when you're miles away from that "factory" engaged in a heated battle with some Orcs?
didn't think so.
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I'm sorry to say, Shane, I would.
That's the God's honest truth.
I enjoy a challenge. I enjoy diversity.
In contrast, you say it is my fault for getting killed. You're correct. (You sound like you used to play UO.)
But in AH, if the factories are so important, then it would require pilots to make an active effort to defend them. So losing a factory, and thereby your favorite ride, would be you and your teammates fault.
This is what it all comes down to folks. You have 2 camps in this game. No one better than the other. You have those who want to hop in a plane, fly, kill, die, repeat.
The other camp is interested in Strategy, Tactics (Not reserved for ACM) and immersion beyond that of the cockpit.
There's no way in my mind, these 2 factions will ever see eye to eye.
We had a similar problem in Ultima Online, and this may be a warning to AH. You had 2 camps there. Those who wanted to decorate their houses, and hunt animals with no chance of being Player Killed, and those that wanted the balls out thrill of fighting, losing it all, or wining it all.
UO made 2 servers. One never allowed Player Vs. Player combat. The other was totally inhabited by Super PLayer Killers. There was no middle ground.
Their subscriptions plummeted. I sold my account on E-bay after 4 years of playing.
Tread Lightly, HTC.
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muck... the difference is that some element of the game that you are not interested in (fluffs) can easily take away yours (and many others) choices in a single stroke and they can do it with no more talent than it takes to start up solitare. Worse... your only defense against this intrusion is to play their game which you chose to igniore in the first place..
no matter how you cut it... it is simply fluffers coming up with ideas to force people to play with them.... My plane choices would rarely be limited by such actions but.... a good percentage of fighter only guys would log long before I was affected (why close the -1a or Fm2 factory?)... you think night time causes people to log off ? imagine when they can't have the only plane that they think they have a fighting chance in?
lazs
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Originally posted by palef
AW used to do that for Spitfires.
Now there's an idea :)
palef
Yep and it worked fine, and (despite laz2's opinion on such things)it worked fine for years. There is still quite a difference between a tried and tested idea (a fact) and an opinion, though some will try very hard to convince you otherwise.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
This is not an idea for Buffs. This is an idea for everyone seeking a little more of a challenge.
I bet Ripsnort, Fariz, etal would enjoy having other targets as well for, another of laz2's favorites, missions (but then we wouldn't have missions either if up to him). :)
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Originally posted by lazs2
muck... the difference is that some element of the game that you are not interested in (fluffs) can easily take away yours (and many others) choices in a single stroke and they can do it with no more talent than it takes to start up solitare. Worse... your only defense against this intrusion is to play their game which you chose to igniore in the first place..
no matter how you cut it... it is simply fluffers coming up with ideas to force people to play with them.... My plane choices would rarely be limited by such actions but.... a good percentage of fighter only guys would log long before I was affected (why close the -1a or Fm2 factory?)... you think night time causes people to log off ? imagine when they can't have the only plane that they think they have a fighting chance in?
lazs
Once again, Lazs, I disagree. Of course, You disagree in a much more colorful and derogatory way than I do, but I respect your opinion none the less.
Imagine for a moment, there were no heavy bombers in this game. Now imagine the idea put forward in this thread was implimented. You would see Jabo's bombing the factories due to the lack of heavies. Would you still be against the idea?
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Originally posted by Turbot
I bet Ripsnort, Fariz, etal would enjoy having other targets as well for another of laz2's favorites, missions (but then we wouldn't have missions either if up to him :) ).
From what I gathered over my time here, the perfect game for Lazs would be:
15 bases within 3 Miles of each other, all on top of 20K mountains, with no bombers, no gvs, No bombs, indestructable fields. Translation: WWII Quake.
I wonder if he'd want "Power Ups" and shields as well? (Scary part is, I'm dead serious)
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Originally posted by Shane
apples and oranges. *You* got yourself killed so *you* lost your armor.
would you have liked the idea of some raiding party attacking a forge in the rear lines making *your* armor disappear or your weapons less effective when you're miles away from that "factory" engaged in a heated battle with some Orcs?
I'm sorry, but it's your analogy that doesn't work. A proper one would be going out, fighting a bunch of battles, and coming back to find that the weapons stores are running low on arrows, and won't sell you as many as you want to fill your quiver, because a raid on the fletchers' village killed most of the fletchers, and there aren't enough arrows to go around for all the people that want them. Or going out to fight, getting killed, resurrect naked in your home, and then be unable to buy the suit of armor you want to replace the one you lost, because the armorers' village was raided.
When someone destroys the La-7 factory, the La-7 your flying doesn't magically vanish beneath you -- you can still fly, and fight, and land and rearm then take off again, but if you get shot down, you lose your plane, and may not get a new one.
The one hole with this is that there is no mechanism for fixing a plane that you bring back damaged. Perhaps a mechanism via the rearm pad where for each 30 seconds you stay on the pad, one red-tagged damage item is repaired, and if you have no red-tagged damage, 30 seconds repairs all the fractional damage on your plane. Or just allow you to take off in the same plane type you brought back if you land or ditch your plane at a field, regardless of the availability of that plane type. That would give people an incentive to try to drag damaged planes back home, knowing that if they can get it home, they can keep flying it, but if they crash or bail, they might not be able to get one.
Maybe a modified form of aircraft availability would be more viable. Set each airfield up with a 'stock level' based on the field size -- 5 for small fields, 10 for medium fields, 15 for large fields -- and then drive aircraft availability off of usage. In the rear areas of each country are a number of aircraft factories. Under normal conditions, planes are supplied to fields as fast as they are requested, but when a factory is destroyed, a random plane from the planeset is selected, and that plane is put on allocation -- one plane per minute is delivered to each field, up to the 'stock limit' of the field. If the same plane is randomly picked more than once, the allocation interval increases -- one every two minutes, every three minutes, etc.
Tying the 'stock limit' to the number of functioning hangars at a field would provide a mechanism to produce incremental damage to the availability of aircraft, but I think that it would overly bias the ability for a country to defend or attack if their rear area gets overrun -- when an enemy country can milkrun to keep factories bombed flat, letting them further beat down plane availability allows them to steamroller fields much faster. Some people might regard this as a good thing, but I suspect that it would result in many more people logging in disgust once their rear areas got overrun and damage to their fields kept them from mounting defenses.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
From what I gathered over my time here, the perfect game for Lazs would be:
15 bases within 3 Miles of each other, all on top of 20K mountains, with no bombers, no gvs, No bombs, indestructable fields. Translation: WWII Quake.
I wonder if he'd want "Power Ups" and shields as well? (Scary part is, I'm dead serious)
You don't know Lazs as well as you think you do.
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muck... yes I would still be against the idea.. it makes a lopsided game even more so and forces a certain type of gameplay that is of little interest to people who can only play an hour or two at a time. Like I said... it probly wouldn't affect me personally since I fly mediocre planes mostly in any case but why should I advocate lopsided gameplay?
lazs
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muck... if the fluffers had large cities to carpet bomb and.... killing said cities would "win the war" then.... jabos would have little effect on said cities... it would take a fluff to get the job done. If a person cared not about winning the war he could simply ignore that aspect and still have a good time without some pasty faced mouse weilder who has been online for 10 hours straight, ruining some aspect or another of his game. If... OTOH, fighters wanted to participate in the "winning" of the war they could up and try to stop the fluffs. Everyone would have a realistic role with as little gamyness as possible even considering the inherant gamyness of fluffs... No one would be impacting the others game in a lopsided manner.
It would be fair and fun for all... but somehow... I don't think that is what you are after.
lazs
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I'm scratching my head here, Shiva....but I think I like your idea.
We actually talked about this before.
I love the rearm-repair thing. I think this would also help solve our suicide Jabo Problem.
If a pilot knows he may not be able to get his ride of choice back if he plows into a hangar, he's much more inclined to bring the plane home...or at least try to.
I hate to say it, but I doubt you'll ever see a system like this implimented.
I'm in favor of anything that represents a challenge, creates immersion, and brings AH one step closer to the real thing.
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Ya know...I find myself agreeing with Shiva on his idea. It's practical, it's useful, and it adds immersion to the game.
As wacky as it sounds, it adds raelism as well. Planes didn't magically appear for you to use...they had the be built and shipped. If the planes couldn't be built, the planes couldn't be shipped. So let's say a Spit factory was destroyed, but everyone from the country/field kept using and destroying Spitfires. Eventually the supply of planes would run out and the Spits couldn't be used until the factory cuold be rebuilt. Am I right, Shiva?
To me, this is not a way for the buff pilots to make everyone play their way. A factory destroyed would not instantly forbid use of a plane...it would stop shipment and allow the supply to run out. Buffers aren't forcing someone to play thier way, they are affecting the war like they are supposed to. With the bombsight as it is and the damage set so high, a single lone buffer could not destroy a factory on its own. It would require a hugh formation to carpet bomb the factory. So much for the single no-talant fluffer runing the fun for everyone.
Another thing we could implament is that airfields must rely on the trains and trucks to deliver the planes to the fields, so the supply is constantly running out. If you destroy a train, a shipment doesn't arrive. This would promote hunting the trains and trucks as well. However, this would mean that fighters could still takeoff without the hangers, but would you risk a limited supply of fighters if the factory is destroyed?
I never understood how a single "fluffer" could ruin the fun of "everyone" when it's usually jabos and fighters that destroy hangers and factories. :confused:
Oh well...great idea Shiva!
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Having a setup that allows bad pilots dying to hurt the availability for everyone else is a bad idea. Any kind of plane limitations should be done on a per-user basis. (i.e. you have x la7's available, if you die you lose one, if you run out before they rebuild, you gotta pay a perk price, or move onto a different plane)
Instead of a per-field or per-country hangar, it should be per-user.
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I cast a vote for a Big huge pizza factory in the center of the pizza map if the buffs destroy it then the Pizza map gets taken outta rotation for a month....Or three...
Something liike that?
T0J0
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Good Point, Innominate.
We have enough problems with spies as it is. With a setup like the one proposed, all I have to do is set up a second account, go to the enemy field I want to sabotage, and lawndart all the hot-rides. Boom...no more late war planes for the enemy.
Of course, I would not do this, but you KNOW someone would...
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This is why there was only 1 plane factory in AW. Me? I'd love to see an Ostwind factory.
(Or maybe they could make a fluffer factory for laz to attck.)
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muckmaw that is a very good point...(at least someone is sticking to the point of the post rather than pointing out flaws)
lets say we make all late war planes have a decent number of perks (i dont know what number) and if you suicide your plane by lawn darting within 3 hours of switching sides you lose DOUBLE the amount of perks you payed for it. that way it will discourage people from doing it because they will lose there perks AND they wont have enough perks left (hopefully) to lawndart them all. there will be several factories producing hte planes at a set rate.
hopefully the idea will appeal to both classes because it gives something for the stratters to do and for the other class ( the other class can battle it out while protecting the factories)
you will have no way of knowing what the factory is producing and there should be occasional car factories so you sometimes accidently waste your time blowing some civilian cars
how does that sound?
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Originally posted by Karnak
So John Doe, Spitfire fan, logs on and dicovers that his $15.00 doesn't allow him to fly his favorite aircraft while Jane Doe, Bf109 fan, doesn't have to worry about it?
Gee, that sounds like a great idea.:rolleyes:
That is only a tool for the plane Nazis (no inference to the real Nazis, but rather the soup Nazi) to try to force people to fly planes they deem "acceptable".
Bunch of marlarky.
In AW if you wanted to cut down on the Az and Bz hordes, you just had to take out the Spitfire factory. Within a few minutes of it being destroyed, you'd see the majority of Az and Bzlanders log because they couldn't fly their beloved Dweebfire.
Ack-Ack
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Having a setup that allows bad pilots dying to hurt the availability for everyone else is a bad idea
so most of the bad pilots fly the same planes. hopefully it 'COULD' improve the already steep learning curve. you either live or die and if you die eventually you wont be able to fly that plane so you better learn to live.
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This goes beyond my creative abilities, Vorticon.
I'm not sure how this could play out.
Here's the pro's I like:
Factories produce random A/C, once Detroyed, that A/C SUPPLY to field in supply zone cut off until factory rebuild.
Once Factory dead, Each A/C at each field has a set inventory.
Once Depleted, these A/C can no longer fly from these fields.
Re-arm pads also become Repair pads. (Hell, make 'em taxi to the hangar for repairs, Dammit.
Pilots will be encouraged to bring their rides home, and suicide jabos will be cut down to the weakest A/C.
So, the question is, do we go for a A/C inventory limit per pilot? Screw it...how about 1! Crash it, fly something else.
Or do we go with a set number of A/C per type, per field, for the entire country. (I don't think we can prevent abuse here so I'm more for option one.)
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It all boils down to.... fluffers want to affect the availability of fighters. They know, or feel they know, that they are nothing if they can't affect fighters. If more fluffers are up and less choice is available for those who fly fighters the net result will be a loss of players. Besides... it's gamey... no country ever lost the ability to supply a certain type of ac.
If you want to have something for the fluffers to do without them ruining the game then you better think historic... think large cities and carpet bombing. Why for we got 1 guy controling what should take 30 anyway?
And... what is the advantage, for htc and for the players, of seeing more fluffs unless it is simply more fluffs without a correspondingly large exodus of those who fly fighters. You simply can't ignore the last in your quest to force people to play with you.
lazs
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Originally posted by muckmaw
UO made 2 servers. One never allowed Player Vs. Player combat. The other was totally inhabited by Super PLayer Killers. There was no middle ground.
now this is where you're even more off base, as AH is full of people in the middle ground. there are less "pure" strat/furs than there are those who like and do a little bit of everything.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Imagine for a moment, there were no heavy bombers in this game. Now imagine the idea put forward in this thread was implimented. You would see Jabo's bombing the factories due to the lack of heavies. Would you still be against the idea?
yes i would.
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Originally posted by lazs2
It all boils down to.... fluffers want to affect the availability of fighters. They know, or feel they know, that they are nothing if they can't affect fighters.
Not so. I cannot speak for everyone, but when I fly bombers, my only interest is upsetting the balance of the war in favor of my country. If that means eliminating FH's that are launching an unending stream of Jabos against an important field, then yes, I'm going after the hangars to take the pressure off my field.
If more fluffers are up and less choice is available for those who fly fighters the net result will be a loss of players. Besides... it's gamey... no country ever lost the ability to supply a certain type of ac.
Also not 100% correct. In the waning years of WWII, the bombing of Aircraft production facilities slowed, and in some intances eliminated the production of Aircraft in general, including specific Aircraft. (Think ME-262). Now, gamey is a country having an unlimited supply of aircraft, instant pilot resurrection, etc. That's gamey, but this is a game, and certain concessions are necessary. Would you rather lose a factors that produces ball bearings, and fly gliders for the rest of the night?
If you want to have something for the fluffers to do without them ruining the game then you better think historic... think large cities and carpet bombing. Why for we got 1 guy controling what should take 30 anyway?
Alright, let's carpet bomb cities. No problem. How does it affect the overall outcome of the war? The Strat model is flawed, so we need something else.
And... what is the advantage, for htc and for the players, of seeing more fluffs unless it is simply more fluffs without a correspondingly large exodus of those who fly fighters. You simply can't ignore the last in your quest to force people to play with you.
lazs
I don't know, Lazs...diversity? A change of pace. Not everyone flys fighters 24/7. If we did it your way, there would be nothing but fighters. No resets, No bombers, No CVs, No GVs., etc....
Pretty damn boring after a while. Dare I say everyone enjoys a little diversity. I've spent just as much time in a fighter this tour as a bomber. I like diversity. I love a challenge. I hate the same old same, day in day out. I get enough of that at work.
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Originally posted by vorticon
i was just thinking that if we changed a small detail it could make the game more fun.
It's a good idea but limiting plane choices isn't really going to fly. How about making this a supplies war and increase the value of factories, produce freighters and shipping targets that must dock on a regular basis to keep a country oversupplied so that x reduction in supplies yields less productive factories, ultimately reduced numbers of AC and vehicles, etc?
How about some of the GV bases allowing some of the lesser used AC, like SBDs and Vals to up there? Increase their use and add a dimension of scout bombing to the GV bases. Vals and SBDs would thus fill the role of Army Cooperation planes. Both lift off on fairly short runways.
I also like the idea of reducing the number of AC a country has, as opposed to eliminating any model.
Any chance of seeing naval shipyards to bomb soon so the naval effectiveness of a nation is reduced?
Sakai
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It all boils down to whether of not the Mission Arena solves the problem.
Then everyone is happy.
As Shane pointed out, there are folks who go both ways....errr...Strat and Furball.
Hell, when I don't have much time, I up and look for the nearest fight possible.
So if the mission arena is a success, The Main will be for the 'Quake" style Fighters, and those looking for a quick fix, while the mission arena will suit those more Strat minded with more time on their hands.
It's unfortunate that this will not be available in 1.11.
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Originally posted by Shiva
blahblahpowerupsblahblahblahf lythewayiwantyoublahblahblahm akeitharderonthesideatadisadv antageblahblahblah
here's a novel idea for all you creative geniuses... get together and build your own flight sim and fill it up with all these ideas.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
UO made 2 servers. One never allowed Player Vs. Player combat. The other was totally inhabited by Super PLayer Killers. There was no middle ground.
You're 100% right, that is what killed the game.(Or rather, what eliminated it's being fun, UO still survives because of various lucky decisions they made involving in-game property)
In every game you have two groups of people. Those who want to do whatever they want, and those who want to have an effect on the "world", and those in it.
Both groups individually are stuck up, arrogant, and make for a very bad game. What works is when you get the two groups intermixed, working with and against each other.
I've only seen it successfully pulled off a few times, and it rarely holds. It's like trying to mix oil and water.
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It's a good idea but limiting plane choices isn't really going to fly
it wont. planes will be slightly limited in amount that can be up at a feild but remember new planes will be coming in every 10-20 minutes as long as the factory is up. as son as the factory goes down planes at the bases it supplies will deplete (just like in real life)
muckmaw you have boiled the idea down to the basic elements but planes wont be able to be repaired in flight only after you land then any damage you have on you will be repaired before anyone else can take it up (repair times taking 1-5minutes depending on damage)
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Originally posted by vorticon
muckmaw you have boiled the idea down to the basic elements but planes wont be able to be repaired in flight only after you land then any damage you have on you will be repaired before anyone else can take it up (repair times taking 1-5minutes depending on damage)
If nothing else is implimeted from this post, I think this is one of the best ideas. It's not gamey, and allows pilots who are so inclined, to rack up a hell of a streak.
The only thing I would want is that it be necessary to taxi to a working FH in order to get repairs done.
But on a side note, has HT ever implimented a major change that came directly from a BBS suggestion?
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MHO to Karnak's post.
Well if you know that you are paying $15 a month for a simulation ,and a cetain destroyed factory limits your fav plane.. so be it.
Unless this is truely a quake game now.
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Originally posted by SunKing
Well if you know that you are paying $15 a month for a simulation ,and a cetain destroyed factory limits your fav plane.. so be it.
:rolleyes:
maybe it's supposed to be a *simulation* of A...I...R...C...O...M...B...A ...T....
let's see, maybe the name of the game gives it away, let's break it down...
Aces... someone skilled at flying and shooting down other planes
High... above ground...not at ground level...boozed/drugged up
hmmm what ya think? it's not a "war simulation" per se, it's an air combat, not flight, simulation, some will call it a game - it's that, too.
people who make the game *all* about the hamstard wheel of capture the flag, need to refocus a bit, maybe? there are many aspects to this game, i think the primary appeal is the ability to harken back to the bygone age of prop plane combat, this in general means fighters, altho' there are many enamored with bombers, ships, gv's and what have you, some of which have been put in this game to spice up the already varied planeset. nothing wrong with giving bombers targets that earn them points, but i don't like the idea of them being able to dramatically affect AIR COMBAT - the "Aces High" aspect.
the capture the flag aspect is there to provide a little focus for the main goal of air combat, not the other way around.
hmmmm?
there's always ww2OL for you "war simmers."
just give bombers nice big targets that earn them bomber rank and points, but doesn't impact *my* ability to fly whatever i want, when and wherever i want in the MA.
enjoy the online AI comba.... errrr mission arena.
:)
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Names a name. Obviously having 'Aces High' isn't the creators only goal or he wouldn't have implimented the ground war or the hours spent on creating a strat system.
You fellows that only want instant furballs crack me up. You get all upset over what the simmers want in this game yet you shove it down their throats about how you want this game and how they should fly ie: IL2 with 100+ players furball madness.
I enjoy both types of play and I'm sure the majority does to, or we wouldn't have senarios, historic squads ect.
Shane your're a good laugh. Have fun worrying about those stats and only flying the la7 and Stang. God forbid you fly something that isn't the fastest.
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Originally posted by SunKing
Shane your're a good laugh. Have fun worrying about those stats and only flying the la7 and Stang. God forbid you fly something that isn't the fastest.
i do play both ways. i avoid big furballs like the plague, tho' fps issues. did my time in other planes. i fly what i like an dthat best suits my style. what lemming squad are you from again? ever fly into a sector without any other greenies around, away from your own ack safety net?
come show me how to fly in the DA sometime.
and, pssst... i could care less for stats as any sort of donut tape.
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"and, pssst... i could care less for stats as any sort of donut tape"
Sure guy, any player under ranked under 200 flying all score
categorizes is constantly watching their Rank. You fool no one.
"what lemming squad are you from again? ever fly into a sector without any other greenies around, away from your own ack safety net? "
Very sad attack, you know what squad I am in and you know what respected players are in it, stick to arguing the new players in the MA, its what you do best.
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Originally posted by SunKing
"and, pssst... i could care less for stats as any sort of donut tape"
Sure guy, any player under ranked under 200 flying all score
categorizes is constantly watching their Rank. You fool no one.
"what lemming squad are you from again? ever fly into a sector without any other greenies around, away from your own ack safety net? "
Very sad attack, you know what squad I am in and you know what respected players are in it, stick to arguing the new players in the MA, its what you do best.
actually i only realized it when i check your info on the side bar. 332nd mongrels... if they're red, they chew toys. :)
you have no idea why i rank where i do, do you? or why i even bother - trust me, you'd not get it.
nor might you realize how little effort it takes to get in the top 200 - it's not hard. few buffs runs, few goofiness with gv's , toss in a base capture or 2 via goon or m3...
not hard to jabo well, either.
so maybe we can infer that since *you* don't seem to care about stats, then maybe you're not pulling your weight in the MA? you one of them furballer dweebs who does nothing but fly fighters???
shrug.... rank means nothing except ability to control the cv... certain stats are fun to throw out and bait stat weenies with, tho'
:)
i take it you have an inside line on HTC's business strategy and stuff? not saying i do, but i am saying this game is primarily focused (and was designed) around "air combat." might that change, neh, not too much. the MA in no way simulates "war". it's merely a game with various aspects, some more relevant than others.
you wanna call it "quake." i'll call it a "hamstard wheel of capture the flag."
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Originally posted by SunKing
Very sad attack, you know what squad I am in and you know what respected players are in it, stick to arguing the new players in the MA, its what you do best.
If I'm not mistaken, Shane is commonly seen in the CT flying whatever planes are there, P40Bs, etc. He doesn't run from any fight that I have seen, under any circumstance. He may have, but I have never seen it.
He's a good stick, got to give him that.
Sakai
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muck... I don't think you get it.. no.. I know you don't get it. Look at the numbers during nitetime.. nite reduces the fitghing and players... look at the pizza map... it reduces fites and player base... look at the ct... it reduces choice and player base to allmost nothing.
Now... you want to implement more things that will affect fitghters (the vast majority of the player base) by the allmost skilless efforts (immunity to boredom is not a skill) of a very few players.. Why? so that the very few players who lack the skills or have some special interest... can be noticed? can be part of the picture? diversity? more like affermative action. In this case tho the backlash hits HTC in the pocket book.
The "missun" arena is the solution... maybe.. I will not miss the 10 or so "missun dudz" and the core of fluffers who will leave to go there. I believe that it will, like the ct, be very popular for a month, more or less and then have about the same numbers as the ct and the same makup of malcontent players who feel that they have special skills that are not being showcased in the MA. I have allways been thankful, although admittedly a little gleefuly, that the ct exists to siphon off the worst of the 'axis vs allied' no choice crowd. Hopefull, the missun arena will siphon off the worst of the gangbangers and capture the flag types.
lazs
lazs
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Originally posted by Sakai
If I'm not mistaken, Shane is commonly seen in the CT flying whatever planes are there, P40Bs, etc. He doesn't run from any fight that I have seen, under any circumstance. He may have, but I have never seen it.
He's a good stick, got to give him that.
Sakai
He is.
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Originally posted by Sakai
He doesn't run from any fight that I have seen, under any circumstance. He may have, but I have never seen it.
Sakai
if i have a few kills and no/low ammo i miiiiigghhhhht start bugging out for home, if it's close enough, and no one left to shoot down or 2-3 coming my way.
then again i'm just as likely to stick around and see about working in some auger kills if possible.
but yeah, in general i'm looking *for* a fight, regardless of the situation, not looking to avoid one, especially when it's 1 v1 or 1 v 2... 3+ and i start to :rolleyes: followed by :mad:
:D
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Originally posted by texace
As wacky as it sounds, it adds raelism as well. Planes didn't magically appear for you to use...they had the be built and shipped. If the planes couldn't be built, the planes couldn't be shipped. So let's say a Spit factory was destroyed, but everyone from the country/field kept using and destroying Spitfires. Eventually the supply of planes would run out and the Spits couldn't be used until the factory cuold be rebuilt. Am I right, Shiva?
Not quite. Destroying a single site, no matter how big, shouldn't cut off supplies of a plane type absolutely. Look at how Germany dispersed its aircraft production during the war so that, despite the Allied bombing effort, aircraft production was higher at the end of the war than it was at the beginning. And there are some fundamental problems with the way that the 'game' of AH works that would prevent strategic effects from being implemented in a reasonable way. For example, if you capture an airfield behind the enemy 'front line', there is no reasonable way to expect that, in reality, you would be able to get enough fuel and ordnance into the base to be able to support full-on air ops there -- but AH runs the supplies in invisibly.
Also, AH doesn't model the shipment of supplies, except for the truck/rail convoys that rebuild fields and strat targets -- and implementing a functional, destroyable supply model would be a real pain, both for HTC to get it set up and working, and for terrain designers, who would have to build supply routes for every possible combination of fields a country might have. Not a practical solution
So what I suggested uses destroying a factory as a simulation of destroying both production and delivery. When production is at full capacity, you're able to conduct air ops as recklessly as you choose -- launch fifty Spit9s at once, get them vulched on the apron, and do it again and again until the vulchers run out of ammo, and there will still be Spit9s available. But when a factory is destroyed, the production/delivery of a plane type has been disrupted; the airfields only get a slow resupply of that plane type, so using them up too fast can run you out of that plane type at a field.
With a limited number of destroyable vehicle factories, terrain designers can control how much disruption that strategic bombing can cause; with some seventy different planes, vehicles, and boats in the set, having, say, five factories as strat targets isn't going to allow a country to close off fighter ops in an enemy country by destroying all the factories. And the random selection of which one gets impaired makes it more of a crapshoot for the attacker if they're trying for a specific result -- having availability of Me262s or Ar234s drop to 1 per minute after the first 5/10/15 (depending on field size) isn't going to limit a country much, but having Osties go on allocation would really put a crimp in the eternal-respawn GV defense.
Now, it's possible that a country could destroy five factory sites, hit the jackpot, and get, a single aircraft's production/delivery whacked back to one plane every five minutes per field, which would cause huge amounts of hate and discontent from the country that got shafted if it were a popular plane like the P-51D, but the odds against that are infinitesimal -- with seventy different vehicles, the odds of just double-tapping one vehicle type with all five factories destroyed is about 1 in 500, and about 1 in 5,000 with only two factories destroyed.
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shiva you just sughgested exaactly what i meant i just didnt clarifly it. (im glad SOMEONE is staying ON topic) i meant there would be about 3 factory sites supplying about 4 different planes each (the further away the supply site is the longer it will take for planes to get there) each facotry site having one facotry per plane it makes.
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BUMP
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so... what you advocates are saying is that some guy who plays for an hour or two and has a life.... will log on and for no reason that he had any part in.... be not able to fly say a spit 9 or a la7 yet the enemy skies will be full of em... and...
all this because some no life no skill mouse weilder manged to stay alloft the required amount of hours it took to game a few bombs on some ai building somewhere? Dozens of skilled players effected by the patient but unskilled efforts of one? How is this good gameplay? the country with the largest numbers now has the best planes? good idea to switch out of a losing country eh?
this seems like a perfect idea for the "missun" arena.. everquest in fluffs... Pink age of camelot. afermative action in gaming.
I guess what I am saying is that we are talking about two different things or, more like, two different angles on the same thing... you are talking about a strat element that might be fun for a few players, for the everquest, live online set.. I am talking about the results of that strat. The only results you are interested in is to have something for the unskilled to do to make em feel necessary. I am looking at the overall results and how it affects the majority. sorta like nitetime but worse. Imagine if we had nite for 2 hours at a time when the sunshine factory was bombed and you would have abpout the same results as what you are asking for.
you are not asking to ruin the fun of the 202 or 109f guys... just the fun of the guys who fly the popular planes... 80% or so..
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Originally posted by lazs2
so... what you advocates are saying is that some guy who plays for an hour or two and has a life.... will log on and for no reason that he had any part in.... be not able to fly say a spit 9 or a la7 yet the enemy skies will be full of em... and...
all this because some no life no skill mouse weilder manged to stay alloft the required amount of hours it took to game a few bombs on some ai building somewhere? Dozens of skilled players effected by the patient but unskilled efforts of one? How is this good gameplay? the country with the largest numbers now has the best planes? good idea to switch out of a losing country eh?
All this because someone took the time to up a bomber group -- or, given what I'm hearing about the new strat targets that are coming, several people took the time to up bomber groups -- and flattened a fighter factory. AND the random selection of an aircraft type happened to pick the particular aircraft that this one-hour pilot wanted to fly to disrupt supply of, AND this one-hour pilot tries to take off from a field that is either a) hugely capped by the enemy, so that the defenders have been upping the affected airplane and getting vulched faster than the resupply, or b) was used as the launch base for some mission that needed so many of the affected airplane that it used up all the ready supply. So as a result, this one-hour pilot has to wait a minute for the supply chain to deliver another plane of that type.
Lazs, I'm surprised that your nose isn't crushed flat to your face, the way you jump to conclusions. It's clear that you didn't even bother to read what I wrote past the point where I talk about "destroying both supply and delivery", and assume that what I'm describing cuts off availability of planes at a field. What I described was a mechanism that slows delivery of aircraft, so that if the pilots in a country that lost its factory choose to expend planes rapidly, they won't be able to crash/ditch/bail and instantly re-up forever.
My suggestion would have destruction of a factory cause one ride -- fighter, bomber, vehicle, or boat -- selected randomly to become less available; the factory is producing fewer, or the transport to the fields is slower, so the supply of them isn't infinite all the time; use them up too fast and you can run out until the next one arrives. The bomber pilots don't know, when they destroy a factory, which ride they're going to disrupt. If they're lucky, they'll get P-51Ds or Typhoons or the like; if they're unlucky, they'll get Ar-234s or LVT(A)4s or Bostons. But the country that lost the factory isn't going to see any effect unless there is a big drain on that plane. Each field has a 'ready supply' depending on the field size, and unless the pilots are using the plane faster than they're being replaced -- and a resupply rate of one plane per minute per field (not for the whole country), it's going to take a dedicated effort on the part of your countrymen to exhaust a plane's supply to keep you from getting your precious ride for more than a minute or two. To run out of a plane, it takes two things to happen -- the enemy has to destroy an aircraft factory, and your countrymates have to burn through the supply of the affected plane at the field you're at faster than the resupply ships in new ones.
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For what it's worth Shiva, I really like the idea.
You're not going to convince Lazs of anything aside from his concept of what AH should be, "WWII Quake", so I would not bother trying.
All you'll get for your efforts are insults and closed minded- Arguments.
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LOL... ok... TWO no talent guys have to milkrun a 'factory'... Their big "effort" is ... is what? patience? and what do they affect for their hour of doing basicly nothing? why, they affect the choice of from 0-dozens of players who had no say....
why 0-dozens? because as you say, "random"... if it stops the production of -4 corsairs nobody would notice for weeks.. If it is La7's or spit 9's... it will cause dozens of people to be pissed... 234? who cares... Spit one? ur kidding?
The whole thing sounds allmost sensible (or at least not immediatly nonsensical) until you look at the actual impact and.... more importantly... the actual benifiet... The impact is ruining the game for a lot of folks who had no say and the benifiet is making a couple of otherwise usless folk feel like they are "contributing" Simply a "you can't ignore me" idea.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
why 0-dozens? because as you say, "random"... if it stops the production of -4 corsairs nobody would notice for weeks.. If it is La7's or spit 9's... it will cause dozens of people to be pissed... 234? who cares... Spit one? ur kidding?
You're still not reading what I wrote. Destroying a factory doesn't stop production of a plane, it slows delivery of that plane. Each field has a 'ready launch' capacity that depends on the field size. As long as there are no plane supply disruptions, fields get planes as fast as they're used, as they do now. Disrupt the supply of a plane, and the each field only gets one of that plane per minute. If you and your countrymen aren't taking up that plane that fast -- because you're not trying to up planes on a capped field, or launch more at one time than the field's 'ready launch' capacity, you won't notice a difference. And if you bring your plane back and land, you'll be able to take off in it again, regardless of whether supply of that plane was disrupted. But if you persist in taking off every 30 seconds or so in a plane whose supply is disrupted so you can make contributions to some enemy's vulch streak, then you're going to run out of ready-launch planes of that type, and will have to wait for the next one to be delivered.
So the strategic effect is only going to affect you if you a) insist on trying to get off the ground at a heavily-capped field, or b) try to launch a large-roster mission from a field, and the plane you pick is one whose supply has been disrupted -- neither of which you, by your own admission, are interested in. If all you want to do is play "WWII Deathmatch", you're going to have to be a really inept dweeb to get shot down fast enough after takeoff to be affected by this. Of course, if you are willing to admit here on the board that you're so incompetent a fighter pilot that you do get shot down that fast every time in a furball, then we'll all have a cheap laugh at your expense.
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Originally posted by lazs2
It all boils down to.... fluffers want to affect the availability of fighters. They know, or feel they know, that they are nothing if they can't affect fighters.
Okay, lazs, let's carve it down to its bare core. Bombers exist in AH; they will be used against targets. Bomber pilots aren't going to bother spending half an hour to an hour or more flying across the arena to attack a target if their bombing doesn't affect their country's progress toward winning.
You've got a choice. Either you're going to have to accept the implementation of some mechanism that imposes a more realistic/historical strategic effect on the 'rest of the war' from bombing strategic targets, or the bomber pilots are going to continue flying 'dab here, dab there, dab over there' field-pork runs, which affects your furballing immediately and catastrophically. Setting up some abstract 'destroy these strat targets, reset the map' mechanism isn't going to work; that just screws over the fighter pilots in each country who enjoyed the process of capturing fields to win the war by making everything they enjoyed pointless. Why bother having two hundred fighter pilots on your side capturing fields when ten buff drivers and thirty escorts can reset the map?
So make up your mind. If you can't accept an indirect impairment of your ability to fly any plane anywhere any way you want because of strategic bombing, you will get bomber pilots porking fields directly so that you can't fly the way you want. You want nobody to be able to affect your ability to play the way you want to, no matter how many other people object to having to play within how you want to restrict their behavior. Well, there are more of them than there are of you; you're going to get shafted; your choice is getting it as ten feet of curare-dipped wrought-iron fence wrapped in razor wire, or using lubricant and something less... intrusive.
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no shiva... it is you who is not looking at this fairly... first off..
spending a talentless hour doing nothing (you could do it with atopilot) should be worth... about that... nothing.
next.. you claim that it wouldn't effect me unless I wanted to launch from a vultched field in a plane that just happened to to be the one that the wheel-o-plane availability ball stopped on? basicly... you have zero effect on fighters or the game 90% of the time... You are advocating that you become worthless. How would the unavailability of say a -4 corsair affect people upping from a vultched field? How are you "contributing"? Why would anyuone care to do anything but ignore you if they knew that there was only a 1 in 50 or so chance that you would make the plane they liked unavailable?
OTOH... my idea of large cities that need to be carpet bombed allows you to have historic targets. It allows you to contribute by "winning the war" in fact... it makes you essential to winning the war as the complete destruction of the city is the criteria for the 'win" and only fluffs could accomplish that. Fighters could still take bases to move closer... Strat potatos and building battlers who lusted for that huge "win the war" payoff of 25 whole perk points would be "forced" to both attack enemy fluff formations and escort friendly fluffs...
Now, you read that and tell me which of us is being more fair and realistic. In fact... which idea gives fluffers the more important role? which idea causes less friction between fluffers and fighters and promotes more teamwork (for those so inclined)?
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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No matter how you slice it, Shiva, Lazs is a great stick. I've watched him, studied his moves, and learned alot. My ride of coice is the FM2 because of Lazs.
Personally, I think he is offensive, and obnoxious, but that's simply because we butt heads contantly. I know we don't see eye to eye, but I do respect his abilities.
That said, his idea is not half bad. Adding in cities that would be required to be destroyed and invaded, while not attached to a field would be more historically accurate than the system we have now. harden the buildings, and make them large enough so only bombers and tanks could do the job.
I still like Shiva's idea Lazs, too. They can both be implimented. You always said you would like to see more early war planes used (I think that was you).
If you look at my stats, I've logged more time in fighters than anything else for the first time.
As I stated, my ride is the FM2. If we implimented SHiva's idea, and I lost the FM2 availability, I'll go for the F4F, then the F6F, then the NIki.
Tha chances of losing every plane I am comfortable in is next to nill. The same goes for the much more accomplished pilots.
I simply think Shiva's idea will add challenge to the game, some depth, and force pilots to try somehting new.
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muck... thank you but I am at best mediocre... My lack of skill is a joke in our squad.. You can't imagine the insensitive and hurtful thintgs my squaddies say about me! The only thing I do well is attract cons and land badly damaged planes... I have no idea why someone as nice as me would cause the former but the latter is due to me having the most experiance in AH at landing badly damaged ac.
as to the idea... it started as an idea but then.... when I questioned it, it became a non idea... sounds good but has no substance... a 1-50 chance that your plane might be inconvienced for a short time at one field? why would anyone bother to prevent that? If you make it so that highly used planes are being screwed over.... It is unworkable... can you imagine the arguements that would insue? make me look like a popsiclecat. The idea is nonsensical when delved into a little deeper... I'm just pointing it out.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
next.. you claim that it wouldn't effect me unless I wanted to launch from a vultched field in a plane that just happened to to be the one that the wheel-o-plane availability ball stopped on? basicly... you have zero effect on fighters or the game 90% of the time... You are advocating that you become worthless. How would the unavailability of say a -4 corsair affect people upping from a vultched field? How are you "contributing"? Why would anyuone care to do anything but ignore you if they knew that there was only a 1 in 50 or so chance that you would make the plane they liked unavailable?
Look at the actual bombing offensive in WWII. It was rare that the crews of the 8th AF could see a direct effect from their missions. And Germany's aircraft production continued to rise through the progress of the war. That's why I came up with the strategic mechanism I did -- by bombing aircraft factories, you can have an effect on the front line, but it's going to be a crapshoot, and you're likely not going to see much difference.
But aircraft production and deliver is only one of the strategic targets. You want to get bent out of shape, let's look at the effects of bombing POL (Petroleum/Oil/Lubrication) facilities. While Germany's aircraft production continued to rise throughout the war, once Allied bombing efforts shifted to destroying their fuel supplies, they rapidly started losing the ability to fuel those aircraft.
OTOH... my idea of large cities that need to be carpet bombed allows you to have historic targets. It allows you to contribute by "winning the war" in fact... it makes you essential to winning the war as the complete destruction of the city is the criteria for the 'win" and only fluffs could accomplish that. Fighters could still take bases to move closer... Strat potatos and building battlers who lusted for that huge "win the war" payoff of 25 whole perk points would be "forced" to both attack enemy fluff formations and escort friendly fluffs...
It's the ideal solution for you -- it guarantees that anyone who's not interested in 'furball über alles" is going to have to go off chasing bombers, leaving you to furball to your heart's content, because a country that has been rolling up the map taking field after field can lose by having a small number of bomber pilots destroy their cities. So the people who are both interested in winning the war and in taking fields get to have their fun ruined by being forced to go off and chase bombers, because their taking fields is completely irrelevant to winning. Everybody who doesn't want to just furball goes off with the bombers, leaving you to furball to your heart's content. At that point, why not just have a separate 'Furball Arena', where the fields are close enough to get into a fight quickly, and bombers, ordnance, and ground vehicles are disabled so you won't have to worry about someone ruining your ability to furball to your heart's content? You get your eternal furball without interference, and we get to stop hearing your eternal whine about "no-talent mouse clickers" ruining your fun.
Now, you read that and tell me which of us is being more fair and realistic. In fact... which idea gives fluffers the more important role? which idea causes less friction between fluffers and fighters and promotes more teamwork (for those so inclined)?
Less friction? The bombers can end the game for everyone, you're forcing everyone in a fighter who isn't just interested in furballing to either escort or attack them. The first time that a country forces a reset against an enemy with a superior field position by using a small number of bombers to flatten cities, you're going to alienate all the fighter pilots who were attacking and defending the fields. It will turn the average fighter engagement into a [insert plane here] vs. P-51 duel, because picking another plane for an escort won't give you the range you need to protect the bombers. In one fell swoop you functionally eliminate choice of ride for half the fighter pilots. Oh, yes.... much less friction.
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Ok..If realism is your goal then you wouldn't be having aircraft factories except in large cities. you also would not stop production on specific aircraft. And it wouldn't be random..you also would not be singlehandedly piloting 3 aircraft... standing in for 30 people. bombers killed cities in WWII they also killed refineries. They didnt kill aircraft production... the real value of bombers, for the allies at least, was the slowing of fuel production and the forcing of LW fighters to come up to get slaughtered... basicly the oppossite of what you want and what I have advocated..
if gameplay is what you are after then... with your idea gameplay changes not one wit... What player, fuirballer or otherwise, would even care about your wheel-o-planeavailability? as you say... it has no effect on anyone... maybe 2% of the time has it's gamey dumb effect on a few people... and if you make it so that specific planes are targeted you will get those advocates screaming bloody murder. you either affect gameplay in a negligable manner or... you ruin it... no other way with your method.
with mine... everything stays the same except that fluffs have historical and important targets to hit... people will still hit bases to get closer to the action... that will still be an advantage for the (cough) "strat" guys... those who wish to stop the bombers will defend bases close to their cities and attack or escort fluffs attacking cities.. Those who like to furball and think the strat is silly will simply go where the best fight is.. No one will be "forced" to do anything. No one will log on and see that the plane they like to fly is not available at any field they want to fly out of...
no matter how you slice it... you want to fly a fluff but you want to be in the fighter war. You seem to feel that without the fighter guys you are nothing. No one will play with you unless they are forced to... no one will notice you unless you ruin their game. as in "whaaa... why can't I fly a spit 9 out of this base again?" "you mean because some fluffer milkran a factory an hour before i got on?" yeah... that'l make you real popular.... they won't be able to ignore you then eh?
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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it wasnt my idea to have the 3 plane control for bombers...i actualyl find its the worst thing to ever happen to AH...i never use them except when hitting a mildly defended base...mroe targets mean less hits on you
and if you dont like the idea tell me how to make it as good as it can that way a maximum amount of players will be happy.
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Originally posted by lazs2
No one will play with you unless they are forced to... no one will notice you unless you ruin their game.
I don't know Lazs. I've had plenty of fighters crawling up my six when I'm on a bomb run, that I wish would just ignore me.
I even tried flying with a banner on my plane that says "Please ignore me, I don't want to fight."
Yet they still keep shooting! :D
What about a turn on your idea, Lazs.
Add some large cities, and a reset happens when a countries cities are detroyed and occupied, AND the country is down to...I don't know, 5 fields.
Would that work?
THis way, the Jabo's do their thing, the fighters mix it up with the jabos and escorts, and the heavies will actually have something meaningful to do in this game.
And for God's sake, thoughen up the damn buildings! I mean, can you really destroy a damned bunker with 50 cals?
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Originally posted by lazs2
no matter how you slice it... you want to fly a fluff but you want to be in the fighter war. You seem to feel that without the fighter guys you are nothing.
Well, let's see. If Hitler hadn't been a knee-jerk idiot in 1940 after two He111s got lost, bombed London, and the RAF bombed Berlin in retaliation, the Luftwaffe would have continued their bombing campaign against the RAF fighter bases, they would have been able to destroy Fighter Command's ability to put up an effective defense against the German bombers. But wait -- you wouldn't want to let something as inconvenient as a historical example of bomber attacks causing damage to disrupt fighter operations, so we'll just take the historical effect of the Luftwaffe bombing campaign on RAF Fighter command and ignore it. After all, if reality doesn't fit our preconceived prejudices, then reality is wrong, isn't it?
Then there's the Allied bombing offensive against the German POL production, which caused fuel shortages that, by January 1945, had virtually grounded the Luftwaffe. But that's the same problem as we had before -- the ugly reality that intrudes into your carfully constructed prejudices.
Well, I suppose I have to agree with you, Lazs -- once you ignore the Luftwaffe's effect on Fighter command during the Battle of Britain, and the 8 AF's effect on Luftwaffe fuel supplies (and therefore its fighter ops), it's clear that bombing operations didn't have any effect on fighter operations during WWII.
How unfortunate, then, that the presence of these historical counterexamples to your premise refute it utterly.
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muck... i believe you are on the right track.. I have allways said that the "reset" should happen before the country is down to one field... I likes at least 2 but... close enough...
shiva... the LW never did stop fighter operations for the brits... it never happened. You can say coulda woulda but.... it never happened.. others have said that it couldn't happen. Anyhow... it didn't and the LW never stopped production of any fighter aircraft that I know of. The fuel shortages are true. they never stopped fighter operations tho... what made the LW obsolete and what killed every airforce was.... they got shot down by fighters. bombers were dead meat without escort. bombers main contribution to destroying the LW was the fact that fighters were killed by other fighters when they went up to attack the bomber streams. In any case.... bombers and strategic, much less carpet, bombing were not to stop fighter production. Why not have tank or gv factories for the bombers to hit... oh wait... the LW didn't slow tank production...
what the bombing did was slow the INCREASE in aircraft production..
lazs