Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: gofaster on November 19, 2002, 08:23:05 AM

Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: gofaster on November 19, 2002, 08:23:05 AM
I used to be a big proponent of the death penalty - hey, they killed someone, then they should be killed; eye for an eye and all that, right?

"But what if the guy is innocent?"  

"Nah, couldn't happen.  He had a trial with a jury and they found him guilty, so he must've done it..."

But now, with several cases re-opened and new methods of DNA testing being used to determine guilt or innocence, I have to wonder how many people were punished for crimes they didn't commit.

Like this one:

DNA Evidence Clears Man of Rape
Tue Nov 19, 5:59 AM ET  
 

By BRIAN WITTE, Associated Press Writer

BALTIMORE (AP) - Police used DNA evidence to arrest a man for a rape after DNA testing exonerated another man who served two decades in prison for the crime.

 

Bernard Webster was convicted of the assault, but was released Nov. 7 after DNA tests proved he could not have been the rapist. Darren Powell, 36, was arrested Monday morning as he walked to work, Baltimore County police said.


Investigators reopened the case and reviewed it with technology that did not exist in 1982. The 20-year-old evidence was submitted to Maryland's Combined DNA Index System, a statewide database set up in 1994 and maintained by the Maryland State Police.


In Maryland, felons must submit DNA samples that are acquired by an oral swab. Because Powell had been convicted of a past felony, his DNA was in the database, enabling investigators to get a warrant for his arrest.


Powell faces charges of first and second-degree rape, first-degree assault, first-degree sex offense and first-degree burglary.


He was being held without bail in the Baltimore County Detention Center.


Webster was 19 when a 47-year-old teacher identified him as the man who broke into her home and raped her in 1982. Can't get any better testimony than an eye witness victim identifying the suspect as the perpetrator, right?


Webster's lawyers said he wasn't entitled to compensation from the state for his time in prison, and he has no family, friends, job or home. He had been scheduled for release in February.


Two Baltimore-area state senators have pledged that if neither the governor nor the governor-elect takes steps to compensate him, they will push for a bill that pays him for his time behind bars.


On Nov. 7, Baltimore County Circuit Court Judge Christian M. Kahl ordered Webster freed, saying, "Justice moves slow at times, and in your case, it moved very, very slow."


Webster, 40, was the third person in Maryland and the 115th nationwide to have a conviction overturned by DNA evidence, according to the nonprofit Innocence Project in New York City.

Webster, who has been living in temporary housing since his release, has been following up on job offers since his exoneration became public, according to the state public defender's office. He has declined requests for interviews
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: lazs2 on November 19, 2002, 08:28:12 AM
I say yes... They should have some pretty damning evidence tho and the crime should be pretty sociopathic.    Death penalty is a deterant.. no way around that..  was listening to a "profiler" who was looking for a killer in Mi.  said she knew of one nutcase and it may be him... he had claimed that he would comit his murders in a state with no death penalty.   The death penalty is a mercy for all involved.   put em down... it's time.

oh... dna evidence cuts both ways.
lazs
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Gh0stFT on November 19, 2002, 08:48:54 AM
We dont have it here, the death penalty, but anyway
if we had the death penalty here, I always asked myself:
would I execute a Murder with my own hands ?
Its easy to say yes to death penalty as long as you dont
have to do the dirt job ?
Would you do it ?
Title: death penalty
Post by: bloodstain on November 19, 2002, 08:49:29 AM
I vote yes on this one. But like laz said the evidence and the type of crime should dictate such a harsh penalty. Besides we all know that the legal system can be manipulated, just ask O.J.

Even inmates on deathrow have quite a lot of appeals process that they can use should they feel they are innocent. Hell some of these guys die of natural causes before they even get put into the chair or gas chamber

Besides that case you mentioned doesn't really warrant the death penalty anyway.(also can't believe I am agreeing with Laz:D ) Sometimes when DNA comes back it can shatter the whole im innocent claim.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Thrawn on November 19, 2002, 08:54:05 AM
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
Death penalty is a deterant.. no way around that..  


If the death penalty is a deterant, why don't the states with capital punishment have the lowest incidence of homocides?
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Ripsnort on November 19, 2002, 08:54:50 AM
1st degree aggrevated assault with irrefutable evidence....Yes.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Eagler on November 19, 2002, 09:01:13 AM
I thought abortion was legal, ain't that a death penalty?

with the end result of an "innocent" victim being killed ...

one can kill (mutilate then suck out the remains) a being as innocent as they come but the same group has trouble killing a murdering bastard type .. go figure

sorry, slipped over from other thread - carry on with your lame argument
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Ripsnort on November 19, 2002, 09:03:42 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Gh0stFT
We dont have it here, the death penalty, but anyway
if we had the death penalty here, I always asked myself:
would I execute a Murder with my own hands ?
Its easy to say yes to death penalty as long as you dont
have to do the dirt job ?
Would you do it ?


Would you perform an abortion?
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Dowding (Work) on November 19, 2002, 09:05:06 AM
What are your feelings on post rape abortion Eagler? Surely that's 'murder' too?
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: lazs2 on November 19, 2002, 09:05:20 AM
well... we could use the abortion test... If the mother says it's ok then we can execute.   retroactive abortion and.... arguably... for better reason.
lazs
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: lazs2 on November 19, 2002, 09:07:42 AM
I don't think that I would enjoy executing someone but sometimes it has to be done.   I have put my own dog dwon and I have had proffesionals do it.   Better to have the pros do it but... if I have no choice... If it has to be done.. I got no problem with it.
lazs
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Turdboy on November 19, 2002, 09:09:28 AM
It goes both ways Eagler. The ones that want the Death penalty are the ones that don't want abortions.

I'm for the Death penalty and I think abortions are wrong BUT I think the woman needs to have the right to decide.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Eagler on November 19, 2002, 09:10:33 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding (Work)
What are your feelings on post rape abortion Eagler? Surely that's 'murder' too?


Dowding
please show me the stats...

Surely you don't believe more than 5% of all abortions are rape related do you?

5% is probably 3% too high ...........

to answer your question, yes it is murder - more easily justified but murder as is the death penalty - a particlar "murder" I am for.
Ghost
Ya, I could easily kill someone who had killed one of mine. Could I be the prison guard who threw the switch or released the gas - nope, wouldn't want that job. Not that the slob (prisoner) didn't deserve what he got, just wouldn't want the job.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Wlfgng on November 19, 2002, 09:12:17 AM
yes
as long as due process and indesputible(sp) evidence is presented.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Eagler on November 19, 2002, 09:15:15 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Turdboy
It goes both ways Eagler. The ones that want the Death penalty are the ones that don't want abortions.

I'm for the Death penalty and I think abortions are wrong BUT I think the woman needs to have the right to decide.


don't see it that way Turdboy

What did a murder do to get the death penalty?
What did the baby do to get its?

The womans "right to decide" happens way before the sperm and the egg unite.

After that, it ain't her call.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Dowding (Work) on November 19, 2002, 09:16:59 AM
Hmmm... I don't think I put any figures to the number of abortions that were rape related. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

But surely you would have to 'kill (mutilate then suck out the remains) a being as innocent as they come' after you have justified its death? Or is it not as precious as a life conceived in more suitable circumstances?
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Eagler on November 19, 2002, 09:22:55 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding (Work)
Hmmm... I don't think I put any figures to the number of abortions that were rape related. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

But surely you would have to 'kill (mutilate then suck out the remains) a being as innocent as they come' after you have justified its death? Or is it not as precious as a life conceived in more suitable circumstances?


Yes. It'd be a tough call for the woman and her family. A call they'd have to live with the rest of their lives.

I'm saying the numbers on this situation are so small as not to be a viable excuse for legal abortions yet EVERY time this subject is brought up, this silly notion of  terminating "rape related" abortions is thrust to the fore front as the main reason an abortion is performed..
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Gh0stFT on November 19, 2002, 09:26:40 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Would you perform an abortion?


to be honest Ripsnort, i dont know.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Thrawn on November 19, 2002, 09:56:35 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
I thought abortion was legal, ain't that a death penalty?


sorry, slipped over from other thread - carry on with your lame argument


No, that was a lame arguement.

Criminal on death row are human beings with moral significance, fetuses aren't.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Kieran on November 19, 2002, 09:59:15 AM
Conservatives allow fetuses to grow and screw their own lives up before aborting them. Liberals abort the fetuses because the mother screwed up.

That ought to get a few mouths foaming...
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Kieran on November 19, 2002, 10:00:54 AM
Quote
Criminal on death row are human beings with moral significance, fetuses aren't.


Oh. So if your pregnant wife is hit by a drunk driver and she loses her "fetus", it isn't manslaughter, right?
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Eagler on November 19, 2002, 10:02:57 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
No, that was a lame arguement.

Criminal on death row are human beings with moral significance, fetuses aren't.


No
your statement is lame

A human being that has killed another human being has a higher "moral significance" as you call it - than a human being that hasn't even had the opportunity to experience his/her life yet?

Does that really mean a murder has a "higher right to live" than that inconvenient pregnancy?

not in my book
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Thrawn on November 19, 2002, 10:10:15 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Kieran
Oh. So if your pregnant wife is hit by a drunk driver and she loses her "fetus", it isn't manslaughter, right?


Exactly.


Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
A human being that has killed another human being has a higher "moral significance" as you call it - than a human being that hasn't even had the opportunity to experience his/her life yet?

Does that really mean a murder has a "higher right to live" than that inconvenient pregnancy?


Exactly.

BTW, YOUR statement is more lame.  The question you should have asked is WHY does a criminal have more moral significance then a fetus.


However, I'll ask, WHY do you think a fetus have more moral signifance than a criminal on death row?
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Turdboy on November 19, 2002, 10:16:24 AM
Sorry Eagler but until the fetus becomes a child it's just that a fetus so the woman should have the right to have an abortion.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Kieran on November 19, 2002, 10:16:42 AM
I'll answer that. The fetus is completely innocent and completely without control of his/her situation. While it is convenient to label the fetus as "not life", it most certainly is alive. The fetus is being held accountable for the actions of the mother.

The criminal on death row has made his/her choices, relinquished his/her control of his/her life, and is now accountable for his/her actions.

It's pretty clear to me. Oh, and... if my wife was pregnant and you hit her while driving drunk and she lost the baby... I'd be going for manslaughter for all I was worth.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Eagler on November 19, 2002, 10:17:39 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
However, I'll ask, WHY do you think a fetus have more moral signifance than a criminal on death row?


cause he/she has not comitted the crime(s) against humanity that the criminal on death row has

ever wonder how many Einsteins, Mother Theresas, MLK's, JFK's, heck, a decent leader for the Democrats - have wound up in the trash bag of your local abortion clinic?
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Ripsnort on November 19, 2002, 10:20:01 AM
A fetus is sucking a thumb by 3 months.  Yeah, just a fetus. :rolleyes:
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Eagler on November 19, 2002, 10:20:05 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Turdboy
Sorry Eagler but until the fetus becomes a child it's just that a fetus so the woman should have the right to have an abortion.


and when is that?

I say a fetus is a child - when is a child a child to you?
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Thrawn on November 19, 2002, 10:20:55 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
A fetus is sucking a thumb by 3 months.  Yeah, just a fetus. :rolleyes:


My dick twitches around hot women.  Yeah, just a dick.  :rolleyes:
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: midnight Target on November 19, 2002, 10:23:47 AM
I'm against the death penalty, and for legal abortion.




Abortion should be limited, however, to only undeveloped fetuses less than 18 years old. Especially if they come home late or fail to do homework.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Keez on November 19, 2002, 10:23:59 AM
I'm against the death penalty for the simple reason that the state can NEVER be 100% sure if the suspect is the murderer. And I mean never. Sure you can say "well I'm for death penalty but only if there is some really good, solid evidence". Even then, sooner or later, you can be guaranteed that an innocent person will be executed as mistakes will ALWAYS be made. Even if it's one in every hundred cases.

And for the abortion thing... I am against it. A fetus is as much a human being as everyone else. Just because this human hasnt grown enough to leave the mother's womb doesnt mean that its life is less valuable. I never understood how people could kill their own blood. And dont start with the rape thing. A mother would murder a child so she would not be reminded of the rape? Ofcourse the poor lady has already gone through a lot, but she can give the child up after it has been born. Nothing is worth killing a child, even if conceived under such difficult circumstances.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Eagler on November 19, 2002, 10:25:56 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Keez
I'm against the death penalty for the simple reason that the state can NEVER be 100% sure if the suspect is the murderer. And I mean never.


ya think theres much doubt about the DC snipers?
:rolleyes:
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Eagler on November 19, 2002, 10:29:17 AM
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
I'm against the death penalty, and for legal abortion.


psst ...

if you are for abortion - you are for the death penalty (just a different age group - one that can't file legal appeals)
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: midnight Target on November 19, 2002, 10:32:48 AM
psssst....


reasonable people can disagree on this issue.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Keez on November 19, 2002, 10:33:09 AM
Yeah those people are guilty. But you and I both know that there have been several cases in which innocent people were put to death. Now you can hold this one specific case in front of me, but you and I BOTH know it's the truth. And killing 1000 guilty people is, to me, not worth it if 1 innocent men is killed along with them.

I am not religious, but I know my share about the bible, and I know a heck of a lot Americans are religious. There is a part in the bible in which god says he would not destroy a village full of sinners if there is just 1 good believer among them.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Wlfgng on November 19, 2002, 10:34:48 AM
Quote
I'm against the death penalty for the simple reason that the state can NEVER be 100% sure if the suspect is the murderer. And I mean never. Sure you can say "well I'm for death penalty but only if there is some really good, solid evidence". Even then, sooner or later, you can be guaranteed that an innocent person will be executed as mistakes will ALWAYS be made. Even if it's one in every hundred cases.


the problem with this attitude IMO, and it's a decent attitude btw, is that we (taxpayers) end up supporting them the rest of their lives.. with the possibility that the criminal (assuming guilt here) will get out and commit the same or worse.

huge money burden, overcrowding, no-repentance no rehabilitation, possibility of more henious crimes

(all this assumes we're talking death-penalty type crimes)
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: H. Godwineson on November 19, 2002, 10:35:30 AM
Some of you fellows brains have migrated southward.

The fetus can do anything a newborn baby can, except breathe on its own.  It is not a parasite or a cancer.  If a woman does not want a child in her life she can use a contraceptive or simply stop having mindless sex with us lust-besotted males.  Abortion for convenience is wrong, period.

The death penalty serves a purpose.  To keep the innocent from being executed I propose that the laws be changed so that execution would not be possible if there was no DNA evidence connecting the individual to the crime.  The technology exists, so we should use it.  Some of these criminals are so dangerous and socio-pathic they need to be put down because it is the only way to guarantee the safety of the law-abiding citizenry.

Shuckins
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Naso on November 19, 2002, 10:37:12 AM
I am against death penalty... any case.

Abortion: tough call, maybe only a woman can understand fully what really means.

And I have noticed all the people that entered this thread are the same old Demo/Rep propaganda boys.

No woman can share her opinion?
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Keez on November 19, 2002, 10:48:25 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Wlfgng
the problem with this attitude IMO, and it's a decent attitude btw, is that we (taxpayers) end up supporting them the rest of their lives.. with the possibility that the criminal (assuming guilt here) will get out and commit the same or worse.

huge money burden, overcrowding, no-repentance no rehabilitation, possibility of more henious crimes

(all this assumes we're talking death-penalty type crimes)


It brings its problems, yes. I think someone's opinion on this depends on his priorities in life. I'd rather pay high taxes for the rest of my life so that innocents may live.

The possibility of more crimes is assuming that they'd escape, I presume? Well I have no hard figures to back this up, but I thought that the max security prisons are quite hard to get out of? Even if not... For me nothing is worth killing an innocent person. Even if it might save another innocent persons life.

But then again, this is just my opinion on the matter. I am not the person who has to deal with these kind of problems on a daily basis. It's a very hard topic, a very complicated one. I think I'll take a humble position and say that I do not oversee all the consequences of what I think is right. But it is the best I can say about it, being an average person as far as this topic goes.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Reschke on November 19, 2002, 10:53:29 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Kieran
It's pretty clear to me. Oh, and... if my wife was pregnant and you hit her while driving drunk and she lost the baby... I'd be going for manslaughter for all I was worth.


Sorry Kieran but "manslaughter" is not what I would push for. If the courts did not get the person who was the cause. Then they had better hope I don't loose my temper and come after them because I can think of many ways to kill and never be caught and in that frame of mind I would feel justified and never feel the need to be remorseful about it.

On a side not I am for the death penalty and I am for the woman being able to make her own choices about whether or not she wants to continue the pregnancy.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Thrawn on November 19, 2002, 10:53:42 AM
Eagler, why do you think a fetus have more moral signifance than a criminal on death row?
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Ripsnort on November 19, 2002, 10:58:24 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
Eagler, why do you think a fetus have more moral signifance than a criminal on death row?


A fetus is a human being that didn't have a choice when it was formed.  A death row inmate had choices in life, and made the wrong ones knowing the result would most likely end in his death.

And, comparing your dick to a fetus, as you did above, should make your children proud. :rolleyes:
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: AKS\/\/ulfe on November 19, 2002, 11:03:23 AM
So, you guys are against the death penalty for convicted fetus'?

Why?
-SW

PS: Yer a dolt if you are trying to get a connection between the death penalty and abortions.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Thrawn on November 19, 2002, 11:07:42 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
A fetus is a human being that didn't have a choice when it was formed.  .


What make a fetus a human being?



Quote
And, comparing your dick to a fetus, as you did above, should make your children proud. :rolleyes:


You have no idea what would or would not make my child proud of me.

And I don't think you understand what the word compare means.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Wlfgng on November 19, 2002, 11:08:18 AM
get OUT of my house...Wulfe :)

and I have to agree with your 'P.S.'
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Thrawn on November 19, 2002, 11:08:33 AM
Quote
Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
So, you guys are against the death penalty for convicted fetus'?


LMAO!!!  :D
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: miko2d on November 19, 2002, 11:26:33 AM
Thrawn: If the death penalty is a deterant, why don't the states with capital punishment have the lowest incidence of homocides?

 Are all the other conditions equal? Could it be that the states have death penalty because they have high incidence of homicides to start with?

Eagler: After that, it ain't her call.
 Law enforcement is a society matter and is intended to protect the members of society.
 Abortion is a family matter and the fetus is not a member of society. Killing a fetus against mother's wishes is not a homicide though there is no reason for that crime to carry similar punishment.
 Whatever our feeings about barbaric practice, we should have no say in it.

 In non-oppressive society the government only has powers that members surrendered to it in the matters that affect others.
 Why would a family surrender their power/right over their fetus? Exercising it in no way affects any other member of the society.
 Of course in an oppressive society it's a matter of taste for whoever is in power - including voters - whether it's "her call" or not in being forced to continue pregnancy or being subjected to forced abortion etc.
 Self-righteous people tend to confuse morals with laws - of course they have the excuse - their God told them so.

 miko
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Kieran on November 19, 2002, 11:36:26 AM
Quote
Yer a dolt if you are trying to get a connection between the death penalty and abortions.


Ditto if you can't see the connection.

Honestly, I understand society will always allow abortions, and since I like living in this society I will live with it. OTOH, I don't believe they are morally right. As for executions for criminals convicted of capital crimes, yeah, I am for it if there is overwhelming proof of guilt. Timothy McVeigh, anyone? Jeffrey Dahmer?

Oh... the connection? They are both concerned with taking life. I know it is more convenient to not consider fetuses alive, but... they are.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Thrawn on November 19, 2002, 11:37:16 AM
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
Thrawn: If the death penalty is a deterant, why don't the states with capital punishment have the lowest incidence of homocides?


 
Quote
Are all the other conditions equal? Could it be that the states have death penalty because they have high incidence of homicides to start with?


Lazs was the person who said it WAS a deterrant.  I then questioned that statement as it seemed that if it was a deterrant then it wasn't very effective

Your statement still doesn't support Lazs's statement that capital punishment is a deterrant.  Nor has it yet been proved at all.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: AKS\/\/ulfe on November 19, 2002, 11:46:26 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Kieran
Oh... the connection? They are both concerned with taking life. I know it is more convenient to not consider fetuses alive, but... they are.


A lot of things are alive. toejam, everything is alive.

Go cry about those trees that died for your paper. Those animals that suffer/died for your soap/cosmetics. Those insects that die because of those bug zappers.

There is no connection between the death penalty and abortion, the only connection is invented by those who oppose one or the other and decide to go hippy and join the two together to further "strengthen" their resolve.

Shit ain't gonna fly with me. I didn't buy this "abortion is murder" crap when I was fed it in school, and I don't buy it now.
-SW
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: mrfish on November 19, 2002, 11:51:56 AM
yes death penalty and yes abortions, both performed summarily and without a bunch of fanfare i might add.

they both have tough consequences but life's just like that. nature is just as tough on the lions who can't afford to wait up for old 'gimpy' who can't land any impala kills any more.

we don't need the weight of unwanted kids and adults who can't ever seem to learn to play along, we could direct more of our resources to meaningful pursuits. there isn't always a sunshine solution to everything, just buck up and get over it.

it's hard to believe that these are such perennially hot topics considering how many relevant things we could be worrying about.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Kieran on November 19, 2002, 11:55:45 AM
I stand corrected, SW. Human fetuses aren't people by your definition, totally understand you. I differ in opinion.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Eagler on November 19, 2002, 11:57:15 AM
Quote
Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
A lot of things are alive. toejam, everything is alive.

Go cry about those trees that died for your paper. Those animals that suffer/died for your soap/cosmetics. Those insects that die because of those bug zappers.

There is no connection between the death penalty and abortion, the only connection is invented by those who oppose one or the other and decide to go hippy and join the two together to further "strengthen" their resolve.

Shit ain't gonna fly with me. I didn't buy this "abortion is murder" crap when I was fed it in school, and I don't buy it now.
-SW


animals kingdom = human babies ???

so your "new" girl-friend tells you she is pregnant tonite.
what do you do, slip her $1000 and tell her to take care of it? wait til she mentions it and offer to kick in half???

abortion is murder, buy it or not - go check the trash at your local womans clinic & tell me they weren't living human beings before the vacumn sucked them out.

any of you pro choicers care to admit you've already paid for one?
Or is the shame alittle too much.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: AKS\/\/ulfe on November 19, 2002, 11:58:08 AM
Question then, how can you kill something that doesn't know it's alive?
-SW
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Thrawn on November 19, 2002, 11:59:06 AM
Nice attitude, life sucks because life sucks and we shouldn't try and stop it from sucking.  That just sounds lazy.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Thrawn on November 19, 2002, 12:05:30 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
animals kingdom = human babies ???



Hey Eagler, humans are part of the animal kingdom, unless you think we are fungi, plants or single cell organisms.

Quote

abortion is murder, buy it or not - go check the trash at your local womans clinic & tell me they weren't living human beings before the vacumn sucked them out.


Abortion isn't murder, hell it's not even illegal.

Quote
any of you pro choicers care to admit you've already paid for one?
Or is the shame alittle too much.


Propably more like, none of your damn business.  But I'm not surprised you would ask, after all your trying to stick your nose into other womens business.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Tumor on November 19, 2002, 12:07:18 PM
Yes... Kill'em all, make room for more!
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Eagler on November 19, 2002, 12:10:11 PM
Quote
Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Question then, how can you kill something that doesn't know it's alive?
-SW


have you asked a fetus, did one tell you it doesn't know?
It has brain activity, heart beat, response to stimulus...

Have you ever been through a pregnancy with a woman, everyday for nine+ months?

Thrawn
I ask the question not to pry just to illustrate the fact that it is a dark dirty little secret for even those that are "for it".

If it is just another "freedom", why the shame?
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Kieran on November 19, 2002, 12:11:31 PM
Quote
Question then, how can you kill something that doesn't know it's alive?


Good question. Ask someone in a coma.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: hardcase on November 19, 2002, 12:24:41 PM
Any society that kills its prisoners is flawed. BTW..look at the countries that still have it on their books. It is not company any advanced society would want to be seen with.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Thrawn on November 19, 2002, 12:24:42 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
have you asked a fetus, did one tell you it doesn't know?
It has brain activity, heart beat, response to stimulus...


Again, you have just discribed an ant.

Quote
Have you ever been through a pregnancy with a woman, everyday for nine+ months?


Yes, this in no way validates or invalidates any arguement.

Quote
Thrawn
I ask the question not to pry just to illustrate the fact that it is a dark dirty little secret for even those that are "for it".

If it is just another "freedom", why the shame?


By that logic.  Does your wife give you blow jobs, how often?
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: gofaster on November 19, 2002, 12:27:28 PM
People in comas can't speak for themselves, but the courts can.

http://www.jud10.org/2ndDCA/jan01/2D00-1269.htm

A wrinkle to the above case is the fact that it has come to light that Mr. Schiavo had an affair with another woman and has recently fathered an illegitimate baby.  Since Mr. Schiavo is still legally married to Mrs. Schiavo (hence the grounds for his determination to remove the feeding tubes and pave the way for him to collect insurance money and a judicial award relating to the medical treatment of his wife), is this grounds for divorce or annulment of the marriage?  If dissolution of the marriage were to be granted, would his right to terminate her life support be denied, and would the decision to terminate Mrs. Schiavo's life-support rest with her parents?

Also, if a person is in a coma, can her parents file for divorce from her husband if its proven that he commited adultery?
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Ripsnort on November 19, 2002, 12:33:29 PM
From abortions to blow jobs, you're a real societal winner there Thrawn...been drinking heavy again? :rolleyes:
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Thrawn on November 19, 2002, 12:40:13 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
From abortions to blow jobs, you're a real societal winner there Thrawn...been drinking heavy again? :rolleyes:


He was asking a personal question, I asked a personal question.  Can't follow the intrecate convolutions there Rip?

Great contribution to the thread by the way, and thanks for the personal insult.  
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: AKS\/\/ulfe on November 19, 2002, 12:43:10 PM
Every living creature has brain waves. Animals, particularly domesticated house pets, have exhibited intelligence and the ability to learn, cope and adapt.

That in itself is far more brain activity than a fetus could ever muster.

Why don't all you pro-lifers put your money where your mouth is, start up an adoption program for all fetus' that would have been aborted... and do it out of your own pocket. Or you could simply adopt them yourselves. What? You don't have the money? Ever thought about the person who is having the abortion? Maybe it's a bigger reason that it simply being "unwanted".

That's the solution to stopping abortions.
-SW
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Keez on November 19, 2002, 01:09:11 PM
If something not knowing it is alive is an excuse to kill it... Grab a 9mm and whack the brains of the 2 weeks old baby next door against the walls. You're not gonna tell me it knows it is alive more than before it was born right? Just because it.... well... what does it do more... just because it cries perhaps?
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: AKS\/\/ulfe on November 19, 2002, 01:12:50 PM
"excuse"

I'm sorry, I fail to follow this train of thought. The "excuse" is the reason that the mother/father have.

Any other input is tertiary roadkill.
-SW
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: H. Godwineson on November 19, 2002, 01:16:02 PM
For those of you who have a problem with the death penalty...think of it as retroactive abortion.

Does that make it more palatable?

Shuckins
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: hardcase on November 19, 2002, 01:18:25 PM
40k children starved to death today in the world. The US has 3rd world stats on childhood deaths. Done anything to save them? Is life "precious" only when you can control some poor women, and be the "daddy" and spank em for doing wrong?

Retroactive abortion.....I always suspected that pro-lifers really only
care about being a "daddy spank", cause when a real life situation arises, they dont seem to care that much. Pro-life and death penalty advocate. You seem somewhat conflicted. Then again, pro-life, you can turn you back on women too.

HC
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: AKS\/\/ulfe on November 19, 2002, 01:23:25 PM
Quote
Originally posted by hardcase
40k children starved to death today in the world.


You'd think with all the love for life and fetus and children... we'd be able to take care of the ones that were on this planet first, rather than bring more in....
-SW
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: H. Godwineson on November 19, 2002, 01:26:42 PM
hardcase,

Which would be easier, at least economically for these poor women?  A 50 cent condom or a $1000 abortion?  Which carries the greater health risk?  If you are going to aid these poor people, which would you rather pay for?

You continue to speak up for the rights of women who are perfectly capable of speaking for themselves.  If I do not speak up for the unborn, who will?  They cannot speak for themselves.  Some of the attitudes about abortion stem from the mindless attitudes about sex that became popular during the 1960's, a "gift" of the new morality.

Shuckins
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: AKS\/\/ulfe on November 19, 2002, 01:29:07 PM
Quote
Originally posted by H. Godwineson
hardcase,

Which would be easier, at least economically for these poor women?  A 50 cent condom or a $1000 abortion?  Which carries the greater health risk?  If you are going to aid these poor people, which would you rather pay for?


And what if that condom breaks? Hmmmm.... you're out fitty cent, and now you gotta pull $1000 outta your ass.

Why do you speak for the unborn, when there are so many on this planet in dire need of a voice as strong as yours (pro-life), but you are mute to their cries?

Riddle me that.
-SW
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Thrawn on November 19, 2002, 01:29:16 PM
Quote
Originally posted by H. Godwineson
For those of you who have a problem with the death penalty...think of it as retroactive abortion.

Does that make it more palatable?

Shuckins


No, and nor is it.

Excuation is a performed on a citizen by the state regardless of the citizens wishes.

And abortion if performed on a woman's body by her own choice.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Thrawn on November 19, 2002, 01:30:27 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Kieran
Good question. Ask someone in a coma.


People who are unconcience or in a coma already  have their rights reduced.

Ever taken first aid?
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: AKS\/\/ulfe on November 19, 2002, 01:33:50 PM
Before you start dealing with the unborn, why don't you fellers so willing to stand up for life fight this fight too?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22starving+children%22

And this one:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22poor+children%22

So much money has been spent in the US alone to fight the abortions.. that money COULD have gone to help feed, clothe and vaccinate these poor children.

THEY are going through REAL suffering.
-SW
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Kieran on November 19, 2002, 01:36:47 PM
Quote
That's the solution to stopping abortions.


I was kinda thinking there was a more obvious solution...
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: hardcase on November 19, 2002, 01:37:03 PM
Women do not always have a choice in sexual matters. Anyone who thinks a fourteen year old black girl in the ghetto can stand up some sexually activc male and say..no, not without a condom simply have no concept of the real world that females live in.  They base their solutions on the world in which they live. Priviledged, educated, finacially secure. Their women can say NO. Their women are not all women.

HC
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Wlfgng on November 19, 2002, 01:37:36 PM
Quote
decide to go hippy


classic.. I keep finding great stuff to use in this thread!

lol




public execution would deter a lot of these bozo's that thing it's worth it to commit a crime (serious henious crime) because the punishment is not tooo severe..
they get put in prison,
the network,
learn to be 'better' criminals,
abuse the system,
get out and commit more crimes... etc etc...

hell they get TV, workout rooms, internet, drugs, etc..
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: AKS\/\/ulfe on November 19, 2002, 01:38:29 PM
Yeah Kieran, letting 'em live a life of poverty with a parent who did not want them anyway.

That's so not the obvious answer... but don't mind me, I'm sure your years of coaching will guide you on this.
-SW
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: H. Godwineson on November 19, 2002, 01:39:14 PM
Abortion doesn't affect just the woman's body.   It affects two individuals.  The weakest individual has no say in the decision to abort.

Just because she wants to make the decision does not make it right.  Abortion for convenience is just one more by-product of a culture that is becoming increasingly self-centered, nihilistic, and no longer believes in "sin."  

Preventing conception is relatively easy.  I would rather support laws and programs that made contraception easier than I would present laws that allow abortion on demand.  There is a moral difference between the two.

Shuckins
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: hardcase on November 19, 2002, 01:40:00 PM
if the death penalty is a deterent, why do ppl still kill each other in Texas. We know they execute at the drop of hat. Are Texans any safer?

It is NOT a deterent.

HC
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Kieran on November 19, 2002, 01:42:53 PM
SW-

What's with the personal BS? Sorry I don't agree with you, I just don't. I think fetuses are people.

Get a grip.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: AKS\/\/ulfe on November 19, 2002, 01:43:00 PM
No one taking me up on my offer to support private organisations to feed already starving, poor and disease ridden children?

I didn't think so.

Enjoy showing each other your morals.. I'm out.
-SW
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Eagler on November 19, 2002, 01:45:12 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
By that logic.  Does your wife give you blow jobs, how often?


Are you saying you paid for an abortion?
Never said YOUR wife, so I never made it personal.
Seems like I hit a nerve, is there a reason?
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: hardcase on November 19, 2002, 01:45:25 PM
You keep saying a blastosphere is an individual. It isnt. That makes the decision the woman's.

HC
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Wlfgng on November 19, 2002, 01:46:26 PM
I guarantee that if there were capital punishment in every state the crime rate would drop.

problem now is that the criminals hope to get tried in a different state or slilp through the system.

it has to be country-wide or it isn't going to be effective.




you go Wulfe.. I totally agree
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Thrawn on November 19, 2002, 01:46:42 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
Are you saying you paid for an abortion?
Never said YOUR wife, so I never made it personal.
Seems like I hit a nerve, is there a reason?


Okay,  how many blow jobs do you get in a month, on average.  There now your wife isn't involved.  Are you ashamed of something?
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: hardcase on November 19, 2002, 01:48:28 PM
Men trying to decide the fate of women. The saying is still true...if men got pregnant we would not be having the conversation. It is the womens final say so. From the days of sticking a coat hangar into their womb and bleeding to death on kitchen tables, it is their desparate act and it is their right to have the abortion done safely without anyone's interference.

HC
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: H. Godwineson on November 19, 2002, 01:49:03 PM
The death penalty is not a deterrent because, contrary to popular opinion, it is rarely used.

It sometimes takes decades for a criminal to make it all the way through the trial, and appeals, second trial, more appeals, pleas for clemency from civil rights groups, and more appeals and thus, finally, to the day of execution.

Despite the publicity given to the executions in Texas, criminals know that their chances of actually being executed are extremely low.  So they are NOT deterred from committing acts of murder, rape, etc.

If DNA evidence points to the person accused of the crime, judgement, and punishment, should be swift and final.  The certainty of punishment would be the best deterrent of all.

Shuckins
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Eagler on November 19, 2002, 01:49:07 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
Okay,  how many blow jobs do you get in a month, on average.  There now your wife isn't involved.  Are you ashamed of something?


huh?

If you must know, you sicko, not enough & yes I'm ashamed as I do not get enough of them :)

sorry if I put you in a corner, I did not mean to single you out
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Kieran on November 19, 2002, 01:50:26 PM
SW-

The question was how people felt about the death penalty. It went from there to a comparison of abortion. It's all about opinion.

Pull your panties out of your crack.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: hardcase on November 19, 2002, 01:54:10 PM
I told you Goodwine was a Daddy Spank. He is not pro life, he, like most profess to be so, but only to control the women. When it comes down to it, it is that God Wrath thing he wants to see, punishment for all the evil trangressors.LOL.

judgement, and punishment, should be swift and final

Daddy Spank

HC
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: lazs2 on November 19, 2002, 01:56:13 PM
thrawn... not to put too fine a point on it but.... isn't abortion performed on the unborn (and sometimes that is debateable) babies body and not the mothers?   The mother is not "aborted".

I don't really care but I would like someone to explain to me at what point a human is.... human.   At that point it seems that he is protected or convicted by societies laws regardless of his ability to speak for himself.  Soo.... at what point is a fetus a human being?   At what point is a baby human?   seriously.    

The criminal rolled the dice and lost... how does that compare to the total inocence of the newborn or allmost born or ... whatever it is?

of the two arguements the pro life pro death penalty one seems the most logical... The pro abortion anti death penalty seems backwards... orwellian... you wish to kill the inocent but allow the guilty to live and maybe kill again.
lazs
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Thrawn on November 19, 2002, 02:01:08 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
huh?

If you must know, you sicko, not enough & yes I'm ashamed as I do not get enough of them :)

sorry if I put you in a corner, I did not mean to single you out


I'm not in a corner Eagler, I have never paid for an abortion and,  as far as I know, only impregnated one woman once.

I was pointing out that it was none of your business because I thought it wasn't, not because  I felt guilty.  I wanted my points to stand  on their own merits, not because I hadn't been in the situation you discribed.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: H. Godwineson on November 19, 2002, 02:02:26 PM
Most of you guys defending abortion have already been born.  

AksWulfe,  I've been giving to charities and the poor all my life.  So cut the cracks about anti-abortion people being "unconcerned" about the suffering of the poor.

Most of the abortions performed in the U.S. are performed on middle and upper class women.  Most of the poor women and girls in my area do not even consider having an abortion.  Not because they cannot afford it but because they do not believe in it.  Likewise the sex is mostly voluntary, with rape being a rarity.  There is no longer any moral stygma attached to having a child out of wedlock.

We are living in a society that no longer attempts to control its glands.

Shuckins
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: lazs2 on November 19, 2002, 02:02:30 PM
hardcase... where do you see men decideing the fate of women here?   They are simply not allowing pro abortionists to decide the fate of another human being (if it is indeed a human being).

I don't care... kill all the fetus you like but don't be a sissy about it and act like it isn't killing another human being and then go out and cry for the poor sociopaths life.  Sounds cowardly and dishonest to me... able to do the one cause it is convienent and you can't hear the screams but not the other because they look at you?    Sheesh be a man about it.
lazs
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Kieran on November 19, 2002, 02:02:31 PM
Yeah Lazs, but unless you give to charity you can't say that. SW said so. ;)
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: AKS\/\/ulfe on November 19, 2002, 02:03:29 PM
You're right Kieran...

But it wasn't me who brought up morals. Many other, incidently people who are "pro-life" did, so I challenged them.

I got the answer I wanted, and it disgusts me.

Lazs, what about pro-death penalty and pro-"I don't give a toejam since it ain't my business"?

Death penalty should be reserved for the truly heinous crimes(rape included), and/or repeat criminals that commit acts of violence.
-SW
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Thrawn on November 19, 2002, 02:08:53 PM
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
thrawn... not to put too fine a point on it but.... isn't abortion performed on the unborn (and sometimes that is debateable) babies body and not the mothers?   The mother is not "aborted".

I don't really care but I would like someone to explain to me at what point a human is.... human.   At that point it seems that he is protected or convicted by societies laws regardless of his ability to speak for himself.  Soo.... at what point is a fetus a human being?   At what point is a baby human?   seriously


It is the operation is performed on both.  Tell a woman that has had an abortion that nothing has actually happend to her.

The difference is is that the fetus isn't a unique individual.  It is completely dependant on the host for survival.  The host's rights supercede that of the fetus's until the point in time in which the fetus can live without the host.  If it can live without the host then  it is a distinct viable human being.

Do you consider the moral ramifications of a tumour that is removed?

A fetus's hearts beats, so does a worms.
The fetus contains the potential to be a human,so does a sperm.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: H. Godwineson on November 19, 2002, 02:09:30 PM
Hardcase,

Make a coherent argument please.  I'm condemning "abortion for the sake of convenience" , and women who refuse to accept the consequences of their actions.  I am against abortion as a method of contraception because there are less repugnant ways of achieving the same result.

And yes, I do believe in sin.  Normally I don't get involved in telling someone else how to live their lives.  But I am speaking out now for those who cannot speak for themselves.  

Shuckins
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Kieran on November 19, 2002, 02:13:40 PM
Quote
Do you consider the moral ramifications of a tumour that is removed?


Comparing a tumor to a fetus? Can I be reading this?
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Eagler on November 19, 2002, 02:15:55 PM
that's it in a nutshell

once you take God, a Soul and the hereafter out of the equation - all things are possible & justified as it is a me, me, me world.

Thrawn
the difference is a Soul, but as you do not believe in one, I can only guess there is no difference to you btwn a worm and a baby.

sorry to hear that
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: hardcase on November 19, 2002, 02:17:46 PM
Criminal rolled the dice..remember now, he is one of those precisous lives that get ignored once they are born. He was not born wanting to kill. How did he get there? I dont think you can be pro life and pro death, simply because the one you want to kill, is precious. He is alive. These are you arguments against abortion.

No wait.....he asked for it, so we can whump his ass...but wait..the mother asked for it too, right? So we can whump her ass. We christians sure like our bellybutton whumpings.  By God, diddly up and disobey what we obey and we will whump yo' bellybutton too.

So, lets look at what you obey....the history of a a 4 thousand year old middle eastern desert patriarchial philosophy based on total submission to the father, to the point Abe was gonna gut his son cause "god told him to"(today that excuse still gets you executed).  The idea that someone knows best for another is a bit to parental for me, based on the notion that what you believe somehow gives you the right to impose your belief system  on others.

Hundreds of millions have died by others attempts to impose their will. Time to learn.

HC
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: AKS\/\/ulfe on November 19, 2002, 02:19:59 PM
If this is correct, "Total abortions from1973 to 1998 -- 38,010,378"

That's for the US...

We would be living in one crowded country.
-SW

source: http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/aboramt.html
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: miko2d on November 19, 2002, 02:22:32 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
Lazs was the person who said it WAS a deterrant.  Asked, :Then why this...?"

You statement still doesn't support Lazs's statement that capital punishment is a deterrant.


 It surely does not - neither it is intended to. It just claims that your comparison with another state is invalid and does not support your claim to the opposite.

 Let me make a non-political analogy - some people have problems with logic when politics are concerned but not otherwise:

 Lazs: Installing a window awning makes room much cooler.

 Thrawn: All houses in Florida have window awnings and the rooms there are still hotter than rooms in Iceland where nobody bothers with window awnings! Window awnings do not work!


 Eagler: Have you ever been through a pregnancy with a woman, everyday for nine+ months?

 Are you implying that you tried to force her to have an abortion and needed the help of the law to restrain you? As long as you mind your own fetuses, the question of abortion should be purely academic for you - unless someone tries to use your tax dollars.


 Eagler: If it is just another "freedom", why the shame?

 So everything shamefull or just uncomfortable to talk about must be illegal in your world?
 Well, I did not really have an abortion to admit to but for your sake I will state that I've just took a crap. I do not really bring that up in the conversations, but since you insist... Wand the description of texture and color? Maybe a digital picture next time?

 Eagler: have you asked a fetus, did one tell you it doesn't know?

 Fetus is created within an individual/family - not in the society. So as a parent I can make the decision.
 Of course the commies and/or religious fanatics believe that society is more important than family or/and individual and has first claim to anything.

 Keez: Grab a 9mm and whack the brains of the 2 weeks old baby next door against the walls.

 That would be an invasion of someone else's private domain. Babies usually belong to somebody. Of course if the baby does not belong to anyone and nobody intends to claim it, he will die anyway so you may waste a bulet and whack the brains or watch him die naturally and not make a slighest moral difference. Of course if someone claims the baby of there is a reason to believe someone intends to, the situation reverts to the original one.

 It's really a matter of freedom as security of one's domain and property. Your not being allowed to do somehing with other people's domain is not becasue some details of what is happening in that domain, but just becasue it is their domain.

 miko
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Thrawn on November 19, 2002, 02:23:05 PM
I think it would be pretty funny if women started up a movement to have men castrated after a certain age in order to stop unwanted pregnancies.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: hardcase on November 19, 2002, 02:23:18 PM
A little sidenote.

One of the markers to identify Colon Cancer is the CEA marker. Its name is CarcinoEmbryonic Antigen.

My understanding is..the Cancer is a cell turn ON by some DNA strand being turned back on, that was shut down during developement. You are 'pregnant'..your cells are growing rapidly and undifferentiated. That defintion is the the defintion of a neoblast growth.

Dont be to sure about, living..being alive.

HC
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: gofaster on November 19, 2002, 02:30:57 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Wlfgng

public execution would deter a lot of these bozo's that thing it's worth it to commit a crime (serious henious crime) because the punishment is not tooo severe..


They tried that with pirates.  All it did was disgust the people who wouldn't have turned pirate anyway.  The real solution was an effective form of law enforcement in areas where piracy was active, which is why the hottest spot for modern-day piracy is the Phillipines and the South China Sea where jurisdictional borders are limited and there are plenty of tiny islands to hide on.  Nowadays, its rebels/thieves in speedboats with automatic weapons knocking off fishing boats and coastal freighters.  That's how a lot of the Islamic groups in the Phils are funding their terrorist activities.

If you want to reduce the incidence of crime, you have to implement an effective form of crime control.  I'm not convinced that the death penalty is a good tool for that job, particularly when the risk of convicting an innocent person exists.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Kanth on November 19, 2002, 02:36:30 PM
testing new signature...

sorry Kieran, it's the first time I've seen you get so worked up, I gotta make a short memorial to it :)
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: lazs2 on November 19, 2002, 02:37:38 PM
comon guys... hardcase... are you really that dense or are  you pretending?   guess it comes out the same... we are not doing anything to the mother when we abort or not abort her child save killing or not killing her child.. no worse or better than what we are doing to the father.    Killing a sociopath puts him out of his misery and protects the lives of anyone else he may kill in the future.    The baby is an unknown maybe a killer too but.... Who knows?  sheesh we may have killed the hundreds of guys capable of the cure for cancer or aids before they were old enough to pick up a test tube.

now.... seriously.... do you guys know what a healthy white baby goes for on the open market?   soon... it will be healthy black babies... abortion seems kinda... at the very least... "superflourous"?   Again.... the mother need not keep the baby.   We house, feed, clothe and otherwise coddle millions of people that have proven that they are worthless pieces os toejam with little chance of being anything else... maybe we are killing the wrong people?

Still.... no one here has told me at what point human life and, human rights starts.   I think we need to get that out of the way before we can even discuss "abortions"
lazs
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: babek- on November 19, 2002, 02:37:39 PM
Death Penalty ? No.

If you want to punish criminals in a way that they are really hurt and scared - then put them for the rest of their life in a jail with no chance of them to get back to freedom.

And I mean jail and not a closed holiday appartment.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Thrawn on November 19, 2002, 02:39:33 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
Thrawn
the difference is a Soul,


There's the money shot!!

Quote
but as you do not believe in one, I can only guess there is no difference to you btwn a worm and a baby.

sorry to hear that


Of course there is a difference between a baby and a worm, don't be obsurde.

Kieran, you read right.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: lazs2 on November 19, 2002, 02:39:43 PM
babek... we do not have the kind of jails you describe here in the U.S.   they do not and never will exist.   I am not into torture.   put the sick diddlys out of their misery.
lazs
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: lazs2 on November 19, 2002, 02:43:27 PM
thrawn... surely there are forms of birth control other than castration?

The whole thing may be moot when a "morning after" pill is widely distributed that works with no side affects.   To each to deal with his own morality.
lazs
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Thrawn on November 19, 2002, 02:43:47 PM
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
Killing a sociopath puts him out of his misery and protects the lives of anyone else he may kill in the future.


Except when the sociopath is an innocent man.



Quote
Still.... no one here has told me at what point human life and, human rights starts.   I think we need to get that out of the way before we can even discuss "abortions"
lazs


I answered you the first time.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Kieran on November 19, 2002, 02:47:32 PM
Thrawn-

Well, in that case... I am the proud father of two tumors. One will be 6 next week, the other 12 at the end of December. At first we thought they were malignant, but with proper treatment and diet my wife was able to evacuate them with no invasive surgery required.

They're pretty smart, as tumors go. Not saying we have the cure for cancer (though imagine the irony!), but they seem to be coping well despite being somewhat less than human. I guess we (my wife and I) are just happy it worked out to be convenient enough for us to avoid surgery.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Kanth on November 19, 2002, 02:50:50 PM
LMAO!!! Damnit that's too much for a signature!!!
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: hardcase on November 19, 2002, 02:53:52 PM
My being against the death penalty has nothing to with the criminal. It harms any enlighten society. Our criminals did not grow up in a vacumn. They gave us plenty of warning,but we ignored it. We get the final product of our society and its tenets.

Ever seen a Swedish prison? They house men and women together in a household setting. They shop and cook their own meals for one thing.They are SOCIALIZED back into the society. Our method is punishment so that we release something worse. Those on death row, did not get their by themselves.

I for one do not want to be included with

AFGHANISTAN, ALGERIA, ANTIGUA AND BARBUDA, ARMENIA, BAHAMAS, BAHRAIN, BANGLADESH, BARBADOS, BELARUS, BELIZE, BENIN, BOTSWANA, BURUNDI, CAMEROON, CHAD, CHINA, COMOROS, CONGO (Democratic Republic), CUBA, DOMINICA, EGYPT, EQUATORIAL GUINEA, ERITREA, ETHIOPIA, GABON, GHANA, GUATEMALA, GUINEA, GUYANA, INDIA, INDONESIA, IRAN, IRAQ, JAMAICA, JAPAN, JORDAN, KAZAKSTAN, KENYA, KOREA (North), KOREA (South), KUWAIT, KYRGYZSTAN, LAOS, LEBANON, LESOTHO, LIBERIA, LIBYA, MALAWI, MALAYSIA, MAURITANIA, MONGOLIA, MOROCCO, MYANMAR, NIGERIA, OMAN, PAKISTAN, PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY, PHILIPPINES, QATAR, RWANDA, SAINT CHRISTOPHER & NEVIS, SAINT LUCIA, SAINT VINCENT & GRENADINES, SAUDI ARABIA, SIERRA LEONE, SINGAPORE, SOMALIA, SUDAN, SWAZILAND, SYRIA, TAIWAN, TAJIKISTAN, TANZANIA, THAILAND, TRINIDAD AND TOBAGO, TUNISIA, UGANDA, UNITED ARAB EMIRATES, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, UZBEKISTAN, VIET NAM, YEMEN, ZAMBIA, ZIMBABWE

Countries with death penalties for ordinary crimes..Amesty Internation web site.

HC
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Thrawn on November 19, 2002, 02:54:03 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Kieran
Thrawn-

Well, in that case... I am the proud father of two tumors.


Kieran, that's totally out of context and not fair at all.  I didn't call anyone's kid a tumour.

I compared fetus with tumors, in the sense that they are both human tissue and have no legal rights.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Kieran on November 19, 2002, 02:55:19 PM
Hey, my minor tumors don't have full rights either until they are twenty-one.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Kanth on November 19, 2002, 02:58:35 PM
Does that make them less human? (i'm not talking about the whole tumor thing, it's like the coma thing)

The fact that they have less rights until they are 18 or 21 and the fact that they don't have any rights when they are still globs has something in common imo.

Quote
Originally posted by Kieran
Hey, my minor tumors don't have full rights either until they are twenty-one.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Thrawn on November 19, 2002, 02:59:21 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Kieran
Hey, my minor tumors don't have full rights either until they are twenty-one.


No, but they have enough rights, that you can't kill them at will...unless you are very very carefull.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Reschke on November 19, 2002, 03:01:07 PM
Quote
Originally posted by hardcase
Any society that kills its prisoners is flawed. BTW..look at the countries that still have it on their books. It is not company any advanced society would want to be seen with.


I disagree there hardcase but that is why we live where we live. We have the right to disagree and voice our own opinions.

Sure of those countries that still have capital punishment on their law books there are some I would not want to be associated with. However if you think about those same countries that have it they have a lower murder rate due to the way those executions are handled I think. I don't think our society will ever allow someone to be publicly hanged/shot/electrocuted/gased/injected even when the person who committed the crime needs to be killed publicly.

JUST A HYPOTHETICAL THOUGHT HERE DON'T BLAST ME FOR IT!
For instance what happens with Osama Bin Laden? How can you prove he was the mastermind behind 9/11/01? How will you keep him locked up for the remainder of his natural life IF he is convicted?

Me personally I am all for letting him loose in Times Square and notifying the public of his location prior to releasing him. I think that would be a more suitable deterent but then you might have Hillary (Communist lover) Rodham Clintonista trying to stop her "fellow" New Yorkers from killing him. But that would just make it more appealing for collateral damage to me if she were in the vicinity. :D
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: hardcase on November 19, 2002, 03:01:23 PM
Kieran, your wife is lucky having you, she is lucky being with someone who loves her and children, educated, from a stable family for starters, my guess. Abortion would have never been an option with you two. To you two the idea is totally foreign. It is foreign because of your life. What if you were a wife beater, child beater. Would it be foreign to you wife then?  Not all women are so fortunate. Why, with it being foreign to you, ,do you want to impose the choice you made on someone else. Your choice came from priviledge, abortions come from a lack of privlege, income, education, oppurtunities, weak will character.

Life is not all flowers and sunlight for all.


BTW your children are not fetuse. Potential is only that,nothing more.


HC
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Kieran on November 19, 2002, 03:02:29 PM
I'm just goofing, really. The whole argument that a fetus isn't a human is just so... ludicrous.

If you really want to make the point for abortion to an ultra-conservative, broach the issue of birth control. How does religion and the Bible view birth control?
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Kieran on November 19, 2002, 03:04:26 PM
Quote
Me personally I am all for letting him loose in Times Square and notifying the public of his location prior to releasing him.


Or Berkley. They may want to hold a parade for him...
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: lazs2 on November 19, 2002, 03:04:37 PM
thrawn... i missed it..  when exactly is the unborn a human being.   I don't really know and would be glad to be enlightened... I tend to think that once it can survive without the mother it is human but will listen to any sensible answer... tumors is not a sensible answer.

hardcase... do any of those countries mentioned kill by leathal injection?   why do you think that it is not putting them out of their misery?   Certainly it will protect others that the sociopath may kill in the future.   I am not for killing inocent people.   As for how they got that way and what is the best way (if it is even possible) to rehabilitate them?   that has nothing to do with it.   The "failure" (if it is a failure) of society is allready done.   Kill off the unsavable ones and work on not creating new ones if there is indeed a way to prevent sociopaths.   Next you can work on curing child molesters.   good luck on both counts.   I certainly don't trust you to make sure they are never a problem agin tho.   Not at this point in time.
lazs
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Kieran on November 19, 2002, 03:07:44 PM
Quote
What if you were a wife beater, child beater.


Who says I'm not? Remember, I am one who spanks my children if/when they need it. 'Course I could also point out my step-father did beat me and my siblings... does that mean I should wish I had been aborted? (I know, some of you wish I had!)
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Eagler on November 19, 2002, 03:07:57 PM
Quote
Originally posted by hardcase
Kieran, your wife is lucky having you, she is lucky being with someone who loves her and children, educated, from a stable family for starters, my guess. Abortion would have never been an option with you two. To you two the idea is totally foreign. It is foreign because of your life. What if you were a wife beater, child beater. Would it be foreign to you wife then?  Not all women are so fortunate. Why, with it being foreign to you, ,do you want to impose the choice you made on someone else. Your choice came from priviledge, abortions come from a lack of privlege, income, education, oppurtunities, weak will character.

Life is not all flowers and sunlight for all.


BTW your children are not fetuse. Potential is only that,nothing more.


HC


what if you were 19 and she was 18, neither had an education past HS, neither had a job or two nickels to rub together, neither had parents who had a nickel to spare, you weren't married, you didn't own a car, furniture or have a place to live...

Abort right?

my abortion turns 24 Saturday and his abortion turned 2 last October - it's called character and responsibility for ones own actions.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Thrawn on November 19, 2002, 03:08:20 PM
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
thrawn... i missed it..  when exactly is the unborn a human being.   I tend to think that once it can survive without the mother it is human


That's exactly what I said.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: hardcase on November 19, 2002, 03:08:46 PM
A fetus is just a human fetus. It is not a human.

You want to end abortion? Fix the reasons that cause them. Till then, it is an imperfect world. Ask your wife if she can think of any life situation where she would get an abortion. Ask her would she feel protected if abortions were made illegal.

Men want to make the rules of a game they dont play.

HC
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Kanth on November 19, 2002, 03:10:19 PM
well, the argument isn't really that the fetus isn't human as in , it comes from some other animal..

 human is standing in for "human rights"

the fetus doesn't have the right to live. (like a human that has been born does, and a child does not have the right to self determination that an adult has)

That's the argument imo.



Quote
Originally posted by Kieran
I'm just goofing, really. The whole argument that a fetus isn't a human is just so... ludicrous.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Kieran on November 19, 2002, 03:14:43 PM
Yes it is, Kanth. It's precisely the argument the Pro-Choice have to make because it is too unsavory to say they are sacrificing the life of a human because it is inconvenient/painful/insert-whatever-reason to bring it to term. To say "yes, we know it is a person, but we are going to kill him/her anyway because _______" is too unpalatable. Better to argue "well, it isn't really a person yet, so killing it is ok."

BTW, no offense on the sig. :)
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Kieran on November 19, 2002, 03:16:53 PM
Then Thrawn... at what point is an abortion immoral? At how many weeks? Are you saying at any time, first trimester, second trimester?
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Thrawn on November 19, 2002, 03:18:00 PM
It becomes immoral when the child can live outside the uterus.

I glad you know why pro-choices have made their moral decisions better then they do themselves.

Pro-lifers don't seem to have any philosophy, morals or thoughts behind why a zygote is a human at all.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Eagler on November 19, 2002, 03:20:44 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
It becomes immoral when the child can live outside the uterus.


WOW

thats nine months - 8 to 12 lbs

your kidding right?
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Thrawn on November 19, 2002, 03:22:27 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
WOW

thats nine months - 8 to 12 lbs

your kidding right?


No it's not.  A child has a chance of serviving outside the womb at 5 months.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: H. Godwineson on November 19, 2002, 03:23:29 PM
One of my wife's tumors is now 18, 6'2" tall, and weighs 280 pounds.  It has learned to speak and will, hopefully, complete college.

Shuckins
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: hardcase on November 19, 2002, 03:26:53 PM
No, its called imposing your will on others because your character was more solid than theirs. Easy to pontificate from on high.


Did you take in any unwanted children that someone didnt abort?

You want to impose your values, but you dont want to pick up the consequences of that imposition. You wont vote to fund more money for prenatal care,child care,education, jobs creation, all the innumerable social programs needed for a single mother, to take to full term and raise a child.

How about the wife whose husband beats, abuses her, makes her life a living hell ,finds herself pregnant by him again. I guess you would, in your wisdom gained from trying to run others lives, would have her not abort?

That comes under personel choice doesnt it.

I assume you have no problem with rape, incest, health. One other group..those whose life is such a horror, that having a child is no longer a blessing but a threat.

You would have her reproduce someone who she hates with good reason. If I were her, I would refuse to reproduce with that piece of crap too. Maybe rthe women find the men totally worthless, themselves totally worthless. Children require faith in the future. Many women don't have that faith and with good reason.

Pro-Choice is HER choice.

HC
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Kieran on November 19, 2002, 03:27:40 PM
Quote
I glad you know why pro-choices have made their moral decisions better then they do themselves.


That one gets you the "Minus Award". I have no idea what this means, but it sounds good. No offense, but I am spinning this one trying to sort it out.

Quote
Pro-lifers don't seem to have any philosophy, morals or thoughts behind why a zygote is a human at all.


Interesting. Please elaborate.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: hardcase on November 19, 2002, 03:28:05 PM
Thats great. Lets talk about that unwanted child, you want to execute.

HC
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Kieran on November 19, 2002, 03:30:01 PM
Quote
How about the wife whose husband beats, abuses her, makes her life a living hell ,finds herself pregnant by him again. I guess you would, in your wisdom gained from trying to run others lives, would have her not abort?


Wanna guess why I had a step-father? You forgot to add "rape" to the end of that sentence. BTW, my mother had the girl, she was adopted, and is living a wonderful and productive life.

Did I mention my step-father was abusive? Does this mean I have to be aborted now, to save me from the years of torment I would suffer?
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Kieran on November 19, 2002, 03:33:59 PM
Yes, let's.

The unwanted child had a chance to make it. The unwanted child faced a world like the rest of us, made some bad choices and will now have to face the consequences.

Sure, we will get an "equal opportunity" argument now, but... really, what do you mean by "equal"?
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: mrfish on November 19, 2002, 03:34:25 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
the difference is a Soul


what soul? where is this 'soul' and what is it exactly? you don't know - it's just another of your wacky metaphysical opinions. the results of which pair unwated kids with unwilling parents or parent- yeah that's great guys. what's real is the problem unwanted kids will face.

what's broken in your common sense organ that prohibits you from distinguishing an unborn fetus from a person?

where are you when the problems start with this kid? your only advice would be 'trust in zambooby' or whatever your little imaginary friend's name is. man, you mystic wackos are getting tiresome -

:rolleyes:

why can't you people just go pray quietly somewhere and let the rest of us get on with it.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: hardcase on November 19, 2002, 03:35:41 PM
Your personel choice is yours. You get to make decisions for yourself. If I were a female you would not get to make decisions for me.



BTW someone asked about birth control or pregnancy out of wedlock in the bible. ..They called it stoning the squeak.

Still trying to practice it today..only more subtle.

HC
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Kanth on November 19, 2002, 03:38:39 PM
Here's may take on this.

Children basically have the rights of animals until they reach a certain age and then receive their full rights.  If that is okay, then I can follow the logic to see that a potential that isn't formed yet doesn't have any rights at all.

by this logic old people should have more rights given to them when they reach retirement age too, but they get screwed because like children, they can't fight back much. Like the fetus who cannot speak.

This is the allocation of rights in our society, if it can fight back, if it can be understood, then it gets more rights.

People in their prime get the most rights of all, people who have mental problems or are aged get less rights as do children, fetus who aren't even recognizable yet as human don't get rights..

women didn't have the rights of men up until recently, was it because they aren't as strong? you tell me.

does the fact that women now have rights signify any movement in our civilization towards consideration the weaker? I dunno possibly, and if so then the rights of the fetus will stand up in court some day.

 There are alot of perceptions in our society that would have to be changed in order to stop abortions..other than just saying YOU CAN'T HAVE ONE CAUSE I SAID SO. Because it will still happen when a mother doesn't want whats growing inside her for whatever reason.

simply assigning the fetus rights, jumps a huge gap in our thinking that has to be dealt with for these things to stop and we aren't there yet obviously.

As far as the death penalty goes, yes as long as they are absolutely sure. This prevents repeat offenders but does not discourage the criminal mind because many think they are too smart to get caught in the first place.

that's all the seriousness I got for now. :)

Quote
Originally posted by Kieran
Yes it is, Kanth. It's precisely the argument the Pro-Choice have to make because it is too unsavory to say they are sacrificing the life of a human because it is inconvenient/painful/insert-whatever-reason to bring it to term. To say "yes, we know it is a person, but we are going to kill him/her anyway because _______" is too unpalatable. Better to argue "well, it isn't really a person yet, so killing it is ok."

BTW, no offense on the sig. :)
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Kieran on November 19, 2002, 03:38:58 PM
That someone was me.

BTW, in spite of you saying I want to run your life, I don't. Tell your wife I don't want in her life either.

This is only my opinion on the issue, nothing more.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: hardcase on November 19, 2002, 03:43:26 PM
You can always find a good outcome, you find the bad outcomes in jail or the obits, living and abusing someone.


Bottom line...abortion is NOT your decision. Don't worry what someone else has to decide in their lives. You dont care about the fetus when it is born, it really is still the male dominate thing over females, the female didnt stone herself. Ever wonder why a women would think that being pregnant is such a horro that they would stick coat hangars into their wombs, go to back alley kitchen buthcers and die on the table. to risk death to abort a prenancy? Perhaps we should be female before we even begin to argue about a females rights.

HC
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Thrawn on November 19, 2002, 03:44:03 PM
I glad you know why pro-choices have made their moral decisions better then they do themselves.

minus -->  English

"It's precisely the argument the Pro-Choice have to make because it is too unsavory to say they are sacrificing the life of a human because it is inconvenient/painful/insert-whatever-reason to bring it to term. To say "yes, we know it is a person, but we are going to kill him/her anyway because _______" is too unpalatable. Better to argue "well, it isn't really a person yet, so killing it is ok." "

Don't tell me why I believe something.


"Interesting. Please elaborate."

Pro-choicer on this board have bent over backwords explaining why they hold their beliefs.

Pro-lifers have responded with, "Well that's just wrong.", "I believe it's a sin.", "Life starts a conception."

Why.

Why does a zygotes rights supercede that of the woman?
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Apache on November 19, 2002, 03:52:08 PM
Is a woman who was pregnant and aborted, considered a mother?
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Thrawn on November 19, 2002, 03:55:53 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Apache
Is a woman who was pregnant and aborted, considered a mother?


Not in my opinion.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Eagler on November 19, 2002, 03:56:10 PM
Quote
Originally posted by mrfish
what soul? where is this 'soul' and what is it exactly? you don't know - it's just another of your wacky metaphysical opinions. the results of which pair unwated kids with unwilling parents or parent- yeah that's great guys. what's real is the problem unwanted kids will face.

what's broken in your common sense organ that prohibits you from distinguishing an unborn fetus from a person?

where are you when the problems start with this kid? your only advice would be 'trust in zambooby' or whatever your little imaginary friend's name is. man, you mystic wackos are getting tiresome -

:rolleyes:

why can't you people just go pray quietly somewhere and let the rest of us get on with it.


hey - he wanted to know the diff. In my book, that's it. Though I do believe in some sort of animal kingdom kinda spirt sense, american indian sort of thing..

promise to look me up and I you over there and we'll see who was right about "zamboody" all along :)

Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: 2Slow on November 19, 2002, 04:09:35 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Gh0stFT
We dont have it here, the death penalty, but anyway
if we had the death penalty here, I always asked myself:
would I execute a Murder with my own hands ?
Its easy to say yes to death penalty as long as you dont
have to do the dirt job ?
Would you do it ?


Yes I would.  Pull the trigger, the lever, or throw the switch.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Kanth on November 19, 2002, 05:26:44 PM
If she has any living children she is.

Quote
Originally posted by Apache
Is a woman who was pregnant and aborted, considered a mother?
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Kieran on November 19, 2002, 05:28:02 PM
Not trying to make you angry, Thrawn, but I do wonder how you can relate a fetus to a tumor. And who's talking about rights, anyway? And... do you think the right to life supercedes the rights of the mother.

It's an interesting quandry, isn't it? You can argue killing a criminal is criminal AND argue that killing a fetus isn't really killing a person. I can argue killing a criminal is OK and  killing a fetus isn't. It's a moral choice to be sure, and I have to be comfortable with the choice I make within my own set of morals. I do want you to understand, I don't march in Pro-Life rallies or post signs in my yard. If you are going to have an abortion that is the choice you make. I can say it isn't the choice I'd make, and that's all.

And Hardcase, read the previous line carefully; I've never tried to tell you and your wife what to do. That thought pretty much mischaracterizes my feelings on the issue.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Kieran on November 19, 2002, 05:28:44 PM
BTW, Kanth that was a very good post. S!
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: AKS\/\/ulfe on November 19, 2002, 06:25:05 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Kieran
If you are going to have an abortion that is the choice you make. I can say it isn't the choice I'd make, and that's all.


So then, afterall that, we arrive at square 1... I completely agree with that.

Kieran, sorry if I came of angry.. I was simply agitated from RL. My apologies.
-SW
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Thrawn on November 19, 2002, 06:43:16 PM
A relative is mine is adpoted, his mother didn't bear him but she is still his mother.  Raising a child makes you a mother or father, in my books anyways.

H. Godwinson, women that use abortion as a form of contraceptive are irresponsible amazinhunks in my books.  But, just because they are amazinhunks doesn't mean they should have their rights taken away.

Quote
Thrawn, but I do wonder how you can relate a fetus to a tumor.


A tumour is a biological growth that your body produces, as is a fetus.  That's my comparison.  I'm not saying anything more then that.  It's just a comparison.


Quote
who's talking about rights, anyway?


I thought women's rights versus fetus's rights was what the pro-life, pro-choice arguement was about.


Quote
And... do you think the right to life supercedes the rights of the mother.


Difficult to saying anything about this with out knowing exactly what you mean by "right to life".


Quote
It's a moral choice to be sure, and I have to be comfortable with the choice I make within my own set of morals.


That's exactly what it is.  I haven't heard any arguement as to why pro-life people believe that a human being is a human being at conception though.

As for the death penalty the only arguement that is defendable is that it's societie's revenge pure and simple.  No has yet proven that it is an effective deterrant, and the economic arrguement works against captial punishment.  And I think a society that kills it's own citizens is barbaric.


Quote
If you are going to have an abortion that is the choice you make. I can say it isn't the choice I'd make, and that's all.


That's a pro-choice standpoint, not a pro-life one.  The pro-choice has room for women who are against abortion, if they are against it then they don't have to have one.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Kieran on November 19, 2002, 06:58:28 PM
Remember, I am conservative. I may not see the world the way you or anyone else does, but I also hold that I don't have the right to tell you how to live, or to make you accountable to me in any way. Don't confuse my personal stance on an issue as me trying to tell you what to do. That goes for drugs, alcohol, tobacco, abortion, gun control, etc. I don't think as a rule the government should get involved in issues that are not of grievous societal import.

And SW? Don't sweat it. I can't name a single BBS patron that doesn't have a bad day now and then.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: NUKE on November 19, 2002, 07:19:17 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
If the death penalty is a deterant, why don't the states with capital punishment have the lowest incidence of homocides?


You mean states like  Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia?

The difference is that in the US, we wait 20 years before we off 'em.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Thrawn on November 19, 2002, 07:53:50 PM
Quote
Originally posted by NUKE
You mean states like  Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia?

The difference is that in the US, we wait 20 years before we off 'em.


Now that's a good point.  But, how many innocent people do you think they kill in a year?  And would you like to see your country become more like Iraq, Iran and Saudie Arabia?
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Kanth on November 19, 2002, 09:16:00 PM
Thank you K ! =)

Quote
Originally posted by Kieran
BTW, Kanth that was a very good post. S!
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: thrila on November 19, 2002, 09:23:05 PM
Several months ago when having sex with my ex-girlfriend the condom had split.  Neither of us want children, she's a 17yr old student studying very hard to get good grades for Uni and i don't want any kids until i get a decent job (and older).  In the morning we marched off to the pharmacy and bought the morning after pill- £60 it was too! :eek:


So i guess i'm an evil murderer eh?
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: mietla on November 19, 2002, 10:03:32 PM
If she is 17 and you are over 18 (don't know whether you are or not), aren't you in a trouble legally?
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: mietla on November 19, 2002, 10:04:13 PM
nm
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Sandman on November 19, 2002, 10:07:05 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
The womans "right to decide" happens way before the sperm and the egg unite.

After that, it ain't her call.


It's certainly not my call... or yours.

That leaves... who?
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: funkedup on November 19, 2002, 10:12:36 PM
Quote
Originally posted by thrila
Several months ago when having sex with my ex-girlfriend the condom had split.  Neither of us want children, she's a 17yr old student studying very hard to get good grades for Uni and i don't want any kids until i get a decent job (and older).  In the morning we marched off to the pharmacy and bought the morning after pill- £60 it was too! :eek:


So i guess i'm an evil murderer eh?


No, that pill prevents conception.  It does not cause an abortion.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Dowding (Work) on November 20, 2002, 02:33:25 AM
Wrong Funked - that pill prevents a fertilised egg from embedding on the uterus wall. Know as 'the morning after pill'. Since Christian types believe conception is the start of life, I guess we are all murdering bastiges. :rolleyes:

It is not 'the pill', which has been around since the 60s.

BTW thrila, you were ripped off mate. Last time I had to buy the morning after pill (I wasn't taking it, before there are any wisecracks) it was £20 not £60. ;)

Wrong Mietla - The age of consent in Britain is 16 - it is perfectly legal to have sex with someone who is over that consensual age, even if you are over 18. From 16 onwards, in the eyes of the law, a girl/woman is able to give consent.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Kieran on November 20, 2002, 06:15:16 AM
Quote
Since Christian types believe conception is the start of life, I guess we are all murdering bastiges.


Ah, good. I was afraid we wouldn't take a swipe at religion. Thanks.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: BUG_EAF322 on November 20, 2002, 06:40:42 AM
Do we man decide for women what's best ???

That would be fediddlein arrogant.



:mad: :mad: :mad:
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: bounder on November 20, 2002, 06:43:06 AM
Many other forms of female contraceptive pill also work by preventing implantation of even fertilised eggs. The morning after pill, or drugs like methotrexate (sp?) serve to induce a rejection of successfully implanted cells.

Is forcing a rejection different to preventing implantion? If not then millions and millions of women the world over are aborting their children every day, in addition to those using morning after pills, or undergoing abortions.

Plato used to assert that parents should have the right of life and death over their offspring until they were aged thirty...

Those of us who favour controlled abortion over a complete ban should give up trying to split hairs over when a blastocyte becomes a zygote becomes a fetus becomes a baby becomes a human . Accept that humans start at conception.

Which means it's really just a question of how squeamish we are, not what specific age the blob becomes a bloke (or bird).

To me the argument turns on the question of whether life is is some way 'sacred'. Looking at the evidence around me in the world today, I would say not. Our grief for recently deceased is in direct proportion to our bond with them.

As for the death penalty

YES.

Execution for murder is a strong Christian tenet (Exodus v21(?) the whole bit with "an eye for an eye") that has been with us ever since it was written, and probably before. It's one of several 'laws of natural justice' enshrined in the bible and others.

BUT it should be reciprocal.
If a man is convicted and executed and later found to be innocent, his grieving family are owed exactly one life.

They should be legally entitled to execute the judge or a member of his surviving family who passed the sentence.

That would certainly be a deterrent against passing the death sentence on an innocent man, but the guilty would hang.

A whole new definition of 'irrefutable proof' would take place.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Thrawn on November 20, 2002, 08:41:21 AM
How is execution Chrsitian?  I can see it being Jewish.  "Thou shalt not murder.", and all, implying that legal killing isn't a sin.

But doesn't the word of Christ supercede the old Testament for Christians?

Didn't Christ say turn  the other cheek?

It seems to me that some Christians follow the word of Christ until it becomes inconvienient, they then disregard his word and follow the old testament.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: lazs2 on November 20, 2002, 08:51:44 AM
"what if you were 19 and she was 18, neither had an education past HS, neither had a job or two nickels to rub together, neither had parents who had a nickel to spare, you weren't married, you didn't own a car, furniture or have a place to live...

Abort right? "

well... this get's right to it..  it describes the situation exactly with my first born son.   In those days... there was no abortion that was legal or, allmost none.   It was not an option.   I sucked it up and married the woman and paid for my son through marrage and divorce.   It worked out for the best for everyone especially my son and his family and all the people he touches.  

now... in the day.... when abortion was so difficult there were tragedies but... there wasn't some huge birth explosion like you would expect given the number of abortions we have now.   Whjy is that?   People are different?   How so?  I was there and I'm still alive.. maybe it is the social engineering that has caused the problem?   certainly the amount of abortions performed are directly or indirectly responsible for far more "tragedies" than ever occured before abortion on demand?   Perhaps something more in the middle is in order?  Perhaps people would act somewhat more responsibly if there were some consequence to not?

thrawn... are you saying that an abortion after about 5 months (more or less) is murder?   I would tend to agree..  Killing prisoners is "murder" too but the cause is just and I feel the tradeoff (him not killing again and possible deterance) is well worth it... I feel that maybe saving the mothers life is a good tradeoff for a late term abortin but other than that...  
lazs
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Dowding (Work) on November 20, 2002, 08:57:15 AM
Why is it a swipe at religion? Isn't conception the start of life according to Christians? Some people on this board have already called the act of abortion 'murder'. The morning after pill aborts a perfectly viable, fertilised egg - it might be called abortion. Ergo, I am an accomplice to a murder! The only thing more ridiculous than that scenario is your own insistence that it's perfectly alright to write comment like this:

Quote
Conservatives allow fetuses to grow and screw their own lives up before aborting them. Liberals abort the fetuses because the mother screwed up.


...but the minute anyone criticizes your beliefs, you act like someone with a monumental martyr complex. If you can't take it Kieran, I suggest you refrain from giving it out.

Personally, I'm happy with abortion before the CNS is developed. Afterwards, I find it less acceptable unless rape is involved or the pregnancy is in danger of killing the woman. Abortion for birth control is not something I'm too comfortable, but rather that than some kid who's going to be neglected and unloved.

The 'morning after pill' is perfectly acceptable IMO.

Above all, give women the choice and let's have some real 'personal responsibility'. I thought conservatives were generally against a 'nanny State'?
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Kieran on November 20, 2002, 09:12:49 AM
Quote
How is execution Chrsitian? I can see it being Jewish.


Execution is Christian- did you miss the part of the Bible in Revelation where judgement is discussed? Isn't eternal damnation an execution of sorts?

Bear in mind Jesus did not change God's mind about things. God instructed his people to execute criminals, and they did. Jesus warned "I am not changing a single word that was written" regarding God. The most important thing Jesus did was to become the ultimate sacrifice. This did away with animal sacrifice, but it did not do away with all law.

"Turn the other cheek"? That has to be one of the most misapplied quotes from Jesus. This doesn't mean let people walk all over you, it means be slow to take offense. It certainly doesn't mean you don't hold people accountable for their actions. Christians are supposed to forgive people that wrong them. They aren't supposed to ignore criminal activity. Big difference, and something that always seems to be overlooked.

Quote
It seems to me that some Christians follow the word of Christ until it becomes inconvienient, they then disregard his word and follow the old testament.


While no doubt true, it does not shore up your argument against the death penalty. "Some Christians don't practice their faith properly = death penalty is wrong" is not a valid equation.

Dowding-

Quote
Since Christian types believe conception is the start of life, I guess we are all murdering bastiges.  :rolleyes:


Look familiar? Looks like a swipe to me, though it is hard to tell, what with me dealing with my persecution and all. Maybe you meant it as a compliment and I misread it.

BTW, I've already said earlier in the thread that is the real issue, and the way to win the argument against Pro-Life advocates.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Thrawn on November 20, 2002, 09:15:51 AM
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
thrawn... are you saying that an abortion after about 5 months (more or less) is murder?


Yes.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Kieran on November 20, 2002, 09:16:51 AM
Fair enough, Dowding.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Dowding (Work) on November 20, 2002, 09:17:01 AM
I just finished editing my post as you posted your last one - I think it goes some way to answering your points.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Kieran on November 20, 2002, 09:22:00 AM
My last one LAST one, or the last one before the LAST one? ;)

You're right, I should have let the comment pass. Too sensitive on my part.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Dowding (Work) on November 20, 2002, 09:23:23 AM
Heh - it is confusing. :)
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Thrawn on November 20, 2002, 09:24:08 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Kieran
Execution is Christian- did you miss the part of the Bible in Revelation where judgement is discussed? Isn't eternal damnation an execution of sorts?


This is the only point, within your christian framework. that I couldn't reconcile.  

Sure eternal damnation is an execution of sorts.  But god isn't about to make any mistakes in this regard.  Infallability and all.

Vengence is mine, sayeth the lord.  Doesn't that imply that it's your god's domain?  Might be misquoting here.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Kieran on November 20, 2002, 09:30:04 AM
I don't think it is up to the individual to judge, I agree. But no less than Moses recognized the impossibility of functioning in society without some sort of "panel". It might be arguable to say the wise elders selected by Moses amounted to a jury of sorts. That's a stretch of course, but the point is judgement is necessary where people are concerned.

So... how do you make judgements? Our jury system is a pretty good compromise, where you have to convince a number of people before guilt can be assessed. It makes mistakes, but far fewer than if a sole person made the choice. On the issue of consequences, well... God did pretty much lay out the consequences for specific actions. Putting the two together is not at all a leap.
Title: sry - gotta plug PP while we're at it
Post by: Eagler on November 20, 2002, 09:40:38 AM
"Planned Parenthood" - what a play on words..

==========================================
Every day of the year, Planned Parenthood persuades 540 women to agree to let them kill their unborn babies. If you or someone you  know thinks Planned Parenthood is a good organization that helps poor married couples space the births of their children, nothing could be further from the truth. Planned Parenthood (PP) is the leading promoter and the largest single provider of abortions in our country.

   Here are some other facts you may not know about this prominent member of the abortion industry:

      In 2000 PP took in a record $69 million by performing
      abortions one-third of  their total income.

      For every adoption referral, they aborted 79 babies.

      Since 1995, the number of PP abortions has increased  
      a whopping  41%.

      From 1985 through 2000, PP has received nearly 2.2
      billion tax dollars
.

      PP president, Gloria Feldt, receives a salary of
      $324,217 a year. <- not bad money for a baby butcher

===========================================
some more stats:

(AP) - Number of abortions per state in 1996, with the rate per 1,000 women:

 
Alabama 13,826, 14
Alaska 2,139, 15
Arizona 11,016, 11
Arkansas 5,882, 11
California 280,180, 39
Colorado 9,710, 11
Connecticut 14,094, 20
Delaware 4,482, 26
District of Columbia 13,674, NA
Florida 80,040, 27
Georgia 35,790, 20
Hawaii 4,916, 19
Idaho 1,022, 4
Illinois 53,613, 20
Indiana 13,341, 10
Iowa 7,602, 12
Kansas 10,685, 19
Kentucky 7,000, 8
Louisiana 11,865, 12
Maine 2,615, 9
Maryland 12,363, 10
Massachusetts 29,293, 21
Michigan 30,208, 14
Minnesota 14,193, 13
Mississippi 4,206, 7
Missouri 11,629, 10
   
Montana 2,763, 15
Nebraska 5,214, 14
Nevada 6,965, 20
New Hampshire 2,300, 8
New Jersey 31,860, 18
New Mexico 5,033, 13
New York 152,991, 37
North Carolina 33,554, 20
North Dakota 1,291, 9
Ohio 36,530, 15
Oklahoma 6,769, 10
Oregon 13,767, 20
Pennsylvania 38,004, 15
Rhode Island 5,437, 24
South Carolina 9,326, 11
South Dakota 901, 6
Tennessee 17,989, 15
Texas 91,470, 21
Utah 3,639, 8
Vermont 2,139, 16
Virginia 25,770, 16
Washington 26,138, 21
West Virginia 2,470, 6
Wisconsin 13,673, 12
Wyoming 208, 2
Total 1,221,585, 20

 
Source: Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
 
so every 20 out of 1000 women in 1996 had one - nah, it ain't birth control

that was 6 years ago, wonder how bad it has exploded since then ...

:(
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Kieran on November 20, 2002, 09:48:12 AM
Eagler-

Seriously, I am a conservative too, but I have to ask... assuming you are married, I can safely assume you and your wife use a contraceptive, right?
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Eagler on November 20, 2002, 09:53:35 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Kieran
Eagler-

Seriously, I am a conservative too, but I have to ask... assuming you are married, I can safely assume you and your wife use a contraceptive, right?


Yes, you assume correctly

and ?
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Kieran on November 20, 2002, 09:55:56 AM
The point is that Planned Parenthood does provide a low-cost alternative to young couples that otherwise could not afford birth control.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Eagler on November 20, 2002, 10:05:05 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Kieran
The point is that Planned Parenthood does provide a low-cost alternative to young couples that otherwise could not afford birth control.


1/3 of there income is from abortions, is this the "low cost alternative"?

I am sure they provide some good but wonder if it out weighs the bad
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: AKS\/\/ulfe on November 20, 2002, 11:33:52 AM
Eagler, they aren't your fetii. Why do you care so much what someone else does?
-SW
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Wlfgng on November 20, 2002, 11:44:09 AM
beat me to it...
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Rude on November 20, 2002, 11:52:11 AM
Quote
Originally posted by hardcase
Criminal rolled the dice..remember now, he is one of those precisous lives that get ignored once they are born. He was not born wanting to kill. How did he get there? I dont think you can be pro life and pro death, simply because the one you want to kill, is precious. He is alive. These are you arguments against abortion.

No wait.....he asked for it, so we can whump his ass...but wait..the mother asked for it too, right? So we can whump her ass. We christians sure like our bellybutton whumpings.  By God, diddly up and disobey what we obey and we will whump yo' bellybutton too.

So, lets look at what you obey....the history of a a 4 thousand year old middle eastern desert patriarchial philosophy based on total submission to the father, to the point Abe was gonna gut his son cause "god told him to"(today that excuse still gets you executed).  The idea that someone knows best for another is a bit to parental for me, based on the notion that what you believe somehow gives you the right to impose your belief system  on others.

Hundreds of millions have died by others attempts to impose their will. Time to learn.

HC


The ultimate whumpin will not come by the hands of men.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Eagler on November 20, 2002, 12:17:28 PM
Quote
Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Eagler, they aren't your fetii. Why do you care so much what someone else does?
-SW


I really don't, it is a way to cleanse the gene pool

Just looking at the bigger picture as it pertains to the state of the world & man's consciousness

I don't see it as a positive step towards mans enlightenment, actually a step towards a deeper darkness
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Kanth on November 20, 2002, 12:30:34 PM
Finally..... I've been waiting for this the whole thread!  :D

Quote
Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
fetii.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: lazs2 on November 20, 2002, 02:53:01 PM
thrawn.. for the first time ever I think we agree with each other... abortion at 5 mos or more is murder.    I haven't really decided about before that yet.   I don't think a pill that doesn't allow sperm to attach to the egg or whatever is murder tho... in between those two is a VERY large gray area.  
lazs
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Dowding (Work) on November 20, 2002, 03:24:26 PM
The 'morning after pill' prevents a fertillised egg from embedding in the womb. It could be considered a form of abortion.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Thrawn on November 20, 2002, 03:30:09 PM
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
thrawn.. for the first time ever I think we agree with each other


Oh...well then, I change my mind.  :D
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: lazs2 on November 21, 2002, 08:28:47 AM
I bet you have to do that a lot.
lazs
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: BNM on December 23, 2002, 01:04:55 PM
Death penalty for the convicted. Yes

Abortion for ANY reason. No
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: AKIron on December 23, 2002, 01:32:15 PM
I'm all for abolishing the death penalty, soon as we abolish murder.
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: BUG_EAF322 on January 19, 2003, 02:58:31 PM
Anyone of u ever chanced mind ???

I guess not
Title: Death Penalty... yes or no?
Post by: Maverick on January 19, 2003, 04:21:22 PM
Please note that I have not read the posts on this thread past the first one. I do not feel the need to see them as I have my own opinions based on experiance.

I am still for the death penalty. I have been around some of these folks and really see no reason to warehouse them. I know that there are mistakes made but feel the vast majority are truly guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. The homicides I was involved in investigating were the standard ones where the victim knew the suspect and it was a no doubt situation. After having to "work" with these people I have no desire to keep them around.

For those who think all these folks are just misunderstood and railroaded, you are beyone comprehension. You need to spend some "quality" time with them.

Now flame away if you want. I won't be paying much attention to it at all since damn few of you have had the experiances I have had with these predators.