Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Dowding (Work) on November 20, 2002, 09:31:14 AM
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I've always wanted to learn to fly. But that can't happen so I'm looking for the next best thing.
Now, ever since I was a kid I've wanted an R/C aircraft. But my parents always said no - it was too expensive and they wouldn't buy me one. I was so under-priviledged. ;)
Now I'm 24, and I'm kind of going through a 'I'll buy the things I never had as a kid' stage. I almost bought an Operation Wolf coin-op machine the other month - but decided that the money would be better spent on stuff for my new apartment. It would also make me look like a bit of a sad-act.
Anyway, there's an R/C club near me and I'm thinking of going up and checking it out. What kind of plane would be suitable. I really want a WW1 bi-plane - something like the Flair SE5a I've seen. It says it's very forgiving but does that mean it will be suitable for a complete novice like me? Flair also make a cub training plane, and while it looks good, I'd much prefer the SE5. :)
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Between the two, the Cub is the better trainer by far. Neither one would be animals, but building would be much harder for the SE5 (especially if you rig it). Add to that the complexity of assembly at the field, cleanup, etc.
More... how heavy is each one? The SE5 would probably need a bigger (and more expensive) engine. And if the engine dies on you, the Cub will stretch far better to the field than the biplane.
As far as biplanes are concerned the SE5 is a great choice- it is proportioned well for an R/C model, it has a long nose (meaning no nose weight will be necessary), and it has generous wing area.
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Cheers Kieran. :)
Would I need a well kitted out workshop for this kind of thing?
I understand that 'built-up' planes require the wing 'ribs' (for want of a better word and not knowing the terminology) to be perfectly aligned and distanced for the wing shape to be correct - how difficult is that - or am I getting confused with full sized plane kit building?
The website says the SE5a weighs 6 lbs (I assume that's purely the kit) and the cub 4.5 lbs.
Also, the Cub has the option of buying ready made foam wings.
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I believe all that is absolutely essential is a flat area approximately 6' long and 3' wide on which to build. Find yourself an old door- they are generally not twisted- and lay it on a workbench. You'll need straight pins, wax paper, sandpaper, CA glue, #11 exacto blades and knife, some 5-minute epoxy, and a ventilated area. Aside from that you merely need patience.
Reading plans isn't typically difficult. The framing of the wings and fuse usually involves nothing more complicated than laying the parts directly over spot on the plans, pinning, and gluing.
One thing that will make the biplane a little harder is you'll have to worry about the incidence of both wings. The cabanes may be pre-made, but if not, you'll be soldering some, and you have to be very careful on that one.
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Regarding foam wings vs. built-up...
Foam wings are strong, easy to prepare, and true to shape. They are however heavier and much harder to repair. In addition I would be curious as to how the anchors for the struts are put in place. Could be there will be nothing more than a basswood block inserted into the foam with epoxy. I don't know how much I would trust that if it truly was going to bear any stress.
If you are interested in Cubs, Goldberg makes an excellent kit that is a snap to build, and is a real kite.
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Why not start out with something from Tower Hobbies and their ARF section (Almost Ready to Fly)....for a few hundred US dollars, you can get plane, radio, servos and see if its for you.
Personally, Im into rockets...someday I wanna attach them to a plane :D
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I never cared for ARFs- the building was half the fun.
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Originally posted by LePaul
Why not start out with something from Tower Hobbies and their ARF section (Almost Ready to Fly)....for a few hundred US dollars, you can get plane, radio, servos and see if its for you.
Personally, Im into rockets...someday I wanna attach them to a plane :D
Oh man, the thousands $$ I spent on Estes rockets in the 70's....
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LOL...trust me, I know...I finally sold my BD-5 I'd had for 2 years...building aint easy! (Thems a LOT of parts to rivet!)
But if he's looking to try it out, better to spend less money and see if its for him before going all out on bigger planes, etc
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Oh man, the thousands $$ I spent on Estes rockets in the 70's....
Well Rip, we can use the money we used to use for haircuts and get back into it! :p
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Dowding,
What you need to do is buy a trainer plane. Yes they might be ugly and cant do a whole hell of alot of manuevers, BUT THEY WILL SAVE YOU MONEY. The club I fly at see's many, many, new guys coming to the club that have never flown before or have very limited experience and have spent hundreds of dollars on warbirds,bi planes etc. Within not even 1 min airborne they crash them. Even with a trainer plane, you need to visit the club and have someone teach you to fly. It took me all about 1 hour to learn to fly my 1st plane A TRAINER PLANE, on a buddy box with a trainer. You will piss off alot of the members at the club if you go out there having never flown without guidance. Every club has its own rules that you must abide by. I made the HUGE mistake of thinking that I could fly a T-6 texan after only training on my trainer plane for 2 weeks. Well its a far different experience that the trainer was, and I ended up crashing her after 2 flights. SO
in summary. Do not the a Piper Cub, contrary to what the other gent said. Piper cubs are not all that easy to fly, they do have a high wing BUT NO DIHEDRAL, the dihedral is what saves your bellybutton in R/C.
GET A TRAINER PLANE 1st !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MASTER THAT
PROGRESS TO A LOW WING PLANE TRAINER(example a world models super sport $100, and flies like a dream
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1st plane needs to be something like this
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXK967**&P=0
or this
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXCXF4**&P=0
then progress to this
http://www.airborne-models.com/html/sport40.html
and then you need all the field support equipment, which you can get in a bundle like this, then you need gas
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXL419&P=7
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http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXMU53**&P=7
This is the best trainer, it does everything the others do but has a semi-symetrical wing so it flies better and has much greater overall capabilities to learn manuvers, inverted flight etc.
This is the plane you should get.
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Dowding,
Also I might add, dont even think of building that sae5, that is an advanced model for advanced modelrs. If you want to build your own from a kit. Do yourself a favor and buy a cheap one. There are several kits that can be had for $30, the biggest tendency and thing that pisses me off most about guys wanting to get into r/c. IS that they think they can hop in with both feet and a big wallet, with no experience and say "I'm gonna build a warbird, and fly it" Sorry mate but it doesnt happen that way. You absolutely need to start out with a cheap bellybutton trainer ARF, hell some people cant even build an ARF correctly, much less piece together a bunch of sticks, sheet it, monokote, or glass it know how to install an engine and tune it the right way. Just go to the club get a cheap bellybutton ARF trainer, get a mentor or club trainer. Every club has one, if its not a "club trainer" there will be someone there with experience that will train you, not just to fly the thing, but how to tune the engine, preflight checks, postflight checks etc. This will make the hobby MUCH MUCH MUCH more enjoyable. Dont make the mistake that 80% of the people that I see taking up the hobby do, and that is Spend toejamloads of cash with no experience, crash their plane and say this hobby sucks its too expensive, and then quit.
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Anyone remember the Senior Falcon? Goldberg model I think....it was my first. I used to tow my buddies gliders with it:)
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i use to have an r/c sea plane until i hit a bird and crashed it into the lake. havent had the money to buy a new one.
damn birds shouldnt have been flying so low.
comradII
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Guys,
Anyone that can't fly a Goldberg Cub shouldn't be flying at all. Sorry, those things are popsiclecats. The hard part is getting them off the ground (taildragger), but I certainly wouldn't describe that as hard. Landing is simplicity itself.
The Goldberg Senior Falcon was a stout design, high-wing and light. That and the Eagle are both excellent trainers, but the Cub is just as easy to fly.
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I've kept away from R/C....guy locally had a Byron ducted fan F-15....OMG....Fast!
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Personally, here is what I would do to get started.
First and foremost, it can cost an arm and a leg to get into the R/C hobby. When starting, I would go cheap first, just to make sure you really want to stay with it.
1) Visit that R/C club and talk to them. Go out and watch and listen to them. One of them will probably eventually offer to help you learn the art of flying R/C.
2) Start with a durable, cheap, slow model. Do not get all hopped up about building your own. Worst thing I have ever seen is a new guy who brings out his plane and dumps it on take-off. It really hurts.
3) I would look for some used R/C controls and the R/C club can help you with that. Once you figure you are really going to stay with it, then invest in the good stuff.
Just take it slow and easy. This is an expensive hobby and not for everyone. Figure a good setup will eventually set you back a couple of grand to start and several hundred a year to maintain and fly.
Good luck!
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Thanks for the detailed advice, guys, I appreciate it. :)
I'd guessed that most beginners end up buying expensive kit only to destroy out of inexperience. It is tempting to splash out and think you can master it within a couple of hours.
I think I'll follow the advice given and check out the club first. Maybe they have a trainer plane for me to check out.
Cheers .:)
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What Skuzzy said...Also,find out from the R/C club where the best hobby store is,even if it is a bit of a drive away from the closest.
Lots of great ARF's out there now,takes a lot of pain out of learning.Here is an advanced ARF trainer I bought this summer for $120...:D
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You might consider a small Park-Flyer electric to start with... minimal building, lots of flying, and since they are small and very light they don't get crunched as bad when you mess up. They tend to just bounce.
Best flyer and best value outta all the park flyers is the GWS Tiger Moth.
Link To Pilot report on the Moth (http://www.backyardflyer.com/BY/articles/tiger_moth.asp)
(http://www.backyardflyer.com/BY/Images/articles/tigermoth/lead.jpg)
We fly 'em indoors at a school gym buring the winter months.. can you say full contact COMBAT? :D Mines been glued and taped so many times we call it 'Frankenstein".. a bottle of oderless CA and a charger and 2 extra packs and we can keep it in the air damn near all night. Best part is, yer flying fer a fraction of what 'fuel' R/C costs, and you get all the right skills before you finish that 'big' model.
Be prepared to repair what you fly.. if you can't handle the concept of a crash as yer learning, you'll be well advised to take up model trains, stamp collecting or building plastic static models. ;)
Good luck!
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listen to hangtime....he is the "shizznit" of R/C .
trust me....anyone that can poke the gear through the top of 10 million dollar wings and laugh about it....know's his stuff ;)
right hang!? :D
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Cheers guys. I'll check that out Hangtime. $55 is only about 30 quid. Although I'd have to buy the controller on top of that.
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anybody tells yah R/C is cheap is lying to yah.
Mason... eat my shorts. ;)
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My Dad was an avid RC flyer until ill health recently put a stop to it :( I always flew contol line, combat being my main passion, (Not as far to walk to pick up the bits) :D.
I'm currently setting up an old PC for him and came across this.... http://n.ethz.ch/student/mmoeller/fms/index_e.html (About a 5.9mb download)
It has it's limitations sure but it's by far the best RC simulator I have ever come across (And It's free) :) Although you need to run it at at least 1280*1024 resolution for a good effect. It has interfaces for Keyboard, Multiple Joysticks and connection to your favourite RC transmitter (Instructions on webpage). Just the thing for those rainy Sundays (And cheaper on the balsawood as well).
TTFN
snafu
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Lots of good advice here, Dowding...
My own preference would be to build a balsa glider with a 6 foot wing span (several good ones to choose from), and mount an .049 engine with elevator and rudder control to start with. (But I like to build ;))
One benifit to building is that you will know exactly how to repair it when you crash.
To experience what it is like to control an RC airplane, there are some RC Flight sims available, with demos... try this: RC FLIGHT SIM (http://www.realflight.com/) This can save you a lot of crashes...
G'luck :)
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My 2 cents:
Don't buy a tiny plane. Nothing against hangtime's advice, but a larger plane will be more stable and easier to see.
Don't try to buy a trainer that "looks like anything". I've trained a dozen people and here's what I've found to look for:
High wing
semi-symmetrical wing with ailerons
Recommended .40 engine (kit will say from .25 to .40)
strong Tricycle landing gear
I learned on a taildragger and frankly prefer them myself because nosewheels are always getting bent and they're a pain in the bellybutton to align and install compared to taildraggers, but some people just can't figure out the taildraggers. Taildraggers will weigh a little less too.
I STRONGLY recommend getting a kit. ARF's have been getting better, but they are generally heavier than planes you build yourself, construction quality is occasionally non-existent (I've seen ARF firewalls held on by 2 dime-sized spots of epoxy!) and if you tear the covering of an ARF you often can't patch the hole with conventional heat-shrink covering because ARFs' are often covered by what is essentially a big vinyl sticker.
Also, if you get a kit you'll know exactly what part does what, how the plane is built, and when it breaks (not IF, WHEN), you will know exactly how to fix it.
That's my 2 cents. Oh yea, a plane recommendation... I learned on a great planes trainer .20. It was nice but maybe a little small, so a great planes trainer 40 would be a nice trainer. Also, always always always put the biggest recommended engine on the plane especially if you don't live at sea-level. You will appreciate the power later on and it can help get you out of trouble.
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Any good modern ARF today will come covered in real covering like Monokote or Ultracote. Only cheap and/or outdated ARFs today and ARFs up to the mid 1990s had this shelf paper sticky back garbage.
I recomend an ARF trainer. In fact an ARF will likely be lighter than it's kit counterpart because most kits today are too old in design and were designed to crash, not to fly. They are designed the way they were in the 1980s or 1970s, way overbuilt and too heavy.
The Avistar ARF I reccomended is big enough 60inch wingspan, light, its strong, its well built has a semi-symetrical wing, has full 4 channel control, and flies pretty much like a second plane after you learn the basics. Definitely stay away from anything under 40 size in a trainer, they fly like crap and the wind effects them too much. The Avistar will take a lot of abuse, trust me I know first hand.. :D
For the most part american .40 size kits suck. They cost much more to build than ARFS- you must buy a lot of extra parts on top of the kits cost, take way more time, they are heavier, and you risk building them wrong and having them fly badly.
ARF trainers are the way to go if you want to learn to fly and not spend a long time before ever getting to the field.
And dont buy any of this you will be a better pilot if you build it stuff, thats nonsense. Flying skill is just about time in the AIR not at the workbench. You wont learn smooth landings by building the plane, nor will you learn slow flight, or inverted flight, or rudder use or anything.
Buy an ARF, build it by the directions and INPUT OF EXPERIENCED CLUB MEMBERS and go fly.
If you want build anyway, build your second or third planes as you are learning to fly your ARF trainer.
Again if you want to learn flying buy a quality ARF.
This plane is the best IMHO.
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXMU53**&P=7
For $300 US you get plane, engine and full radio setup.
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Originally posted by snafu
I'm currently setting up an old PC for him and came across this.... http://n.ethz.ch/student/mmoeller/fms/index_e.html (About a 5.9mb download)
It has it's limitations sure but it's by far the best RC simulator I have ever come across (And It's free) :) Although you need to run it at at least 1280*1024 resolution for a good effect. It has interfaces for Keyboard, Multiple Joysticks and connection to your favourite RC transmitter (Instructions on webpage). Just the thing for those rainy Sundays (And cheaper on the balsawood as well).
TTFN
snafu
That's a trip! Fun to play with, specially the cobra helo =)
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Do NOT start with a plane without ailerons. Just in case someone might tell you it's easier to fly just with rudder, that's wrong.
Keep in mind that if you fly something it will break sooner or later. Unless you're flying it boring, but even then it will break, just a bit later ;) But that doesn't matter much, the expensive parts usually survive and can be reused.