Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Thrawn on November 20, 2002, 09:53:34 AM
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Holy crap can the US compete on a fair playing field or not??
"U.S. trade ruling could hurt Canadian farmers
Last Updated Wed, 20 Nov 2002 9:42:13
OTTAWA - The Canadian farmer took another possible hit on Tuesday as the United States International Trade Commission ruled that Canadian wheat imports hurt U.S. farmers.
"They're plainly wrong," said Public Works Minister Ralph Goodale, reacting to the U.S. ruling. Goodale is the minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board. "
"The U.S. had looked at the operation of the Canadian Wheat Board on nine previous occasions and never found unfair trade practices. "
http://cbc.ca/stories/2002/11/19/wheat_us021119
Cripes, the US government keeps on doing this! They kick our tulips in a bunch of other industries, but the second we kick their butts, whamo...Tariff time!
We then take you to world court, they say the US is wrong the US removes the tariffs. Meanwhile years have past and another of one of our few industries that are kicking bellybutton has taken a HUGE finacial hit and thousands of empolyees are out of work!
Soviet Cananuckistan my ass, more like USistan or something, you guys ever hear of something called CAPITALISM?? :mad:
I guess your industries would rather have that socialist bowl of rice.
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Sorry Thrawn, but Uncle Sam has a hard-on for the great American farmer and not much is gonna change that.
SOB
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Originally posted by SOB
Sorry Thrawn, but Uncle Sam has a hard-on for the great American farmer and not much is gonna change that.
SOB
Then Uncle Sam shouldn't have agreed to NAFTA.
Uncle Sam have a hard-on for soft wood lumberers as well?
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Sounds like you Canadians might need a little "regime change"....
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ironic. you're here asking the people but it's the government that you should be asking.
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I dunno Thrawn, just pointing out a fact of life in the US.
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Originally posted by Wlfgng
ironic. you're here asking the people but it's the government that you should be asking.
They are YOUR representives who are diddlying over my country.
Cripes, this is how the US treats its friends, allies, greatest trading partner?
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Originally posted by Thrawn
They are YOUR representives who are diddlying over my country.
Cripes, this is how the US treats its friends, allies, greatest trading partner?
Stand by us, or stand aside... :D
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Welcome to International Politics.
Money is its law, self-interest is its religion.
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and canada has no protectionist regulations??
an americans try to get work up there? it's virtually imposable for construction type work. as I understand it you have to run an add for 60 days and have no canadians aply in order to hire from out of country (we usually don't have that kind of time frame to work with so you effectivly block most americans from working there)
on the other hand canadians are here working all the time.
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yeah it's my country but I don't rule it Thrawn.. get a grip man.
so I guess i should fault you personally for the crappy non-military your country has.. or the long list of other things I could fault your country for ?
chill
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
and canada has no protectionist regulations??
Yes, we do, but none that break our treaty with the US and Mexico.
And Canada and Mexico are trying to convince the US government to agree to a common labour market, blame your own government if that hasn't happened yet.
Wlfgng, I would expect you to hold the Canadian people responisble for their government. Just to clarify, I'm not blaming any individual.
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Bryan Adams. WTG Thrawn, ya dickhead! :p
SOB
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Originally posted by SOB
Bryan Adams. WTG Thrawn, ya dickhead! :p
SOB
Michael Bolton.
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Thrawn,
Is it your contention that this action (if it were to continue to it's logical conclusion next summer) is a violation of the provisions of NAFTA?
Really, I agree with you. It's lame as hell for the US to use a double standard for Free trade in my opinion. However, it is my guess that this current situation is being played out within the provisions of the NAFTA treaty. I'll see what I can find.
-Sik
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Holy crap can the US compete on a fair playing field or not??
So how do you feel about the US tech support jobs that have been going to your country by the THOUSANDS? US call centers can not compete with the low wages in Canada. I just read that Xerox is closing one of its North Texas call centers and moving the jobs to Ottawa.
I bet the US worker loses out to Mexico and Canada much more over the next decade.
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wow Thrawn.. I didn't know you could control your government..
you are truly a PC wussie then
jk.. your GOVERNMENT is full of PC wussies
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"Canada - U.S.
The Canada-U.S. Free Trade Agreement implemented in 1989 was the starting point for the NAFTA to be based upon. In the case of Chapter Seven, Section A, the CUSFTA agreements pertaining to agriculture were implemented into the NAFTA. These previous agreements represented the bulk of the Canada-U.S. negotiations. Under the provisions of the CUSFTA, "all tariffs affecting agricultural trade between the United States and Canada are to be removed by January 1, 1998" (USDA, 1996). Trade between the countries increased significantly after the CUSFTA took effect. In fiscal year 1995 U.S. exports to Canada of agricultural goods set a record at $5.8 billion, while Canadian agricultural exports to the U.S. reached $5.4 billion. Canada did have provisions to use trade barriers to protect its dairy, poultry, and egg sectors, but as a result of GATT, the quotas on these commodities were required to be changed to tariff rate quotas. Despite the protectionist measures on these commodities, trade has increased in these areas also. "
http://wehner.tamu.edu/mgmt.www/nafta/spring99/Groups99/2/group2_1.htm
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Krusher
I agree with you have seen it first hand, my previos company ditched their call center and went to Canada also. They also outsource web design in Canada and India.
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Wlfgng, I said you should hold the Canadian PEOPLE responsible for thier government not a Canadian PERSON.
Kusher, what does that have to do with the treaty between our countries that your government is breaking.
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Originally posted by popeye
Sounds like you Canadians might need a little "regime change"....
That was funny:)
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We moved the Lifesaver factory to Canada...you know, Lifesaver Lifesaver can't be beat....twenty three flavors are fun to eat?
What more do ya want?
I think you're a whiner.
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From the Text of NAFTA
http://www.nafta-sec-alena.org/english/index.htm
Article 705: Export Subsidies.
3. Except as provided in Annex 702.1, where an exporting Party considers that a non-Party is exporting an agricultural good to the territory of another Party with the benefit of export subsidies, the importing Party shall, on written request of the exporting Party, consult with the exporting Party with a view to agreeing on specific measures that the importing Party may adopt to counter the effect of any such subsidized imports. If the importing Party adopts the agreed-upon measures, the exporting Party shall refrain from applying, or immediately cease to apply, any export subsidy to exports of such good to the territory of the importing Party.
The US believes that Canada is in violation of NAFTA, http://www.usitc.gov/er/nl2002/ER1119z1.htm and I believe that what we are seeing here is the begining of negotiation between countries for the implementation of Tarrifs to equalise the subsidies. However, if Canada does not acknowledge such subsidies, I think it has to go up for arbitration. I'm honestly not sure what the next step it.
In short, if you guys would just play by the rules, we wouldn't have to get rough with ya :)
-Sik
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A little google search shows that canada's Trade with the US has netted them a 109 percent increase in 7 years. Their trade with the rest of the world went up 29 percent.
yea it looks like we are screwing the Canadians really bad.
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It all depends on what the meaning of is, is.
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Originally posted by Sikboy
In short, if you guys would just play by the rules, we wouldn't have to get rough with ya :)
-Sik
BS, the US have been squeaking about the Wheat Board, for a couple of years now. They've investigate it 9 times and found it completely above board every time. The US has threaten to bring Canada to the WTO and we've said, Bring it. Because the Wheat Board has already passed NINE different audits by the US government and a dispute settlement panel of the North American Free Trade Agreement.
Can anyone think of another country that agrees to a treaty, then does every thing it can to circumvent it, until the last possible second? That's right, IRAQ baby. The US is like IRAQ! :p
"A little google search shows that canada's Trade with the US has netted them a 109 percent increase in 7 years. Their trade with the rest of the world went up 29 percent. "
What does this have to do with the price of rice in China, or wheat in Canada for that matter?
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LOL Welcome to the one way street of US "free trade" (otherwise known as a big pile of hypocritcal dog poo)
:)
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:confused: Canada has a government?
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NAFTA is not a free trade deal for all industries, just for ones whose workers dont vote as a block
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Originally posted by Tumor
:confused: Canada has a government?
Damn, you deserve to have a post in Bush's cabinate.
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and Thrawn some of us here in the good ole USA, oppose NAFTA. I havent seen anything good come from NAFTA just loss of jobs here in the U.S. you have nothing to complain about move along..there is nothing to see here.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
"A little google search shows that canada's Trade with the US has netted them a 109 percent increase in 7 years. Their trade with the rest of the world went up 29 percent. "
What does this have to do with the price of rice in China, or wheat in Canada for that matter?
It is in response to your hyperbolic rambling "Cripes, this is how the US treats its friends, allies, greatest trading partner?"
It means since NAFTA we have increased our trade with you by 109 percent, you socialist canuck whiner!! :p
Cobra
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Originally posted by Cobra
It means since NAFTA we have increased our trade with you by 109 percent, you socialist canuck whiner!! :p
Cobra
Ha! The only socialism happening here is corporate socialism...you commies.
"and Thrawn some of us here in the good ole USA, oppose NAFTA. I havent seen anything good come from NAFTA just loss of jobs here in the U.S. you have nothing to complain about move along..there is nothing to see here."
So. Some Canadians didn't agree with it either. It doesn't changed the fact that the US government entered into a contract with the Canadian government. So, some americans disagree with a treaty and it becomes null and void? I don't think so.
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Krusher: US call centers can not compete with the low wages in Canada. I just read that Xerox is closing one of its North Texas call centers and moving the jobs to Ottawa.
Customers want cheaper product, so the producers use all ways to reduce their costs - including sacking workers and replacing them with cheap foreign labor. How does it differ from sacking workers and replacing them with automation? It's supposed to free people for more productive work in the economy.
America would probably not be so great if 70% of the population still worked in agriculture instead of 1-2%. Would it have made any difference if they had been replaced with shipments of Canadian grain rather than machinery at the same cost? None that I can see.
miko
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Thrawn, is your whole reaction being based on that one article? If it is, I have to say you are over reacting.
When I went home Germantown way, I'd drive by thousands of acres of weat fields. Since 2000, they have all ceased to grow wheat... and most were simply let go.
You might feel that Canadian farmers will be getting the short end of any decision being made, but it will come only after American farmers have gone under.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu
Thrawn, is your whole reaction being based on that one article? If it is, I have to say you are over reacting.
It isn't.
You might feel that Canadian farmers will be getting the short end of any decision being made, but it will come only after American farmers have gone under.
AKDejaVu
Nah, they're going to take a hit the second the tariff is put into effect.
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Thawn there is alot more to this than the current situation. Many of these issues have been brewing for years. The CWB has had an unfair trade advanatage for years when it comes to trading wheat. Much of it goes back to the fact that they subsidise the rail freight from thier interior points that go to the west coast based on the rates that were in effect in 1860's.
Dont ask me to go post a reference because I dont have the time. All I know is that the CWB can ship rail wheat cheaper out of Alberta to Mexico than I can out of Kansas, at least that is how it seems when you look at the flat price offers on wheat today into those markets. Now do the producers benifit from this is a good question. With the currency spread between the US and Canada it is a good thing for the Canadians. The AWB has similar issues.
The Fact is all counties today heavily subsidise Agriculture. Even the Russians are currently buying wheat from their producers in order to shore up prices. The FSU countries have had a good series of wheat crops and those crops are cash commodities and they have been setting the world prices for the last year or so. The price of wheat out of the Black Sea has been 20 to 70 dollars a ton cheaper than US or Canadian origin. The lack of fobing capacity in the Black Sea has been the only thing has kept them from taking a bigger world market share. This trend will continue as long as they have good crops. It is very bearish US and Canadian Agriculture in the long term. Rambling,,, back to work.
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Milo, if the CWB has had an unfair trade advantage then why did it passed serveral US audits and a NAFTA dispute settlement panal already?
:confused:
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Originally posted by Thrawn
They've investigate it 9 times and found it completely above board every time.
I guess the tenth time is the charm. You shouldn't have started cheating, especially since you knew we were keeping a close eye on you.
The US has threaten to bring Canada to the WTO and we've said, Bring it.
If I understand it correctly, that would be in line with the dispute settlement provisions of NAFTA.
Can anyone think of another country that agrees to a treaty, then does every thing it can to circumvent it, until the last possible second? That's right, IRAQ baby. The US is like IRAQ! :p
Except that the US is not in violation of NAFTA :confused:
-Sik
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Originally posted by Sikboy
Except that the US is not in violation of NAFTA :confused:
-Sik
Sure it is.
"U.S. TAXPAYERS SUED
FOR
NAFTA VIOLATIONS
AND
YOU MAY HAVE TO PAY THE BILL!"
http://www.fairtradewatch.org/nafta/loewengroup.html
DO NOT diddly WITH OUR FUNERAL DIRECTORS! :mad:
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Michael Bolton.
LOL...I'll shut up now.
SOB
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Sure it is.
From the Article:
The lawsuit alleges that the company was not treated fairly according to the standards of NAFTA, even though it was treated fairly under the laws of this country and was treated the same as a U.S. based company would have been treated.
Those are insteresting Allegations to be sure, but they are not proof of any kind. Unless the diposition of this case has changed since the writing of this article.
-Sik
:p
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Aw crap, I don't even know when the article was written. I'm running out of steam here. Needless to say, I'm pretty ticked off that US government is trying to screw us again, and I wish they would quit it.
That being said, Kusher, do you have a number for Xerox? ;)
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Thrawn
Nothing in this business is ever black and white. Except the contracts that you sign. ( Well except for the contracts that the Chinese sign with invisible ink, but thats another story. )
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canada is a country?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
canada is a country?
lazs
Go join Tumor.
And another reason why the US should treat Canada fairly.
Canadians consume more Kraft Dinner (aka Kraft Macaroni & Cheese) per capita than any other nationality on earth.
That's right, here it's considered "dinner".
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Maybe so Thrawn.. but HERE we make fun of Canadians BECAUSE they eat Kraft Dinnah and because of your flappy heads and beady little eyes. (Terrence & Phillip from South Park)
-SW
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Originally posted by Thrawn
That being said, Kusher, do you have a number for Xerox? ;)
1-800-scre-wusa ;)
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The U.S. farmers, lumber, steel and auto industries have been taking garbage from the rest of the world for over twenty years. U.S. business, have been leaving for cheaper labor. Most farmers barely break even then the Government steals their land. Shut down the lumber industry for ecological reasons.
We suffer natural disasters, who helps. A disaster hits elsewhere whose there first. the U.S. Now Canada can't even defend her self gotta let American blood defend her. Only got 30,000 military if its lucky and you complain about NAFTA. We got put in this position by the rest of the world. Everyone complains about how bad we are. the last century if you've read it we have been pulled into all conflicts by treachery of other nations to get them out of their BS and this is the kind of thanks we get. Piss off mate eh.
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Jeez...lets just invade em and shut em down already.
Damn Canucks.
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Nuke Canada.
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I say leave canada alone.... unless we find oil or sumthin up there.
lazs
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http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1037872286355&p=1012571727088
US launches plan to abolish key tariffs
By Edward Alden in Washington
Published: November 25 2002 21:59 | Last Updated: November 25 2002 21:59
The US will on Tuesday unveil a bold proposal to eliminate tariffs on manufactured goods, calling for countries in the World Trade Organisation to sweep away all duties no later than 2015.
The initiative is aimed at jump-starting the faltering Doha round of international trade negotiations, which have been overshadowed by a series of US proposals for bilateral trade agreements.
The idea could also help re-build flagging corporate enthusiasm in the US for further trade liberalisation.
The proposal, to be rolled out in Washington by Robert Zoellick, the US Trade Representative, and Donald Evans, the commerce secretary, will be presented as the culmination of a 50-year effort to remove tariffs, a grand idea the US hopes can renew momentum for tearing down trade barriers.
The key elements of the US proposal, according to industry and congressional officials briefed on the plan, are: A rapid reduction in high tariffs on non-agricultural products, so that by 2010 there would be no tariffs above 8 per cent. All tariffs would then be reduced progressively to zero by 2015. The elimination, no later than 2010, of all duties that are currently below 5 per cent. A parallel initiative calling for faster elimination of tariffs in many industrial sectors such as chemicals, paper, wood and construction equipment.
Under the scheme, developing countries would have to make the biggest cuts because their average tariffs are much higher than in the advanced economies.
On industrial machinery, for example, tariffs are 1.2 per cent in the US and 1.8 per cent in the European Union but 35 per cent in Argentina and 36 per cent in India. Under the US proposal, the US and EU would have to scrap those tariffs by 2010 while other countries would have to cut tariffs to about 6.5 per cent by that time.
The US hopes to entice developing countries by promising rapid cuts in its own remaining high tariffs. The average US tariff of 17.5 per cent on clothing would be cut to 5.5 per cent by 2010.
The US is also trying to persuade developing countries that it is in their own interests to eliminate high tariffs. A recent study by the National Foreign Trade Council, a US business lobby that provided the blueprint for the US scheme, says developing countries pay $80bn a year in tariffs, more than 70 per cent of it on trade with each other.
The NFTC said tariff elimination "creates the grand political bargain needed to beat powerful protectionist interests in both rich and poor countries."
Paul O'Neill, Treasury secretary, hinted at the initiative in a speech on Monday in Manchester, northern England. He said the US response to Japanese competition in the 1980s cemented his belief "that the world economic system should eliminate trade and tariff barriers not only because open trade gives consumers around the world more choices and better prices but because open trade spurs innovation and productivity growth.".
In the Doha negotiations, New Zealand last month proposed scrapping all non-agricultural tariffs, but put no deadline on it. The EU and Japan have tabled less ambitious proposals. The EU urged reduction of the highest tariffs, while Japan suggested a much slower pace for reducing all tariffs.
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Originally posted by Krotki
Now Canada can't even defend her self gotta let American blood defend her. Only got 30,000 military if its lucky and you complain about NAFTA.
last time i checked 6 canadians died from an american bomb.....
last time i checked NO american has died defendin my country.....
You live in an interesting MADE up world.
try and stay with the subject.....WHEAT!!!!:eek:
and as for taking over canada....you already have numb-nuts
McDonalds, Home-Depots everywhere man.
But my country IS bigger then yours:p
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In response SLO I beleive you took what I said out of context cause I see that I did not make myself clear. I have given twenty nine years of my life for this country such as she be. I definately now what its like for incidents of friendly fire. I have served with Canadians several times during my career and know how they feel about Canada and the fact we had both stick together instead whats happening now. It pains me to know that six fine troopers lost their lifes to "Friendly Fire" and the U.S. has not reacted properly on the incident. Of course we don't know what has happened behind the doors either. I personnally would hate to write the incident reports to their families, explaining what happened. As above all other nations Canada has been faithful to her NATO and UN commitments. For that quote I apologise as I did get away from wheat or should I say NAFTA, into something that did not apply.
Krotki, United we stand
:(
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Thrawn you do have a point, but the problem really begins here at home.
For years and years our Government has been ignoring the plite of farmers. While other countries (especially the US) have been pumping money into agricultural subsidies, Canada has been turning a blind eye to farmers.
The CWB is definately no help either.
In the early to mid eighties farming was a viable, if not profitable business. Today many farmer's fertilizer costs alone are more than the maximum dollar amount that a farmer can expect to achieve for any given harvest.
The short of it is that farming just doesnt pay. No person would buy stocks KNOWING that they would lose value, and no person would open a business KNOWING they would lose money. I myself know more than a few farmers who have had to sell the farm that has been in the family for generations and take crap work.
While "unfair" trading practices are part of the problem, i think that it doesnt play a big a role as one might think.
We have to sort out the problems here at home before we can look to the US to blame.
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It's so amusing to listen to the commie union workers of America squeaking about Canada trade while at the same time listening to the commie Canadian workers squeaking about the United States.
Carry on :)
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i fail to see the tie between labour unions & communism - unions try to get the best price for their product, no? that out&out greed
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Hey Thrawn, a US Custom Wheat Cutter buddy of mine says the Canadian govt gives a fuel subsidy to Canadian Custom Cutters when they cut in the US. Is this true?
I'm going to try to call him tomorrow to refresh my memory on that conversation. Basically, he said he can't compete with them when they come down here because they get so much compensaton for cutting outside of Canada from your government.
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Thank GWB Thrawn..He don't like our lumber industry too...
Tarrif time...
Free trade..Lol
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Originally posted by whgates3
i fail to see the tie between labour unions & communism - unions try to get the best price for their product, no? that out&out greed
I think maybe that this may havesomething to do with the alleged / perceived connection.
It will be asked, "Why, then, do the workers strike in such cases, when the uselessness of such measures is so evident?" Simply because they must protest against every reduction, even if dictated by necessity; because they feel bound to proclaim that they, as human beings, shall not be made to bow to social circumstances, but social conditions ought to yield to them as human beings; because silence on their part would be a recognition of these social conditions, an admission of the right of the bourgeoisie to exploit the workers in good times and let them starve in bad ones. Against this the working-men must rebel so long as they have not lost all human feeling, and that they protest in this way and no other, comes of their 'being practical English people, who express themselves in action, and do not, like German theorists, go to sleep as soon as their protest is properly registered and placed ad acta, there to sleep as quietly as the protesters themselves. The active resistance of the English working-men has its effect in holding the money-greed of the bourgeoisie within certain limits, and keeping alive the opposition of the workers to the social and political omnipotence of the bourgeoisie, while it compels the admission that something more is needed than Trades Unions and strikes to break the power of the ruling class. ---Fredrick Engels (Karl's Buddy)
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Times have changed, our kids are getting worse..
They won't obey their parents, they just want to fart and curse!
Should we blame the Government? Or Blame Society?
Or should we blame the images on TV?
No, Blame Canada! Blame Canada!
With all their beady little eyes, their flapping head so full of lies!
Blame Canada! Blame Canada!
We need to form a full assault, It's Canada's Fault!
Don't blame me, for my son Stan..
He saw the darn cartoon, and now he's off to join the clan!
And my boy Eric once had my picture on his shelf..
But now when he sees me, he tells me to fxxx myself!
Well? Blame Canada! Blame Canada!
It seems that everything's gone wrong since Canada came along..
Blame Canada! Blame Canada!
They're not even a real country anyway.
My son could've been a doctor or a lawyer, rich and true..
Instead he burned up like a piggy on a Barbecue.
Should we blame the matches? Should we blame the fire?
Or the Doctors who allowed him to expire?
Heck no, Blame Canada! Blame Canada!
With their hockey hullabaloo, and that squeak Anne Murray, too!
Blame Canada! Shame on Canada..
The smut we must stop.. the trash we must smash..
The laugher and fun.. must all be undone..
We must blame them.. and cause a fuss..
before somebody thinks of blaming us!
:D
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Originally posted by Krusher
I bet the US worker loses out to Mexico and Canada much more over the next decade.
More U.S. jobs are going overseas than are going north and south of the border.
ack-ack
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KrotKi no insult intended bud...big of ya to apologize
no matter what any politician says.....we have and always will defend ours and yours.
we are not many.....but we do what we can.
Canada is big in its space but small in it populice, only 30 million so of course where not gonna have a big military.
we just don't piss off many countries:D
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loser,
How can our farmers be going bankrupt when they are subsidized so heavyily?
SBO said that they US government has a hard on for the American farmer. What a niave statement. This isn't an issue of the independant US farmer versus the independant Canadian farmer.
This is a case of large mulitnationals (such as Cargill, ConAgra and IBP), which are already destroying the way of life for the independant farmer in the US, versus the CWB. The CWB provides some protection for the independant farmer in Canada. If these multinationals lobbiest can get the US to declare the CWB to be against NAFTA, which the US has previously found it not to be, then they can move further into Canada and buy out our independant farmers.
Milo, if you can correct any of my thoughts on this I would appreciate it.
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H.McG - yes, its very easy of a commie to observe facts about society and read into it things which are convenient for communists. as an anarchist i could say 'parking lots are anarchy: no rules, no signs, no cops. & everyone parks there, so everyone must love anarchy' it just as true as engels & a lot less pompus sounding too. the truth remains - a good labour union will get the most possible $$$ for it's work. the principles of commieism would have them getting only as much as they need