Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: rv6 on November 20, 2002, 10:25:53 AM
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I just came onto this site, and downloaded this massive chunk of *.MPG file. It took about 10 mins to download off a T1 line,, but the visual is pretty amazing.
It's the actual guncam footage of about 15 or more individual German v US air engagments.. (obviously the Germans won every time)
Each engagement is pre-titled, showing the date/time and types of aircraft involved.
IE: BF110 vs B17 .. FW190-A7 v P47 .. FW190 v P51.. 190-A6 v Liberator, FW190-A8 v P38 Lightning (vulched on landing!),, FW190 v La5,, etc, etc,
It's B&W, but amazing to see ALL the manuevers, attacks, unintentional spins, etc, that we do in AH,, performed in a REAL! life or death aerial battle.
You'll see some 1/4 angle HO shots light up Liberators with hit-sprites.. Some good deflection shooting and some truly CRAPPY deflection shooting.
Some really amazing visuals show a P47 absorbing the full load of an FW190 @ 100 yds, without falling apart..
Also, an FW190-A6 trying to turn with a P51.. The FW goes into an inverted flat spin (looks just like AH!), and miraculously breaks out of the spin, in a perfect angle to light up the pony with an off-angle headon shot!! (Crap LUCK!)..
The most profound thing in every bomber attack is the horrifying targeting method used by German fighters, ever single time.
Hi speed, up the "6",, open up at 400 yds, pipper dead center on the tail-gunner & ball-turret. I'd heard from my father the old saying that these crewman (tail & ballturret gunners) life expectancy under attack was measured in seconds. These films show why.
After exploding the tailgunner & ballturret cubicle, the German pilots used rudders to meticulously saw the bombers from wing-tip to wing-tip. I could only watch it twice.. not fun.
From historical viewpoint, these films are amazing. From humanitarian viewpoint, it'll leave you speechless as it did me.
WWII German Gun-Camera Footages.. (http://hjem.orangenet.dk/~wai44027/lv/clip0001.mpg)
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dang why werent the gunners firing in any of thos shots? hell yea its easy when no ones shootin at all or even jinkin the buff.
did the 190 stall out in the fight with the 51 ? and then wallow a while to build speed in a nose dive ? if so yea that is bad bellybutton . the 51 looked like it got it in that h.o.?
cool the way the 38 hit his flaps and did a zoom clime at low speed forced a over shoot , that is one fight they didnt win im betting. p.s. anyone notice the 38 almost collided with some other real small plane coming from the left at about 20 feet off the ground. anyone see what type that was?
notice the guy shooting at the dc-3 ( db3 in german? ) was trying at first to make um bail or at least to hit the engine and wings . but then went screw it and put a load in the fusilage.
also i noticed the first 190s cannon rounds didnt seem to be exploding. on one of the later ones with a very similar range and target setup you can see the plane light up with secondary explosions.
in relation to ah
alot is just amazingly correct.
guns are much less powerfull than in ah and alot harder to hit with.
great great film thanks for posting . anyone got a american or british one? or finnish?
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The one where the 110 crawled up the 17's butt and just lit him up from wingtip to wingtip...that was brutal. Some really great stuff in there...and some really poor shots, too. I thought my shots were poor. :)
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Looked a lot slower than in AH.
And they weren't shooting at d1k.
And they weren't even stick stirring.
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Did anyone else find themselves anticipating the movement of the German plane and leaning in that direction while watching.;)
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Jesus. If our b17s could take that much damage and still have all major flying surfaces and engines spinning, the whining would never end.
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Î am waiting for the first who say the films are porked all is overmodeled :)
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Originally posted by jonnyb
The one where the 110 crawled up the 17's butt and just lit him up from wingtip to wingtip...that was brutal. Some really great stuff in there...and some really poor shots, too. I thought my shots were poor. :)
You need to remember that the average AH/WB/AW 'fighter pilot' has a great deal more time looking thru *his* gunsight than your average WW2 fighter pilot did.
In your (virtual) world, you are a better shot than most real life WW2 fighter pilots were in the real world.
Mike/wulfie
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agreed.. most RL pilots in wwii were crappy shots.
you would be too if you enlisted, trained and then had to kill or be killed...
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Originally posted by ccvi
Looked a lot slower than in AH.
thats cos guncam are slowed down so you can see what they were doing
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Some really great footage. Especially liked the first 51 -vs- 190 fight were the 51 stayed in a zoom climb and casued the 190 to stall out. Was truelly amazed at how little damage the big LW cannons did in comaprison to the .50 cal damage done in allied footage. I have over 2hrs of US combat footage with some realy amazing P51/38/47 footage agaisnt 109's and 190's.
Anyone that can help me get this footage from VHS tape to PC and I'll be happy to post it.
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"Why the gunners are not firing?"
Sure they're shooting. But dead 6 attacks were not suicide in real life. Look at the formations - do you imagine that there's this German fighter crawling slowly nearer and nearer and nobody would shoot? And as some've said, it's quite likely that in some occasions the tail gunner is already goner.
In these games bomber defensive gun accuracy is way higher than in real life. Both gameplay reasons and missing physics.
That DB-3 is what is sounds like - DB-3. Not DC-3. DB-3 medium bomber of Russian Air Force. Over Black Sea or Gulf of Finland, I'd guess.
The full video, from which this is just a clip, is amazing. It's regular showpiece in our virtual pilots' meetings, whole tape filled with most interesting Luftwaffe guncamera films.
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What's the name of the film and can it be found from Alfamer (for example) or some other store in Helsinki?
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Luftwaffe guncam or something, dunno. Ask from Aviation Shop etc :)
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Looks like AviationShop is having a film "Gun Camera Action from World War II", that could be pretty close... thx :)
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well i came away from this film differently than most of you i guess...
first off there is that guy with the sig. " NO b17 ever fell to 1 pass..." whatever it was shown in this movie. did you miss the B17 that went into a flameball (pls dont try and say it survived that)
also i believe alot of the planes you saw never made it home. if you watch closely there was mutiple engine damage on almost all of them. those fighters weren't trying to popcorn the bombers just bring them out of the bomb run.
when the german cameras left the view of the bombers mostly there was alot of smoke pouring out. IRL a bomber with 2+ engines didnt last long before it fell outta the sky or was picked off by a lower fighter. (dont even try and use "memphis belle the movie" to state otherwise) lol
also did anyone else see the bomber where all the gunners and stuff were bailing out?
id say overall these were some very deadly engagements.
PS as far as that P47 goes.... i can say it almost definatelt didn't make it far like some others above think.
that major hit it took on the wing root showed that fuel and smoke was coming out of there + the wing control wires were surely damaged.
oh well my 2¢
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How easily the 190A8 seemed to stay on the LA-5s six, haven't seen that in any flight sim to date.
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Originally posted by JB73
PS as far as that P47 goes.... i can say it almost definatelt didn't make it far like some others above think.
that major hit it took on the wing root showed that fuel and smoke was coming out of there + the wing control wires were surely damaged.
oh well my 2¢
notice the cool self-sealing fuel tanks on that jug's wing? if he managed to break off from the fw, i wouldn't be surprised if he made it quite a ways back toward home, if not all the way home.
who knows, we didn't see what happened afterwards.
i *did* note to my horror, that some of them lw experienced "nose bounce" lol.
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Weazel, probably because that was a La5.. not F or FN.
-SW
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No easy Days- Gun Camera Footage WW2
The most disturbing aerial footage i have ever seen and i have atleast 30 + hours of tapes...
The thing that kills me the most i sthe sawing bak and forth of our b-17's...omg....my heart slows down,.,,
There is also a pasrt where there is a microphone..u can hear the 110's cannons start to fire,,then he lets all cannons start to go...
Wow talk about a Mitsu sound package..its amazing...
boom --- boom ---boom
then its boomboomboomboomboombooomb oom all cannons on...
hard to beleive thsi was happing on such a massive scale...God bless all of them..
BiGB
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rv6-- Thanks for posting this link. One thing: I don't think that 190 comes out of the spin with a lucky angle on a 51...I think the camera got turned off and then back on for the head on attack on a different (?) plane. Also, the P-38 isn't being vulched on landing...I think he's involved in a ground attack. Note the "newbie" 190 that cuts in front trying to "steal" the kill!
******
Grendel: There was a Tupolev SB-2, but I can't find anything about a DB-3. What is that? It's not the SB-2, which had a rather high wing, and probably would not have carried the external bomb or drop tank seen here. Another possibility is that it's an early model Beaufighter with a horizontal stabilizer with no dihedral (slanted up).
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rv6 points out that the Luftwaffe pilots seem to use their rudders to hit many parts of each bomber. I use just the opposite tactic: when I get a bead on an enemy buff I try to put all my shots into one place. Also I don't attack from dead 6 often!
******
Looking at this, perhaps lethality should be reduced a bit in AH.
MRPLUTO VMF-323 ~Death Rattlers~ MAG-33
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Just for the record. I bought this tape over the internet in the US in 1999 ( i forgot the name :)) on VHS, grapped it to DV, eddidet it down to about 8 minuets( alot of the original material is looking realy bad), encrypted it into an mpg1 and videostreamed it on my companys server. It was never intendet to be on for such a long time, but me and the other employees forgot all about it. If you have more of this stuff on VHS and want it public , please e-mail me, I've got alot of free serverspace left.
Cheers
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Weazel, probably because that was a La5.. not F or FN.
-SW
La5 doesnt turn any worse thasn la5FN.
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:( sad, got ADSL and waitng for it to D/l what was yer d/l time its been about 4-6 mins now, 70% done..
[edit] lost track of time 8-12 mins i think
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Originally posted by BGBMAW
There is also a pasrt where there is a microphone..u can hear the 110's cannons start to fire,,then he lets all cannons start to go...
Wow talk about a Mitsu sound package..its amazing...
boom --- boom ---boom
then its boomboomboomboomboombooomb oom all cannons on...
where do you hear this ...
ive watched this 5x with sound all the way up and never headr anything?!?!?!!!?
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Originally posted by BenDover
thats cos guncam are slowed down so you can see what they were doing
Nope o dont think so.
Its more that AH isnt what it was in reality.
In AH we pull every G we can to evade regardless what will happen.
In reality its upon the Pilot how many G he can do and for what time.
Also we are sitting in front of a screen in a warm room with a beer or coffee beside the joystick.
WE can get the max out of our plane ALL the time.
Thats what real life pilots seldom did.
For the gunnery thing n the B17 i would say that the attacks was on the way home. The gunners where either dead or fighting damages inside the plane.
I dont think they shoot back in the film.
But if they shot back, a single B17 wasnt the worst problem for a fighter.
Image these boys sitting in minus 40 degrees celsius with thick gloves feared like hell and have to shot with 50 cal at a plane that pass by with allmost the double speed and shoting 20 or 30 mm bullets.
All we wannabes have not the little clue about through what hell these boys go.
We click the 1 holding the lazerpointer guns of our AH buffs on the fiter press the trigger and in 50% he makes boom after a 1 sec long burst
Its really funny we talking like we flying combat for years.
I bet every 1 would piss in his pants if he has to face a combat situation..
As for the P47 can some 1 tell the model ??
Its amazing to see it is not outturning easy the FW.
In AH u would have broken up allready to beginn to rope him.
In real life ( and this cant be porked) he was owned by that FW.
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Looking at the silhouette I'd say DB3 = Douglas Boston III.
Mike/wulfie
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Originally posted by MRPLUTO
Grendel: There was a Tupolev SB-2, but I can't find anything about a DB-3. What is that? It's not the SB-2, which had a rather high wing, and probably would not have carried the external bomb or drop tank seen here. Another possibility is that it's an early model Beaufighter with a horizontal stabilizer with no dihedral (slanted up).
MRPLUTO VMF-323 ~Death Rattlers~ MAG-33
No. DB-3 is DB-3.
Iljushin DB-3.
Google:
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Ilyushin+DB-3%22&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0
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Originally posted by MRPLUTO
rv6-- Thanks for posting this link. One thing: I don't think that 190 comes out of the spin with a lucky angle on a 51...I think the camera got turned off and then back on for the head on attack on a different (?) plane. Also, the P-38 isn't being vulched on landing...I think he's involved in a ground attack. Note the "newbie" 190 that cuts in front trying to "steal" the kill!
******
rv6 points out that the Luftwaffe pilots seem to use their rudders to hit many parts of each bomber. I use just the opposite tactic: when I get a bead on an enemy buff I try to put all my shots into one place. Also I don't attack from dead 6 often!
******
Looking at this, perhaps lethality should be reduced a bit in AH.
First, there was no killstealing in rl. Only when the enemy is shot down he is no danger anymore. Not a second earlier. So if there were 5 planes involved in someone bringing down iots ok as ong as this guy goes down for sure.
Second, I dont belive in RL the structural failure to the MG and cannon rounds were as common as they are here. I believe in most cases, the pilot or motor got killed, or something cought fire. The lethality is quite high in AH. But if it was to be toned down, would it be better?
Prolly not. You will very selldom shoot someone down AND make it home alive. You would mostly have to follow the victim to deck to finish him off. By then his buddys would show up and kill you afterwards.
And if the lethality was adjusted, the Me109 with the 30mm would see a gret deal of action, because the hit hard enugh in RL for one shot kills. Like hispanos here now.
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Originally posted by Purzel
First, there was no killstealing in rl. Only when the enemy is shot down he is no danger anymore. Not a second earlier. So if there were 5 planes involved in someone bringing down iots ok as ong as this guy goes down for sure.
First, if was killstealing in rl. When gun cameras were involved some pilots used to fire at dammaged\going down planes just to get it on cammera and then claim. I do not remember the souce, but I defenetly read about it.
Originally posted by Purzel
Second, I dont belive in RL the structural failure to the MG and cannon rounds were as common as they are here. I believe in most cases, the pilot or motor got killed, or something cought fire. The lethality is quite high in AH. But if it was to be toned down, would it be better?
Usually it required 3-5 30mm or 10-20 20mm hits to bring down b17. It was in Heinz Khoke war diary. That is what we have in AH.
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in one of the films, the pilot purposely goes for the bottom ball turret on the bomber. he goes from shooting at the engine, it seems like he gets shot at, then diverts his guns on the bottom turret. you can even see it move slightly. after he pumps a "few" rounds into the ball turret, the goes back to the engines....amazing films...
HOWEVER, enough of seeing the Germans spankin buffs, LETS SEE SOME ALLIED WHOOP-ARSE!!!!
anyone have any or know where to get it?
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I believe gun cameras were uncommon in the luftwaffe. So, you are not looking at gc footage from your average pilot. Heinz Knocke flew with a gun camera sometimes. He specialized in one pass HO kills on bombers(cockpits).
Gorski
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Originally posted by Purzel
And if the lethality was adjusted, the Me109 with the 30mm would see a gret deal of action, because the hit hard enugh in RL for one shot kills. Like hispanos here now.
uh.
Hispanos almost never score one-shot kills, and the mk108 almost always does. The hispano vs mk108 usage is about the ballistics, not the lethality.
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S!
Seen that film on Virtual Pilots annual meetings. It really makes feel sorry for the guys in the bombers getting mauled by 20/30mm cannonfire. The P47 seemed to be a Razorback, at least it was Olive Drab and I guess those BubbleTops were silverish? Interesting stuff anyway...
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Originally posted by Fariz
Usually it required 3-5 30mm or 10-20 20mm hits to bring down b17. It was in Heinz Khoke war diary. That is what we have in AH.
"Bring down" does not mean "rip apart". 3-5 30mm or 10-20 20mm would surelly damage or take out critical components like fuel tanks, engines and crew, but would not likely rip a wing of like in AH. Remember that "bring down" is achieved if the bomber is sufficientlly damaged to not reach home.
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face it... LW cannon are/were wimpy. In AH I could get about 25% assists with the CHog hitting with all four cannon... real cannon, not LW cannon. I don't think AH damage model is off that much.
lazs
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I've read that the Germans calculated it took three "well-placed" 30mm rounds to bring down a four-engine bomber. They also estimated an average of 20 20mm shells to kill one.
MRPLUTO VMF-323 ~Death Rattlers~ MAG-33
P.S. Thank you, Grendel, for the info on the DB-3 & the excellent link.
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Originally posted by illo
La5 doesnt turn any worse thasn la5FN.
Doesn't have as powerful an engine.. lose speed quicker. Turns slow down as speed is loss.
-SW
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Originally posted by Purzel
And if the lethality was adjusted, the Me109 with the 30mm would see a gret deal of action, because the hit hard enugh in RL for one shot kills. Like hispanos here now.
Was in an odd moood yesterday - flew the Hurricane with the 40mm cannon. Yeah it kills with one bullet - but you have to be close. I got several guys with it. (Yeah that was why some of you were one ping killed btw - was one ping sure, one BIG ping)
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I believe the reason major parts go flying off so frequently in AH is so that planes actually get shot down.
In AH, no one bails as soon as their plane takes some minor damage, they will continue to fight, either to get a kill before they go down, or to try and make it home. We basically know the aircraft is lost, but what's the harm in trying?
In RL, how many would stay in their airplane if half the wing got torn off, or if they had just taken heavy damage to engine(s) and aircraft structure? Most likely, the pilot would bail out while the plane was still somewhat stable. He knew it would be too late once the plane got into a death spiral.
In AH, you can bail out at any speed, no matter what is happening, even at speeds in excess of 400MPH in a 1 wing sprial dive. If you tried that in RL, you would either not be able to get out, or would die as you hit the slip-stream or as the wrekage smashed into you.
Basically, in RL a heavily damaged aircraft was usually abandonded even if control 'Might' have still been possible. This is certainly not the case in AH so damage effect is exagerated to compensate.
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Originally posted by Midnight
In AH, you can bail out at any speed, no matter what is happening, even at speeds in excess of 400MPH in a 1 wing sprial dive. If you tried that in RL, you would either not be able to get out, or would die as you hit the slip-stream or as the wrekage smashed into you.
Basically, in RL a heavily damaged aircraft was usually abandonded even if control 'Might' have still been possible. This is certainly not the case in AH so damage effect is exagerated to compensate.
This makes me wonder why the INability to get out of a spiralling plane isn't modelled in AH.
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Those big 40 mils on the IID would be a little more useful if they fired both at once instead of sequentially, bucking the plane from the recoil and throwing your aim all over the place.
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JB73...lolol
I was talking about the Documentary "No Easy Days" ww2 Gun Camera footage...
I will post the link when i get hoem..thats the film that has "some " origanal audio on it....heartbreaking...
BiGB
xoxo
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Daddog had this same video at the last con. Very sad. You can only imagine what those men were going through, on either side.
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I believe the pilot of P-51B "Ding Hoa" took on a whole gaggle of BF-110s and shot about 5 of them down. I know with my gunnery and the hitting power of four 50s in Aces High, I don't think I could ever do that.
But we'll never have reality here, just "representations."
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Originally posted by Midnight
Basically, in RL a heavily damaged aircraft was usually abandonded even if control 'Might' have still been possible. This is certainly not the case in AH so damage effect is exagerated to compensate.
I doubt it's so much a compensation. There's far more subsystems that could be damaged/disabled/destroyed/ in a real plane than in these simulated ones...
For example, the ailerons would also have hinges, skin deformation, control cables, linkage systems, just to name a few... You could hit a hinge (not intentionally of course), and the aileron might become jammed... time to bail out. The skin could be blow away, and bend, causing another jam.
That just explains the control surfaces, in RL pilots would bail out if they were on fire... here guys turn in circles until they explode.
Things like wings coming off did happen, but it was a result of ammunition stores exploding inside of the wings, or a fuel tank.
It is indeed simplified, but I don't know if it's really exageratted in anyway... IMO.
-SW
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
I doubt it's so much a compensation. There's far more subsystems that could be damaged/disabled/destroyed/ in a real plane than in these simulated ones...
For example, the ailerons would also have hinges, skin deformation, control cables, linkage systems, just to name a few... You could hit a hinge (not intentionally of course), and the aileron might become jammed... time to bail out. The skin could be blow away, and bend, causing another jam.
That just explains the control surfaces, in RL pilots would bail out if they were on fire... here guys turn in circles until they explode.
Things like wings coming off did happen, but it was a result of ammunition stores exploding inside of the wings, or a fuel tank.
It is indeed simplified, but I don't know if it's really exageratted in anyway... IMO.
-SW
Well, I agree, but the AH A/C do tolerate too little damage. Some Japanese planes like the Zeke and Betty were "one shot lighters", but most other planes were more solid, especially when using MG or HMG weapons. Saw a guncam clip from a P51 shooting at a 190. He scored several strikes one both wings, tail, fuselage, DT (which exploded in flames), but the 190 just kept on flying. No structural failures or nothing, and this 190 got hammered from close range (the 190 filled the guncam view).
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Originally posted by GScholz
Well, I agree, but the AH A/C do tolerate too little damage. Some Japanese planes like the Zeke and Betty were "one shot lighters", but most other planes were more solid, especially when using MG or HMG weapons. Saw a guncam clip from a P51 shooting at a 190. He scored several strikes one both wings, tail, fuselage, DT (which exploded in flames), but the 190 just kept on flying. No structural failures or nothing, and this 190 got hammered from close range (the 190 filled the guncam view).
.50cal thats it. Thats real life 50 cal not AH.
I also read debriefs og german 262 Pilots comin home with more the 200 holes from .50cal bullets just going through.
and they had no real damage.
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I would love to see those accounts... I can't believe any german plane would make it home with 100 fifty cal hits (100 hits=200 holes).. I watch gun cam footage too and it seems that they come apart long before that. In AH I think it takes about 30 hits to down a german plane but sometimes they will make it away after 50 or more.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
I would love to see those accounts... I can't believe any german plane would make it home with 100 fifty cal hits (100 hits=200 holes).. I watch gun cam footage too and it seems that they come apart long before that. In AH I think it takes about 30 hits to down a german plane but sometimes they will make it away after 50 or more.
lazs
Col. "Kit" Carson:
The 190 pilots had a good airplane and some good advice. Nearly all of my encounters with the 190 were at high speeds. On at least two occasions when I met them, in my Mustang started porposing, which means I was into compressibility, probably around 550 mph. I don't know what my air speed indicator was reading, I wasn't watching it.
On another occasion, I jumped one directly over the city of Paris and fired all my ammo, but he was only smoking heavily after a long chase over the town. Assuming I was getting 10 percent hits, that airplane must have had 200 holes in it. It was a rugged machine.
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Originally posted by Grendel
Col. "Kit" Carson:
... fired all my ammo ... Assuming I was getting 10 percent hits ...
I don't think spray'n'pray dweebs score 10%.
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Can't seem to get to the site. Anyone have these films on a mirror?
Terror
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Originally posted by Terror
Can't seem to get to the site. Anyone have these films on a mirror?
Terror
Ditto:(
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same..:(
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And Here :(
TTFN
snafu