Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: StSanta on November 22, 2002, 06:12:45 AM
-
Erakat says:
"We cannot accept the official Israeli accusations against the Palestinian Authority and Arafat," Erakat said.
"We reiterate that the only way to stop this vicious cycle is through resumption of a meaningful peace process that would lead to the end of Israeli occupation."
Similar to what's been said after previous terrorist attacks (and I am para-phrasing)
"We do not condone the killing of innocents, be it israelis or the women and children assasinated by the Israeli military. It can only end by peaceful negotiation and the removal of all israeli troops and settlements from Palestinian territory"
I'd be the first to say that Sharon is a bastard stunninghunk. But.
I read the statements above as "this will continue, with our implicit blessing, until you get the hell outta our land".
To narrow down what I wish to discuss, let's not discuss the legitimacy of the Palestinian claim or whether the Israelis are in violation of international law. Let's also stay away from the issue of right to defend the sovreignety and people of [insert either Palestine and Palestinian people or Israel/Israeli people here]".
My question: do you not read this as an implicit or even direct support for the terrorists attacks? And, if so, would anything short of a total withdrawal satisfy the PLO? Hamas and the other organisations will not be satisfied since they want the destruction of israel, but let's focus on the PLO (if possible).
Lemme hear yer opinions.
-
or it could be realistic assumption in the matter - people will blow themselves to kill israelis, until Israel isn't deemed a threat to palestinians.
-
Israel is occupier, just like Iraq, Nazi-germany, Russia and several other countries were before.
I can't see anything wrong killing invading forces, wether they exists in military (IDF) or civilian form (settlers in occupied areas).
-
score
Finland 2 = support killing children on buses, schools, women at markets, teenagers at dance halls
after all Israel is just like Nazi Germany :rolleyes:
StSanta
Of course they are condoning the terrorism. They always have.
Nope, the Pals wil not be happy until the Jews are dead
I think our Fin friends are alittle confusion as to which side they should compare the Nazis to....
-
Fin's have a long history of ostracizing certain ethnic groups of people, Eagler. In Norway there were around 10,000 children born of parents who were members of Vidkum Quisling's pro-Nazi party, and of love affairs between Norwegian girls and German soldiers. After the war, these children were rejected as so-called 'German kids', maltreated and despised, treated with contempt, in fact refugees in their own country. Considered social misfits, few have received a proper education. To relieve Norway of this embarrassing problem Sweden adopted a few hundred of these children and around 250 were sent to homes in Germany. In 1986, 'The League of Norwegian War Children Lebensborn' was established. Through its efforts, many of these children have found their unknown fathers. Now, 50 years later, these war children only wish 'integration and acceptance with following freedom from anguish'. Today, the League maintains contact with around two hundred former NS children.
-
The Palestinian claim to the land around the Jordan River is no stronger than that of the Israelis.
Most of the so-called Palestinians are descended from groups that migrated into the region at the end of Turkish rule and during the time of the British Mandate. They are Turks and Syrians and Egyptians and several other ethnic groups. Native Jews and Arabs whose ancestors had been living peacefully beside each other for centuries have played little part in the violence that has surrounded the history of Israel since its birth in 1948.
Much of the violence had its beginning with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. For those of you not familiar with him, he was the leader of the Muslims of Jerusalem during the time of the Second World War. He was a guest of Hitler during the War and had some ex-Nazis in his employ after the war ended. I believe it was he that said of the Jewish immigrants who founded Israel, "Kill them...kill them all!"
If the Israelis have been stiff-necked in their dealings with the Palestinian leadership it would be wise to ponder the nature of their adversaries. Muslims are commanded by the Koran to honor all treaties with their enemies. But they are bound to honor them only so long as their enemies do. Quite often they look for any violation of the treaty, no matter how trivial, as an excuse to set it aside.
This isn't a blanket condemnation of Palestinians or their leaders. But Arafat and his henchmen are dishonest and duplicitous in their dealings with the Israelis. Before the Helsinki Peace Talks, Arafat was considered one of the world's most dangerous terrorists. I refuse to believe that he has had a change of heart.
Regards, Shuckins
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Fin's have a long history of ostracizing certain ethnic groups of people, Eagler. In Norway there were around 10,000 children born of parents who were members of Vidkum Quisling's pro-Nazi party, and of love affairs between Norwegian girls and German soldiers. After the war, these children were rejected as so-called 'German kids', maltreated and despised, treated with contempt, in fact refugees in their own country. Considered social misfits, few have received a proper education. To relieve Norway of this embarrassing problem Sweden adopted a few hundred of these children and around 250 were sent to homes in Germany. In 1986, 'The League of Norwegian War Children Lebensborn' was established. Through its efforts, many of these children have found their unknown fathers. Now, 50 years later, these war children only wish 'integration and acceptance with following freedom from anguish'. Today, the League maintains contact with around two hundred former NS children.
How does Finland have anything to do with any of this that happened in Norway??
"Fin's have a long history of ostracizing certain ethnic groups of people"
What exactly do you mean by this?? It has NOTHING to do with our country's history nor present.
It's funny as you mentioned it though considering how native americans ("indians") and african americans were treated in the "land of the free".
-
I didn't know Finns were Norwegians.
-
They all look alike to me. :)
-
Originally posted by funkedup
I didn't know Finns were Norwegians.
Me neither.
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
They all look alike to me. :)
You consider it ok to spout BS like this: "Fin's have a long history of ostracizing certain ethnic groups of people". And then act like it's a joke??
np, I'll remember that in the future...
-
Busted!
-
relax my blond european FIN or Norwegian friend.:p
ripsnort is uneducated and a freak with an opinion.
I think you all suck sheep dung anyways:eek: ...you you you pansie leather lovin luftweenie FIN or Norwegian friend.
Long live North America.....land of the free....if ya got money:D
-
classic
-
Isn't Finland just the back side of that hangy down thing at the top left of Europe?
-
bahahahahaha:D
-
Americans have a long history of confusing certain groups of obscure northern elk-humping peasants.
-
and bringing hurtfull totaly irrelevent insults for no good reason apperently. and yall are defenting him ? blood er roadkill is thicker than water.
part of the american dream granpa didnt tell me about.
-
Yeah I'm defending him. :rolleyes:
He made an bellybutton of himself in obvious and spectacular fashion.
I doubt any punishment we can provide will make his embarassment any greater than it already is.
Like your personal vendetta against him and others isn't "hurtful and irrelevant"...
-
Defending a guy who is lying face down in the gutter of nonsensical conclusions?
Hardly.
-
Hmm...don't quite understand what you are talking about. :confused:
funked, was that last comment of yours directed at me?
-
No Wmaker I'm responding to dolf vader.
-
Ok...I *totally* lost you guys...vendetta between who? Some earlier incident I might not know about?
Ahh...might be just me tough...too much elk humping I guess. :)
-
LOL Sorry :)
-
Any one who can compare Israel to NAZI Germany has a serious intellect issue. Please stop wasting the atmosphere.
-
Originally posted by 2Slow
Any one who can compare Israel to NAZI Germany has a serious intellect issue. Please stop wasting the atmosphere.
there are many obvious and valid comparisons:
- they both have highly restricted travel for an underclass comprised of people with big noses.
- both flew Me109 and fought against Spitfires.
- the french hate both of them.
- both have chosen a bioget butcher to lead them
how intelligent can you get if you decide everyone who disagrees with you is a moron?
-
..or what?
Yeah, I'm dumb fck. In Mensa's test I scored to top 5%.
btw it's time to tell your kids that Santa can't drop packets in christmas, I just ate Rudolph.
-
i aced the mensa test too, but i'm also not stupid enough to waste money to become a member
-
peace! peace! we want peace!
but wait lets kill these people first then we can have peace. No wait these are against our peace too we need to kill them as well. ok we killed everyone who opposes peace, lets have peace.
no wait look over there
-
Let's get back to the issue.
Which is: how do you feel about the Palestinian implicit support for terrorism, if you see their statement as such?
I do not see it as a 'realisti view' on things. Even though for instance in the US, realistically, more people will die from terror attacks, the US CONDEMNS the attacks in the strongest possible terms.
We haven't seen this from the Palestinians.
before anyone yells "what about the Israelis?", let me just say that I'll address that in another thread.
Oh, a thread. Let's just have a conditional wait here, and I'll signal from the other one.
-
Bah, ya need to be in top 2% to become a member.
But why bother joining elitist idiots who think they're special because they score well on some arbitrary non scientific 45 minute test?
Hell, if *I* can get admitted, anyone can. I stay away from any organisation that is 'exclusive' yet still allows me to become a member.
Mensa my big fat arse.
And that ain't Rudolph in that can. that's Rudolhpes gay lover. he got the reindeer equivalent of syphilis, so we had to take 'im out.
Stupid to spoil good meat though. Think we cut the infected bits away, but cannot rememer. Was too drunk at the time, and Rudolph needed 'company'.
-
Oh man this thread is funny. I almost bust a gut @ Ripsnort there.
-
Originally posted by StSanta
But why bother joining elitist idiots who think they're special because they score well on some arbitrary non scientific 45 minute test?
Hell, if *I* can get admitted, anyone can. I stay away from any organisation that is 'exclusive' yet still allows me to become a member.
Mensa my big fat arse.
My toughts exactly. :)
-
Originally posted by StSanta
I stay away from any organisation that is 'exclusive' yet still allows me to become a member.
I think Groucho said it first. :p
-
Over to the topic of the thread.
From a leagal point of view the Palestinians are screwed. The only legit claim they have to "their" land is to claim the right to self determination. That right is about as fuzzy as they come, and not one of the permanent members of the security counsel want to enforce that one.
Here is a short list of reasons why:
China=Tibet
Russia=Tchecnya (have NO idea how to spell that in English)
US=native americans
UK=Northern Ireland
France=French Guyana, Bikini atoll etc
From a strictly legal point of view, Israel holds all the cards. The legal status of the West Bank and Gaza strip is abandoned land under Israeli occupation. Note that occupation in this sence means occupied like in something you found on the ground and picked up, or some old settler way back in the 1870:s who moved to a piece of uninhabited land and built a house there. Not in the sence what Germany did to Poland during ww2-kinda way.
There are 4 reasons as to why there never will be a negotiated peace in Israel, they are:
Water rights
Status of Jerusalem
Right of Palestinian refugees to return
Right of Jewish settlers to live where they live now.
Each one of these is serious enough to put a halt to any peace process. Each one of these is important enough for both sides to refuse to yeild an inch.
Israels only problem legal-wise is their tendancy to blow up Palestinian Ambulances or residential areas. That might get Israel into trouble with international law, but not in a way that will benefit the Palestinians (because the US holds a protective hand over Israel in the security counsel).
-
<Water rights
Status of Jerusalem
Right of Palestinian refugees to return
Right of Jewish settlers to live where they live now.>>
I think Barak had offered the PA what they claimed to want on all of these except #3. The reason there will never be a negotiated peace is because the Moslem world doesn't want one. Israel is nothing like Nazi Germany or Iraq, regardless of what the Norwegians think.
ra
-
nm
-
No...Barak offered alot, but he did not give the Pal refugees the right to return (note, such a right would place the Jews in minority in Israel, it would be kinda bad) neither did he give Jerusalem to the Pals.
Maybe he gave away the settlers, but I doubt it, same with the water. Giving up the settlements = political suicide in Israel, giving up water rights = water has to be bought from Turkey = Water have to travel in pipelines from Turkey to Israel (i e Through Syria) = Syria has control over Israel's water = practical suicide.
-
in the USA, native americans have the same rights as every one else, in some cases they have even more rights.
-
-
Hmmm Americans and Geography :)
Daff
-
"Israel is nothing like Nazi Germany"
Your on thin ice.
Not to excuse the idiot palestinians but:
Genocide, the only difference is the method used....and israel is a avid practicioner of it.
Refugee camps are not far removed from "concentration" camps.
Treating people as sub-humans.
I.E. water deprivation, forcible removal by arms from lands they live on, armed israelis preventing pals from harvesting crops/working their fields.
Many aspects of Israeli policy are far from benevolent, a more apt term would be dispicable.
I don't buy the "imaginary friend" gave us the land argument either.
We should build an "Escape from New York" type fence around them both , arm them equally and let them settle their dispute.
-
Originally posted by weazel
...We should build an "Escape from New York" type fence around them both , arm them equally and let them settle their dispute.
maybe, but if we disarmed them completely, it would be much a more biblical battle & much better TV
-
Gotta admit, for a while there was the pro-Israeli camp and pro-Raghead camp, split about 50/50. Now the world has pretty much come to the conclusion their both really diddlyed up and this will not stop til they've wiped each other out.
As for Ripsnort vs the Fin's, well everyone saw that National Geographic report than 9 out of every 10 yanks gets lost coming back from the donut shop, so I think the Fin's should forgive him :D
-
The UN needs to enforce the resolutions from the peace agreement from the 1967 war. The Israeli's are just as much to blame as the rest. They need to get the hell out of occupied land's as agreed to in the peace agreement. Stop making new settelments in occupied lands. But its allready too late the childred from both sides learn nothing but hate even if they met all the demands of the Muslums the killing will still continue. Peace will never come to the middle east neither side has the ability to forgive and forget. The only way the fighting will ever stop is the total destruction of one side or the other. Its too bad the rest of the world has to pay with the lives of innocents for the inbread hatred of people with not the ability nor want for peace. This fight goes way back past the time Israel was created. If there was only one Israeli and one Muslum left in the world they would still fight to the death. Of coarse first they would have to kill any innocent bystanders that happend to be in the area.
-
I think Groucho said it first.
Who's Groucho?
Wiat, it's one of those stoog things right?
Other than that, interesting thread. There's some disagreement about who's to blame but there sems to be a general understanding now that with the current leadership in place, nothing can be done. And part of the population in both areas don't want anything to be done.
Barak bent backwards so much he lost his post. The next PM isn't likely to do so. The Palestinians should have gone for the compromise when they had the chance. Hopefully there'll be another one.
-
Nope, there will be war, and it will be bloody as hell.
-
The Palestinianians should have gone for a deal with Barak? Well, they made a deal with Rabin, and as soon he and his temp. replacement Peres were gone Netanyahu immediately reversed all measures taken to comply with Oslo. Don't you think they have the right to be a little suspicious about any and all agreement with the Israelis. Let's face it, if not for the largely Israeli caused demise of Oslo the Palestinian Auth. probably would have accepted the package Barak offered them, though the Israelis did not compromise that much, they did so with Rabin after all.
Sadly any chance of peace has gone since Sharon rose to power and probably will be succeeded by netanyahu, who is probably more of an extremist than Mullah Omar and Saddam rolled into one with a touch of you know who, and Yasser arafat has lost the authority and support needed for forcing through a peace compromise with the Palestinian people. This will roll on for a few decades till anyone will step in (i.e. UN, US or both)
-
Originally posted by john9001
in the USA, native americans have the same rights as every one else, in some cases they have even more rights.
Shame there are so few of them left to enjoy these lovely rights tho
oh and I almost forgot
Ripsnort & Geography ? ROTFLMFAO
-
That right is about as fuzzy as they come, and not one of the permanent members of the security counsel want to enforce that one.
Here is a short list of reasons why:
China=Tibet
Russia=Tchecnya (have NO idea how to spell that in English)
US=native americans
UK=Northern Ireland
France=French Guyana, Bikini atoll etc
I don't know about the others, but the US has nothing to fear from native American self determination, and Northern Ireland already has self determination. A large majority wish to remain part of the UK.
Water rights
Status of Jerusalem
Right of Palestinian refugees to return
Right of Jewish settlers to live where they live now.>>
I think Barak had offered the PA what they claimed to want on all of these except #3.
Barak offered the Palestinians limited control over some Arab areas of East Jerusalem, but no sovereignty over the area.
He agreed to the right of return of around 100,000 refugees.
Water rights were to remain with Israel, and the Palestinians get an increased "quota"
Almost all the Jewish settlers would remain in place, with some very odd borders drawn up to encompass them.
Sharon has ruled out negotiations with the Palestinians until some undefined date in the future, and has made great efforts to stiffle any political contacts that did take place.
The new Labor party (2nd largest party in Israel) leader, Mitzna, is promising immediate negotiations, and a 1 year deadline for them to succeed, before a unilateral Israeli pull-out from most of the West Bank and Gaza.
The only hope for peace is that things can't continue as they are idefinately. Sharon has promised security, but presided over the largest number of attacks in Israel's history. The Israeli economy is in great difficulty, and the cost of keeping the settlements means cuts in the health, education, social security and defence budgets.
-
Originally posted by Nashwan
I don't know about the others, but the US has nothing to fear from native American self determination, and Northern Ireland already has self determination. A large majority wish to remain part of the UK.
Yes, interesting isn't it?
The Irish lose at Kinsale and a few years later the Scots are pouring in to the Ulster "Plantation".
You pump enough Scotsmen into Northern Ireland over a century or three and the next thing you know they're calling it "home". :D
But hey, it was a long time ago and you stole it fair and square by force of arms, so it's OK now.
Same deal with Native Americans here, right?
The Israelis are just late to the party. Stealing land by force of arms is no longer fashionable. Ask Saddam about Kuwait, for instance. There has to be at least a century or two of age on the act before it's "OK". Just ask Boroda about Chechnya. ;)
-
There has to be at least a century or two of age on the act before it's "OK".
Yes, there does.
Compensating populations who were removed centuries ago, at the expense of those who live there now, isn't right.
You can't solve an ancient injustice with a modern injustice.
-
So, if the Israelis can get away with their massive land grab all will be forgiven by the rest of the morally superior world in about 2200-2300 right?
;)
-
Originally posted by Eagler
score
Finland 2 = support killing children on buses, schools, women at markets, teenagers at dance halls
after all Israel is just like Nazi Germany :rolleyes:
I think our Fin friends are alittle confusion as to which side they should compare the Nazis to....
It's quite amazing how far you've made assumptions based on one sentence I gave, where isn't told anything of my personal opinions in the matter.
I only gave another logical assumption to think about.
I suggest you take that back, since it's all made up by yourself alone.
-
Oh I did left Eaglers post on its own, wasn't worth of replying :)
-
Ahoi STSanta :)
1. Nazi- Germany killed 6 mill jews + forced most others to
leave europe.
2. The western countries felt guilty after the war because they
left they jews all alone 1933- 1945.
3. So western countries gave land to the jews to have their
own country.
4. So far so good. Only problem was that land already
belonged to someone else- the palastinians.
5.Who can ever tell the difference between a terrorist and a
freedom fighter?
If Germany were evaded by Denmark ;) and
the danish occupants would bring their families over here after a
fictional war any guerrilla group would target that civilians
sooner or later because they don't have the force to really
engage the enemy forces.
6. Point 1-5 doesn't mean I like the way palestinian groups attack
israelian civilians but i sure dislike the israelian politics either.
blitz
-
So, if the Israelis can get away with their massive land grab all will be forgiven by the rest of the morally superior world in about 2200-2300 right?
Yes. Imagine the situation in 2300.
10 million Israelis live in Israel, including the West Bank and Gaza. They haven't stolen any land, they aren't intimidating Arabs off their land, rationing their water, shooting people who break curfew, etc.
Their parents didn't even do that, nor their grandparents, maybe their great grandparents. How can you compensate Palestinians, who have lived for several generations in Jordan and Egypt, by giving them the West Bank and Gaza, when that land is full of Israelis who have done nothing wrong?
The situation now is that the West Bank and Gaza are full of Palestinians who are being driven off their land, denied basic human rights, adequate water, access to medical care etc, in order to make room for Israeli settlers who wish to move in to the area at the expense of the indigenous population.
Almost every country in the world is largely inhabited by an ethnic group who invaded and ethnically cleansed the previous population. It's not right by todays standards, but trying to change things back to the way things were hundreds of years ago would be worse. That doesn't mean it's right to carry on invading and ethnically cleansing countries.
-
after the roman conquest of judea, jews were scattered all over the world but thousands of years later never managed to assimilate anywhere - instead trying to maintain their 'nation within a nation' thing until they could get israel back. this was exeplified by baron de rothschild imo who despite his power chose to be "a jew among kings" rather than "a king among jews" as the saying goes.
this didn't start in 1948- zionism really took hold in the late 1800's. jewish fanatics started advocating any means possible to get zion back. they've been trying to force isreal into being an exclusively jewish state since day one- conning the arabs out of land isn't new it just happened on a grand scal since '48.
WWII just gave them the sympathy spin they needed to make their lobby more effective and to get world powers to back them with force in their conquest. that sad face and the 6 million dead story has kept people quiet and in line ever since -
if you can't see the creation if israel as an extension of zionist ideology of the late 19th century then i don't know what to tell you other than turn off msnbc and pick up a book.
as for st santa's specific question, "do you not read this as an implicit or even direct support for the terrorists attacks? And, if so, would anything short of a total withdrawal satisfy the PLO? "
i read it as political roadkill from a politician- but common sense tells me of course they support terrorist attacks and as long as the west bank is occupied they'll at least have some support-
once the israelis backed out they'd have to stop the attacks because what would they argue then? they won't get all their land back but they can at least get out the ghetto and form their own little crappy smelly country. the israeli's likewise should be happy with the land they stole and get over it -
-
Isreal is ignoring UN relolutions, just like Iraq time. Guess the US and Britain should invade. :D
-
Originally posted by Nashwan
Almost every country in the world is largely inhabited by an ethnic group who invaded and ethnically cleansed the previous population.
[/b]
Oh yes, indeed. I agree. So who shall cast the first stone?
It's not right by todays standards, but trying to change things back to the way things were hundreds of years ago would be worse. That doesn't mean it's right to carry on invading and ethnically cleansing countries.
Oh yes, indeed. I agree. Not only is it not right by today's standards, it wasn't right by any standards at any time.
They just got away with it, that's all. By force of arms. There was no "UN", no "League of Nations" or "international community" to turn to for succor. Either you triumphed by arms or you were enslaved by arms.
It isn't right and it NEVER was right. They just got away with more before WW2.
-
Originally posted by weazel
Refugee camps are not far removed from "concentration" camps.
Oh man..you just managed to reach a whole new level of stupidity. Impressive.
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
Isreal is ignoring UN relolutions, just like Iraq time. Guess the US and Britain should invade. :D
Which ones? And DO remember that there is a difference between general assembly resolutions and security counsel resolutions.
You may answer now.
-
Originally posted by Nashwan
The situation now is that the West Bank and Gaza are full of Palestinians who are being driven off their land, denied basic human rights, adequate water, access to medical care etc, in order to make room for Israeli settlers who wish to move in to the area at the expense of the indigenous population.
Almost every country in the world is largely inhabited by an ethnic group who invaded and ethnically cleansed the previous population. It's not right by todays standards, but trying to change things back to the way things were hundreds of years ago would be worse. That doesn't mean it's right to carry on invading and ethnically cleansing countries.
Dont worry, the Pals can always attempt to get reparations in a couple of hundred years.
-
Originally posted by Hortlund
You may answer now.
does everyone argue like a pouty 14 year old nerd in your country or just you?
here's a list of un security council resolutions on the middle east,
http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/special-edition/terrorism50/unresolu.htm
or if you don't like the source(icky moslems), you can search the jewish virtual library:
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/UN/sctoc.html#1979
1979, resolution 452 seems applicable as isreal is still building settlements in arab territories. if you don't think so then how about a grown up argument as to why...
-
Originally posted by Hortlund
You may answer now.
Looks like mrfish anwsered first, I guess he gets the lollipop. :(
-
The Palestinian charter states that the destruction of Isreal is a palestinian goal . Untill this mindset is extinct negotiations are pointless .
Here's an interesting tidbit, some TV show I think Frontline did a survey in egypt, the results of which were that 80% believed that Jews were responsible for the 9/11 attack .
-
Hortlund, do a quick google search on Israel and Security Council Resolutions...you might just be surprised...there's been many since 1967, *demanding* Israel to pull back to the pre-67 borders...but hey...who cares...as long as we get to nuke Iraq.
"UK=Northern Ireland"
Nice try, but there's 3 factions in NI: People who want a indenpendent NI, people who want to join the Irish Republic and people who want to stay in the UK.
Daff
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
Looks like mrfish anwsered first, I guess he gets the lollipop. :(
sorry thrawn - something about "nanny-nanny-booby" posts gives me an itchy posting finger - find a way to forgive me, i'll go hide ;)
-
I hate people that hate. Its a visious cycle but someones gotta ride it........
-
Refugee camps looks more like a ghettoes than concentration camps to me.