Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Special Events General => Topic started by: Tilt on November 22, 2002, 08:17:19 AM
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For various reasons we demand that folk are in properly named squads at the beginning of each scenario frame. Thats a given.
However lately whilst waiting for significant numbers (20+)of late arrivals to sort them selves out we have effectively delayed the start of a frame. (upto 20 minutes delay)
The other given is that the only alternative is to start on time and ask those not ready to leave and eject those not ready that do not leave.
So whats your opinion?
a)In order not keep 300 odd waiting whilst 20 plus poorly organised late comers sort them selves out, should we say sorry too late to the late comers?
b)Should we accommodate those who come late and unready so we can all enjoy stuff together if later?
This is not a vote ...... its just a bit of "market research" just answer a or b and add anything else below.
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My "Vote" Goes for Boot'em, they knew before hand to be on time!
BTW did you guys Know HiTech is a PUTZ Dweeb!
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My opinion speaking as a CM is well-known in the CM forum! :)
Speaking as a player, I think the most enjoyable scenarios are the ones that are run efficiently and professionally. This includes starting promptly on time.
Every player has a responsibility to know the start time and get themselves in the arena and into a squadron well in advance of launch time. IMO the CM's should not punish those who are organized and on time by making them wait for the late-comers to get organized.
The best solution is to educate the players in advance as to what is expected of them if they want to participate, and then adhere to the timetable as scheduled. The late-comers will learn the hard way that they need to work on their organizational skills.
That's my take on it from a player's perspective.
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As long as you give enough time for walkons to get into the squads properly and get briefed. When you don't grab walkons until 5 minutes before frame start, there needs to be time to get them integrated.
Optionally, you need to grab walkons earlier and take away reserved slots that have shown up late.
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Originally posted by banana
The best solution is to educate the players in advance as to what is expected of them if they want to participate, and then adhere to the timetable as scheduled. The late-comers will learn the hard way that they need to work on their organizational skills.
That's my take on it from a player's perspective.
He's right. A lot of walkons either don't know how to withdraw from their former SEA squad or don't know to relog after accepting an invite. That seems to me to be the main reason for the slowness of getting squads in order.
Maybe 'Scenario Walk-on Primer' needs to be posted in the forums. Atleast IF they read it they will have a bit more of a clue as to what to expect.
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Start it on time and everyone will learn the hard way ;)
As it is now I "know" it will not start on time so therefore I tend to show up "just in time" or a little late beacause it is f****g boooring to sit in tower and wait from 40 min (or more) before start time and then 20 min more untill roll call
If I knew it would start on time, then I would show up early
And I think many feel this way, "-no need to show up early it will not start on time anyway"
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a. The only way the community as a whole will get more organised is if the organisational rules are generally enforced. Whilst it's not possible to legislate for every eventuality ahead of time, and there may often be cases where it'd make sense or be fair to allow a little leeway, turning up on time in particular should be fairly strict, IMO. Thing is, many folks will have things to do after game end, so if the game is delayed so a handful of extra folk can take part, rather larger numbers may need to exit early.
As a suggestion, maybe some smaller, simple one-offs could be run with similar strict rules regarding game start (or game cancelled if not enough show up on time). Inevitably there'd be newbies popping in to see what's on, theyd get to hear about games run to those rules, be intrigued and so look out for the next one, if theyre reasonably frequesnt. Then when a big event like this pops up, more of em would know what to do.
Well.. it's a nice theory, anyway... :-}
A gets my vote, anyway.
Esme
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One of the things I hate about scenarios is people turning up late.
If a pilot is not there on time (at least 30 minutes before takeoff) then they should go to the back of the que.
We need a better system for walkons, they should be sent to an inactive field where they are sent to a GL by the XO. The GL will then send them to an FL. FLs report shortagets to GLs and GLs report the total shortages to the XO.
We tried this in BoB and it would have worked fine if the FLs had been there on time! At the moment it is difficult to see who is a walkon and who has forgot to relog.
We should not keep slots open for pilots we 'expect' to turn up, then grab walkons at the last minute when we realise they are not coming. This is the major cause of late starts IMO.
Anyone not in a squad at T0 should be booted.
AndyH
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Originally posted by AndyH
Anyone not in a squad at T0 should be booted.
AndyH
That is what we did today basically.
We told the CO's that at T+0 we would launch REGARDLESS of Squad Problems. This way it starts on time.
We gave them till T+10 to get those not in a squad into SOME SQUAD. IF they had to augor and come back in we counted it as a disco.
At T+10 we started to dump those not in a squad reagdless. I think we had just 1 IJN pilot and about 8 US Pilots at that point to dump.
This seemed to have worked out better than frames 1-2-3.
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Dump em. I know myself that if I can't make a frame on time it's tough luck for me. I believe the same for the rest of them. It may seem cruel, I guess they could gun as the only thing they should be allowed but otherwise no late fliers.
We post times for these things, sorry my opinion.
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Once we get BETTER Squad management tools this particular problem will become a non-factor.
Now that HTC can see that the DEMAND for Scenarios has increased by almost 100% we should see some improvements.
With the ability to hold 500+ pilots the next scenario should be even bigger.
Thanks forall of your comments all !
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Originally posted by AndyH
One of the things I hate about scenarios is people turning up late.
If a pilot is not there on time (at least 30 minutes before takeoff) then they should go to the back of the que.
We need a better system for walkons, they should be sent to an inactive field where they are sent to a GL by the XO. The GL will then send them to an FL. FLs report shortagets to GLs and GLs report the total shortages to the XO.
We tried this in BoB and it would have worked fine if the FLs had been there on time! At the moment it is difficult to see who is a walkon and who has forgot to relog.
We should not keep slots open for pilots we 'expect' to turn up, then grab walkons at the last minute when we realise they are not coming. This is the major cause of late starts IMO.
Anyone not in a squad at T0 should be booted.
AndyH
Couldn't have said it better myself... AndyH
Biggest delays on the USN side were due to walkons coming in at the last minute that had to be coached step by step on how to get in a squad... Second biggest delay was caused by waiting till the last minute for FL's to show up... No excuse for FL no shows without notification to the Command Staff... This causes much confusion and is extremely time consuming to get straightend out in the last few minutes before TO.
I would in the next scenario make it mandatory that FL and GL along with Command Staff be required to report 1 hour before takeoff or potentially lose thier command... (at the discretion of the CO)
Many did indeed report thier absense in advance along with thier designated replacements... This ran very smooth... It needs to be incorporated in the Scenario Rules.
My .02 cents worth
BOOT
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Agreed, if you are a flight leader you should be there at least 45 minutes to an hour prior to takeoff. It takes that long to get the group together, make chanes if ncessary, and in general get the grabb bellybutton under control.
I tried very hard to be there at least 45 minutes prior to takeoff. Two of those flights I worked until 7am the day of the flight, that meant I got about 3 hours of sleep before logging in.
If I can make it with that then I don't buy too many excuses.
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Perhaps it would help if the first squad member to arrive in the arena formed the squad and gave everyone invite privileges, so that anyone could then invite other members. If for any reason the squad has to be disbanded before the next frame, the first person into the arena the following week, on discovering they are no longer in a squad then repeats the process. This way, there is no hanging around waiting for an FL to arrive to start the process. Of course, it would help if the original person forming the squad was not involved in any squad-based events such as the TODs in the meantime, and therefore didn't need to disband the squad in between frames. Main thing is, everyone gets invite privileges so that as long as there is at least one member in the arena, others won't be left waiting. :)
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If the FL is not there the GL/XO does not know who to ask for a shortage report. The FL or named deputy needs to be there.
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Main thing is, everyone gets invite privileges so that as long as there is at least one member in the arena, others won't be left waiting.
Very Important rule... This along with instructions on how to set up a squad would be a nice touch... I spent a lot of time instructing pilots with missing FL's how to set up a squadron... They had never done it before.
Love ya Flossy XOXOXOXXO
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Why not let those who are ready depart.. it takes a bit to get each squad off anyway. Some flights are close in like CAP of the carrier groups. Any late arrivals can join them if space is available.
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Originally posted by BOOT
Very Important rule... This along with instructions on how to set up a squad would be a nice touch... I spent a lot of time instructing pilots with missing FL's how to set up a squadron... They had never done it before.
Love ya Flossy XOXOXOXXO
Maybe we can produce some kind of "Idiots Guide" to scenario participation, which would-be participants could download - maybe linked to the registration page of a scenario? I have a similar guide which I downloaded when I started playing in AW scenarios and it helped me understand them a lot better. :)
XOXOXOX Boot! ;)
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B) BOOT Em!
The times are well publicized. The squads assignments are beat to death by hard working people, often weeks in advance. Why hold everyone else up for a few slackers?
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One Urgent need for a Scenario of this side is a Roster of Each
Sides and Squad sent to each registered player.
This way when a new face is seen it can be deterimined if it is a registered member, a squaddie to be put in uniform and invited.
Further All members of the registered Squad should have Formation and invite priviliges. The late arrival of "the only member who has such privilages" has in the past caused delays and confusion.
The Walkon Manager should have a sheet showing several names for each Squad. A late GL or FL does not have to result in the squad getting no walkons because the recognized name was not there to direct the walkon as he was assigned.
The Members of the Squads should be informed of the planning and furnished final orders for the each frame at least two days before the frame date. (Several of the recent Scenarios/TOD's have not had a single piece of informations sent to registered squad members before the event.) Flying in the blind with out knowing what the overall plan is does not make for a fruitful scenario - and it makes the scenario VERY LITTLE FUN..
If "spies are suspected", ask them, then tell them it is not permitted. -- and throw `em out, not to be a participant in any frame of the current scenario. We can certainly depend upon the integrity of 99.9% of our participants. The word will get around its not nice to be a spy. :)
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Having participated in almost a dozen AW scenarios and every AH scenario since I became a member, there is one definate difference between the AH and AW scenarios that most certainly contributes to start time delays as well as having less fun in AH scenarios.
In just about every AW scenario, the CO, XO, and GL's were selected and briefed on general plans such as rides, radio channels, uniforms, and other non-sensitive information. Each squad generally practiced once or twice a week in their assigned rides. Each squad member usually received 3-5 emails PER WEEK (!) in the two weeks preceeding the first frame, and several between frames. Our squads would know what to do, what uniform to wear, how to tune their radio, and knew their aircraft a day before the event frame. We had our act together (generally).
This, I believe, is the AH problem. In the last scenario (Midway, but any of the last several would qualify), we received exactly 0 emails from our CO/GL/FL and we had exactly 0 practices (that I was aware of). None of us in our squad had a clue as to our mission, our routine operation parameters, had received any emails, or were even consulted as to what we, the squad members, wanted. I believe this to suck really bad. At first, I thought it was our FL. After about 5 minutes into frame 1, I figured out that our FL has forgotten more about AH then I'll ever learn. No, it seems that the problem lies at a much higher level. Our FL knew his stuff...he just didnt know how to apply it due to a lack of operational planning he was not told to email his squad with the required information. He was NOT provided with the required information. TOD's have far more communication than major scenario's. That is a shame. These major scenario's should blow away what we see in TOD.
We REALLY need to get our act together to make AH absolutely the best scenario software on the Internet. We have the tools. This software is wonderful. We just need to apply these tools.
Quite honestly, I feel that we are relying far too much on the bulletin boards and not nearly enough on email. Simple things such as uniform format (yes, I saw the recent writeup...somebody is on the ball, hehe), radio channel assignment, ride, and squad practices should be handled far in advance.
My two cents....rant over
Ed561
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I couldn't agree more - lack of communication has been something I have noticed in most of my scenarios here, and there is too much reliance on people reading the boards. I also received very little in the way of email this time, apart from a brief introductory message before the scenario started.... orders were not despatched to the group and I ended up posting them from those I saw in the private forum.... even then, there was no discussion about them or even any comments made by the rest of the group. When I think of the vast number of emails I used to receive in AW, and the detailed plans, worked out to the minute so that we were all coordinated and knew exactly where we were supposed to be and when; though I appreciate the nature of Midway meant a need for more flexibility.... we really need to address this lack of communication in future scenarios. :)
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If you want to see an example of how a good FL communicates the information to his squad, check this link.
http://stvuk.brinkster.net/Midway___2002/index.asp
Dstar had to take over from me as a GL (Yorktown attack officer) and VB3 flight leader with less than 2 weeks notice.
He updated the website each week with the latest frame orders and communications information, the URL was only known to registered squad members.
The information on the website is simply a collation of the necessary information communicated by the command staff, a summary was also emailed to each squad member before each frame.
Regards,
AndyH
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Originally posted by Ed561
This, I believe, is the AH problem. In the last scenario (Midway, but any of the last several would qualify), we received exactly 0 emails from our CO/GL/FL and we had exactly 0 practices (that I was aware of).
Ed561
As RAF XO in BoB I received 407 emails related to the scenario, it looks like I sent about 200.
The roster was posted on a web site, and updated constantly.
http://www.ahope.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/bob/
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I understand the frustration of not recieving orders and information. Iv flown AH scenarios and I have see the lack of communication myself.
I really did try to improve the information flow and get people involved.
For the IJN we did have about 14 different practice sessions to allow IJN pilots a chance to work on their skills and get to know each other. The Dates were both posted here and sent out via Email to Group leaders and staff.
We also had a Beta Frame to spar and see if any bugs could be brought to light. Do to the terrain not being ready the week before Frame 1, This wasnt as well attended as I had hope. Still I belive it was a first for AH.
Mission oders where both Emailed to the GLs and Posted on the BBS each Frame. I recognised the possibility that a GL might fail to get the information out to his flight, so everything was doubled up so a pilot could always look here and find out his role.
Mission Planning was done both via Email and the BBS, again we tried to make the information and feed back as available as possible.
Each week of Midway I had about 150 Emails. Probably only about half of those required a reply. Replies where also made to questions raised here on the BBS.
We honestly tried to get the information out as best we could. Also the information was availble here always, if a person took the time to look. We used Both mediums because differnt pilots have different preferences.
With Email there is always the chance your GL will drop the ball. The only way to prevent this is for the Commander in Chief to Email each pilot individualy with each peice of information. Even that will not gaurentee it will be read thourghly.
During the planning for week of planning for Frame 3 my father was stricken with heart problems and was admitted into CCU. This of course ment Email did get backed up, but my staff tried to step up as best as possible.
What I am try to state here is my staff and myself really put alot of effort in to getting pilots involved and informed. Its unfortunate it still didnt work out. I do sympithize with you. not being give the needed info is frustrating. We did use Email and BBS both.
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Tilt in regard to the question posted a few things come to mind
1) Pilot need to start to realise that the listed time of the Scenario is when we take-off. too many realise things always get delayed so their is no reason to get there early.
I feel posting Take-off time (frame start) when planning a scenario is a mistake. Start time should be listed as the time pilots need to arrive by. To many people show last moment and this means shifting walkons and squads just before start.
2) I think at 30 mins before frame start, Should be the cut off. after that Walkons then get peoples slots. If you cant be there by then you lose your slot.
3) At 15mins before frame Start should be walkon cut off. Doors Closed. Thats it... This gives 15 mins to sort out last moment squads.
4) If this was posted and emphasised in the rules and was hard line, people would be there. I think listing Frame Start as the scenario time just confuses people.
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Originally posted by AndyH
If you want to see an example of how a good FL communicates the information to his squad, check this link.
http://stvuk.brinkster.net/Midway___2002/index.asp
Dstar had to take over from me as a GL (Yorktown attack officer) and VB3 flight leader with less than 2 weeks notice.
He updated the website each week with the latest frame orders and communications information, the URL was only known to registered squad members.
The information on the website is simply a collation of the necessary information communicated by the command staff, a summary was also emailed to each squad member before each frame.
Regards,
AndyH
ABSOLUTELY PERFECT !!!
A mistake (well one of many) that i made was depending on GL's and FL's to flow info down to thier pilots...
One of the things I would do different from what I did in Midway would be to figure out how to e-mail every pilot of the USN with info (less Top Secret final plans)... Eagle and I both were trying to figure out how to get an email list without having to type in each individual address... Does anyone have a handle on how this can be done using Outlook Express ?
BOOT
USN XO (retired)
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What I did was put the Web pages for both sides that had ALL the email address in them into EXCEL.
I then just copied and pasted them into the BCC Section of my CM emails to all pilots.
I SUGGESTED / STRESSED in ALL EMAILS TO ALL Pilots to be there 1 HOUR EARLY. I guess most ignored it.
Regardless how good your GL's are I as CO tend to send that 1 or 2 emails a week to ALL Pilots reminding them about the next frame - to let me and thier GL know if they can not make it and what the plans were.
If a Pilot does not take the time to READ the FORUMS or respond to emails there is very little we can do about it until after the frame or scenario.
It would be nice to track the ATTENDENCE of all pilots so that in future scenario a CO or GL can see and check with those that have a tendency to be no shows.
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Thanks Mike...
Doh!!! It never entered my mind to do it in a simple cut and paste to the cc column... I was trying to figure out how to import the list into Outlook Express to create a group...
Oh well live and learn...
Thanks again
BOOT
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Why try and do some fancy e-mail thing just post orders for eatch squad on there respective BBS!!
That worked fantastic for "Hostile Shores"
With the later scenarios Big Week,Scicily and Midway that system has not been used and the orders have not come throu to many pilots
It is alot more fun to be able to see what the other squads are going to do, as I can get the "hole picthure" for our plans.
If the all members in squad new orders "planes,routes start field" and so on then every member in squad could help out in getting walkons briefed to speed up things at start of frame.
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One problem with the BB system is NOT ALL The pilots use it.
Out of 350-400 pilots I bet 1/3rd did not belong to the AH BB Forums before the Scenario started. Of those about 1/2 figured out how to register and access thier sides forums.
To me as a CO all that I can do is post the plans ( I think the IJN Did this ) in the Foums and EMAIL All the pilots. If a pilot does not read his email ( Or never gave us a valid one to use ) or register for the forums there is not much more we can do.
Personally I vote for BOTH METHODs to make sure all the bases are covered.
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Originally posted by Rompa
Why try and do some fancy e-mail thing just post orders for eatch squad on there respective BBS!!
That might have worked then, but the boards have changed since.... we can't even see all the squad forums, never mind post to them! :) Also, not every squad has a forum.... plus the fact there may be members of the squad playing on opposing sides, so sending orders for all to see would not be a good idea.
I think one of the best scenarios for being able to contact everyone was Bigweek.... apart from being able to see instantly where you were placed - and being able to see who you would be with.... as it had email links for anyone to post to entire groups. I do think being able to contact other participants easily is an important contributor to the smooth-running of a scenario. :)
Actually, for me at least, Bigweek was one of the best as far as group communication went - but then I did have Jordi as a Flight Leader! :D
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Oh didnt mean to post it in the regulary squads BBS, just in Allied or Axis scenario forum ;)
And to make 1 post for every participating squad (in the scenario)with maps and orders. then that squad could debate there orders in that thread,
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Originally posted by Rompa
Oh didnt mean to post it in the regulary squads BBS, just in Allied or Axis scenario forum ;)
Ah, sorry, I misunderstood you then. :)And to make 1 post for every participating squad (in the scenario)with maps and orders. then that squad could debate there orders in that thread,
Well, that's more or less how they were posted in the IJN forum, although not quite separate posts for each group. The problem is, very few people actually read the forums, so they would need to be emailed either instead or as well. Personally, I think both is the best idea for best coverage.
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As Flossy said, a significant percentage of participants do not access the boards. Jordi's suggestion of using both boards (generally the folks that use the boards are the most active participants in these events) and well as email for information dissemination is very good and merits further consideration.
I hope that some of the folks above did not think I was directly criticizing them in any way. I did not intend to state that everyone had the same information underload that I did, just that most did. For those of you that spend the time and effort keeping your squad members 'in the loop' and informed, THANK YOU! You are the solution.
If any...and I mean ANY of you send me 100's of emails for one scenario, I will block your domain, your kids' domain, your dog's domain, and your gold fish's domain. I sort of think that many is too many...information overload, hehe. My spam filters will prolly block it all anyway. As a GL and CO in AW, I sometimes received complaints from my squaddies that they were receiving too much email (lots of it was forwarded to group lists) and multiple copies of it. You need to keep things short, sweet, and to the point. I think most folks will appreciate that.
Thank you all for reading and thinking
Ed561
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Originally posted by Flossy
Actually, for me at least, Bigweek was one of the best as far as group communication went - but then I did have Jordi as a Flight Leader! :D
Helen,
Bigweek was the worst for me as far as communitcation. But then Jordi wasnt my flight leader.
Our bomber group showed up on Frame Day without any orders We just winged it and followed someone elses group.
Belive I kept seeking the Infromation, but it just wasnt distributed.
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I dont personaly feel anyone is bashing here :)
I understand the frustration of being without information.
I state again, The IJN did BOTH email and Post. If the GLs didnt get it, or had it spam filtered out or whatever that was beyond commands ability to effect. BUT posting them always allowed anyone free access to them.
I know who the FLs the did an extra good job of getting out information and keeping there troops involved. Those peoples names were forwarded to the Next COs for Niemen :)
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cut and paste to the cc column...
As Jordi said, it is best to use the BCC field rather than the To or CC fields. Some peole get a little shirty if you give out their email address to hundreds of people who they do not know.
I use MS Access, which I can then export to MS Outlook or excel. I put each pilot into their squad so sending an email to an entire squad is easy. I can also filter by role, making it easy to send an email to all FLs, or all GLs etc. MS Access can also generate a web page roster.
If your not an expert in databases you can use Excel which is much more user friendly, but be careful when sorting columns.
You could also use the skills of your staff, I bet there are a few bods in the comunity that can process a registration list into excel work sheets, containing lists of pilots by side, role, squad etc.
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I think Good GL's /SL's make the difference between winning and losing and the diference between fun and no fun..............that must be a given.............
Its impottant that GL/SL's actually understand their responsibilities............. .......the most important being one of communication.............the y are not just the "boss on the day"...
http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/niemen/chain.html
also re start times..............
http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/niemen/dt.html
I hear Grimms suggestion re announcing times to be 30 mins earlier than the actuality..............my experience is that sooner or later folk start "using" the 30 mins by turning up late but expecting to have a 30 min window (in this case) to get into the frame.