Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: eddiek on July 22, 2000, 08:50:00 AM
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I know a lot of you are gonna flame me on this one, but I just wanted to get this off my chest and maybe put an idea forth that might resolve the issue.
It seems to me that lately a lot more pilots are choosing to run to their ack if they do not have a clear advantage over their opponent. While often referred to as "choosing discretion over valor", and I can see no harm in it when a pilot is facing multiple bogies. But, IMHO, it takes away from the game when a pilot is one on one with a single bogey and he runs to the ack instead of trying to work his way out of the situation. I have seen Torque and Citabria and others turn and fight and work their way back into the fight, and that is one thing I admire about those pilots. They never give up the fight, and choose the courageous route rather than let the acks take care of them. This sim is supposed to be about ACM, and while some may consider running from the enemy to be prudent behavior, it has it's time and place. Extending from a disadvantageous situation is one thing, and is a wise maneuver if that is what is needed to save your skin. But hiding in the ack is, IMHO, cowardice plain and simple.
My proposed solution is this: Take away the credit for kill when your pursuer gets killed by the acks. Give the credit to the AA, not the pilot. Giving credit to the fleeing pilot when he basically gave up on the fight only rewards such tactics.
I know what most of you will say: "eddiek, no one forces you to chase them down into the ack."
That is true. I am admittedly a very aggressive pilot, many times to my misfortune. But it is totally disheartening to work a fight, play all your cards in such a way that you finally get the upper hand, and then the con runs to his ack, and then the ack gets you and the other guy gets credit for a kill in a fight he actually lost.
This is the BEST sim on the market, IMO, and I plan on being here a long time.
I guess I just wanted to vent my feelings here, and get this off my chest. I know there is going to be opposing views, and I will likely get flamed, but hey, friction leads to progress, and maybe something good will come of this.
Now I just need HTC to put my P-47M in the arena, and with it's 4400 ft/min climb rate and 487 knot top speed, I will be totally happy.
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I am thinking on changing my online name to Ackhug!!
The best part is when an opponent follows you into ack, they get shot down, and you get the kill! That is the best!
I run to ack even when I have an advantage! Because my ACM stinks! Just one of the perks of the game.
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Like you said, one of the perks of the game! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
As I am not one to run from a fight (might try to extend a bit and come back and try again), I can honestly say that I have rarely run to the ack to save my skin in 6 tours of duty. Foolish? Maybe. But my kill tally went up each tour as I learned how to turn the tables on my opponent(s). Not so this TOD.....seems to be more of the ack hugging than ever these days. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Thanks for the input, Swager. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I have no problem in this area. Ask anyone,i will chase anyone into ack and usually get the kill. Also get my rad hit but i think its worth it. Others dont like to follow into ack.
Dog out..
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They can't stay in the ack forever! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) So climb above, horde some E and when they make a mistake by getting away from "mutha" ack oo much dive on thier butts and nail em. Course I like nothing more than zipping thru the ack at high speed and busting them too. More times than not the ack doesn't get me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-Westy
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Heheh Eddiek you are aggressive alright, last night you tried multiple head-on's with me and my wingman in your P-47, we got you but it was a hell of a fight and both of us were pinged badly <salute>
BigJim
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LOL so ack hugging is dweebish and making constant HO's is not? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
The ack bubble is not that big, I usually climb and wait for them to start drifting to the fringes of the ack cover then dive in and give them a blast.
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eddiek next time I see you on I'll show you how to clear a field of ack with a fighter by straffing without taking any damage (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
its also possible to dive right through "the lane" down the middle of a field and nail a cowardly landing ack hugger even w all acks up (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I think the most fun I had doing this was with an a6m5 playing "clownfish in the anenome" so i straffed all his acks then killed him (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Kill should not be credited to those who hide in acks, that is what I agree with.
From the other hand telling that one way of playing is "right" and other is "wrong" is not good. Some people play this game as an arkade, kill as many as they can in shortest time and do not bother about getting home. Other play for survival, and they try to get home after each sorties. Third play for scores, and etc. All ways of playing shall be respected in my opinion.
Fariz
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the best feeling in the game is killing an ack hugger that decides to turn around and fight
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Anytime, you want to teach me ANYTHING Citabria, I am ready! <S>! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And Fariz, I agree with you......to each his own, fly the way you want. But I disagree with the credit being given for what amounts to tucking your tail between your legs and running. But! This is only MY opinion, nothing more. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
And revvin, for what it's worth, I had NO room for manuevers in the engagement BigJim is referring to.........there were 4 of them and 1 of me.......there IS a time and place to HO! Last resort before dying! Otherwise, I try to manuever to saddle up on their 6.......but with 4 of them, who do I saddle up on? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by eddiek (edited 07-22-2000).]
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I know this post was regaurding co-alt 1 v. 1 ack hugging, but;
I have been accused of ack hugging in situations where I have faced 3, 4, and even 5 high cons VS. myself. When most of the cons are in faster ships, what is one to do? You cannot expect 1 low alt/energy opponent to take on multiple high cons, or try to escape with everyone watching just him. Not everyone wants to be vulch bait. Plane type also has a lot to do with it, a slower plane has few options.
For me, ack hugging in this situation is acceptable.
For some, their main goal may be survival at any cost. I can respect this because it is the one truly realistic choice that we all would make in a real life situation. I have many freinds that enjoy the survival at any cost approach. Heck, I think it would be fun to spend one tour in the "Never Die / Survival at any Cost" mode".
For others, they have to go to work in 15 minutes and all that they care about is mixing it up before they log off, regaurdless of the outcome. That's perfectly cool too. It's just a game, and we are all here to have fun. In fact, as soon as the next tour, I may turn into "Suicide-Jabo, Head-On-Anything, Enter-Any-Fight-No-Matter-what-the-Odds-Eskimo"
My point is; don't let your panties get all bunched-up because someone else has a different attitude about what this game is all about. To each thier own. Decide to engage, or not, and then let it go.
eskimo
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Originally posted by Citabria:
eddiek next time I see you on I'll show you how to clear a field of ack with a fighter by straffing without taking any damage (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
its also possible to dive right through "the lane" down the middle of a field and nail a cowardly landing ack hugger even w all acks up (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I think the most fun I had doing this was with an a6m5 playing "clownfish in the anenome" so i straffed all his acks then killed him (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
It can also be fun to hug the ack against long odds and duck out for a quick kill.
But Cit and Wardog are right..there are some guys that it is just not safe to ack hug from...
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Here's what I suggest Eddie, next time you think a con is going to run to ack rather than try to fight you at a disadvantage, why dont you get real low, get real slow and let him have the advantage? Maybe he wont run for the ack then.
I dont mind if someone runs for the ack from me when I am in a superior E position, I accept that he has made a prudent decision.
I dont expect him to try and fight me and just be an easy target. In any fight, you use whatever tools are available to win or at least survive. That is what an ack hugger does. And it's smart flying.
Granted, there are some really good sticks out there that can enter a fight with less E and quickly turn it around, but those are few and far between.
The best in the game play it by using their heads. It may not seem all macho, but it is smarter. Dont expect anyone to let themselves be killed, or belittle them if they dont.
Dago
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I've run before, and I have on occassion used ack for safety (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif), does that make me an ack-hugger?? ... but wait, what is wrong with this thread?
People pay for this game ... so they are entitled to play it any damn way they want!
Everyone plays to their own rules and to satisfy various and very individual wants/needs. Some of these methods we might agree with, and some we might find questionable ...
If anyone would like to pay for the upkeep of my AH account, I'll play a specific way, your way, once a week (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif).
It's up to ourselves, what we choose to react to and what to ignore, that will make the game for you ... it really is a waste of time belly-aching about how other people should fly, from any point of view (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
For the record ... I fly as 'realistically' as I know how (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
Cheers
Yosus
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“One day, flight simulation will be so realistic, that you’ll need to wear brown corduroy … “
Phoenix Squadron.
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Agree completely Eddiek! I remember you from WB ACA.You were 1 of the minority that was always game for an engagement.I'll stand by you on this and accept the flamethrowers,because I know you to be an aggressive warrior .I also agree that engaging from a disadvantage is the BEST way to learn ACM.Others wont admit it, but many of them fly with thier fragile egos making the decisions for them.They claim to be flying 'smart',but to the likes of you and I,smart = cowardice ,because no-one really dies here!The only reason NOT to engage at a disadvantage is that its bad for the SCORE!You and I and many other vets of combat-sims have seen enough to understand that score tells nothing of a pilots ability.I for 1 would rather show a LOWER score in the pursuit of GROWING in this most fascinating art of airial combat. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Salute!
By-Tor
'Black Dactyl'
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Im with Wardog on this one. Except for the few "large" bases, if you get your speed above 350-400 and do gentle, slight turns while in a dive, the ack wont kill you , and you can zip in , kill , and zoom-climb out noprob=) Dogftr and I [mainly Dogftr (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) ] CLEARED a medium base one night. We had 10k commin in, maintained E, and , after watching his example, I managed to repeatedly dodge in and outta the ack , kill ackhuggingSPITS one after the other, till they finally gave up (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Its gotta be one of the biggest on-line rushes Ive found, dodging ack, killing the ack huggers=)
AKelfy (Doug)
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... 'tis funny hearing how freely the words 'bravery', 'cowardice' and 'warrior' get bandied around when we are referencing actions in a game where no one dies, no one gets hurt, hollywood warriors ... ROFLMAO!
I do beg you pardon's 'warriors' ... hehe ...
but your pardon shouldn't be necessary, because 'warriors' don't have 'fragile ego's' ... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
Hehe ... this has me wondering about parallels to real life, the 'warriors' with the most bravado turn into chicken-shit when the doo-doo hits the fan ... with depressing regularity.
I do share something in common with the 'warriors' in this game ... Aces High is without a doubt, the most immersive, addictive and just plain fun simulation on the market today ... and you know what makes it so, apart from the spiffy program design?
It's us of course ... all of us, warriors and dweebs ... humans, with all our foibles and our wonderfully warped perceptions of life, the universe and everything in it!
<SALUTE!!>
Cheers
Yosus
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“One day, flight simulation will be so realistic, that you’ll need to wear brown corduroy … “
Phoenix Squadron.
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The ACk is modelled really well now, a 400kt+ dive with a few jinks here and there they only ping ya as it should be.
So, dive in, blow the guy in half, speed away.
I LOVE ack huggers, they are always lower, slower, and think they are protected. Plus they ran so it's even more enjoying.
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WOW! Talk about a variety of opinions! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ok, so we have about a 50/50 split on this subject......some hate the ack huggers, some say it is the thing to do.
I have to admire those who dive into the ack and go for the kill anyway (Citabria, I AM gonna take ya up on that offer! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)), and I have decided that killing the ack huggers is my next skill to learn, even though the learning curve will likely be steep.
You are absolutely right, Yosus, each pilot has the right to fly the game any damn way he wants. And I apologize to anyone that feels that I personally slammed them......twas not my intent.
But the learning curve is steep in all areas of the sim, and what are the guys gonna do when there is no ack to run to? DIE of course!
And when I get through working with Citabria, even the ack ain't gonna help ya! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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I flew with Citabria yesterday, and got 4 kills in that low-ammo YAK while diving in ack to get the enemy with him. Never got pinged once and only had to RTB because I completely ran out of ammo.
Two things....I will hug the ack to defend a base..or to gain seperation to turn back into the fight. I will hug the ack if outnumbered and at lower alt...again to gain seperation. What I find funny is the guys who call you an ack hugger, but do so while sitting on their alt and e perch. Loose the alt ...get slow and watch me come back at ya!
As a matter of fact, that's what I try to do...get them low and turning so the field gets leveled. And I will use any tool at my disposal...including ack. Just as that higher con will us alt and e to his advantage.
Also, I rarely look at my score, so ack is not a score thing for me....rather somedays I like to fly as if I had to make it back....part of the immersion thing I guess.
I really don't have a problem with the way anyone plays in the MA...it is afterall the MA so all kinds of things will happen....Just play the hand dealt and make the best of it. I also chase planes into the ack more times than is healthy...lol.
Cobra
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Originally posted by Yosus:
... 'tis funny hearing how freely the words 'bravery', 'cowardice' and 'warrior' get bandied around when we are referencing actions in a game where no one dies, no one gets hurt, hollywood warriors ... ROFLMAO!
My point exactly Yosus.Am trying to say that if a pilot fighting from a disadvantage manages to stay alive and work the fight to an 'even' playing field,shouldnt he be afforded the opportunity to see this contest thru to a final conclusion? Theres still the second half of the game left at this point,at least to the pilot that entered the contest at the disadvantage. Now the situation calls for the original attacker to learn the other side of the equation.Yes, he will likely 'die' a virtual death.But the experience gained is what ACM knowledge is all about!
Imagine the frustration of the pilot fighting off multiple passes from the perch only to have the attacker 'bug-out'when things equalize.Each to his own yes agreed-but see how stale the 'game' becomes if we all only remain engaged while holding all the cards? Thats what I meant by 'warrior',see the fight thru to its conclusion and try to learn from the experience.If your bested-get another plane(life).As you state,no-one really dies.Give the other guy a 'well flown' and look to not blow the adv.next time around.
Just my opinion,wasnt trying to offend (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
By-Tor
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Why is it that pilots are expected to stay and die? If you accept a death sentence when you lose an advantage instead of trying to survive then your logic is just flawed.
You guys that want the other guy to hold still for you to kill them amaze me. And flying into ack to chase a guy down is even worse. If you know you are gonna get shot up, just don't go there.
Anyone that can use their plane's speed to get away - even if it is into aaa - is doing better than the guy that lets them. All you are complaining about is not being good enough to disable or kill them in the first place.
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Originally posted by Renfield:
You guys that want the other guy to hold still for you to kill them amaze me.
All you are complaining about is not being good enough to disable or kill them in the first place.
The original premise was that of being attacked from a superior position.My point is that if the advantaged attacker cant get the kill before equal terms are established,its only sporting to carry on the fight from here rather than bug-out.The original attacker STILL has some cards to play.Ex: a climbing adv. over the better turning defender.Stay and pull from your aquired 'tricks in the bag'.If you die,perhaps in the process,you learned another 'trick'. I seem to be flying from a different mindset than some of you-expectedly so! Fly as you please. Was just sharing Eddiek's frustration of not getting to fight to a final conclusion.
Cheers,
By-Tor
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I found an interesting strategic use for ack-hugging last week, when the Rooks were based in the south. A35 fell to an nme attack and they were using it as a base to attack V61, the capture of which allows tank attack on the nearby city and HQ.
So I stationed myself near the factory SW of A35 on the route from that base to V61, and attacked jabos heading for V61. I was able to be very disruptive and impeded attacks from A35 for quite a while. Since I was often alone versus many, I resorted to using the air over our factory as a place to regain alt. The smarter or more patient nme just flew around the factory area, but there weren't enough of them to take V61, apparently. Plenty of others went after me.
I agree that ack kills should not be awarded to pilots. All but one of my kills were legitimate in this situation, with just one P47 flying into an 88 flak burst. I was surprised and a bit ashamed to get a kill credit for him.
The beauty of AH is in the depth of the game. I prefer to play it with strategic goals in mind, either in attack or defence. Sometimes I just like to dogfight (which I stink at).
I never get mad at other player's tactics. We all pay to play, and no-one owes me a free kill. I don't owe anyone a free kill either (even if I give them up often enough). All's fair. The highest scoring RL pilots were very judicious about when to engage and when not to. That's how they lived long enough to run up huge scores.
It would be interesting to see how 'brave' super aggressive players would be if we all were allowed, say, 1 life per day in the MA.
Now that would radically change some types of behaviour.
Fluf
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ByTor, one of us misunderstands the issue here. "Running for the ack" is almost always done by the guy who started with the disadvantage, not by someone who lost it.
If ack is handy to run to, the player no doubt probably just came up that field recently and hasnt gained the altitude that someone who flew from a differant field has.
And no, just because someone has turned a fight around, going from a disadvantage to an equal or advantageous position does not mean the other player should just sit there and die because the other player did well. Get real.
Renfield, you hit the nail right on the head.
Dago
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I have turned a fight around only to have the enemy pilot go into ack. My thought were, "Damn, one that got away."
I don't get upset, I don't ask why. I don't moan and groan. It was the best option open for the enemy pilot to escape and survive.
Also, for a pilot to climb up out of his friendly ack to engage multiple cons is asking for trouble. I have enough trouble engaging pilots in this sim without purposely putting myself at a disadvantage.
I've been known to run to ack when out of ammo and fuel. I will use the ack to assist me in survival. If that is being a coward, then so be it. I have no ego to bruise when flying on-line sims.
If climbing out of the ack with higher cons present gives you the label that you are not a coward, then fine. I'll save that for the brave ones! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I have been shot down while being in my own ack. If I would of climbed out of it I would of been shot down anyways. At least let the enemy pilot get shot at while doing it!
I play this game for my definition of fun, not to boost my ego, or anyone else's.
And that is all I have to say about that.
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Having obviously offended some of you with my remarks,in particular Swager whom I have flown against,I offer an apology and an explanation.Last night I spent 2 hrs or so in an H2H arena.Anyone who has flown in these FFA 'call "in"' combats will attest that I will engage the closest bandit be he higher or lower than I.Well, after repeatedly seeing higher cons(sometimes in SAME plane) break off contact because the fight had almost reached co-E,I logged off in anger and proceeded directly to AH bb and replied heatedly to EddieK's post of the same situation.
Should have known better than to post in anger-still learning life (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
To all I've offended,truely sorry.For me to expect anyone else to fly by my likes is indeed ridiculous.
By-Tor
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This is one of the issues that smacked me in the face when I first started playing AH. After I chased a spit that was higher than me in a spit myself from 4 to 24 where he finally ran out of gas.
Most people it seems would rather have an easy kill than a good fight . This may attribute for the prevalence of such poor acm displayed when they are forced to fight, ie. the ubiquituos extend, reverse, shoot headon and repeat manuever . Many of the people who fly in this manner have been playing AH longer than my newbie self . But they never really fight so they never learn .
I suck at AH, many of you can attest to this, and even I am very frustrated by this. So any info on how to run down and kill ack runners should be posted, re-posted and posted again .
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No offence taken By-Tor, not by me anyways (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)!!
Cheers
Yosus
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“One day, flight simulation will be so realistic, that you’ll need to wear brown corduroy … “
Phoenix Squadron.
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By-Tor! No worries! I wasn't offended! Just that we all have different outlooks of the game (whoops, Sim). I usually don't get offended. I get offended at myself for my flying sometimes, but that's it.
I consider myself the easist guy I know to get along with, on-line and in real life. Don't laugh, I'm not kidding! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I am what Hristo would call an opprotunist. I mainly get my kills when someone is involved with someone else. I use my plane to it's abilities to get position for a kill. 1v1, I am terrible! So I don't try to kid myself that I can duke it out with the best of them. I have met enemy pilots 1v1 and sometimes I win, but not very often. I have really good SA, but my ACM stinks. I know this, so I adjust accordingly. BTW, My squadmates know this too. So they always watch over me! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
My joy in this sim is flying with my squadmates and having fun talking on RW and protecting each other. I have no deep, dark objective to become the best. I am meerly a humble sim pilot just having fun.
So By-Tor, I took no offense! Cool! I still love ya man!!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
P.S. What Cobra wrote, for I could not write it better. His and my thinking of ack hugging are on the same level. Nicely put, Cobra!!!
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Swager
GeschwaderKommodore I/JG2~Richthofen~[/i]
"Damn.....I can't believe I missed that shot!!!"
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/swager.jpg)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/JG2inquirer.html)
[This message has been edited by Swager (edited 07-23-2000).]