Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Toad on November 24, 2002, 11:32:44 AM
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House of Commons - Homicide Statistics '97 (http://www.parliament.uk/commons/lib/research/rp99/rp99-056.pdf)
Notable quotes:
Summary of main points
Homicide in England and Wales includes the offences of murder, manslaughter and infanticide. In 1997, 738 deaths were initially recorded as homicide. This was a 9% rise from 1996, exceeded this century only by 753 in 1995. Around 15% of homicides as recorded by the police are generally reclassified as other offences following police and court action.......
In 1997 around 8% of homicides involved firearms and almost one third a sharp weapon[/u]. Firearm use in homicide has fallen over the past few years, in common with firearm use in other offences......
While the most common method of killing in 1997 was with a sharp instrument (just under a third of offences)[/u], nine per cent of the 650 homicide victims currently recorded for England and Wales in 1997 were shot.
Now it seems a bit funny to me that there's no full tilt drive on to register/license/ban/confiscate sharp weapons in England and Wales. After all, as Brother Beetle has been quick to repetitively state even one life lost is enough to justify any sort action to stop the slaughter.
9% of homicides in England and Wales by firearm and something just under 33% of homicides by sharp instruments? Where is the concern? Where is the empathy? Where is the outrage? Can they just ignore this carnage?
Who knows WHO is carrying a sharp instrument out there? Why, your very next door neighbor could have a razor!
Clearly, the threat of homicide death from sharp instruments is something on the order of THREE TIMES as great as that from firearms. This from official sources.
And it gets WORSE!
Scottish homicide rate soars (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/1057562.stm)
The number of killings in Scotland has soared by almost a quarter, according to new figures (2000)....
The statistics showed an upsurge in homicides caused by knives or other sharp instruments - and an equal increase in the number of men dying....
It also emerged that more than half the deaths were due to knives or sharp instruments, with the figure rising from 44 to 66.
How can they continue to ignore the obvious? Sharp instruments are a FAR, FAR greater threat to the public than firearms. SOMETHING MUST be done!
Of course, we must show the comparison to the US.
(http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/weapons.gif)
US death rate (or % of homicides) by knives is far, far below that of England, Wales or Scotland.
Won't you join the "Ban the Butter Knife" Movement? Please send your E-Mails of support to the Home Office.
Afterall, it's not the Criminal........ it's the inanimate object!
Thank you!
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:cool:
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besides.... knives give me the creeps.
lazs
"Homicide in England and Wales includes the offences of murder, manslaughter and infanticide. In 1997, 738 deaths were initially recorded as homicide. This was a 9% rise from 1996, exceeded this century only by 753 in 1995. Around 15% of homicides as recorded by the police are generally reclassified as other offences following police and court action.......
In 1997 around 8% of homicides involved firearms and almost one third a sharp weapon. Firearm use in homicide has fallen over the past few years, in common with firearm use in other offences......
While the most common method of killing in 1997 was with a sharp instrument (just under a third of offences), nine per cent of the 650 homicide victims currently recorded for England and Wales in 1997 were shot."
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hmm we may have some sharp instruments over here,
indeed, it seems they have the monopoly on blunt tools on the other side of the pond.
after reading toads post, i could immediately see how right he was and that we must ban all sharp things now.The next day was a disaster.
08:30
Slice bread with my Sig P225. It's a bit messy, but i ended up with some serviceable results, and we finally got the ventilation we need for our very humid kitchen
10:00
Went to work as usual, but I was sent home at lunchtime for blasting customers with birdshot and fish entrails. I guess the Spas15 isn't really designed for gutting haddock.
13:00
I tried to spread nutella onto my crumpets with derringer but it ended up all over my hands, and now the pistol is going to have to go in the dishwasher.
Cored an apple with my Stechkin, and scraped the pulp of the ceiling (with My Sig) for a really nice sandwich. ( I caved and cut the bread with a knife )
14:30
Went out to the garden and pruned my roses with my GE minigun. Deadheading has never been so much fun, but unfortunately my neighbours are gonna press charges for massacring their chickens.
17:50
Parcel arrived at dinnertime, heavily taped up. Time for the trusty miniUzi. I wonder what was in it, there sure were a lot of feathers.
22:00
I manage to blow my foot off cutting my toenails. Probably should have used a .22 not .44
That's what I like about guns, they have so many uses, like shooting holes in people, cutting bread, slicing suasage, cutting cake, keyhole surgery, woodcarving, and of course fencing.
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private pleasure aviation is pretty useless too... as is swimming and hiking... any nut could crash a private plane into a school and kill dozens maybe hundreds of children... why not be proactive and stop it while you can? I mean... do it for the children.. swimming and hiking.... far more killed than even blunt instruments and so..... needlessly... get your nannies at the home office" (just writing home office cracks me up for some reason) to ban hiking and swimming and private aviation... do it for the children.
Or... wait... maybe we could just make murder against the law?
lazs
"Homicide in England and Wales includes the offences of murder, manslaughter and infanticide. In 1997, 738 deaths were initially recorded as homicide. This was a 9% rise from 1996, exceeded this century only by 753 in 1995. Around 15% of homicides as recorded by the police are generally reclassified as other offences following police and court action.......
In 1997 around 8% of homicides involved firearms and almost one third a sharp weapon. Firearm use in homicide has fallen over the past few years, in common with firearm use in other offences......
While the most common method of killing in 1997 was with a sharp instrument (just under a third of offences), nine per cent of the 650 homicide victims currently recorded for England and Wales in 1997 were shot."
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The undenable fact is that England/Wales/Scotland have far, far more homicides using sharp instruments as the weapon of choice. Something on the order of Three Times as many.
Yet there is no outrage, no attempt to rectify this situation.
Why the discrepancy?
Obviously, far more sharp instrument are mis-used than firearms. Where's the focus on the obvious?
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they should probly pass a law that makes it illegal to kill people by any means and not worry so much about what tool is used.
lazs
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I don't know if there's much to be gained from those stats Toad.
If you want someone dead, but don't have access to a gun (strict gun laws), yer next best option is a knife. Such is the case in England. So it should be no suprise that since knives by far outnumber guns, deaths by knives would surpass that of death by guns.
Or are you trying to imply something else and it's going over my head?
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Nash,
So you're thinking it may be the criminal and not the inanimate object? Me too! What a coincidence!
Actually, my point is that these holier-than-thou types that proudly point to a lower gun homicide level seem to ignore the fact that sharp instruments are their real problem. No expense, no restriction, no reduction in personal freedom is too much to give in the war against evil firearms but sharp instruments? Eh? Who cares? Right? Toodle-pip as they say.
Simply seems like they'd be hard at work rounding up the butter knives if they were truly sincere about this saving lives stuff. But not a peep about "sharp instrument restriction" from them.
A tacit admission that it's not the inanimate object but the MAN behind the deed? As everyone has been saying for so long? That the gun aspect is merely a "feel good" measure?
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No, I'll swallow the bait, hook line and proverbial then
Originally posted by lazs2
private pleasure aviation is pretty useless too... as is swimming and hiking... any nut could crash a private plane into a school and kill dozens maybe hundreds of children... why not be proactive and stop it while you can? I mean... do it for the children.. swimming and hiking.... far more killed than even blunt instruments and so..... needlessly... get your nannies at the home office" (just writing home office cracks me up for some reason) to ban hiking and swimming and private aviation... do it for the children.
Or... wait... maybe we could just make murder against the law?
lazs
Huh?
I was merely pointing out to toad , in a somewhat roundabout and indirect way I admit, the monomodality of the gun, and the complete opposite case with the knife. Both are weapons, true, but the knife has so many other uses that we cannot be without them, as I'm sure you'll concur.
Not really sure what you were getting at with all that ban private aviation and hiking business.
It's almost like you were equating hiking and weapons because they both kill people, but you wouldn't commit that kind of category error.
Oh and Toad:
The undenable fact is that England/Wales/Scotland have far, far more homicides using sharp instruments as the weapon of choice. Something on the order of Three Times as many.
Let me check this - The UK excluding NI has three times as many 'sharp instrument' homicides than the USA?
The way I see it -
Population of UK - approx 60 000 000
No. of homicides with knives (figures quoted above)
England & Wales 33% of 650/year =217
Scotland 50% of 66/year =33
total =250
population /total sharp instrument murders= 240,000:1
Population of USA - 288,567,803
No of homicides with knives (estimated from graph as few as 2000)
total =2000
population/total sharp instrument murders= 144284:1
or to put it another way, all other things being eqaul, the probability of your being murdered with a kinfe in any one year are:
In the UK .00000416
In the USA .00000693
Now that makes UK homicide rate per year per person about 2/3rds of USA n'est ce pas?
Thoughts, comments criticisms?
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It's impossible to ban knives, because they are needed for preparation of food.
A tacit admission that it's not the inanimate object but the MAN behind the deed?
Guns don't kill people, they just make it easier for criminals to kill people.
private pleasure aviation is pretty useless too... as is swimming and hiking... any nut could crash a private plane into a school and kill dozens maybe hundreds of children... why not be proactive and stop it while you can?
And yet very few nuts do, whereas criminals with guns kill thousands every year.
Of course, it could be the fact that you have to have a lot of training and qualify to fly a plane, whereas any nut can buy a gun in the US (providing they haven't been caught yet)
Homicide in England and Wales includes the offences of murder, manslaughter and infanticide. In 1997, 738 deaths were initially recorded as homicide. This was a 9% rise from 1996, exceeded this century only by 753 in 1995. Around 15% of homicides as recorded by the police are generally reclassified as other offences following police and court action.......
Toad, I'm disappointed that you ignored my reply to your previous post, where I got the facts to prove that the website you were quoting was wrong.
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It's impossible to ban knives, because they are needed for preparation of food.
Well, gee, can't a nanny watch over the knife inventory? You know, knife registration and licensing, secure storage, police oversight when the knife is in actual use?
Guns don't kill people, they just make it easier for criminals to kill people.
Apparently the exact same thing can be said about sharp instruments in England/Wales/Scotland.... and about three times as loudly, eh?
Where's the attempt at resolution? Even one life is too much, as Beetle pointed out. Where's the interest in changing things?
Or is it the man behind the deed, not the inanimate object after all?
I haven't revisited that thread; simply been too busy. Will try to recheck it shortly.
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no bounder you miss the point... firearms homicides are comparitively few as deaths go and when they(firearms) are eliminated.... something else takes their place for the murdering crowd... there are far more effective ways to murder people... knives don't make noise for instance. Cars are more sure... just run em over... happens all the time... school yard shootings are nothing compared to the bombings that are going on around the world... suicide or other wise..
And.. if saving lives is the paramount thing... why not ban swimming... the rewards in lives saved would be 50 times greater than even the most stringent gun ban... if there can even be shown, which I doubt, a savings of lives from a gun ban... banning swimming would indeed show a savingings in lives... you can't cut your steak with a swim suit so what good is swimming?
and... far from being useless... In our country... it is a fact that guns STOP crime... crime of all sorts including murder at the rate of between 750,000 to 3,000,000 times a year.. undoubtably a net gain... so... it would apear, using our stats, that england is causing it's murder and crime rate ... endangering it's citizens buy it's effeminate and neurotic fear of an inatimate object... the firearm.. Appearance over substance... the liberal way.
if saving lives and preventing crime is useful... then maybe guns are far more useful than knives. knives are not the best tool for that but they seem to be quite good enough for murderers. no good for preventing crime but excelent for propogating it.
If a nut does crash a private plane into a school yard... if a rash of 2 or three nuts crash planes into school yards.... are you going to go on record as calling for a ban on private aviation?
lazs
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You can run from someone with a knife though. ;)
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Then the folks in England, Wales and Scotland better start running faster, eh?
Because knives are catching them something like three times as often as bullets are.
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You keep your semi-automatic/automatic myriad of modern tools for killing people and we'll keep our up-close-and-personal tools for preparing food and I'm sure we'll all have a nice day.
- Dowding
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So, as long as nobody uses a gun you're OK with the homicide rate?
The Home Office fact that three times as many of your homicides feature "sharp instruments" doesn't bother you?
Obviously, "sharp instruments" are far more of a problem in your country than firearms.
Seems hypocritical not to care.
In fact, it seems like you take the same approach to your "sharp instruments" as we take to our firearms. An approach you castigate us for but accept in yourselves.
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I really don't understand the argument here.
Toad, you are saying you are 3 times more likely to die from a knife than a firearm, that i understand. Everything else i don't.
Seeing as how rare guns are in the UK why wouldn't that be any different?
Why aren't we in an uproar over knives? I don't see people carrying machettes, yes certain knives are illegal too.
I don't understand how you can compare a tool for preparing food (as swoopy said) to a weapon designed to kill such as a gun.
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Toad is being facetious.
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Toad,
Now I'm pro gun, but your arguments here are stupid in the extreme.
The UK has a lower homicide rate with knives, swords, scissors and other sharp impliments than the USA has with knives, swords, scissors and other sharp impliments. The numbers fall out something like this:
1 in 240,000 people in the UK were killed by knives.
1 in 145,000 people in the USA were killed by knives.
Therefore the USA has a higher homicide rate with knives than does the UK.
You are trying to portray it like the UK is dripping in blood from all the homicide victims killed by knives, but this is blantantly false and an obvious intentional misreading of the statistics to get the results you want.
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Toad is being a 'blunt tool' (lol, bounder :D )
On any given day you are 1.6 times more likely to be stabbed and killed in the US than the UK.
On any given day you are lots (can't be arsed to work it out) more likely to be shot in the US than the UK.
Your point was Toad...?
Gatso
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My point was some of you folks seem to accept the far greater homicide rate of "sharp instruments" (in comparison to firearms in the UK) with near total equanimity.
OTOH, you castigate anyone in the US that has any attitude even remotely similar to that with respect to firearms homicides.
Murder is murder, is it not? If you're all so upset about firearms deaths..... to the point that you basically confiscated or severely restricted guns in the UK..... why are you not upset about homicide by "sharp instrument"? Clearly, that is your major problem right now.
Seems pretty hypocritical to me. THAT is the point.
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Or perhaps another way of expressing it.
Assume a fantasy world where the homicide rates in the UK and the US are exactly as they exist in this world right now except that all homicides committed with firearms in both countries were instead committed with "sharp instruments".
That is, the homicide rates are the same except that "sharp instruments" are responsible for all deaths now attributed to firearms.
Would we still be getting lectures from across the Atlantic on registering & banning sharp instruments?
Is it the man or the inanimate object that needs controls?
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We don't like knife murders. We don't like gun murders.
We have lots less gun murders than the US because guns are only availible if you break the law. We have less knife murders than you because.... mmm. I don't know.
Knives are one of the founding tools that the whole of our civilisation is based on. Guns are just a modern method of distant death.
Toad, Everything you have brought up is a non-issue based on what media pundits over here would call 'spin'. It's all in the presentation and has little bearing on fact or real life.
Gatso
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Assume a fantasy world
Such as the one you appear to resident in at the moment? ;)
That is, the homicide rates are the same except that "sharp instruments" are responsible for all deaths now attributed to firearms.
More fantasy spin.
Would we still be getting lectures from across the Atlantic on registering & banning sharp instruments?
Nope, we'd just be winding you up because your murder rate would still be higher than ours even though the instruments of death would be the same.
Gatso
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http://www.shopathometv.com/shopathome/network/community/community.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@0547871723.1038184999@@@@&BV_EngineID=cccjadcgldiefmlcefeceeedffkdfjk.0&n=0&OID=-8362
Enjoy:)
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Knives are one of the founding tools that the whole of our civilisation is based on. Guns are just a modern method of distant death.
Guns are a modern meathod of defence as well, and I'd rather be armed when encountering some nutcase that wants to kill me or break into my house.
What do you guys do, bash the intruder over the head with a lamp ( Like George Harrison's wife had to do) when he wants to kill you? <------ Benny Hill music playing in background as murderer and victim go round and round
What if you are not near a lamp..... what then?
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Originally posted by gatso
We don't like knife murders. We don't like gun murders.
[/b]
But apparently you accept knife murders as inescapable facts of life. To quote Swoopy: "". OTOH, you ban/severely restrict guns. Doesn't seem a bit odd to you?
We have lots less gun murders than the US because guns are only availible if you break the law. We have less knife murders than you because.... mmm. I don't know.
[/b]
How does the fact that murder itself is against the law factor in? Does it perhaps suggest to you that folks that will murder have little or no regard for any law?
Your rate of "sharp instrument" murder is 3X your gun murder yet none of you seem concerned in the least. You don't find that curious?
Is it the means of murder that worries an Englishman or the fact of murder?
Knives are one of the founding tools that the whole of our civilisation is based on. Guns are just a modern method of distant death.
[/b]
So it is the nature of the tool used that matters in murder? Death by a 9 Iron is ok because it's merely a golf tool?
(BTW, I don't agree with your overly simplistic summation on guns. They've been used to preseve life and liberty quite often as well as providing food, one of the basic necessities of life for many societies. Beyond that, "sharp instruments" share much of the same purpose and historical usage as guns. Know of any society that ever used a broadsword primarily for cooking?)
You continue to dodge the issue. Homicide is homicide no matter what tool is used. Clearly, after the gun ban, "sharp instrument" homicide increased, particularly in Scotland. Men made choices. So where is the concern?
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(http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1055000/images/_1057562_knives300.jpg)
And which of these "sharp instruments" pictured in the BBC article on "Scottish Homicide Rate Soars" is typical of a founding tool that our entire civilisation is based upon?
The bayonets, the Bowie knives or kukris?
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Homicide by sharp instruments - tragic. That's why airlines now ban sharp instruments in carry on luggage. Tomato even had a pair of nail scissors confiscated on a RyanAir flight. Mr. Toad, it is late, I am tired. Please ponder on the lives that were lost on 11-09-2001 - because of sharp instrumets. And now I'm going to bed.
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England, where you need a license to watch tv and dance.
"Pubs fined because drinkers also dance
LONDON(AP)
Youre drinking with friends in a pub in London's lively West End when a catchy tune come on the juke-box and you begin swaying to the music. Stop right there- you might be breaking the law.
A British pub chain was fined $7,850 after undercover inspectors caught a few patrons dancing at two of its of its popular bars.
The crime: flounting licensing laws that ban "rhythmic moving".
Under British law, dancing is only allowed in pubs that have public entertainment licenses. But getting the license from local goverments can be expensive and overly bureaucratic process and, consequently, only around 5 percent of pubs ,restaurants and nightclubs allow live dancing and entertainment. "
It would explain why they have less sex though, not everyone has a "Rythmic moving" licence.
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Please ponder on the lives that were lost on 11-09-2001 - because of sharp instrumets. And now I'm going to bed.
Loss of life was due to Arab/Muslim fanatics. If the Flight crew had had guns, 911 could have been prevented. Guns save lives.
How many people did they kill with the knives b.t.w.? I thought the planes caused most of the damage.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Homicide by sharp instruments - tragic.
Oh, indeed. My oh my yes.
But I eagerly await your solution to the "sharp instrument" problem in England/Wales/Scotland.
After all, a person as concerned as yourself over needless/pointless loss of life will undoubtedly have the solution. After all, you've got the solution for our firearms problems over here. "Sharp instruments" causing 3X the homicides that firearms do on your home turf should be a piece of cake for you.
Cya tomorrow.
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Toad, every single person on this board owns several knives, or at least live in a house that has several knives in it.
A great many people don't own guns, and don't live in a house with guns.
In other words, we can get along without guns, we can't get along without knives.
There have been attempts to ban certain types of knives, swords etc, and many campaigns by the press against them. They have foundered due to the fact it's very hard to classify what is a "normal" knife and what isn't. A Kukri might look impressive, but a long kitchen knife it's likely to be more deadly, if only for the fact it's probably made with better steel, and has a much better edge.
If knives were as effective a tool for killing people, then more murders in the US would be carried out with knives than guns, right? After all, there's no background check for knives, and they are a damn sight cheaper too.
Yet 5 times as many people are murdered with guns than knives in the US.
Guns are a modern meathod of defence as well, and I'd rather be armed when encountering some nutcase that wants to kill me or break into my house.
The vast majority of people who break in to houses are doing it to steal, not to kill. Of course, if they have a gun, and they think you have a gun, then they find themselves in the position of shoot or be shot. I doubt the fact that you are innocent, and they the criminal, matters much to them.
I'd much rather be unarmed in an unarmed society than armed in an armed society. After all, US policemen are all armed, and well trained as well. 50 of them get murdered on duty every year. British policemen are invariably unarmed, and approx 1 gets murdered every 5 years.
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In other words, we can get along without guns, we can't get along without knives.
Ah, OK. It's a personal opinion thing then? Murder by knife is inescapable because "we can't get along without knives".
I guess the same would apply loss of life due to drunk driving then, since we can't get along without alcoholic beverages. And, well, the automobile itself then.
So as long as a society can determine what's non-essential it can be banned in pursuit of lowering homicide. However, if something is essential, the deaths are "acceptable losses" I guess.
Not trying to put words in your mouth. Just trying to understand the logic that can look the other way when "sharp instruments" are involved.
I guess any argument that some folks would find firearms a necessary tool in the enjoyment of their life, liberty and pursuit of happiness would be roundly denounced while the humble knife, broadsword, battle axe, spear, kukri, chef's knife, pocket knife or scalpel can be held up as a vital tool of civilisation and honorable for all to own and enjoy?
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How does the fact that murder itself is against the law factor in? Does it perhaps suggest to you that folks that will murder have little or no regard for any law?
In all likelyhood yes. If the murder is premeditated then there will always be a method for the potential murderer. Restricting options however reduces on the spot, heat of the moment murders by giving both parties time to think. Such as:
You get in an argument outside a bar. The other guy is really pissing you off, you pull a gun and shoot the bastard.
ditto but you pull a knife and stab the person to death.
Well. 90% of guns are illegal over here. It's illegal to carry a knife. Unless you are already breaking the law and therefore could be classed as a criminal by carrying a knife what are you going to do? You could try to beat the other bloke to death but thats a lot harder.
I'm not saying it doesn't happen every now and again. I'm saying it happens a lot LESS when you restrict options. Ordinary law abiding people very rarely get killed because there are very few scenarios in which they could face an immediately dangerous weapon.
So it is the nature of the tool used that matters in murder?
Take away all the guns and knives and I have no doubt that the 9 iron or some other object would become the primary murder weapon of choice. A 9 iron could still be classed as an offensive weapon and I very much doubt whether our police would allow a concealed one to be carried (even if that was possible).
The nature of the tool is not the primary motivation for killing someone. But! certain tools can lead to situations that end in murders while others will not. By removing the opportunity you reduce the rate at which it occurs.
They've (guns) been used to preseve life
Name a single example.
I don't need a gun to provide me with food or protect my liberty. However, as so graphically illustrated earlier in this thread I would struggle to cut up my food with anything other than a knife.
Late here now. Had a drink or two before writing this so I may take it all back tomorow. :D
Gatso
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Last last last post.
I think we can get along without drink driving just fine TY.
As to the 'acceptable losses' thing. Do you want to ban all legal drugs too? Pretty much all of them can cause death if you take to many of them.
It's even possible to OD on water FFS.
90% of the overtly offensive weapons are already either heavily regulated or illegal over here already. The sharps that are used are either illegal in there very nature or illegal in the sence that they can't be carried legally.
Gatso
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Originally posted by gatso
Well. 90% of guns are illegal over here. It's illegal to carry a knife. Unless you are already breaking the law and therefore could be classed as a criminal by carrying a knife what are you going to do?
[/B]
90% of the guns are illegal. It's illegal to carry a knife. Your "sharp instrument" homicide rate is ~3X your firearm homicide rate. Yet there is apparently no concern, no movement to do to knives what you did to guns.
The obvious point in your statement is that either is already illegal. Harkening back to an older thread, it's been shown that our firearm homicide rate came down without drastic confiscation measures.
Again, it isn't the tool. It's the man.
Originally posted by gatso
I'm not saying it doesn't happen every now and again. I'm saying it happens a lot LESS when you restrict options.
[/b]
So when will you folks restrict the "sharp instrument" options? How much more ahead of the firearm homicide rate does it have to get? 5X? 10X? Or do you need a Dunblane with a chef's knife. And don't kid yourself..... a whacko could accomplish that quite easily if he tried.
Originally posted by gatso
By removing the opportunity you reduce the rate at which it occurs.
[/b]
Well then! Time to get cracking on those "sharp instruments"! I guess you could try ideas out on the Scots first.
Originally posted by gatso
Name a single example.
[/b]
"Seeking a suspect in a botched pawn shop holdup, Huntsville, Alabama, police didn't have to look far before finding the man's vehicle-it was parked in front of the store with his daily "to do" list inside that, incredibly, included the penciled-in reminder to "Rob pawn shop." The man had allegedly entered the store, asked owner John Dempsey to show him some stereo equipment and then, as Dempsey turned away, stabbed him with a knife. Dempsey pulled his .32-cal. handgun and, after chasing his assailant-who stopped long enough to inflict additional stab wounds-fired a shot that found its mark. Police later apprehended the man and charged him with robbery and attempted murder. (The Huntsville Times, Huntsville, AL, 9/9/99)"
Good enough?
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Originally posted by gatso
90% of the overtly offensive weapons are already either heavily regulated or illegal over here already. The sharps that are used are either illegal in there very nature or illegal in the sence that they can't be carried legally.
Gatso
So you're telling me that making them heavily regulated or illegal hasn't worked?
:D
Are you going to try rounding them all up next?
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CRIMINAL STATISTICS England and Wales England and Wales (http://www.archive.official-documents.co.uk/document/cm53/5312/crimestats.pdf)
Victims (Tables 4.3 to 4.6 and Figures 4.2 to 4.4)
4.5 Seventy per cent of the victims of currently recorded homicide were male (Table 4.3). The proportion of female victims in 2000/01 (30 per cent) was lower than in 1990 when it was 38 per cent.
Method of killing
4.6 Table 4.3 shows that, overall, the most common method of killing in 2000/01 was with a sharp instrument (26 per cent). Nine per cent of homicide victims were shot.
Seems like things haven't changed much since '97, either.
Seems like something should be done about the "most common method of killing". You know, ban, registration, licenses, etc.
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Bumper stickers seen in England:
"When sharp instruments are outlawed, only Outlaws will have shapr instruments"
"I'll give up my knife when they pry it from my cold dead and bloody hands"
"Sharp instrument control means stabbing your target"
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hand me my broadsword mate ,tis time to carve the turkey, after that , we will have "rhythmic moving". to the tune of "rule titanic, titanic rule the waves".
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looking at the pictures I can't figure out which of those "sharp instruments" are indespensible in anyones daily lives.
guns in the U.S. are used for many things. Hunting target shooting defense deterance etc.. They are one of the few things that save lives and injuries... about double or more what seat belts do if you use the figures supplied by the FBI... some people here (and abroad) want to destroy their usefulness with restrictive laws... now...
let's take knives.... sure... we need em but.... why can't we at least have some sensible laws... start with knife locks... sue knife manufacturers that have these deadly weapons used in crimes... I see nothing wrong with a national regestration of all knives and banning cheap "saturday nite special' knives... who needs a knife over 3" long or that costs less than $800? They are only good for one thing... killing people... And why do you need such a dangerous thing in the house... Maybe eating at home is the problem... knives should be only allowed at government approved resteraunts and you can use them there... banning home cooking is a small price to pay to 'save the children". You knife owners have got to quit equating your knives with your noodle and start thinking of the children. Collectors can keep their knives at approved knife clubs.
oh... if more than 40% of all homicides are commited by blacks then simply moving blacks to england would lower Our homicide rate to below theirs (theirs would of course increase to about double ours per capita). guns would have nothing to do with it. Should we do that? I mean... their extremely high murder per capita rate is skewing the U.S. figures... Anyone know what their 'sharp instument' murder rate is?
lazs
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Originally posted by Nash
I don't know if there's much to be gained from those stats Toad.
If you want someone dead, but don't have access to a gun (strict gun laws), yer next best option is a knife. Such is the case in England. So it should be no suprise that since knives by far outnumber guns, deaths by knives would surpass that of death by guns.
Or are you trying to imply something else and it's going over my head?
Seems you have stated the obvious....when guns are banned, folks find alternative means to do the dasterdly deed.
So banning guns doesn't seem to solve the problem?
Could it be that people do the killing by whatever means is available?
Could it be man's nature that is the problem and not the tools they choose to use.
Is taking away innocent citizens rights the answer?
I await the truth.
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Lol I can't belive you're still running with this Toad. Very sketchy....
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Bravo, Toad, on a most excellent troll!
I can't believe you caught so many, especially so many Brits, in such an obvious net. I would have thought more of them would have been aware of the "Great Beetle Crusade", and known you were turning Beetle's high-pitched wails back on him. All that is needed is to post some anectdotal information of how you use a knife for work but you leave it at work and keep a dog at home, and you will have included our friend from Australia.
As always Lazs, good show. "Let's make a law making murder illegal." Priceless.
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Okay, what the heck is a "golf clap"?
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Kind of like a Curling Clap, I think???...maybe :confused:
Cobra
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It's a hushed, quiet and polite appplause.
Falls somewhere between silence and WOOT!
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Thanks Toad, lazs, others for another set of points which some of these folks can't really address.
I'm sure instances where guns have been used to save lives have been posted. Including news clippings. I know I've read of many already, not only here. Why are they so easy to forget? Not sensationalistic enough I guess.
If someone is in the correct mood, ANY weapon will suffice. Not having a firearm WON'T make them think twice about killing you. Stupid car theives over here have tried to run down policemen. They have no problems trying to kill someone to get away. My younger brother and his friend caught a bunch of car thieves in their high school parking lot breaking into a friend's car in broad daylight. My brother and his friend are both weightlifters but they were outnumbered/unarmed and the theives were threatening them with screwdrivers. The theives got away by punching holes into my brother's tires.
How about banning "assault knives?" Aren't switchblades and daggers already illegal? That isn't making it any harder for knifings to occur.
I think the elders are wise...
;)
mauser
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If you outlaw letter openers, only outlaws will have letter openers.
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Bravo, Toad, on a most excellent troll!
I can't believe you caught so many, especially so many Brits, in such an obvious net.
la-de-bloody-da, Kieran. Didn't he do well? Most Brits couldn't give a flying tosspiece about guns, gun control and the American Way or Beetle's obsession with guns, gun control and the American Way.
For god's sake, moderator, bannish anyone who posts anything about America or Britain or guns or both for evermore. Am I the only one who absolutely sick-to-death of the same old toejame in the O-club?
For Christ's sake, HTC, release another version!
- Dowding
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Thanks for contributing to an anti-english, american, gun thread Dowding
No one is making you read this thread and I pay my $14.95 to read this toejam on the BBS.
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Funny, I thought $14.95 went toward paying for an online game called 'Aces High'.
Golf clap? Is that some kind of venereal disease?
Anyway - every other thread is about gun control or how America isn't quite as good as somewhere else or is slightly better than another place. Finding something else to read is easier said than done.
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Now, now... don't get testy. All I really meant was Toad is obviously trolling, many of the Brits on the board obviously didn't realize it, nor that he was specifically aiming it at Beetle. Actually I find it interesting not many realized what it was all about, meaning Beetle is in the minority (at least on the board).
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I'm not testy, you SOB. ;) I'm being sardonic.
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Originally posted by swoopy
Funny, I thought $14.95 went toward paying for an online game called 'Aces High'.
This BBS comes with a game as well?? :eek:
"Golf clap? Is that some kind of venereal disease?"
LOL! :D
'I'm being sardonic."
First you were Dowding, then Dowding (work), then swoopy, now you're sardonic?? Make up your mind. :D
What a stupid, stupid joke. :(
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oh come on kieran... I think he's kinda cute when he gets huffy and uses words like "bloody' and "shite".
still.... I don't see anything wrong with a little more stringent knife control in the U.K. people could still use their knives when they went out to eat... Knife clubs would allow you perves to "fondle" them under supervised conditions. I'm sure "the home office" (still cracks me up to write that) will agree that some sensible restrictions are needed.
lazs
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Kieran - Doh! Was Mr. Toad's troll aimed at me? Damn. And all I could say was about Tomato's scissors and that I was going to bed. I must have missed something. :(
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Originally posted by gatso
On any given day you are 1.6 times more likely to be stabbed and killed in the US than the UK.
Gatso
Any body seen Carrie? Knives give me the willies...
Originally posted by gatso
(second half)
On any given day you are lots (can't be arsed to work it out) more likely to be shot in the US than the UK.
Gatso
But it is much easier to return fire in the USA :)
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Heh Thrawn. My bro occasionally does post, but never in the O-club. You can tell it's him, mainly because of his poor grammar and spelling. Unleike myselfe.
And you thought your joke was bad.
oh come on kieran... I think he's kinda cute when he gets huffy and uses words like "bloody' and "shite".
This is coming from lazs, the infant terrible of Gameplay Discussion - terrorizer of any thread CT related. I love reading those threads where you get all 'huffy' about how crap the CT is, even though you have no intention of playing there.
Anyway, wasn't this supposed to be a thread started in homage to Beetle's persistence on the gun issue? If so, then consider my comments to be a pastiche of laz's vitriol, ususally aimed at old Beetle.
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Anyway, wasn't this supposed to be a thread started in homage to Beetle's persistence on the gun issue? If so, then consider my comments to be a pastiche of laz's vitriol, ususally aimed at old Beetle.
Less of the "old"! ;)
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Great day it's deep in here, every body protect theeem wrist watches.:D :D ;) :p :) :cool:
Krotki, United we stand
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knive give me the creeps too... they seem kinda.... gay. I find that a gun trumps a knife too.. great to live in the U.S. of A..
dowding... when have I ever gotten mad in a thread?
still.... I don't see anything wrong with a little more stringent knife control in the U.K. people could still use their knives when they went out to eat... Knife clubs would allow you perves to "fondle" them under supervised conditions. I'm sure "the home office" (still cracks me up to write that) will agree that some sensible restrictions are needed. If it saves even one life it will be worth it.
lazs
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I never mentioned insanity.
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Oh i get it.."mad" thats limey for insane... Sorta like bloody means... well... I don't know what bloody means.
lazs
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Lazs -
I find that a gun trumps a knife too..
Good to see you getting into the Bridge vernacular!
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Knife clubs would allow you perves to "fondle" them under supervised conditions.
Comedy gold.