Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: JENG on June 08, 2000, 09:05:00 PM
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Tonight knightcountry was the victim of a highalt run by 5 buffs. I was surprised to see buffs so high... cause I figured Pyro had fixed the laseraccurate bombsight at high altitudes. Aparently not so... these bish buffs where at 33K and totaly took down our HQ.
I believe pyro should adress the accuracy of the bombsight. It may have been a lucky hit... but come on... 33K only 5 buffs and still take down the HQ? Unbelievable yet true.
I know this has been discussed alot before ver 1.2 when it was all to common for dweebs to climb to 35+K to buff... but I thought it was addressed in version 1.2 Aparently not.
To Jolly and the others who made the run... isn't it more fun when you organise a 10 buff sortie with escorts at 25 K then climbing to 33K and be invulnerable? I made a stupid move and got shot down... but bigjoe, ash, udie, etc spend alot of time trying to climb above you but simply couldn't. Ask Caveman bout some buffruns he organised they are alot of fun... and are not at 33K.
To all the other flyers who were on at the time... sorry for losing my temper on open channel... I just flared up and shouldn't have... MEA CULPA.
BEE out
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HQ is a big fat target
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Um, Bee no offense, but a B17 at 33k SHOULD be able to hit HQ. HQ is the BIGGEST building in the game, and I'm sure you can see it from 33k. Now, if you said they had hit acks at 33k then I would agree, but however hitting HQ is alot easier, due to its massive size.
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Hi all,
I've thought of the way bombing is handled in flight sims on numerious occasions, and have yet to come up with an idea that really works.
If you make it virtually impossible for a buff to hit a pin point object through the Norden, then buffs are required to get large groups together to be effective. While this is historically accurate, it's not much fun for the buffs as it is not very often to get a bunch together for a sortie on a whim.
But if they do have pinpoint accuracy especially from an altitude where they can't be intercepted then, then they can level most of the arena unchallenged.
I think that to keep buffers in the game, (and I think we all want them here with us) they have to be able to do a good amount of damage on their own, this requires that the Nordon be fairly accurate or they have to waste a whole bomb load to kill a single ack or hanger (not much fun for the guy driving the buff) But at the same time they have to be somewhat vulnerable to attack.
This leads me to a question. What is the service ceiling of a fully loaded B-17? It seems to me that it should be impossible for a B-17 loaded with gas and bombs could get to 30k and above. Now I don't know much about bombers and maybe they can. If so then there accuracy needs to be SEVERLY degraded at that altitude.
I really like having the dedicated bomber pilots in the game, in fact I look foward to the time when people start forming some seriously historical bomber squads and groups in here. (they're going to need good escort (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)) But they need to be challenged to the same degree as everyone when it comes to being able to fly a succesful sortie.
Thanks for listening,
Sharky
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Playboy Leader
307th FS/31st FG
You can run but ya just die tired
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ditto
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OK, I don't post very often, but I was the 6th bomber in the group. I got shot down at 27k by a Spit diving from 30k.
iN THE INFAMOUS WORDS OF "BUBBA"
"That ain't right"
coker
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Seems to me that we are missing something VERY Important in this game.......
88mm FLAK guns
I am currently reading "The Lucky Bastard Club" by Eugene Fletcher, a WW2 Bomber pilot, and throughout the whole book he relates how they decide if a target was easy or tough by how much flak surrounded it.
A great read to be sure.
Complexes like HQ and the city/factories should have a wall of 88's surrounding em.
Until they give us high-alt flak, living with +33,000 foot bombers is gonna be the way it is, even if ya lower bombsight accuracy.
(http://pages.hotbot.com/games/davekirk/images/Mil.jpg)
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<< MILENKO >> (http://pages.hotbot.com/games/davekirk/milenko.html)
<===THE ASSASSINS===>Webpage (http://www.cybrtyme.com/personal/hblair/mainpage.htm)
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My copy of Jane's Fighting Aircraft of WWII lists the following for the B-17:
PERFORMANCE.-Maximum speed 295 m.p.h (472 km.h) at 25,000 ft. (7,625 m.), climb to 25,000 ft. (7,625 m.) 41 min., Service ceiling 35,000 ft. (10,670 m.), Normal range (maximum bomb load and normal fuel) 1,100 miles (1,760 km.) at 220 m.p.h. (352 km.h.) at 25,000 ft. (7,625 m.).
B-26 is as follows:
PERFORMANCE.-Maximum speed 287 m.p.h. (459.2 km.h.) at 5,000 ft. (1,525 m.), Landing speed 104 m.p.h. (166.4 km.h.), Service ceiling 19,800 (6,040 m.).
Lancaster is as follows:
PERFORMANCE.-Maximum speed 275 m.p.h. (440 km.h.). Maximum range approximately 3,000 miles (4,800 km.).
And as that was less than useful, here is the info from Bombers of WWII:
Performance: maximum speed 442 km/h (275 mph) at 4570 m (15,000 ft); cruising speed 322 km/h (200 mph) at 4570 m (15,000 ft); service ceiling 5790 m (19,000 ft); range 4072 km (2,530 miles) with 3175-kg (7,000-lb) payload
Ju88 is as follows (from Jane's again):
PERFORMANCE.-Maximum speed 295 m.p.h (472 km.h) at 17,500 ft. (5,340 m.), climb to 17,500 ft. (5,340 m.) 23 mins., Service ceiling at mean weight 27,000 ft. (8,235 m.), Range with maximum fuel 1,900 miles (3,040 km.), Range with maximum bomb load (6,000 lbs.=3,000 kg.) 650 miles (1,040 km.).
Hope that helps.
Sisu
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hiya Everyone
Bee we a have squad nite once a week and we wanted to get in b17 and destroy something happen to be Knits Hqs. Most of time we were shooting the watermelon on RW all of us and laughing about different stuffs. I am not the greatest gunner I order my guys to climb up as far as I can to get to target. You kept saying AirwarriorDweebs etc. My squadmates saw all of it we just kept our conversation On RW and Ignore all of your comments. This was the 1st Raid we did On any of Hqs in a very long time. I am not mad at you for those insult words because sometimes this game gets people all aggravated. I have ran into spits or f4s or fws etc that were 25k to 30k and I would be in p38 or 109g10 at 20k and dive on my butt. I never told those guys hey that plane should not be higher than me. Its part of the game and I just say things to myself like darn he was a alt Monkey (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) So to make it short anyone in this game has the right to fly anything at any alt for 30 bucks they pay. Be honest it took a lot of bombs to destroy and did like 4 to 5 circles before the hqs was destroy with the last bomb I had drop. Some squad does thing different than other squad you mentioning how cavemanj does it etc. We have about 20-25 players on our squad but only 7 made it at time of our take off. So that doesnt give us a lot of escort cover for the task we were trying to accomplish. I asked Jolly to go along with us so he has nothing do it his great guy n pilot. if we had say 20 of my squadmates showed maybe we would of tried more of 25k run with some nice comfy escorts. But most of my squadmates couldnt make it and had go with 6-8 pilots.
A Note to everyone do what you got to do and have fun as much as you can with your 30 unless some else is paying for your account than you better Listen to that person (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
See you all in the unfriendly skies.
Bash
http://fly.to.airwolves (http://fly.to.airwolves)
no rules, no ranks and all about fun
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oops guys no break in that above post sorry. Everyone take break than start reading, ok break, read, break, read.
lol
Bash
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Bee,
I understand your frustration but there are so many ways to game the game here.
Is having 3 different warring countries (one of which is probably getting gangbanged) any more realistic? The essence of your post is the displeasure of being unable to defend the Bishop's attack yet just last weekend, the Bishops were being forced to defend against the Rooks and Nits despite having less than a quater of the number of planes of the other two countries combined. This situation allowed Knights to completely destroy Bish city and HQ and keep it down for hours since there were not enough fighters to defend against HQ attack as well as defend their existing bases. As I see it, the Knight buffs were just as invulnerable as Bishop buffs bombing from 33K+. Is that any more realistic when one side has to defend against inordinate numbers of 2 different enemy?
IF there were only 2 countries and this numerical imbalance occured I would equate it to one country losing the war but there are 3 countries so I call it taking advantage of gangbanging.
I'm not saying its right or wrong since there are so many discontinuities in the game that allow it to be abused like this. Both situations are not fun to be in but hey....sh*t happens. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/confused.gif)
-Ding
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Beef, buffs didn't bomb anything at 30k in WWII. It shouldn't happen in Aces High.
Another thing that seems wrong. Any plane that can take off fully loaded from a 10k field with standard length runway (A1)!!!!!!!!! What's up with that? I thought the atmosphere was modeled? No way in Hell a B26 or B17 should be able to lift off of A1 with a bomb load no matter what fuel load it has, unless it was 3 times the length the runway is now, IMO.
ts
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I agree Bashwolf. Sometimes I get really mad at people but I always keep it for me. People play the way they want and I respect that. Spending time to climb to 25K to B&Z in a typhy just to find a 30k Spit. Engage a F4 in a Niki and see the guy dive, run. Setting up for a buff at 20K and see the buff always turning to maintain you in his 6. Seing 2 maned B26's looping and guning you.
You name it, they do it. Oh well, it's really frustrating sometimes, and so what? I'm pissed at a 5K higher pony runing away, but that's 'normal'. He doeasn't need to turn back to me so I can shot him down. It's a mind game, I learned that in Niki. Most of the time I have to tease my opponent, making him think he can get me, then he had a slip second to shot me down but if he misses me, he is in trouble... Kind of like the Wild Weasel tactic but in a Niki with B&Z figs hehehe.
For the buffs, well... everything is possible, u want to lower accuracy? you want to put more clouds at different lvl derivating all over the map? You want to suppress the 1 salvo (Surprised nobody mentioned that already), make it salvo half bomb load at least (it will force more buff to get airborne, no more 1 buff killing all the acks).
Solutions are aboundants, but till HTC changes something, I will not judge the way people fly, even if they frustrate me from time to time, I respect them because I know they use their strenght cleverly and that's normal.
Salute!!! (even to my friend Funked who miserably forced me to a ditch coming like a meteorite from nowhere in a typhy while I was dogfighting DMF/Pongo) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Fear the Niki HiHiHi (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) http://home.cfl.rr.com/rauns/menu.htm (http://home.cfl.rr.com/rauns/menu.htm)
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Olivier "Frenchy" Raunier
(http://home.cfl.rr.com/rauns/SFRT-AH-LOGO.jpg) www.sfrt.net (http://www.sfrt.net)
[This message has been edited by SFRT - Frenchy (edited 06-09-2000).]
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BEE,
I think a big reason why B-17s didn't fly at such altitudes was the effect it had on the exposed crewmen. I remember reading one story where a gunner was badly wounded from enemy attack, and was bleeding profusely. His mates in desperation pulled him over to a gaping hole in the fuselage and placed his wound right over it. In a minute, or two, it froze over and the bleeding stopped.
Also, I heard that v1.03 will have 88mm ack (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Bee !
</french lesson ON>
C'est a peu pret aussi drole que de voir 10 Bish 10 rook contre 45 knight (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
mais c'est le jeu (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
</french lesson OFF>
translated
It's as fun as seing 10 Bish ,10 rook versus 45 knight (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
But it's the game (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
cya!
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Hehehehe, I just think of those poor sods to whom it must have taken hours to get up to that height (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Anyway, Bee sent me some evidence to post, here it is :
http://saintaw.tripod.com/ahss30.jpg (http://saintaw.tripod.com/ahss30.jpg)
Saw
Imnomine et Spiritus sanctis, Aaaaameeeen etc...
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I think Buffs can climb to the moon if they wish, but at 35K+, they should not be able to pin point bomb anything. I chased after the last of the Bish Buffs, got in front and co-alt of it at 37K, but just could not keep my G10 up on my attack run. I personally think Climbing out is a good escape Defense for a buffs. However, I think bombing accuracy should be significantly diminished once over 25Kft. < I also think once those 88's show up there will be great wailing and gnashing of teeth in the buff community>
OTR,
Ash
I./JG-2
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Originally posted by Ash:
..............I also think once those 88's show up there will be great wailing and gnashing of teeth in the buff community>
OTR,
Ash
I./JG-2
Yea, I agree. Once those 88mm show their pinpoint accuracy to 35k we'll have the buffers all screaming that there is no way that ack can be that accurate that high. One more thing to b* about (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Fury
(nothing against buffers, I'm one myself)
[This message has been edited by Fury (edited 06-09-2000).]
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Originally posted by leonid:
BEE,
I think a big reason why B-17s didn't fly at such altitudes was the effect it had on the exposed crewmen.
I Propose that HTC send out an air conditioning unit that drops room temperature to -60 below(F) to simulate what those crews went thru! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Dingy.
Where the numbers you mentioned befor or after the bish dar went down? I remember the numbers being pretty even and then the bish bailed when their dar went down.
I remember being involved in a 6 buffs raid on bish HQ and fatty shooting down half of us in a 1c....Of course we didnt have field 1 to launch from.
The stratos buffs are lame. Especialy when a pack of them do it. There is no corrolation between the knight raids that took place at 17k and some stratosdweebs that are just out to have a "Chat" and further suppress a county that is allready gangbanged. Go chat on rw somewhere else. If you want to simulate satalites for your 30$ then simulate benevolent ones.
What we need is ME163 sites at HQ only.....
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"Stupids are like flies. they are everywere, but are easy to kill"
RAM
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Originally posted by Saintaw:
Hehehehe, I just think of those poor sods to whom it must have taken hours to get up to that height (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Anyway, Bee sent me some evidence to post, here it is :
http://saintaw.tripod.com/ahss30.jpg (http://saintaw.tripod.com/ahss30.jpg)
Saw
Imnomine et Spiritus sanctis, Aaaaameeeen etc...
Evidence!?? LOL! I dont think anyone really doubts that it happened Saw (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
-Ding
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Originally posted by Pongo:
Dingy.
Where the numbers you mentioned befor or after the bish dar went down? I remember the numbers being pretty even and then the bish bailed when their dar went down.
The stratos buffs are lame. Especialy when a pack of them do it. There is no corrolation between the knight raids that took place at 17k and some stratosdweebs that are just out to have a "Chat" and further suppress a county that is allready gangbanged.
Nope. Bish were outnumbered for at least an hour before this happened. Its why the fighters and buffs were able to get to target without any resistence.
As for your comment regarding the dissimilarity between stratodweebs (as you call it) and the Knight raids that occurred at 17K, I COMPLETELY disagree. The common denominator is that a countries dar went down with no hope of defending it. I think thats clear enough isnt it?
-Ding
[This message has been edited by Dingy (edited 06-09-2000).]
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I'm sorry for being aggrivated yesterday, I'm sorry for posting this topic... I'm very sorry for rantin on open channel and calling people dweebs... I normaly don't do that.
Thing is I was just upset yesterday, Ash called out the bombergroup when they were over Field 28 (still far away from our HQ) I was at the time in a N1K and tried to climb up (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Not a good thing to do... by the time I was at the alt the screenshot was taken my Shiden was realy gasping for air (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (IAS 155 mph (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
I know the max operating ceiling of a B17G is 35600 feet. The max operating ceiling of the N1K2 Shiden is 41010 feet.(look at the pic... I don't think I would have ever gotten there). Thing is for an effective attackrun a fighter needs to manouvre to an extend (avoiding guns) and get above and in front of the buff. This is very difficult at extreme alts, the buff however can just fly straight or make very gentle turns and ping ya with his .50's.
However this being said, I'm sorry bash, jolly for my outbreak yesterday. I'm under alot of stress (thesis work) and when I saw the attack and could do nothing about it I just cracked. <S> to you and your squad for a fine performed buffrun.
BEE
PS: I don't think the my country is gangbanged issue has anything to do with this topic, I mean come on guys every country is gangbanged (remember 2 days ago, when bish were attacking 28 in numbers and rooks were getting 26, 25, 31, etc)
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at 35K, I don't think 88 should be so accurate that the buff formation suffers heavy losses. Off course, it can be damaged. I think that what should be modeled more than ripping buff wings is 'turbulences', it will be fun for 'sensation of flying thru an ack barrage' but also those turbulences should throw the 'aircross aim' just enought to not allow an accurate 35K drop.
What u guys think of that?
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The way I see it there are 2 solutions for this problem. They'd work best in combination with each other.
A Wind, preferably prevailing Westerlies 15 mph up to 15k, 25 mph (on a slightly diff vector) over that. Bombs falling from 35K just wouldn't hit the target that often.
B Clouds, thin layers of haze, streamers of intermittant clouds, you name it whatever works. Make it so it's a crap shoot at best if you get a break in the clouds when you need it.
Scattered low clouds (5 to 10k) along with a
denser layer at 25k say would do a lot to keep buffs down where they are reachable.
I'm not sure how much of this is doable, or if we'll ever see it.
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Originally posted by SFRT - Frenchy:
at 35K, I don't think 88 should be so accurate that the buff formation suffers heavy losses. Off course, it can be damaged. I think that what should be modeled more than ripping buff wings is 'turbulences', it will be fun for 'sensation of flying thru an ack barrage' but also those turbulences should throw the 'aircross aim' just enought to not allow an accurate 35K drop.
What u guys think of that?
I like that idea Frenchy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And Bee...you dont need to apologize. I know the feeling after having gone through a similar situation while pursuinig my Masters degree AND working fulltime on a "software project from hell". (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-Ding
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After I got the hang of bombing (it took 1 or 2 sorties) my first thought was "This is too FREAKING EASY!". My bombing accuracy is/was almost 100%. If I drop on it, it goes away.
I always felt a hit should be a surprize, but never is. Only a miss is a surprize.
I have posted up on this topic many times and is one reason I find so much pleasure in the way certain players detail their bombing prowness, when it is so rediculously easy to do. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
After much re-consideration I began to see the wisdom of "LGB Accuracy", but I never really have bought in to it. Such is the game and I play it as it is.
Good Luck! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"Horsecrap. Sick of hearin it.. "
Hangtime
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Hi all
25,000ft was the optimum altitude for bombing in a B17, it doesn't mean that it is the maximum altitude for bombing in a B17!
I bought a book called the B17 Story, and here is a piece from it:-
"Although Luftwaffe did make successful interceptions, these all occurred at under 30,000ft. When the B-17s were able to maintain altitudes above this level they evaded interception, the chief obstacle to achieving the desired altitudes being engine problems - noticeably severe oil loss through the breathers."
Okay, this was based on an earlier version of the B17 but seeing the B17 had to travel a very long distance then they had to preserve their engines (unlike in AH where you really don't have to travel that far!). I agree that the bombsight couldn't have been that accurate at that alt, though I am sure you could hit the HQ easy. Other people use the 'zoom' function so why complain about the buffs?
As for the high altitude buff run... well, recently I've been flying B17s at 8k to 25k max and on five occasions at 25k (I went that alt after being shot down earlier at lower alt) I've had F4U-Cs high above me, two of them at least 35k no joking - and not just the odd lone fighter but often in pairs or more! Needless to say that I got shot down. I enjoy flying lower altitudes because you can normally be in with a good chance of landing some kills as well as bombing your target, but when the HQ requires such a large bomb load are you going to risk one B17 not getting there and then not doing enough damage?
Just some of my thoughts... I am tempted to start flying higher especially if I've been shot down at 20-25k (!)... I will just return higher if I want to complete a specific mission. Apparantly 25-30k was enough to evade flak.
I'm all for lower buff runs... but there are somethings that put you off doing that!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Regards
'Nexx'
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Replicant (edited 06-09-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Replicant (edited 06-09-2000).]
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Dinger..
I was on a mission against the bish dar and got shot down at less then 20k. Is that clear. One plane did us in. We slogged at that hq. it took several raids. The guy that intercepted us did a good job. The guys that tried to escort us had their hands full. Comparing that to an unaposble stratosdweeb atack in mass with field 1 and total numerical superioroity is silly. I dont expect you to see that but as someone who participated it was no cake walk. And it was more fun and interesting for both sides.
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"Stupids are like flies. they are everywere, but are easy to kill"
RAM
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There's one easy way to stop these damn B17s at 33k.....
more clouds
You cant bomb what you cant see. If you cant see the target, get lower....below the clouds.
Swoop
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Yeah, I'm all for outlawing b17s that high, as long as we can include it for the 109s, p38s, p51s, f4us floating around 35k. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Seriously, I'm not half as frustrated by a high b17 as I am by a fighter circling 10k above you, but ends up leaving because it never appeared good enough advantage to engage. In neither case does it do any good to go spouting about it, there's no reason the other pilot should not do what they want to do.
HTC has adjusted the bombsights once, they probably will again, in the meantime relax, and take comfort in the knowledge that radar'll come back, I promise it will.
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Fatty
Fat Drunk Bastards (http://fdb.50megs.com)
"Never before in the field of human conflict was so little owed to so few that weighed and drank so much."
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I know exactly how you mean Fatty. I had a F4UC hanging 2k back for ages and it only attacked when two of his F4UC (yes, more!) buddies turned up! As if he didn't have any advantage with those guns! That incident really peeved me off! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
'Nexx'
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Hiya Bee,
Hope the thesis coming along nice. NO NEED TO APOLOGIZE. Like I said we all get frustated at times and forget that we are playing with people that would party with if we can all get toghter and have a good time (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) including those I kill and die by (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Bash
Did I told how much I love Butts (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Jennifer Lopez butt yummy yummy
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Originally posted by Pongo:
Dinger..
I was on a mission against the bish dar and got shot down at less then 20k. Is that clear. One plane did us in. We slogged at that hq. it took several raids. The guy that intercepted us did a good job. The guys that tried to escort us had their hands full. Comparing that to an unaposble stratosdweeb atack in mass with field 1 and total numerical superioroity is silly. I dont expect you to see that but as someone who participated it was no cake walk. And it was more fun and interesting for both sides.
Yer missing the point. Yes Im sure there have been sorties you've flown in in which this happened. The instance Im referring to, there was NO defense other than me. Bee and his cronies did me without even breaking a sweat. They were able to kill dar since Bish had about somewhere around 15 people on and were getting hit by 50 Knights and Rooks. Bish fields were being taken left and right and we had our hands full just defending what we had left.
My point is that escorted buff raids against a gangbanged country are just as unstoppable as stratospheric buffs.
For the sake of the matter, I dont particularly care for either.
-Dingy
[This message has been edited by Dingy (edited 06-09-2000).]