Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: gofaster on November 25, 2002, 09:20:35 AM
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Should it be a crime to be homeless? Let's face it - most people don't want to buy homes or do business where long-haired, scraggly-bearded bums are shuffling around in dirty clothes and smoking cigarette butts salvaged out of the gutter. These hobos are the living equivalent to abandoned crack houses. They stagnate economic development. Most of them are mentally incapacitated to some degree. So what should be done? Should we let Nature take its course and weed out the weak? What about sanitation and the spread of disease? And property crime? Is there a risk to public safety?
Most importantly, is LA taking a step in the right direction?
=======From Yahoo News and AP=========
L.A. 'Skid Row' Sweeps Spark Debate
Sun Nov 24, 7:41 PM ET Add U.S. National - AP to My Yahoo!
By PAUL WILBORN, Associated Press Writer
LOS ANGELES (AP) - After 21 years living amid the tent encampments of downtown Los Angeles, friends call Tyrone Taylor the "Mayor of Skid Row."
These days, the mayor is not happy.
On two afternoons last week, police officers, accompanied by correction officials and federal agents, made an estimated 200 arrests on Skid Row.
They said they were targeting parole and probation violators hiding amid the homeless. But Taylor and others fear police are moving to take them off the streets.
"They are stopping us at random," Taylor said as he pushed his shopping cart along the street Sunday. "They searched me. I'm not on parole. I'm not on drugs."
The crackdown came just days after a consortium of downtown business and development groups, along with two city council members, called for initiatives to combat homelessness downtown. Officials estimate there are between 3,000 and 5,000 people on Skid Row.
Capt. Charlie Beck of the LAPD (news - web sites) said the raids were designed to get criminals off the streets. City officials say there are no plans to relocate the homeless. Maybe that should be a consideration - establish a "human refugee district" where homeless people could find shelter and food - but then again, who would cover the cost? Private charities? Tax-payers?
Despite official assurances, tensions are running high on Skid Row. A brawl broke out at one outdoor soup kitchen on Sunday.
Barry Laskey, 40, was in a crowd along waiting for a ticket to eat when the violence erupted. Blacks fought Hispanics, and one man ended up with a gash across his head.
"You can feel the tension," Laskey said. "The cops have disrupted the normal life down here."
But some downtown residents, like 44-year-old Donald Miller, who lives in a residential hotel, said the police sweeps could be a good thing.
"It's hard to say what is the right solution, but this is a start." Yes, its always a good idea to get criminals off the streets, but what about the rest of the homeless? Should poverty be a crime?
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Here's your answer:
http://www.mcall.com/news/nationworld/sns-othernews-homeless-lat,0,4367269.story
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I bet he bought he paid for his shopping cart.
This aint the 1800s. Every piece land in the US is owned by somebody. If the city or state decides they dont wont folks sleeping in card board boxes on property they own then too bad.
Most of the homeless are straight up Nut bags that should be in a mental health facility. Lots of homeless commit crimes and generally hassle people. They are more then just "people without homes".
Theres more restrictions placed on camping in parklands then there are for most cities.
Remember the mail box type flags they wanted put on dumsters. A homeless guy would flip the flag up if he was sleeping in there so he wouldnt end up crushed and buried at the dump.
If florida we get a yearly migration of bums who move south to avoid winter. We get lots of guys sleeping in the dunes at the beach. After a few rapes and robberies committed by the homeless they started arresting folks for sleeping on the beach. Ofcourse the libs chimed in about racism and how "unsensitive" and mean spirited folks were to do this to the poor "homeless". Hell we had 2 bums kill another bum because he set up begging on the corner opposite theres. Our tax money pays to maintain the beaches and to maintain the safety for folks who frequent the beach. These bums contribute nothing. I am glad they decided to run umm off.
fediddle umm.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Here's your answer:
http://www.mcall.com/news/nationworld/sns-othernews-homeless-lat,0,4367269.story
I'd heard something about this. Placing folks on derelict cruise ships isn't a new concept. Its been done before, but with inmates and political prisoners on decommissioned military ships.
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in a word
YES[/color]
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The land of the free?
Djust round em up and shoot em!
Sounds more and more like the Talibans....
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In Soviet times we didn't have homeless people here. I was stunned when I saw a homeless man in the street in Washington DC in 1989...
Vagrancy and "parasitism" were considered crimes in USSR. Noone was homeless. At least a bed or a room in a hostel. Most of the factories and other institutions (even scientific centers) had their own hostels. People from school to pension who didn't have an oficial job were forced to get it (a mark in a "labour book").
"Antisocial personalities" usually ended up in "medical-labour profilactories", a mixture of a hospital and prison-camp. They usually lost their residence permit (propiska) if they lived in big cities and were given a residence "behind 101st kilometer".
Now we officialy don't have residence permits. They remain only in Moscow and were declared "anti-constitutional" by Supreme Court several years ago. In Moscow everyone still must have a "registration", and it's the great reason for our brave Militia to leech money from visitors.
Now we have thousands of homeless people here. Militia doesn't care about them because they have no money to take from them and smell too bad. Railway stations and underground are full of them, everyone hates them, but authorities simply don't care.
Once or twice I have thrown such aromatic persons out of the underground cars... One such amazinhunk who didn't wash for years and carries bags with stinkingtrash or empty bottles in a car makes me absolutely crazy - i can't breath that smell :mad: Damn, one of my friends got arrested for kicking such a bum out to the platform - Militia prefers to arrest a well-dressed man and get some money then to deal with this dirty pieces of toejam :mad:
It is not a crime to be poor, but it's a crime to be an amazinhunk who don't want to work at all but prefers to collect empty bottles and sleep in the underground stations getting drunk with cheap poison every night and never cares to wash or at least get rid of louses.
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There are plenty of ways for homeless people in the US to get food and shelter. But most of them are crazy and choose (directly or indirectly) to live that way. Round 'em up, let a shrink have a look at them. If they are nuts or addicted, hospitalize and treat them. If they are not nuts, give them a warning and jail them next time.
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Hi all.
Berlin has lots of them, homeless people, dirty, smelly, most of them with alcohol problems.
2 years ago i a meet about 50- 80 of them when i worked for a monastry 3 days.
A deep impact on me made that horrible smell coimin with some of them, hard to stand it when you together in 1 room.
These guys and women were comin very early in the morn to get a warm coffee and a breakfast in that first cold winter days.
Talked a bit with some of them, most were nice and kindly , some seemed kind'a strange to me.
I just feel sad when i think of these poor people who didn't made it or lost all they had :(
To live as a hobo was a crime in Germany till 1970 or something around that date. Glad they changed that stupid law.
Blitz
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Originally posted by Boroda
In Soviet times we didn't have homeless people here. I was stunned when I saw a homeless man in the street in Washington DC in 1989...
When you're all standing in bread lines, how the hell you gonna notice someone down on their luck worse than you???
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Being poor in America is like being fat. People are free to choose how they want to live their lives. The problem is when their choices impose other people's way of life. I prefer to lay the responsibility on the hands of the person that made the choice.
Fat people should pay double on airplanes and get two seats so their corpus doesn't overflow on others. Privately owned businesses should not be compelled to widen doorways to make space for people who can't fit through them.
On the same token, homeless people should get a job and make every effort to get off the streets. This would occur with help from the offices already in place to help the homeless. If they can't comply, then the government should mandate that they perform public services in the area where they live. These services would involve things like cleaning up public parks and facilities or acting as spare labor in public works and construction. Compensation would be nominal but meals and clothing would come with # of hours of work in the system.
It may sound like I'm suggesting that we stifle the way of life of a minority. Well it's true. People can and should embrace any way of life they desire. That's part of freedom. But with freedom comes responsibility. When the choices of a minority make a major impact on the lives of everyone else, the government has the right to impose structure. That's why we have laws.
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Originally posted by funkedup
There are plenty of ways for homeless people in the US to get food and shelter. But most of them are crazy and choose (directly or indirectly) to live that way. Round 'em up, let a shrink have a look at them. If they are nuts or addicted, hospitalize and treat them. If they are not nuts, give them a warning and jail them next time.
That isn't possible anymore. Most of the mentally affected that are on the street USED to be in an institution. The ACLU filed suit and got a court order to stop that practice as it amounted to incarceration without having benn found guilty of a crime. On one hand they had a point but the result of their action is a large increase of people who are unable to handle normal spocietal living and instead became street people. Sad but that is the way it is. You cannot lovck someone up just because they are crazy. You must have a legal finding that they are a "danger to themselves and others" and that is pretty tough.
A street bum that stabbed me while I was arresting him was released by a judge as incompetant to stand trial. In effect the judge said he wasn't dangerous because he only stabbed a cop. Later he tried again but was shot in the process. This time another judge was far more rational about it and sent the guy away.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
When you're all standing in bread lines, how the hell you gonna notice someone down on their luck worse than you???
No kidding. They must breed the communist spin doctor into their citizens over there.
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You know... there is a reason why churches are tax free.
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Soylent Green.
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We have homeless people because of the drug war.
What? No, not direct result.. well I guess it is... see, they had to kick all of those nuts out of the mental hospitals because the government thinks your tax dollars are better spent on the war on drugs.
They USE to NOT be homeless.... but the drug war is a better use for tax payer's dollars than keeping the crazies off the streets.........
-SW
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Wow Swulfe. That's wrong. No argument even needed.
"Homeless" is another label used to describe people as if they are all the same. "Homeless people are just..." Adress the issues causing the homelessness. See what's left after that.
AKDejaVu
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Which part? That the homeless didn't use to have a spot in mental hospitals, and other places, to live at? Afforded by tax payer's dollars?
Or the part that it was dropped so the money could go towards the drug war, among other things?
-SW
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Do not be poor or sick in america.
HC
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The really sad part is that most of the folks on the streets are truly unemployable. They're homeless because, quite frankly, they have a thin mental grasp on civilized society. A large percentage were released from mental institutions either because the money ran out or the institution needed the bed space. And most of them are alcoholics who may or may not have been productive members of society before drinking their brains away. I read somewhere that the average lifespan for a vagrant is 3 to 5 years, some more, some less, depending on temperate climates, local welfare codes, and food supply.
Here in Florida, we get a lot of vagrants hitchhiking down the Interstate, hopping a train, or generally ho-boing their way south for the winter. A lot of them congregate in the downtown sectors because that's where the soup lines are. Where I live, the bums usually sleep under the bridge onramps and highway overpasses. A few fortunate ones get to sleep on (and sometimes under) concrete benches with a spectacular view out over the bay. I pass them when I go jogging. They usually keep to themselves, just staring out over the water like the statues on Easter Island. I avoid making eye contact, and keep my eyes on their hands, and with my pace I'm only within casual earshot for a second.
If it were up to me, I'd move the soup kitchens out of the city. The hobos will go wherever there's a steady supply of food and shelter. If they want to camp, they can do it in the woods instead of in the concrete jungle.
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Originally posted by hardcase
Do not be poor or sick in america.
HC
What are you talking about? All the un-insured patients end up in city hospitals, where YOU, the taxpayer, pays for it. Forget that the RN's know most of these drug addicts by first name basis..you'll continue to pay for it under the Good Samaritan laws.
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But for the grace of god...
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We should export all of the homeless people in the US up to Canada in exchange for their Grain.
SOB
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Originally posted by Boroda
...Vagrancy and "parasitism" were considered crimes in USSR....
Uzbecks!
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What IS a crime is being rich....er than me
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Originally posted by SOB
We should export all of the homeless people in the US up to Canada in exchange for their Grain.
SOB
I'm affraid we'll have to put a 17% tarriff on each homeless person you export.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
When you're all standing in bread lines, how the hell you gonna notice someone down on their luck worse than you???
ROFL! Oh my, that is funny. Mark your calenders folks, Rip made me laugh today, and he was actually trying to be funny!
:eek:
-Sik
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In Soviet times we didn't have homeless people here.
Funny, but in Moscow, in 1990 I distinctly remember dirty, bare-footed asiatic looking people begging for money of us rich, decadent Western children. Maybe I was imagining them...
- Dowding
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the police can get rid of them however they want - stick em in a work camp, shoot em, institutionalize them - i don't really care at this point.
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Originally posted by mrfish
the police can get rid of them however they want - stick em in a work camp, shoot em, institutionalize them - i don't really care at this point.
Sounds like you're looking for some sort of final solution....Nazi.
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big homeless problem there in ottawa do ya? ah, the bravery of being out of range.
yes, doing the dirty work to thin out that human waste does sound like a good idea - sorry to hear you and weak little cohorts are so squeamish. by all means let's all walk around with our heads down trying to avoid them while they run wild - let's pander to the lowest common denominator for another 50 years and see if we can wreck our cities even more.
when's the last time they came after you with a knife or toejam on your door?
suburban warrior....
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I think we have a very simular situation in Canada. Its just colder most of the year wich makes it tougher.
I step arround beggers all day here. Unless it raining.
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Originally posted by mrfish
big homeless problem there in ottawa do ya? ah, the bravery of being out of range.
I admit, we probably have less of a homeless problem then our friends to the south.
Yet another benefit of living in a more socialist country. :D
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i think it has less to do with your socialism and more to do with the fact that canadians are crazy about l. ron hubbard ;)
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More like another advantage of living in a frozen wasteland. The homeless tend to migrate to warmer cities where they can survive winter. I swear I saw more homeless in La Jolla than even in SF.
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The Peoples Republic of Santa Monica recently decided to stop feeding the bears.... (http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/West/10/09/homeless.crackdown.ap/)
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Pongo,
what do you do to the beggars when it's raining?
Originally posted by Pongo
I think we have a very simular situation in Canada. Its just colder most of the year wich makes it tougher.
I step arround beggers all day here. Unless it raining.
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I figured I'd post that story here, along with my commentary in italics.
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SANTA MONICA, California (AP) -- This liberal, beachside town passed two laws that will prohibit homeless people from camping in front of businesses at night and limit free meals served to them.
Both ordinances passed Tuesday aim to appease business owners, tourists and residents who have complained about increasing numbers of homeless people on Santa Monica streets.
"The public is scared and tired and just generally want it stopped," Councilman Herb Katz said. I can support that position.
The first ordinance, passed by a 5-2 vote, seeks to limit free outdoor meals by requiring groups serving 150 or more people to adhere to community event laws and county health standards. If event planners have to conform with the law, then soup lines should, too. That's perfectly reasonable.
The second ordinance, passed unanimously, makes it illegal to sit or lie in downtown doorways from 11 p.m. to 7 a.m. if the business owner posts a sign to that effect. Good! Power to the people to control their property, their business, and their lives!
Some homeless advocates said they do not believe the new laws will hold up in court.
"When it's all said and done, the laws will be overturned for unconstitutionality," said Moira LaMountain, a homeless activist. "The city will be forced to come to grips with the issues." Interesting how Moira doesn't say on what grounds the ordinances would be unconstitutional. I suspect she's just ignorantly outraged. Property owners should have the right to control access to, from, and on their property, including their business doorways. Long term, the new laws are setting homeless people up as criminals for violation of local ordinances. While not making poverty a crime, its simply making it a crime to be homeless in certain parts of the city, which is something I can support whole-heartedly.
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even in Northeren California... we don't see homeless in the winter.
lazs
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huh? i'll help you find a few, come on over the bridge lasz.
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hey rich guys as long as there are dissposessed men in our society your homes will never be safe firearmes bedambed.
stop the silly drug war and victomless crime incarcerations and spend the money on our cousins sisters and brothers with mental problems.
or you and yours will never be safe its that simple.
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Give em all a campsite on Reagan's ranch.
He had a hand in the closing of the State Hospitals.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
When you're all standing in bread lines, how the hell you gonna notice someone down on their luck worse than you???
Rip, we had "bread lines" only in province in 1991 when we have turned from "evil communism" towards "Freedom and Democracy". And we NEVER had bread lines in Moscow in last 50 years.
And you say you didn't face propaganda about USSR?... Poor Rip. Still stuck in that cold war times.
I only told you how I felt when I was in the US in 1989.
To whgates3: Uzbeks!? What do you mean? That they didn't work? Unfortunately it's close to reality...
To Swoopy: In 1990 we already had all the benefits of "Freedom and Democracy". I was talking about Soviet times, maybe until 1987-88. Gorbachev eagerly destroyed what could be called "social defence system", declaring it "totalitarian" and "non-democratic". Obligatory medical treatment for alcoholics was abandoned in late-80s, then went other Soviet inventions like the right to have a habitation...
It's much better to make an alcoholic sell his flat for nothing and go die of cheap alcohol in the street then to cure him and give him obligatory job and habitation, isn't it?
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LOL Boroda! SO, everyone that came back from Russia in Pre-1990 were all liars? Dang! I knew I shouldn't have trusted those eye-witness reports! :)
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Rip, BREAD lines?! LOL!
BREAD? You mean lines for BREAD? Standing in queue to buy bread? Shortage in bread stores?
Are you sure you are not talking about 1940s?
Yes, there was an artificial bread "shortage" in 1964 when party bosses tried to organize public opinoin against Khruschev, but it was over one day after Nikita was "fired".
USSR imported wheat, but it was fodder grain, there were no problems with bread here since 1947.
Interesting how your propaganda pictures life in USSR. Maybe you have some more interesting "facts"?
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Originally posted by Thrawn
I admit, we probably have less of a homeless problem then our friends to the south.
Yet another benefit of living in a more socialist country. :D
there's the answer!
when the birds fly south we ship the hobos north
those that live through a Canadian winter will be that much healthier and will take a season or two or never wander back south as mother Canada takes better care of them than mean ole US of A
when Tampa had the Super Bowl year b4 last, the cops gathered up the hobos from the downtown/stadium area and "relocated" them to other parts of town. Problem is after the game, they never went and picked them up and put them back!
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I didn't know you like socialism so much Eagler, but you can go get your own! :eek:
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Give em all a campsite on Reagan's ranch.
He had a hand in the closing of the State Hospitals.
...& now he belongs in one...
¦¬þ
as for the Uzbecks! thing - that was a reference to an old SCTV bit that you'll like if you're lucky enough to ever see it...one day maybe i'll be lucky engough to see Uzbekistan...Bokara, Samarqand, the Amu Darya, the Fergana Valley, the Kizil Qum (site of the most dramatic strategic flanking manuver in the history of warfare)....
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Sure hope it's not a crime to be poor. In the US, an income of $30,000 a year is "poor" range. Being "rich" would take a lot more than that.
Sandman made a comment about why churches aren't taxed. It's because they use their financial resourses to help and give aid to the homeless, among other needy people. If it was not for the charitable missions of churches, many of the derelicts would probably die.
My Uncle Clyde, who was in the Coast Guard during WWII, told me he had to go to the Salvation Army at one point in his life. Those were hard times back then. They helped him. He was my favorite uncle, and my Dad would take me over to Uncle Clyde's to visit and go hunting in his 40 acre back yard in the woods. Those days are long gone, but hold many memories.
My Uncle Clyde contributed to society in many ways, just by being Uncle Clyde. He told me one time about his job on the Coast Guard cutter...50 cal. machine gunner. He said that thing would rattle you to pieces when you fired it. I think he didn't care much for it, but he had to learn anyway. I believe he went to sea on a Merchant Marine ship at some point, but it's not clear to me now.
Les
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People shouldn't be castigated for being poor. You never know when life's going to turn around and bite you in the arse.
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I live in the big city & I used to walk past a soup van every day on my way home, most homeless people I saw didn't smell too badly or pee on the street, I could walk past most of them on the street and not notice that they were homeless. But a minority are pretty gross.
Moving the soup lines aren't going to move them, there's always more garbage to go through and more people to beg off in the city.
Many homeless are veterans from vietnam too.
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most of the men are vietnam veterans... they are also all about 35 years old.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
most of the men are vietnam veterans... they are also all about 35 years old.
lazs
Yeah, I've noticed that inconsistency, too. I've also noticed that all of their signs end with "God Bless" or some other similar sentiment.
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There is a lady in our town that stands near a busy intersection with a bunch of cheap stuffed animals, her sign reads:
"Will trade toys for milk or diapers."
About 3 years ago my wife fell for this one and gave her $10.
The toy lady is still on that corner.....
Guess those kids are difficult to potty train.
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If you eliminate the addicts and the insane, that's about 90% of the homeless. Any program to deal with the homeless should have treatment of mental illness and addiction as #1 priority.
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Originally posted by lazs2
most of the men are vietnam veterans... they are also all about 35 years old.
lazs
Same thing here - most of the men are Afghan or Chechen veterans.
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I'd be surprized if you had an insane thought in your head Funked. Don't try to pass yourself off as insane, when you're a coward.
Les
j/k not really, thought it sounded good:)
Les
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I don't get it.
Leslie, are you homeless?
I'm sending a guy with a truck and a big net. :)
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Originally posted by funkedup
If you eliminate the addicts and the insane, that's about 90% of the homeless. Any program to deal with the homeless should have treatment of mental illness and addiction as #1 priority.
I'd prefer Soviet exprience, "elimination" isn't a way to deal with persons who are sick. Mental sickness is not their fault, or at least not only their fault.
AFAIK their problem is called "hebephrenia". It's a well known metal desease.
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I didn't mean to say that the people should be eliminated. Their afflictions are what should be eliminated.
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The company I work for is currently suffering a slow death. However, the company party line is "Be happy, don't worry."
Now I have fianances to survive several years of no income, but many do not. Yesterday, the company fired 100 +. I saw grown men and women cry.
Some may become homeless, through no misbehavior of their own. They simply followed the American dream and the credit consumption binge incouraged by industry, banking, the the U.S. Gov.
But for the grace of God...
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wow! all those people got fired yesterday and today they are homeless? SD must have the wierdest unemployment insurance and welfare system of all the states. Did the banks get advance warning of the impending layoffs and send goons out to throw those people out of their homes this morning? were they allowed to take any personal belongings with em? How bout their cars?
lazs
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Originally posted by Boroda
I'd prefer Soviet exprience, "elimination" isn't a way to deal with persons who are sick. Mental sickness is not their fault, or at least not only their fault.
AFAIK their problem is called "hebephrenia". It's a well known metal desease.
I guess you got me there Boroda.
Les
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Originally posted by 2Slow
Some may become homeless, through no misbehavior of their own. They simply followed the American dream and the credit consumption binge incouraged by industry, banking, the the U.S. Gov.
wow you learned that soundbite really well. most people get creative with it but you spit it right out exactly. you could have added "why, most of us are only a paycheck away..." for extra effect but still....bravo
golly, the bank made me charge up my credit and the mean old republican bankers and i couldn't figure how to go bankrupt and get a job at the pizzeria scrubbing the hobart and live in on the bad side of town til i got it together - nope everything just went south one day and i just walked out onto the sidewalk and sat down and put my cup out. and it's all someone else's fault and i am helpless to do anything about it
gimme a break guy...i'll forgive your naivete since you live in SD.
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Originally posted by funkedup
I don't get it.
Leslie, are you homeless?
I'm sending a guy with a truck and a big net. :)
Tell him to hurry up.:D I'm sorry Funked. I think I misread your post I was responding to. It was a stupid response on my part, and I'm glad you have a sense of humor. Thanks!!!
Les
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mr fish... you are a cruel man... didn't you see the example that 2slo gave of 100+ people who were laid off yesterday and todayu they are homeless? have you no compassion man? It could happen to you.... laid off today... under a bridge by nightfall...
and ... soundbites are good... who cares that there is not one wisp of truth to em... it's all about feelings... have you no feelings?
A riddle.... does reading newspapers and watching the news make you a moron or is it just that morons watch the news and read newspapers?
lazs
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the only 'homeless', sign-holding, out-of-luck person I've ever given any money too had a sign that said something like:
"Oh what the hell...
I'm not dying from cancer or out trying to raise money for my orphaned children.. I just want a drink!"
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There's this one homeless guy that use to sit out in front of a Wendy's that use to be near my work (they closed it down)...
He had an arrow on a stick that he would point towards a cup dangling in front of him and he'd sing a tune:
"Please gimme some moneee, so I can buy a foteeee. I'm not foolin, I just wanna start boozin."
The entertainment value alone is worth a dollar.
-SW
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In DK; you have to go really far to be homeless. You'd have to wreck your government sponsored apartment two times or more, and then squander away the money you get to pay for the 3 month advance payment of rent. Then you'd have to be unwilling to do what the government ask of you (i.e stop wrecking apartments, perhaps take part in a program).
With such extensive safety nets, a homeless person in DK is one that either has mental problems, cannot control rage, is a substance abuser og just generally cannot function in a 'normal' society. With function I do not mean job; I just mean being able to keep ones apartment from being wrecked and being able to hold on the the advance payment money long enough to actually give them to the person you rent from. Very little is asked for here if you're a bum; if you're a responsible person, much more is required, but I digress.
The US lacks the majority of the welfare safety nets that are present in DK, and reaps a reward in form of more spending power and less direct government spending. The backside of course is that it's much easier to become homeless. My knowledge about homeless people in the US comes from documentaries, so it's probably highly biased. Anyway, in those documentaries, there were the 'common bums' - the slightly insane, the drunkards, the drug addicts. However, there were also homeless people of a type I haven't really seen here - seemingly normal people that for various economic reasons have been unable to pay their rent and consequently been thrown out. Some have had problems finding a job because most require the applicant to have some kind of a home address.
It really doesn't matter and since my knowledge is based on tv documentaries it shouldn't be seen as anything but a comment.
The issue as I see it: should the state (and thereby you) spend, say, 10 million dollars attempting to help those which can be helped, even though it knows that in the process, some of those 10 million dollars willbe lost? Perhaps only half of those getting help will end up back 'inside' in society. Or should one maintain that each person is responsible for whatever situation they're in and should therefore not be helped through government intervention?
I agree that the latter on the surface seems the fairer way. A tax payer should not be forced to 'donate' money to help someone else. On the other hand, there are at least some instances where a person is homeless through no, or just a slight, mistake of their own, and where a little help can go a very long way. Letting such a person spend a (short) life in poverty and misery seems a little heartless. So IMHO, a directed, targettet and focused approach should be employed where those likely to succeed would get aid. True, some will complain that then the help does not get to those who need it most. On the other hand, those that need the most might be incapable of using whatever help they're given. it all boils down to economics in the end though and to a certain degree selfishness. Do I want to take 1 cent of every dollar to get some stranger a home? A great deal of Americans would say no (a cultural difference between Americans and Danes).
Ripsnort said:
What are you talking about? All the un-insured patients end up in city hospitals, where YOU, the taxpayer, pays for it. Forget that the RN's know most of these drug addicts by first name basis..you'll continue to pay for it under the Good Samaritan laws.
Hm Ripsnort, just a question to clarify your position. If, say, someone was working hard, had four children to support and barely was making it could not afford a health insurance and then got mugged and shot on the way home from her third job, would you have a problem if YOU, the tacpayer, paid for her care?
If this is true, you're a pretty harsh man. It's akin to not stopping at a car accident where someone is yelling for help because doing so would mean you'd be late for work and thereby miss a few minutes worth of income. Then again, I agree that it should be your choice whether to stop or not (then again again, here there are laws requiring you to help out in such situations)
Guess what I'm trying to say is that poverty sucks, and selfishness doesn't make it better. The selfishness might even bite yer in the arse; you never know what happens in life, and you (or one of your loved ones) might end up piss poor without a place to live, unable to get a job because you stink, look like toejam and have no home.
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Just think Ripsnort, the VA picks up my tab 100%....something about the taxpayers anteing up.
HC
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stsanta... there is no limit to the amount of homes a welfare "family" (one woman, 3-6 kids and 7 "uncles) can destroy and get more of.. In nice areas the welfare system installs people in houses that rent for 1500 bucks a month.. they gaurentee the owner that they will fix all damage. While we are at work the "uncles" burglarize the neighborhood.
your area and milage may vary in America but.... those who least need welfare... the bright clever and able bodied ruthless ones... are able to work the system and tap into huge reserves of "programs... those who are mentaly unbalanced are "protected" from being rounded up and put into institutions by the ACLU.
lazs
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Same here lazs, same here. Good intentions are ruthlessly exploited :/
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ruthelessly tap into the system...corporate welfare has been doing that for decades.
HC
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I live in Bristol, UK and recently here a homless begger guy with a drug problem kept getting arrested for bugging people, they worked out that he made around £1200 a month from begging ! thats over £14000 a year tax free! :(
he's now been banned from the city.
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hardcase... it can be argued that with corporate welfare we at least get some return most of the time... Are you really trying to defend the welfare system exploiters by pointing out other exploiters? What are you trying to say?
The more "safeguards" we put on the welfare system the more it becomes a benifiet to only those who are dishonest, ruthless and cunning. Like most lefty ideas... it sounds good but is unworkable in society. Lefties have allways been easily exploited by the criminal class.
lazs
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Lasz.. Children on welfare are they criminals exploiting the system? 40 million americans do not have any health care insurance. McDonalds in Euro must pay for their employees health and they still seem to be making money. Dont live from paycheck to paycheck and get fired. Don't develope a chronic medical condition and expect to live the lenght of time the more affluent members do. When you complain about mothers on welfare, yoiu seem to overlook the kids. Able bodied Single males don't usually get to speak of. Some free medical clinics wont treat males for free. Disabled ppl get some welfare but it won't make for a decent living. My guess is that like most welfare moaners, you are young, never been in need, not umemployed, have no family concerns, Since you want to change the welfare system, by probably eliminating it how about some particulars on your youth and situation now. You can brag how nothing has gone wrong simply by the strenth of your will.
Being in need in America only works well if you are American Airlines. Others simply have to survive with a minimum of governmental help. Europe on the other hand, taxes more but more of the monies go back to the people in form of social programs that create a health society. Ever looked real close at the underside of American Society? You might be disenchanted.
HC
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Originally posted by lazs2
hardcase... it can be argued that with corporate welfare we at least get some return most of the time...
Oh roadkill, you don't see a dime of it, unless you are stockholder in some large multinationals.
The Small Business Administration gives millions to fast food chains, so they can open up yet another MacDonalds. Then that MacDonalds or Taco Bell, drives the legitibite small business out. Yeah that's good for everyone. Now your kid or migrant worker can get a minimum wage job.
The US government puts up unfair tarrifs against Canada in order to protect the American farmer, roadkill again. The American farmer and ranchers way of life is being destroyed by your own countries large multinational meat and agricultural companies.
I suggest you read a book called, "Fast Food Nation" by Eric Schlosser, it's very enlightening, and depressing.
The more "safeguards" we put on the welfare system the more it becomes a benifiet to only those who are dishonest, ruthless and cunning. Like most lefty ideas... it sounds good but is unworkable in society. Lefties have allways been easily exploited by the criminal class.
lazs
A benefit to only those who are dishonest, ruthless and cunning? roadkill again. I know people have been on welfare that have been none of those. Unworkable? Yet more roadkill. Canada has had a larger social safety net then the US for years. And have a lower infant mortality, longer life span, are better educated, all while spending less on health care or education then they US, we also have less violent crime and consisitant score higher then the US in the UN list of best countries to live in. Soviet Canuckistan appears to be doing something right with this crazy Socialism thing.
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Wow, hardcase is going to need some oral foot removal cream.
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And have a lower infant mortality longer life spam
Minus is that you? :)
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no thrawn the purple tuesday is me
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being mentally ill myself i can understand sick people more than any of you could ever hope. I consider myself very lucky to live in the period of history. Earlier in the united states history people were castrated for being ill, or put in mental institutions and locked away for life.
I was headed toward being homless before i started having delusions that someone was coming to kill me. And yes i did'nt take very many baths. its hard explain but i did'nt have enough motovation to take one. And stilll never the end of how i stink. If it was'nt for social security i'd be stuck with a family that did'nt even try to understand my illness before judging me. Thy probbaly would have kicked me out of the house and i would have started drinking to control my ilness without even knowing i was ill.
Most mentally ill people drink to control their illness. And yes some can be violent. But most ill people aren't violent when ilness is'nt active, but it can happen. Here in oregon you can have your right to own a gun taken away if the judge decides your a threat with one.
And i don't have a problem with working its just i don't have enough "motovation". its hard to explain but that the way it is.
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We are ALL homeless, if we lost our soul.
We're ALL ill, if we forget we're ALL brothers.
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Many ppl self medicate with alcohol. They self medicate because the social programs in the US are minimal at best. The US looks woderful on the surface but so many problems are under that surface. What sorta tickles me is so many in the middle class believe they are secure. Many are only 4 paychecks away from the street. No savings, no second skill, or are middle managment or a middleman in the consumer chain dependent on the ecomomy, depending on consumers. No major medical problems, no children who need 50K a year to stay alive with 250K on their major medicals as a max. HMOs whose motivation is the bottom line and not health care. They are simply one single tragedy away from poverty, natural or man made and yet they believe the Republican agenda has their welfare at heart. Most don't make enought money to qualify as truly Republican. They merely like to think so.
Trestic, I have some idea of the demons you battle and to fight someone who knows all your follibles and fears takes more guts than ppl can imagine. My hats off to you ...One day at a time, friend, works quiet well
Mine big broken thing was colon cancer, and without the VA's medical care I would have been at the mercy of the welfare sectors in America. My anti nausea pills alone will cost $1800 over a year of cheemo. In the welfare sector I would get the 25 cent ones that make you unable to function. I am one of the 40 million who work and the company does not provide heath care. I have absolute health care, 100% paid by your and my tax dollars and the risks I took from '66 to '68. Thte only diff between me and some poor guy working for $10/hour is the being drafted. Do not be poor or sick in America.
Where have I put my foot in my mouth? Just for a single example..you and I live in a country which has a third world infant motality rate. That is a condemnation of governmental policies that should haunt you.
HC
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Originally posted by hardcase
Where have I put my foot in my mouth?
Comments about Lazs.
Just for a single example..you and I live in a country which has a third world infant motality rate.
Can you document that? Last time I looked at those stats I don't recall the USA being bad at all.
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Originally posted by lazs2
most of the men are vietnam veterans... they are also all about 35 years old.
lazs
Lazs nailed the B.S. dead center.
Did you know that as a group U.S. military veterans of the 'war in Viet Nam' had/have a higher level of education, a lower incidence of drug abuse/addiction, and are more successful in the business world than any other group of U.S. military veterans of any of the wars the U.S. was involved in before Viet Nam?
http://www.stolenvalor.com
Mike/wulfie
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Yeah hardcase and one of the biggest travesties in America is that there are guys sucking up money that guys like you deserve - guys who are getting $3000+/month, tax free, FOR LIFE, from the taxpayers for being '100% disabled due to PTSD' - except they never served a day in the military. They were rounded up for 'PTSD studies' (I can't sleep at night because the government trained me to kill babies with a knife for psyops being the mantra of such studies, along with other typical b.s. stories about the war in Viet Nam) by psychiatrists who were rabid 'the U.S. must pay for daring to fight in SEA' types during the war in Viet Nam. Such types didn't know what to say a couple of years after the 'sucessful people's revolution of self-determination by the people of Viet Nam' when the Soviet Union had a major Naval Base at Cam Rahn Bay and more innocent Vietnamese people had died in 2 years of 'communist peace' than in 14 years of 'imperialist war'. But that's a topic for another thread and another time... :)
Also, the only difference is not being drafted. One of the big differences is that you are still alive, while many others who were drafted are not. It doesn't make sense to not honor someone's sacrifice (in your case, subjecting yourself to life threatening situations to fulfill your civic duty) just because they didn't end up making the 'ultimate' sacrifice. What kind of a Nation would the U.S. be if they didn't take care of those who have answered the call as loyal citizens? There are alot of people who may be unemployed or on welfare today that were probably making a heck of alot more $$$ than you back in the late '60s and doing so in an infinitely safer environment (i.e., the private sector).
People in the U.S. should be appreciative for *any* welfare system. There are plenty of Nations in the world today that have no welfare system to speak of - where alot more people would be dying daily from starvation and exposure if it weren't for 'donations' from more wealthy Nations.
http://www.stolenvalor.org
Mike/wulfie
p.s. Hardcase the HMO problem was for certain present during 'democratic party watches' in the past - I'm the only guy in my entire extended Family (Dad, Uncles, etc.) who *isn't* a Doctor - and they have all been pissed at HMOs (and circumventing them and the more evil aspects of the health insurance system whenver possible) for quite some time now. A really good medical support system is tough in a democracy - it's always going to be expensive but the only people who will readily vote for it are people like you who have first hand knolwedge of how badly it is needed. And I know how badly it's needed as well but we need better control of benefits (i.e. sneaking across a border not equaling full benefits, a more secure National I.D., etc.) before such a plan would gain alot of support I think.
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thrawn... this is not canada (thank gawd).. I don't believe you know anything about our welfare sytem and the amount of fraud involved. You must know how well your system works and how much all that infant mortality and education has helped your economy. You can keep your brand of socialism. I would love to see a comparison of canadas benifiets compared to the U.S.... All I know is that my brother is canadian and i send him money every month because he is disabled and doesn't get enough from canada to live on... On the bright side... the money I send is U.S. money and as such... worth something up there.
hardcase... I defy you to point out one person who was refused medical care in the U.S. at a county hospital. Most get the same care that I get. As for "migrant workers".... don't you mean illegal aliens? Far as I know all permanent employees at fast food places get benifiets.
Those bums out there aren't there because yesterday they were a 30 buck and hour construction worker and lost their job... people working at fast food places are not in careers. If they are... well... maybe they need to work longer hours. Those jobs should be stepping stones not careers.. they should be part time for college students and such... I don't give a crap about illegal alliens and would prefer they ask if I want fries with that in english that I understand.
lazs
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you guys are talkin about the last major block of demacrat voters now that the blacks are jumping ship to the republicans
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Back in the late 1980s, the government of New York City, in what was hailed as a great humanitarian effort, started a program to build low-cost housing for the citiy's estimated 45,000 homeless vagrants.
Despite the money, time, effort, and hoopla, the city's population of homeless vagrants remained at or near 45,000. Studies later concluded that many of these homeless preferred their life on the streets because they could live there free of any obligations to the government programs or citizens' organizations.
The low-cost housing was later rented out to low and middle income families.
Regards, Shuckins