Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: BotaBing on June 10, 2000, 07:28:00 AM
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I keep seeing reports of german pilots who had over 100kills, yet the top american fighter aces seem to have been in the 20-30 kill range.
I guess thats because the germans where flying longer, fighting much closer to base, etc?
[This message has been edited by BotaBing (edited 06-10-2000).]
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Botabing,
The german pilots flew until they died. There was little to no rotation of pilots in the LW. Additionally a large number of those kills came on the russian front where at least initally the germans enjoyed a superiority in both the quality and quantity in planes and pilots.
The pilots in the LW were highly trained highly motivated pilots and it is not surprising that they were as successful as they were. But if you take the kills vs time in combat of the allied pilots and extrapolated <sp> that out to the same amount of time the LW pilots were in combat you'll see that the numbers of kills would have been about the same.
Sharky
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Playboy Leader
307th FS/31st FG
You can run but ya just die tired
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I might be mistaken, but I'm under the impression that many LW kills came from the eastern front, before there was a western front. I also beleive that many kills were aquired vs. inferior AC during the German push through Europe... not that the LW didn't have excellent pilots, but what could compete with the LW from 1939-1942?
Salute,
IC
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Gunther Rall said that in the LW you flew until you got an "Iron Cross, or a wooden cross."
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Originally posted by iculus:
I might be mistaken, but I'm under the impression that many LW kills came from the eastern front, before there was a western front. I also beleive that many kills were aquired vs. inferior AC during the German push through Europe... not that the LW didn't have excellent pilots, but what could compete with the LW from 1939-1942?
Salute,
IC
[ironic mode one]
Uh,yes...I guess that Jochen Marseille got his victories because in North africa there were worse planes on allied side...the fact that th LW was outnumbered on 3/1 most of the conflict, and nearly 7/1 in last stages, doesnt matter at all.
Same in eastern front. Erich Hartmann got 357 victories because he was flying agains a unskilled russian foe. OF couse. The fact that LW was outnumbered 20/1 in late 1944 onwards doesnt matter a toejam. At all.
Why would I talk about Rall, NOwotny, Moelders, Galland...Especially the 2 later they got more than 100 victories in 2 years because they were only lucky SOBs. Oh yeah.
[ironic mode off]
If the Allied pilots had to fight all the war as LW pilots did, yes indeed more than one would have had more than 100 victories. Marseille got 100 victories...in 6 months.
Harmann got 357...in 2 years (less than that).
Galland 100 in year and half
Moelders 100 in year and half,too...
Etc etc etc...
Go and search for an allied pilot who match that.
Galland and MOelders fought mainly in Western front (Galland ALL his victories there).
Marseille in North Africa, where LW was in numerical inferiority.
Hartmann in eastern front, mid '43 onwards. May I say what were the conditions there?...
The finest pilots in WWII were Germans...and one little Japanese guy called Saburo Sakai.
But we discussed this before. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Marseille got 100 victories...in 6 months.
He must have slowed down at some stage. After all, he got 17 in ONE DAY!
Even Galland described him as the 'virtuoso of fighter pilots'.
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RAM,
Why did I know that you'd come riding in here on your Iron Cross? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I knew when I wrote my response I was thinking to myself, "be very careful how you word this or RAM's going to get all insulted"
The LW were very good pilots, they were however not Supermen. I tried very hard to give them the respect that they were due, however the fact remains that the largest reason that some of the LW Aces were able to amass terrific scores of kills was simply the huge amount of time they spent in combat and the target rich environment in which they operated. Period.
Any pilot that survives combat will become better at his work the more times he goes up. (all things being equal and not allowing for luck or the lack of or fatique etc). The more times he goes up the more likely he is to score victories against his enemies and the harder it is going to be to shoot him down (He will be come better at killing and also surviving)
Now in any field, some truely gifted people will be found and the LW certainly had their share of those (Hartman, Marseille, Galland come quickly to mind). I'm sure the Allies had there share also, but due to circumstances, beyond their control, did not have to opportunity to show it like the LW pilots did
I'm sorry that you see this as some sort of slight against the LW RAM, it was not my intention. The pilots of the LW, politics aside, were great men and are deserving of the respect of all of us. I tried very hard to word my response in this vein, so as not to offend. However I'm slowly learning, that when it comes to discussions of the LW were you are involved, this is impossible.
I appolgize if I still managed to offend you, but I don't appoligize for my response to why some LW Aces had such dramatic success.
Sharky
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Playboy Leader
307th FS/31st FG
You can run but ya just die tired
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The finest pilots in WWII were Germans...and one little Japanese guy called Saburo Sakai.
Are you implying that ALL Japanese fighter pilots were "little" men compared to Luftwaffe guys? How could you say that?!?
I am SO OFFENDED!
<pops open bottle of prozac and tosses RAM a pill>
(kidding ) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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There goes Ram again... my hotblooded Spanish friend...
Indeed you could say that he was bount to show up in valiant defence of his heroes... sorry for being sarcastic ram but you should cool down a bit...
The Luftwaffe had some great pilots... but what makes an ace? First he has to survive enemy contact and score his first kill... then he gets better with every combat sortie flown... and you have to admit that the Germans flew many many sorties...(also more chance to encounter the enemy). I'm not going into the inferior plane bit... they didn't face inferior planes in the BOB, North Africa, Russia (from 1943 on)... by the way there are many 100+ aces that scored them all against western allies.
What I do want to say is ... the allies had also some exeptional pilots in their ranks who just couldn't get their killtotal up their cause they only had a combat tour of 50 missions.
I think maybe the best thing to compare pilots is to look back to WW1. Both sides had at some point the technological advantage or the numbers... but still you see that the three highest aces are all within 10 kills of eachother. (Richthofen, Guynemeyer, Bishop).
I believe you had exceptional men on all sides.. but saying this or that country were the best flyers, aces, etc is just ridiculus.
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BEE(JENG)
=CO=II/JG2~Richthofen~
CLICK ->>> JG2 INFO (http://ripsnort60.tripod.com/JG2inquirer.html/)
(http://nottosc.tripod.com/109bee.gif)
'Nemo Me Impune Lacessit'
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So the Luftwaffe had all the best pilots apart from one.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Pulled from "I flew for the Fuhrer", a diary type book by Hienz Knoke.
He flew better than 2000 operational sorties, was shot down about 20 times and scored 50? kills.
Someone has these exact numbers, I'm sure, but the point is, the Germans fought as long as they could, using whatever they had, so "Ace" stats can't really be compared across countries.
<edit>Ooops, forgot:
Lizking
[This message has been edited by Gadfly (edited 06-10-2000).]
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Botta bing pretty much summed it up.
Biggest factor was number of bad guys.
The most important prerequsit to a high score is targets. The germans had lots of them.
The majority of the top scorers did most of there scoring after 1941. So everyone had good ac. The Eastern pilots had higher scores only because of the larger number of targets made available(at least until mid 44)
Once air supperiorty was established over the continent and the fighters were forced to atack the day light bombers things changed but for the most part the Germans shot down the western allies just as rapidly as they shot down the Russians in direct relation to how often they engaged them.
A quote.
" The successes achieved by Werner Schoer contradicts the common theory that the German fighter pilots' large successs were only due to the fact that they took part in many more missions than their allied counterparts: Schoer flew 197 combat missions and shot down 114 RAF and USAAF aircraft. Acomaprison may be made with the top US ace in the European theater of war, Francis Gabreski, who made 153 comabt missions and shot down 28 German Aircraft."
Most of you will not have heard of Schroer. He is not famous despite having shot down 5 squadrons of western allied aircraft.
If Gabby had 400 bad guys cross his sights in his 153 mission then he would have had 100 kills too. Or been dead. Although it is not recorded I bet the two kill totals far more accuratly match the number of Enemy they contacted then the number of missions they flew.
Given an effective aircraft, massive numbers of targets and an aggressive competent pilot, the kills rack up. It would be a mistake to think that for every one of these aces 10 lesser guys were killed. For most of the war loss rates were quite low.
The introduction of the FW190 to Africa resulted in the loss of 150 Allied aircraft and 8 Fw190s... in 4 months.
Once the tide had turned in the west the German fighter pilots became the whipping boys of thier country, their moral plumetted the quality of their AC for the high alt intercept mission was questionalble and the quality quantity and experiance of the enemy aircraft and pilots on both fronts began to hammer them from all fronts. But this was only really the last year of the war.
At this time the numbers of pilots that were still extremly effective declined signifigantly. Many of the mid to top pilots with 150-250 kills began to die off. Many of them died after transfer to the western front. The western front was much different tacticaly and technilogically to the eastern. The spits and p47s gave very little time to learn the differnences. At times the top allied pilots were able to inflict multi score sorties on the german pilots that they had been used to inflicting. Some of these multi score missions were not against the chaff of the pilots either. Some of the top 109 pilots were lost to Western pilots on high scoring missions.
So it is safe to say that the top 25 or so most SUCCESSFUL pilots in history were WW2 germans. It is silly to say that other nationalities in the same circumstance would not have produced simular pilots.
The two top canadians flying in RAF squadrons in Malta(Buerling and Macloud) destroyed more enemy planes in six months then the whole RCAF spitfire contingent in Britain did in the same six months. Targets.
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"Stupids are like flies. they are everywere, but are easy to kill"
RAM
[This message has been edited by Pongo (edited 06-10-2000).]
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If you read their works, say "The War Diary of Helmut Lipfurt", you quickly realize that LW pilots couldn't help but rack up high numbers.
Lipfurt flew with JG 52 for 3 years. He flew almost every day, three times a day. And he found VVS planes on almost every hop. The fact he stayed alive is an amazing feat. But, if he was good enough to stay alive, he was good enough to kill the bad guys. He got 203.
But, if you compare kills per sorties, Robert Johnson of the 56th FG did better than Hartman. Sorry, it wasn't just a matter of skill. It was skill and opportunity. And a large part of tactics and superior planes. Plus, you must remember usually LW pilots weren't captured if they were shot down. Rall was shot down 3 or 4 times. Lipfurt was shot down at least 6 times. If a USAF pilot got shot down, 9 times out of 10 his war was over.
If Rall had been born in Dallas and flew with the 357th FG and Meyer had been born in Hamburg and flew with JG 77, who's to say that Meyer wouldn't have had 250 kills and Rall wouldn't have had 20?
To make a blanket statement that one country's pilots were better is ignorant.
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Lt Col Dune
X.O. 352nd Fighter Group (http://www.352ndfightergroup.com)
"The Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney"
"Credo quia absurdum est." (I believe it because it is unreasonable)
- The motto of the Republic of Baja Arizona
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The correct numbers are: Over 400 operational sorties, shot down 5 times, 33 officially credited kills.
Kills per sortie? The best in that category would have to be Günther Scheel - 71 kills in 70 sorties!
[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 06-10-2000).]
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Maybe if the US had better ammo other than the 50cals, their kill #'s would have been higher too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) !!!!!!!!
(sorry, just couldn't resist (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif))
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Pongo, you said it bud. <S>
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Which side had more aces? Germany kept its Aces flying until they died, but the U.S. rotated its Aces back to the states to train new pilots didnt it? So which side had more aces?
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RAM,
You're not much for making friends, are you?
IC
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RAM, You always do a post good, add a little spice you know (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Try to shake that chip off your shoulder before posting (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Up until early 44, the LW truly ruiled the skies over western Europe. In January 44 Eisenhower came to England from the Med theater to assume his position as Supreme Commander for the invasion of western Europe. He brought with him air team, which consisted of several commanders with whom the General had worked with and felt comfortable with. Two of them had an important impact on JG26 and the Jagdwaffe. One, Air Vice Marshall Harry Broadhurst, took command of the fighter component of the new Second Tactical Air Force, which contained many squadrons formerly belonging to Fighter Command (RAF). The British Fighters were relieved of much of their escort responsibility as they took up their new task, which was to help soften up the invasion coast. The old warning "achtung spitfeuer!!" once again chilled the German Fighter pilots along the the Channel coast, as the spitfire formations dropped to the deck in search of aerial targets.
Another importanmt member of Eisenhowers air team was Lt. General James Doolittle, who took Generals Eakers job of commander of the 8th AF. He made it plain that Aliied air superiority was a prerequisite for the sucessful invasion of the continent. Since the invasion was scheduled for late spring, the air commanders would have to reorder their priorities, and fast. The allioes could no longer wait for the bomber Generals to fulfil their dream of defeating Germany by strategic bombing alone. In Doolittle, Ike had the perfect airman for the task ahead. Doolittle, a reservist, had no particular loyalties to the theories of Srat Bombing. Always a pragmatist, he was quick to throw out policies that did not contribute to his immediate goal of defeating the LW. American escort doctrine soon changed; the fighters were ordered to patrol fixed zones along the bombers track instead of escorting specific bomber wings. This subtle change in tactics permitted tghe escort formation leaders to concentrate on finding enemy fighters, rather than the "correct" bomber fiormation-- bomber units that missed rendevous were left to fend for themselves.
This was taken from--"JG26--TOP GUNS OF THE LUFTWAFFE" by Donald Caldwell. It doesnt give the specifics but you can see that the change in doctrine and had alot to do with the success of allied pilots, the same type of success that the JG's enjoyed form 1939 on. Early on--the LW had the superior AC in all aspects on both fronts anfd the superior doctrine. They were also ordered by Goering himself to NOT attack RAF or USAAF fighters, but to concentrate on the Bomber raids. The JG's would sortie a lightening attack against the bombers and dive away before the escort had the oppertunity to defend. The 56th FG (Zemkes unit) were using their own tactics which were not the same as Fighter Commands and because of this they enjoyed some early success in early 43 on. They were a "loose" formation anjd used this to bounce the 190's and 109s out ahead of the bomber formation while the The JG's were forming up for the standard High 12 ock attack on the bombers.
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Originally posted by fdiron:
Which side had more aces? Germany kept its Aces flying until they died, but the U.S. rotated its Aces back to the states to train new pilots didnt it? So which side had more aces?
According to Mike Spick Luftwaffe Fighter Aces ISBN0-8041-1696-2 : "Whereas a tally of 30 victories was exceptional among British and American fighter pilots, a mere 35 German pilots were credited with the destruction of no fewer than 6,848 aircraft in air combat- an average of almost 196! Two of them had actually topped the 300 mark!"
...
"By the five-victory convention, the luftwaffe produced something like 2,500 aces in all;..."
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Liz of TSM
"O.K., here's my point..."
Vlad the Impaler ;)
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
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Just a little quote I read somewhere. Dunno how correct or relevant it is, but here goes:
"In WWII 5% of the pilots made 95% of the kills"
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"Head-ons are for pilots that don't know what their next move should be"
Ltn. Snefens
RO, Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
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Hartmann had how many sorties before his first victory? How long was an American pilot's tour before he was rotated out of the theatre? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Not a slam, RAM, but this is apples and oranges...
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Originally posted by RAM:
The finest pilots in WWII were Germans...and one little Japanese guy called Saburo Sakai.
Finland had the highest amount of aces per capita in WW2. Well, actually up to this date, I suppose. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Eino Ilmari "Illu" Juutilainen scored 94 victories in 437 sorties, making him the highest scoring non-german pilot in Europe. It is said that Juutilainen was never hit by an enemy pilot's bullet.
The 109 G-2 in Aces High, "MT-222", was Juutilainen's plane, in which he scored 17 victories.
Don't forget the little nation up north, RAM. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Camo
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Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
www.muodos.fi/LLv34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
Brewster into AH!
"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."
[This message has been edited by LLv34_Camouflage (edited 06-11-2000).]
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Originally posted by fdiron:
Which side had more aces? Germany kept its Aces flying until they died, but the U.S. rotated its Aces back to the states to train new pilots didnt it? So which side had more aces?
fdiron.
had a top US pilot been in constant combat whith the germans from dec 7 41 till may 1945 it is exctremly unlikly he would have seen enough of them to get over 100 kills.
We could get into the production figures if you like but when you add up the Russian, British, American production figures it really is rediculous how many planes opposed the Germans.
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"Stupids are like flies. they are everywere, but are easy to kill"
RAM
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Allied pilots had, at times, a very high difficulty in even finding an airborne target. I know a man who flew the P-51D during WW2. He never even saw a LW plane airborne. He is not an ace.
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"I have returned"
Mitzu
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 06-11-2000).]
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What we need to find is a Wildcat pilot- then we can see if he saw any Japanese a/c. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Seriously, people are people, and to buy into the concept that one country has inherently better pilots than another is to buy into the "ubermensch" concept, and we all know where that got us... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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A remarkably civil thread, given the controversial topic.
Most of the points have been covered, so I don't have a lot to add. I will say this though:
If you want to judge the quality of a fighter pilot, you should probably look at his 'strike rate'. That is, how many aircraft he shot down over a given number of missions.
The highest SR that I am aware of indeed belongs to Scheel. As far as I know, he's the only pilot with a SR that is greater than 1. However, a substantial number of pilots of all nations stack up favorably against the Jagdflieger when using this method. Bob Johnson especially comes to mind.
Sure, this is balanced in favor of pilots who operate in a target-rich environment, but I can't think of a more pragmatic way to measure the effectiveness of a fighter pilot.
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Vadr
III/JG 2 'Richthofen' (http://personal.inet.fi/cool/jan.nousiainen/JG2/)
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Vadr that assumes he sees as many bad guys per mission as the next guy. A poor assumption.
Unfortunalty the only way we have to judge fighter pilots is by how many planes they shot down. In that sence we can only compare allied pilots to allied pilots and german pilots to german pilots.
We have no qualms procalaiming someone the "Greatest Allied Ace of WW2"....
of course we cant change the scale just because we dont like the result.
The top (many) greatest aces in history are Germans...Doesnt mean they would kick all those allied aces buts. Doesnt mean they were better at anything. But they are the greatest aces by the only standard that the PILOTS used.
History is cruel somtimes. But there is no twist or stretch that will allow you to proclaim a 38 kill pilot supperior to a 352 kill pilot. In one case all doubt is anwered in the other you have to ask, would he have survived against supperior odds? for thousand of missions? One is proven. He has done what the other did and alot more. The other is proven in every enviroment and situation his country faced in the air. But Many of the challanges the 352 kill guy faced the 38 kill guy never did. Do we assume he would have presevered? or do we give credit where credit is due. Being an ACE is about destroying aircraft. That is all it is about. Do we say that Joe Schmo who flew in Canada in 1973 and never shot down a thing is an equal pilot to JEJohnson?
No we dont. He never got the kills. Cunningham was an ace that shot down lots of planes based on the number he engaged. Do we say he is as good or better then Richtofen?
Kills are kills. Or else we have to take the easy ones away from Allied aces too and McCambells score plummets and so do many p51 aces scores.
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"Stupids are like flies. they are everywere, but are easy to kill"
RAM
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Guys...GUYS!
Of all those hundreds of planes shot down by aces....how many were fighters? How many were cargo planes or ground attack planes?
I would give a guy who shot down 5 fighters more credit than another guy who shot down 30 light bombers or cargo planes.
Hans.
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Hans.
Which ace are you talking about. Most of Hartmans kills where fighters and IL2s with many Pe2s thrown in. This was typical for russian front pilots. That is what the Russians flew and that is what was shot down.
These guys were not flying P51s. They did not get to go behind the lines and nock down Transport planes. I doubt that any of the top 5 german aces got any "transport planes".
Light bombers....is the stormovick a light bomber? That term is meaningless in WW2.
Interesting that you deride the losses of transport planes. As far more allied kills were made against German transports than visversa. Maybe at arnhem the allies lost some dakotas to fighters but the allies were pretty good about establishing air supperiortiy befor they sent the C47s in.
You seem to be in denial about the nature of the German scores. The western allies were as well and immediatly set about estabilishing the authenticity of the high kill totals after the war. There accuracy was established to be at least as high as the allies. In fact many american scores were adjusted down by them after the war(some near 20 kill pilots moving down to less then ace) But the german claims held.
Get comfortable with the rediculous totals of the german aces.
If you want to be critical of the german victory claims the best way to do so is to ask how many British trucks Marseille destroyed, how many airfields he straffed how many fuel dumps he strafed.
The answer is few if any. He was there to hunt planes his wingman was there to count the kills. The German people adored him and gave him recognition and glory. Meanwhile the men he preyed on destroyed the Africa corps from the air. They carried on to their targets and helped inflict a terrible defeat on the Germans. They harrassed the supply lines and destroyed the fuel dumps. This is the real purpose of air power. Not to exist in itself and gain glory for its elite best. But to atack the enemy from the air and hinder his ability to wage war.
Taken in that light. Which is exactly the light that the Allies viewed it from. Who was the more effective?
History has voted in a conclusive manner the value of 200 kill aces vs the value of a rationalized tactical air plan. I know how the german troops on the ground would have voted.
But the star of africa shot down 158 of the best men that the allies could send against him. No historical revisionism will change that. Every one has been corilated against allied records.
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"Stupids are like flies. they are everywere, but are easy to kill"
RAM
[This message has been edited by Pongo (edited 06-12-2000).]
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Speaking of Marseille (cheap plug otw) you can read more of him on my Web site.
There is a bio and interviews which I transcribed.
http://jg27.org (http://jg27.org) click on "Marseille"
Just a PS, it is pretty much agreed that Marseille gets the nod as Ace of Aces (even Hartmann gives the nod to Marseille) but if you study "Buzz" Beurling's record and biography, it is very spooky the similarities between the Canadian and the German - almost to the point if that you read one, you have read the other. It certainly blew me away.
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Countries with the best pilots of ww2. 1 theGermans by a wide margen 2 The finns What they did with the 109 buffalo and italian planes was awsome. 3 the russians they had to fight the best and from mid 42 till 45 fought on semi equal terms. 4 the japanese The top of them were as good as any in ww2. They were handicaped by the zero from mid 43. Japanese industry let them down. Bad motors weak wings and a lack of a good supercharger design.
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heh, I'd say the Zero was obsolete by February 12th '43 when the F4U scored its first victory with VMF-124. ;)
Also, how did the confirmation system work with all these countries besides the US and Britain? Did they just get credited with a kill by claiming that they shot an a/c down or were there other precedures? I know the Germans used gun cameras at times, but not the Japanese and Russians.
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Pongo;
Well spoken! Rejoincing your battles (or your Heros) does not win a war.
Eye;
As usual, I have no clue where you are coming from....
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"I have returned"
Mitzu
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Eye.
I am not sure your point except that I think its wrong....
The best "pilots" per capita of the war were likly Italian. They concentrated on acrobatics to the exclusion of shooting and tactics. The best russians also greatly impressed the Germans with their "Piloting" skill.
As far as who were the best "Fighter Pilots".
thats easy.
pick which airforce you want to take on.
1944 German
1944 Russian
1944 Japanese
1944 American
1944 USA
1944 Finish
1944 British
The last force you chose to engage are the best fighter pilots of WW2.
I take the Americans.
Aggressiveness, equipment, training, numbers
they had it all. Thats why they destroyed the two most powerful air powers in the world circa 1941...
They would have done the same to anyone else in the world.
Some times its the over dog thats best.
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CO
Sturm Crows
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Most of the high points have been hit...The major reasons the german scoring was so high is as follows:
1) very high contact per sortie rate
2) the tactical doctrine employed
3) the fly till you die policy
4) the pilot "recovery" factor
I'll add one more, the germans had tremendous experience in the spanish civil war...unmatched since most of the russian vets were purged by stalin.
On a personal note I think it's impractical to think any one side had the "best" pilots...equipment, fortunes of war, tactical doctrine all had an effect. In my mind Saburo Sakai far exceeded any other pilot in WW2.
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I have to agree with hans to some extent. Yes, the germans shot down mostly fighters, but what were those fighters doing? The were flying escort. A much different proposition than the fighter sweep or interception. Most of the time, especially late war, allied pilots were prohibited from following germans down to the deck. Escorting is a crappy business in RL, and even the germans suffered very high losses when they did it in the bob. So I agree with most of the reasonable posts here, that target saturation and total # of sorties made a big difference, but I would add that you should also take into account mission. The luftwaffe spent most of the war from 41-42 on flying interceptions were they were almost guaranteed contact, whereas the allies were principly concerned with bombing the crap out of the enemy and avioding contact was always a priority. Given the outcome, I would say allied stratigy was more effective than axis tactics.
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"If we weren't intended to eat animals, why are they made of meat"
-Krasni Lushka
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Originally posted by lushka:
Yes, the germans shot down mostly fighters, but what were those fighters doing? The were flying escort.
Actually, they just didnt shoot down so many transports. Alot of what they shot down were heavily armed bombers. The Americans were flying escort true, but they were trying to engage the Germans, who were trying to avoid(mostly) the fighters and engage the bombers.
A much different proposition than the fighter sweep or interception. Most of the time, especially late war, allied pilots were prohibited from following germans down to the deck.
Only while still attached from the bomb group. Once they were released, they were on free for all flights, instructed to straff anything that moved. They frequently had intelligence on what airfeilds were in use along their route and would either try to catch LW plans taking off and landing, or just straff the heck out of them.
..whereas the allies were principly concerned with bombing the crap out of the enemy and avioding contact was always a priority.
I have to totally disagree. From what I've read, contact with the enemy was sought. Especially once the escorts had range to target. It was allied policy to destroy the LW at every opportunity. Bombers were good LW magnets.
Originally posted by Dune:
If Rall had been born in Dallas and flew with the 357th FG and Meyer had been born in Hamburg and flew with JG 77, who's to say that Meyer wouldn't have had 250 kills and Rall wouldn't have had 20?I think Meyer would've ended up in a concentration came, point is mute.
IMHO the great pilots lived, the unlucky ones didnt make it.
Anyone read the interview with Joe Foss over at dogfighter.com? Great reading, the man is a real "character"
Liz out
p.s. no harm intended, just ernest debate.
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I am up for a little debate, as long as we keep it friendly.
"The Americans were flying escort true, but they were trying to engage the Germans, who were trying to avoid(mostly) the fighters and engage the bombers."
My point was that the germans were flying from a total advantage in that they knew where the enemy was and controlled when and how the attack would happen. The escort fighters sole mission while the were attached was to protect the bombers, not to kill german fighters. If the germans disengaged, the escorts had done their job.
"Only while still attached from the bomb group. Once they were released, they were on free for all flights, instructed to straff anything that moved. They frequently had intelligence on what airfeilds were in use along their route and would either try to catch LW plans taking off and landing, or just straff the heck out of them."
You are referring to the period after d-day. Before d-day, the escort fighters didn't have the range to escort the bombers all the way to the target, let alone loiter around after they were released. It is also similar to the problems the lw faced in the bob in that the escort fighter is constantly watching his fuel gauge and thinking about the egress. These things are irrelevent to us in AH, but weighed heavily on the pilots who were there.
"I have to totally disagree. From what I've read, contact with the enemy was sought. Especially once the escorts had range to target. It was allied policy to destroy the LW at every opportunity. Bombers were good LW magnets."
Again, only after d-day, at least in northern europe. My point is simply that the LW had a huge advantage in terms of scoring kills in that they were fighting a defensive air campaign. To the allies including the russians, for the most part, destroying the lw was a secondary aim. Yes, of course they were meant to seek out the lw, but only after their primary mission was achieved. The lw, for their part, wouldn't turn up for dedicated allied fighter sweeps.
"I think Meyer would've ended up in a concentration came, point is moot."
Quite right.
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"If we weren't intended to eat animals, why are they made of meat"
-Krasni Lushka
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Point taken. I hadn't thought of the fact that Meyer was Jewish (not that I know for certain that he was).
OK, let me ask the same question, just put in MacDonald's name, or Goebel's or Anderson's or Preddy's or any other US ace. Or Johnson or Pattle or Malan or etc., etc. Change their name to any German name you please. Their skills would stay the same.
Then the question is most certaintly not moot. My point is still the same. An superior pilot from one country would probably have had similar results had he flown for a different one. (Provided of course he survived long enough.)
If the war was fought again, who's to say a lucky shot wouldn't have killed Rall, Hartman, Bong, Marseille, Malan, Sakai or Gabreski any other ace on his first mission. No matter how good they were, all of them had luck on their side at some point. Even if it ran out later. Hell, Rall was shot down several times. He had the tip of his finger blown off by a .50 cal round 6 inches to the right or left could've killed him.
Given the right amount of luck so that they lived long enough, any of these men, with their abilities, would've been able to score. No matter where. Fate or karma or whatever put these men in the situations they were in.
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Lt Col Dune
X.O. 352nd Fighter Group (http://www.352ndfightergroup.com)
"The Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney"
"Credo quia absurdum est." (I believe it because it is unreasonable)
- The motto of the Republic of Baja Arizona
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While there are some advantages in national temperment that probably aided the Germans somewhat, I agree.
I disagree however about the objective of daylight bombing. One of the big things that they were trying to accomplish was to draw out the LW. Thats what Rodeos and Ruhbarbs were for. They were not intended to bring the Germans to their knees but to draw out the LW. Which seems to tbe the oppisite of what is being said here.
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Its very simple. The reason the top German (in particular), Finnish and Japanese aces all have much higher (2 times+) scores than their Allied opponents is because they were flying in a target rich environment, e.g. they were losing and losing badly. To suggest that Germans, Finns or Japanese are naturaly superior is simply rasism. If the Americans, British or Russians had been in a situation where they were facing those kinds of numbers, they too would have 100+ kill aces.
The idea that anything is taken away from the German, Finnish or Japanese aces by pointing this out is also rediculous. Those pilots were VERY good at what they did.
Sisu
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Originally posted by JENG:
ram but you should cool down a bit...
LOL, it is impossible, he can't. If you know a bit of genetics you should know that most of the spanish have a magnufacturing defect. They are born with the WEP switch stuck in the ON possition and no throttle control (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)