Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: davidpt40 on November 27, 2002, 06:05:25 PM
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Due to time constraints, how about 15k air starts for heavy bombers at rear fields? This will not only promote more realistic heavy bombing, but it will also help to encourage some high altitude fighting (escorts vs interceptors).
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ohhhhh david...one word: run!
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This will be fun:D I got a seat right down in front.
AirScrew
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Incoming!!!!!!
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COVER!!!!!
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maybe a dud? :D
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Originally posted by davidpt40
This will not only promote more realistic heavy bombing, but it will also help to encourage some high altitude fighting (escorts vs interceptors).
It wouldn't be realistic as you would probably see bombers at 40+K.
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We already have fields at 11k on the much loved pizza map. Starting with an altitude would be unworkable, for many reasons, just think about different situations where the "magic altitude
could be abused.
It is true that bombing takes time, but considering that one person can take out small and med fiel FH as it is now, I cant imagin if I could come in at 25k or so with easy...how nasty it would be.
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About time, Oedipus, the suspense was killing me. Good response, not to heavy handed. Don't want to give the kid a complex do we:) not unlike yours?;)
AirScrew
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I would also like to see this feature.
I am a realism lover. To me this idea has ALWAYS made sense.
US Bombers liked 15000 - 22000 feet IIRC. I think the RAF like 18000.
This would save bomber pilots time.
My 109 intercepter does 4000+ feet per minute climb. I like that sort of challenge.
Its not fair that the bomber pilots have to waste so much time just climbing, only for a CLICK FLY DIE type flyer to nail them at low level.
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Diversity is the spice of life. Same applies to Aces High.
The majority of air combat in Aces High occurs at about 5,000 feet. This altitude favors certain aircraft, and certain styles of fighting. Now with a heavy bomber airstart of 20,000 feet (from rear bases only of course), a new element would be added to AH-high altitude combat.
The bomber squadron I was previously in used to do many high altitude raids. It sure was a pain in the butt to climb for 45-60 minutes in a B17 while maintaining a close formation. But one of the reasons I was in a squadron was because I was tired of the tedious 5k furballs that are the norm.
Heres my plea: Give airstarts a chance. Maybe just for one tour. Bombers will become more common, high altitude fighting will add a new challenge, and ETO American planes will have their chance to shine. I know some people may be reluctant to allow air starts because their hunk-of-junk La7s, N1k2s, and other low altitude garbage planes won't fair so well.
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Would be great to have that feature for off-line practice.
Les
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Originally posted by Leslie
Would be great to have that feature for off-line practice.
Les
Get the "germany" map. it has a 30k airstart.
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david i think you are really missing something here.
if it werent for hour long climbouts to 18K, i would never wash my dishes, or do my laundry, and i would have this big arsed beard because i would never find time to shave.
HTC secretly extended climbout times so us junkies could do the chores most people do without thinking about it. Just think of Hitech and his crew as your surrogate parents.
now go check the expirey date on your dairy products while climbing to alt.
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Not a bad idea. Really hard to keep alive in bombers these days
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I've always loved Air Starts! Never got one in a bomber though. Got one on the wing of PT a couple of times. Does that count? (It was parked in the hangar; it's tandem cockpit so that'd be pretty hard to do in the air.)
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Originally posted by Pongo
Not a bad idea. Really hard to keep alive in bombers these days
Better to fix the broken system properly than attempt to put a bandaid on it. (A useable bombsight, and fixes for the various bomber formation bugs are whats needed, not airstarts)
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bomb sight works fine. Just need to make the buff guns work as they should with 3 bombers and fix the bugs that make it so easy to damage all three quickly.
Bombers now are weaker then they have ever been.
Air starts not a bad Idea though.
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All those airstarts would promote in the MA would be more of the milkrunning strato buff runs on mostly undefended targets like the HQ. No thanks to this idea.
-Amboss
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Pongo,
The bombsight works when it works. But as often as not you can do a perfect(or seemingly so) calibration only to have it miss by a mile. The problem with the bombsight isnt that it's impossible to use, it's that it's impossibly inconsistant. The slightest change(1-2mph, or 1-2 feet) makes even a perfect calibration worthless. Some room for error is needed.
The tiny blast radius, and impossibly tough targets doesn't help.
Much of the game seems designed to slow down the old style laser-bombers, and stop them from doing too much damage. Put up against the new bombers, it overcompensates.
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Well I never have problem hitting targets with my bombers. It is easy for a b17 or lanc formation to kill a city in 1 to 2 passes tops.
Same with HQ I drop at 30 k at hq have no problems knocking out dar unless cons have shot me up. Just the way it should be. If they don't up they deserve to lose radar.
As for toughness bombers are find I've shoot down 4 fighters in b17 formation. and I have had my bombers all blown up by 1 fighter who knew what he was doing. Can't remember pilots name but he took 30 mins to knock all 3 bombers out of air. Becaus ehe did perfect passes he lived to land his plane. So As one who loves to bomb as much as he likes fighters. ITS perfect now.
And its true I do all my work when I set bombers towards hq. Feed horse, Do dishes, Shower, even once did mile high club, But wife was soooooooo pissed when she fond out game was still on during our time:(. WOOOOOOOOOOO E is me won't do that again.
Mwrod AKA Rod367th now
" OOPS There Goes Another CV"
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Originally posted by MwRod
As for toughness bombers are find I've shoot down 4 fighters in b17 formation. and I have had my bombers all blown up by 1 fighter who knew what he was doing. Can't remember pilots name but he took 30 mins to knock all 3 bombers out of air. Becaus ehe did perfect passes he lived to land his plane.
Mwrod AKA Rod367th now
" OOPS There Goes Another CV"
Half-hour to kill 3 B-17s? What was he doing between passes, washing his hair?
Ack-Ack
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Originally posted by MwRod
Well I never have problem hitting targets with my bombers. It is easy for a b17 or lanc formation to kill a city in 1 to 2 passes tops.
Same with HQ I drop at 30 k at hq have no problems knocking out dar unless cons have shot me up. Just the way it should be. If they don't up they deserve to lose radar.
As for toughness bombers are find I've shoot down 4 fighters in b17 formation. and I have had my bombers all blown up by 1 fighter who knew what he was doing. Can't remember pilots name but he took 30 mins to knock all 3 bombers out of air. Becaus ehe did perfect passes he lived to land his plane. So As one who loves to bomb as much as he likes fighters. ITS perfect now.
And its true I do all my work when I set bombers towards hq. Feed horse, Do dishes, Shower, even once did mile high club, But wife was soooooooo pissed when she fond out game was still on during our time:(. WOOOOOOOOOOO E is me won't do that again.
Mwrod AKA Rod367th now
" OOPS There Goes Another CV"
Sorry buddy, im calling you on this one.
If you can kill a town in one pass i will sign away my first born to you. (read: IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO KILL A TOWN IN ONE PASS.)
Almost impossible to do in two passes.
And you have no problem killing HQ in one pass with B-17's? Hmm too bad you dont have enough ordinance to do so. Even if every bomb hit directly on the main hq building.
Please, cut the carp.
I will say though that bombing has become futile. The only reason to form a heavy bomber flight is for pilot enjoyment alone. Bombs dont do poop. A 250 pound bomb let alone a 500 or 1000 pound bomb would make ANY AND ALL targets in AH inoperable. Hangers, Fuel tanks, Barracks, Ammo dumps...all could be porked IRL by the smallest of bombs
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Originally posted by davidpt40
Due to time constraints, how about 15k air starts for heavy bombers at rear fields? This will not only promote more realistic heavy bombing, but it will also help to encourage some high altitude fighting (escorts vs interceptors).
I don't believe this is built into arena management, rather it has to be built into the arena itself. For example, the Germany map we've been using in TOD has it.
Nuttz, 10bears, what is the situation?
curly
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to hell with the f22. I want at least a galaxy class starship, complete with full armament and shields. As a matter of fact, hook me up with quantum torpedoes, a cloaking device and the ability to fire while cloaked.
Heck, it'd be fair to take off and nuke the site from orbit....it's the only way to be sure...
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Originally posted by Innominate
Better to fix the broken system properly than attempt to put a bandaid on it. (A useable bombsight, and fixes for the various bomber formation bugs are whats needed, not airstarts)
cough, the bombsight works fine for me... the drones could use some work. I've lost them in the most bogus ways, as them flying straight on into a hill when I turned slightly to avoid said hill etc, etc.
Airstart is kewl though. Why not have airstarts for interceptors at the rear bases ;P or better yet airspawns from the rear bases to the front -
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(holster sidearm checks dtx, cool only winged him. He'll be healthy in no time, and on latrine duty for the next 50 years!)
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Arcade players, please stop reading here :D
Buff formations (not 3-ship, but 4-5 players) with escorts, flying at 15-20k are able to inflict quite a lot of damage, and they are really difficult to stop, given a proper job of little friends.
Current implementation of Buffs allows the fighters for some "realistic" engagement with such big planes.
25k+ Buff runs are far from realistic, let alone 30k.
Plus, on certain maps, you can take off at 10k alt... ;)
For me, Buff model is as acceptable now as disturbing on previous versions. Hey! It even requires some skill to hit something...
We have no engine management, we have laserfinder, we have 5k icons....I think we have enough quake as it is now. No need of 30k buffs again. :)
Edit Note: It would be useful, tho, having a .spread and .distance command to set the formation shape and distances, and adjust the "carpet" accordingly. And, of course, bomb craters modelled.
Cheers,
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I took down 97% of a CITY in 3 passes with a single lanc formation from 18K. Get a single trio of 4kers on a town and damn near everything will blow up.
The bomb site isn't broke. Bits of the formation stuff are a bit bent. Air starts in the MA... :rolleyes:
Gatso
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sure but we should also have `15k air starts for fighters to promote "realistic" escort and interception...
much better than realistic targets and realistic fluff crews and views. I also think that a lot of the fluffers can't work a mouse very well so it would promote more fluff missuns dudz if the fluffs had auto pilot and auto drop. just click on the target and auto does the rest.
lazs
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I was missun you in this thread, Lazs :D
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Originally posted by Innominate
Better to fix the broken system properly than attempt to put a bandaid on it. (A useable bombsight, and fixes for the various bomber formation bugs are whats needed, not airstarts)
THe bombsight is very workable....just ask any Knit or Bish that have seen me above thier formerly operational bases BWAHAHAHAHAHA!:D :D :D :D :D :D
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I take down 95% of a city with one pass of 3 or 4 bombs. I have done this to 4 towns in one sorti.
When I miss. I know why. I dont think there is anything wrong with the bomb sight.
But the survivablility of the formation is way too low. Between scanking the guns and the bombers being more frail. I think the Bomber 'fix" isnt done till we have some real fear on the part of interceptors when they go after a 3 ship formation of b17s.
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Originally posted by Pongo
... till we have some real fear on the part of interceptors when they go after a 3 ship formation of b17s...
Wrong side. It is the Buffs the ones who should be scared if flying unescorted. Yet the damage possibility is rewarding enough for them to fly, IMHO.
Failing to model it so, we would be back to the most quakeish and nauseabund activity in pre-1.10 AH: the dreaded Jabo B-17. Sometimes the new fighter B-17.
Cheers,
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Loser your welcome to ride in my bomber any time. I never need more than 2 passes to kill a city. And many knights can attest to this. I have even killed city ejected and came back my own goon.
here is my way of bombing city. for under 25k i use 500 lb bombs. Cut city in 1/4's in your mind. 0.0 line 1/4 1/2 and 1.0 lines do this both ways on city. first pass drop by flying over 1/4 line north south line. drop 1 bomb 0.0 1/4 1/2 and 1.0 east west lines. then flip drop on 3/4 line n/s line same bomb pattern. Entire city will be destoryed.
Now fbfalcon told me he could kill city in 1 pass I said roadkill. But then I did it his way it is possible but is risky. You have to take 9 1000's and a 4000 in lanc and cut city dia. from 1 corner to other corner. dropping 1000's then 4kis in middle city then 1000's again. Granted only got entire city 1 pass just once usally farm is still up. But then you could take bomber low and kill it.
I would not try 1 passes as its not sure thing unless i was going to goon it my self and no cons up . I would recommend 500's in b17's 2 passes and city dead with bombs left over for vh.
Loser have taught many bombers how to bomb. Newbie in squad can kill city 2 passes even now. It is easy and i have plenty of films if you would like to see how.
But best way to teach you how is get in my bomber as gunner. And i can walk you thru steps of how i bomb. This is how I teach others. By explaining what i'm doing as i bomb.
Anyone is welcome to fly in my bomber and I will teach . I do not care which side you fly for.
I will flim a bombrun today or friday and send it to you. If you like i will make a training bomb film. and anyone who likes it i will send to you.
If you would like a copy of bombrun on a city. E-mail me at Pontiacedu@yahoo.com.
or if someone would host bombrun flim We could post on boards.
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Any kind of airstart is BS. Besides accurate terrain elevation for historically correct terrains I also don't like the idea of elevated airfields to artificially influence the arena either.
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Pepino
Dweeb bombing is way more common then it ever was. Your own argument is self defeating. Guys come in at 30 ft in lanc forations in hopes of killing one hanger..I see it all the time.
I cant believe that Pyro intended for these 3 bomber formations to be more vulnerable then the singe ships were. But they are..far more vulnerable.
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I'm not into Buffs, but I would like this also.
In RL Buffs could not defend themselfes when attacked by cons. But when its only a single con, they should stand a chance.
Now, only the B17 is in that position to defend itself. When I find 3 Ju88 or something, and it(they) dont have fighter-support, theyre dead. It just takes a couple of approaches, because of my lousy aim :)
With air starts (maybe 7k or something) they would have better chances to survive, because many fighters just dont care to climb to the buff-alt. Altitude seems to be the main defense for buffs in the MA...
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Originally posted by Pongo
Pepino
Dweeb bombing is way more common then it ever was. Your own argument is self defeating. Guys come in at 30 ft in lanc forations in hopes of killing one hanger..I see it all the time.
I cant believe that Pyro intended for these 3 bomber formations to be more vulnerable then the singe ships were. But they are..far more vulnerable.
Pongo,
We changed dweeb 35k pinpoint accuracy undestructable single buff ride that could destroy *all* of a field's hangars to suicidal dweeb running hoping, basically, to make a lot of noise and a bit of destruction.
I, personally, welcome the change, as it was utmost irritating, again for me, having my Ta-152 unable to intercept the so usual Space Shuttles who were, in turn, perfectly capable of wipe out a whole base while blowing me to bits with no risk assumed. Their only merit was a wooden arse and a good book to ride while climbing to stratosphere.
Now I see buffs forced to fly more or less historically (both in terms of altitude and need of escort) and having to develop some skills to actually hit something, or face a more than likely destruction. Still they have teeth to wipe out the careless dead 6 approach and disrupt a single-plane attack. Fair enough in my book.
I know I am not alone if I ask for a more realistic damage model in the bombs side of the game, namely blast radius, appropate effect of this blast radius, and ground damage i.e. craters.
I know I am not alone if I ask for more targets for a proper developement of "carpet bombing" thechnique.
But I see current buff model as a huge step forward from the previous situation in an ongoing process that is far from over.
All I can say is that I like the general direction the buff thinghie is taking.
Oh...anb Buff riders....you have more respect from me than ever before :)
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I know I am not alone if I ask for more targets for a proper developement of "carpet bombing" thechnique.
No.9 already use carpet bombing and 'drop on lead' technique to good effect on strat targets.
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Ya I have played this game since beta. I saw fewer buffs at 35k in that whole time then I see now at 2k in a night. glad you think that is more realistic. Basically the bomber pilots know they can not beat off a single cannon armed attacker in most cases so why climb to even 14k? The defense of bombers is porked in this game. Glad you like it but its porked and I have no doubt it will be fixed. The chance of landing a Lancaster sorti if it is opposed at all is near zero. People home in on you like your in a defensless perk plane. Cause you are nearly defensless and you have three kills to cough up.
I got 3 b17s and 2 lancs and a 205 in one sorti the other night. The b17s where defensless as long as I was reasonably patient. The lancs are just plane defensless. That is why they fly on the deck At least they have narrowed the angles that bad guys will approach when their bellys are in the water
I think I'm something like 20 to 1 kill to death against lancasters this tour. Its broken. Accept it.
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No.9 never fly above maximum recorded ceilings for the bombers we fly which is around 28k for a B17 and 23k for a Lancaster we always aim to reach around 20k, infact a few nights ago we dropped at out lowest ever alt of 11k due to cloud cover and we felt very vunerable as it's not somethign we normally do. I feel that bombers havebecome more fragile since v1.10 and concur that it's sometimes a deathwish to fly Lancasters as oppossed to the more salamanderly B17, one a number of occassions I've lit a con up like a christmas tree and he's flown off like I just tickled him and many times seen my formation of three bombers fall in a single attack from a fighter. I feel something is not quite right.
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just fix the bombers.
it is way to easy to kill 3 at a time as it is.
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Pongo,
I'm glad that you are glad about me being satisfied with the direction Buff modeling is taking in this game.
I'm sorry, though, as I won't accept it is broken whatsoever. If the aim of this game is giving a hint of what WWII combat was, I think current model is, by far, better than the old one.
Beta-player here too, Lone base-porker 35k buff was the regular way before they were fixed, perhaps you should habe been flying higher to notice ;)
Let me bring your attention to a couple words in your sentence: "...as I was reasonably patient..." now we are talking common ground. A lone buff, with no escort, attacked by a lone fighter reasonably skilled should hold almost no chances. A 3 ship B-17 formation DO provide with a reasonable chance to kill the attacker, if the gunner is not sub-par skilled, and if the attacker is not careful about his patterns. I would venture to say that B-26's too. Even Ki-67's if not attacked properly do. So it's far more than WWII buff crews had, If we are to believe what books say. Like it is today, I think it's a fair game concession to buff drivers.
If you want to be able to wipe out a field all by your solitude, and merrilly proceed to kill 3 or 4 fighters per sortie, as it was the normal procedure before the buff fix, then I have to say that we have quite different conceptions about this game.
If you want to completely anihilate a field, a rational not quakeish approach to the problem should suggest that you need, at the very least, quite a bit of human resources to do it. So you either use a jabo raid, or you carefully assemble a Buff attack with escorts, etc. I rather like the second option, just for the beauty of it, although I concede the easier bit to the first one. But I just profoundly depise the ones who defend that would only be fair that a lone plane manned by a single person could possibly wipe out the whole of an airbase, and then the same person can defend his lone plane which, IRL were able to manage with apparent no problem any encounter with single buffs, killing several fighters in the process. Get an escort if you want safetyness.
Current buff model is not porked, at least in my opinion. It has more resemblance for what was the average day in a WWII Buff pilot life. If this is not bread and butter for you, OK. I like this game for this is what it tries to simulate. Each step towards simulation vs. game is a step to keep my subscription alive. It works perfectly both ways.
And I have nothing else to say in this thread.
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Loser- you are in my squad and know we can kill towns in 2 passes. don't play dumb.
airstarts are dumb, and I am in one of the best bomber squads.
I have no problems with the bombers defenses. Last night I was gunner for and got 4 kills with no damage to b17s ( and we were lower than 10k and landing)
I just wish the drone pilots could fly better.
Oh, BTW I have lost over 300 bomber perks becuase drones on the Ar234 cant keep up, especially when using RATO.
out:D :D :D :D :D :D :( ;) :mad: :mad: