Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: weazel on November 27, 2002, 09:24:43 PM
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Was John Fitzgerald Kennedy.
Let the word go forth
From this time and place
To friend and foe alike
That the torch has been passed
To a new generation of Americans.
Let every nation know
Whether it wishes us well or ill
That we shall pay any price - bear any burden
Meet any hardship - support any friend
Oppose any foe to assure the survival
And the success of liberty
Now the trumpet summons us again
Not as a call to bear arms
- though embattled we are
But a call to bear the burden of a long twilight struggle
A struggle against the common enemies of man Tyranny - Poverty - Disease - and War itself
In the long history of the world
Only a few generations have been granted
The role of defending freedom
In the hour of maximum danger
I do not shrink from this responsibility
I welcome it
The Energy - the Faith - the Devotion
Which we bring to this endeavor
Will light our country
And all who serve it
And the glow from that fire
Can truly light the world
And so my fellow Americans
Ask not what your country can do for you
Ask what you can do for your country
My fellow citizens of the world - ask not
What America can do for you - but what together
We can do for the freedom of man
With a good conscience our only sure reward
With history the final judge of our deeds
Let us go forth to lead the land we love - asking His blessing
And his help - but knowing that here on earth
God's work must truly be our own.
Inaugural Address - January 20, 1961
I just watched 13 Days, thank you JFK....and Kevin O'Donnell...without these men where would we be now?
I wonder where all the great men have gone when I look at the contrast compared to those who have followed him.
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Just another slick dishonest crook.
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Slider......you stink. :D
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funkedup has it correct - all those meds he was on, well a lot of them would be used as stopgap meds in those days for syphilis that went too long being untreated after the initial infection, the back brace would have been part of the treatment as well. His dad was a major criminal and he got elected by stealing the election in West VA...not too dissimilar from W, except in W's case the $$$ comes from grandad being a criminal...only good president ever was the one that was not a member of a political party: George Washington (also the only honest president ever).
Teddy Rosevelt was not bad
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Joe got him in, and probably killed
Did he really beat Nixon?
his assassination anointed him, otherwise ....
he did get the moon shot started for whatever that really accomplished in the end cept a distraction from death & suffering of our boys in SE Asia at the time
for change on a Global scale Regan beats JFK hands down
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JFKs jockstrap, he's a prime example of how the presidency has turned into a beauty contest....all spin, no substance.
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Well, he certainly did have some of the better wordsmiths as speechwriters.
Otherwise, just another pol.
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Originally posted by weazel
I just watched 13 Days, thank you JFK....and Kevin O'Donnell...without these men where would we be now?
Not still living down the incredible damage that VietNam did to our Nation internally and internationally?
After all, Lyndon and McNamara were Kennedy choices.
Just a guess.
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Focus on JFKs bad points , just remember he's the reason why your kids aren't wobbling around on three legs and arguing with their 2nd head. ;)
Who would you choose Toad-San?
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Or we could ignore his bad points and just call him the last great American president without any analysis of why that would be so other than a speech he probably didn't write?
And Kennedy saved my children by giving the President's Award for Distinguished Federal Civilian Service to Dr. Kelsey?
Gee, I'm thinking it was Dr. Kelsey who deserves the credit.
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Thalidomide?
About as much as his inaugural address I suppose. I only added it as those are arguably his most famous words.
The 3 legs and 2 heads was in reference to the resultant fallout if a nuclear exchange had occured over the Cuban missle crisis.
Being disingenious isn't your normal style Toad.
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"Last great American President"..?
Still waiting for the first one.
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It was JFK's blundering that got us into the bad situation with the USSR in the first place.
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JFK was the one who hired the idiot McNamara, screwed up the bay of pigs, caused the cuban missle crisis, and almost started world war three.. yeah , he be great
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The last president that controled the press or had its unfailing support. coincidence I think not.
Give me a Carter over a Kennedy any day.
And what was wrong with Ike? He was a great president wasnt he?
Not flashy enought I guess..
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sorry, too many will never forgive Bay of Pigs.
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Originally posted by Pongo
The last president that controled the press or had its unfailing support. coincidence I think not.
Give me a Carter over a Kennedy any day.
And what was wrong with Ike? He was a great president wasnt he?
Not flashy enought I guess..
Ike made the huge mistake of leting nixon near the white house.
Carter seems to have somewhat of a victim of sabotage, and of the mess left over by nixon as well as his own enormous ego, but probably not a bad guy (incidentally carter is one of few recent presidents to actually attempt to cut down the size of federal government, but the other was clinton so that dont put jimmy in much of a great class)
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Originally posted by weazel
Reagan couldn't hold JFKs jockstrap, he's a prime example of how the presidency has turned into a beauty contest....all spin, no substance.
"No arsenal or no weapon in the arsenals of the world is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women."
--First Inaugural Address, January 20, 1981
"The years ahead will be great ones for our country, for the cause of freedom and the spread of civilization. The West will not contain Communism, it will transcend Communism. We will not bother to denounce it, we'll dismiss it as a sad, bizarre chapter in human history whose last pages are even now being written."
---Notre Dame Univ., May 17, 1981
"There is one sign the Soviets can make that would be unmistakable, that would advance dramatically the cause of freedom and peace. General Secretary Gorbachev, if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, if you seek liberalization: Come here to this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!"
---West Berlin, June 12, 1987
Reagan’s policies ended the Cold War... yeah you're right, no substance
:rolleyes:
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Holden McGroin belched
"Reagan’s policies ended the Cold War... yeah you're right, no substance"
Bzzzzttttt....we're sorry, but you should have chosen Door #3 as Door #1 only held the idealized version of world events.
Wow, it never fails that someone will regurgitate the pre-chewed pap they've been fed by the "conservative" right wing.
*All* RoNAlD RaYGunZ did was reap the political bonanza his predecessors worked 40+ years to make.
Anything else is simply a self-serving lie....and you know it.
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Originally posted by Animal
sorry, too many will never forgive Bay of Pigs.
Or the PT-109 incident, though Kennedy acted bravely after the fact. How the hell can a PT boat commander allow his boat to be rammed by a destroyer? Many of the WWII old timers thought he should have received a court martial after that. The popular theory at the time was, the crew was sleeping off a beer drunk, and woke up to the collision.
Les
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The puppet master? Just another of the skeletons in the Bush closet.
1960:
Some investigators believe George Bush spent part of this year and the next in Miami on behalf of the CIA, organizing rightwing exiles for an invasion of Cuba. Is said to have worked with later Iran-Contra figure Felix Rodriguez."
1961:
According to the Realist, CIA official Fletcher Prouty delivers three Navy ships to agents in Guatemala to be used in the Bay of Pigs invasion. Prouty claims he delivered the ships to a CIA agent named George Bush. Agent Bush named the ships the Barbara, Houston and Zapata.
Bay of Pigs invasion fails. Right-wingers blame Kennedy for failure to provide air cover. CIA loses 15 men, another 1100 are imprisoned."
Originally posted by Animal
sorry, too many will never forgive Bay of Pigs.
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LOL Weazel, it was JFK who INVENTED the election-as-beauty-contest.
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JFK added at least 10 years to the cold war IMO . But I think Castro would've liked to have seen him re-elected . I think LBJ was a better pres.
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Originally posted by weazel
Holden McGroin belched
"Reagan’s policies ended the Cold War... yeah you're right, no substance"
Bzzzzttttt....we're sorry, but you should have chosen Door #3 as Door #1 only held the idealized version of world events.
Wow, it never fails that someone will regurgitate the pre-chewed pap they've been fed by the "conservative" right wing.
*All* RoNAlD RaYGunZ did was reap the political bonanza his predecessors worked 40+ years to make.
Anything else is simply a self-serving lie....and you know it.
Reagan rode the coattails of 40 years of political action? Yikes. Reagan looked back at the 40 previous years and turned the entire thing around. It was simple economics. The United States could afford to outspend the USSR and run poor Gorbachev's economy even further into the dirt. When the USSR couldn't afford to play with the US anymore, Gorbachev didn't have a choice but to preach perestroika.
Reagan's policies, and implementations of those policies, brought us out of decades of cold war.
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Originally posted by jonnyb
Reagan rode the coattails of 40 years of political action? Yikes. Reagan looked back at the 40 previous years and turned the entire thing around. It was simple economics. The United States could afford to outspend the USSR and run poor Gorbachev's economy even further into the dirt. When the USSR couldn't afford to play with the US anymore, Gorbachev didn't have a choice but to preach perestroika.
Reagan's policies, and implementations of those policies, brought us out of decades of cold war.
Nice try Jonnyb, and a pretty clear understanding of reality, but weasel has made up his mind, dont bother him with facts. He doesn't realize that detente' was a stalling tactic, and RR abandoned it in favor of a more direct approach.
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My Dad was born in 1911. Woodrow Wilson was President from 1913 - 1921. Then Taft, Harding, Roosevelt, Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, and so forth up to Clinton.
I remember him saying Ronald Reagan was the best President he'd ever seen during all those years.
Les
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Your saying Mr Cue Card spent then into the dirt in a mere 8 years?
PT Barnum would love you guys. :p
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No one even mentions Chicago?
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FDR
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Looking back, There was one Roosevelt that was a great president, but it wasn't Franklyn. Teddy was integrity defined.
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teddy was great... jfk was a murdering incompetent who got elected on his looks and his dads criminal funds and a stolen state.. he prolonged the cold war... got us into the vietnam war and made sure we couldn't get out or win... he allmost turned the world into nuclear ash. He brayed like a donkey when he spoke. total loser. His family continues to be murdering, raping incompetents.... drug addicts and drunks getting by on a failing family fortune and what's left of their looks.. The kennedy's remind us why we would never want royalty.
other than that he wasn't much worse than most..
lazs
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I knew JFK as the man who tripled the US nuclear arsenal and took loads of drugs, at the same time.
Well, one out of two aint bad
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Truth is what your political tribe says it is”
Funked up complains about a beauty contest with JFK but doesn’t mention Ronald Reagan was a Hollywood movie star. I mean the Republicans simply went out and hired a professional actor to play President of the United States!. Oh he could read those lines someone else wrote for him --had tape on the floor so he knew exactly where to put his feet he was a real pro in that regard. The test of time is the mans actual record.
“He made the country feel good about itself”
How do you measure that?.. where is the chart for these vague platitudes
“He ended the cold war”
That’s debatable the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991 3 years after he left office. One could easily assert Geo Bush Sr ended the Soviet Union. The CIA had no inkling the Soviet Union was on the verge of collapse. There was a lot of forces at play there it wasn’t one man who caused the collapse.
True the U.S out spent the Soviet Union but at what cost?.. Any of you remember buying a new car back in the 80s?.. 18% interest rates -- that’s what happens when you act like a teenager with a new credit card run up the deficit three trillion dollars.
I’m willing to bet you guys don’t want to look at some of the things that might make Saint Ronnie a little less great... things like looting the HUD funding, looting the savings and loans. Oh little things like standing in front of the cameras declaring “we don’t negotiate with terrorists” then turn around and sell arms for hostages on the very same day. Taking the proceeds to fund his secret war in central America... without Congress consent.. Let me repeat that.. this is not made up... Without Congress Consent!!!... Even my father before he passed away and was a big fan of Ronnie.. said that was going over the line..
Iran Contra is bad enough never mind opening up the mental hospitals so tens of thousands of mentally ill people can wonder the streets homeless. Or after declaring a war on drugs has his Iran-Contra boys bring in PLANELOADS of cocaine to be distributed in mostly afra-American communities (CIA more or less has already admitted this) Or giving blanket amnesty to ALL illegal aliens then cut funding to border patrols.. Oh yeah, top of the line president.
That Clintoon... You know he LIED!.... he LIED in a court of LAW!!!
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Comparing Clinton to Reagan is like comparing a lucky lucciano to Winston Churchhill.
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Clinton only disgraced the presidency.....Reagan defiled it.
Originally posted by -ammo-
Comparing Clinton to Reagan is like comparing a lucky lucciano to Winston Churchhill.
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this last "great" president was put into power by who?
and was probably killed by who after he and his bro turned on them once they got into power?
pls don't say Oz-wad ....
didn't follow the rule - don't bite the hand the feeds ya - esp if it is an Italian hand
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You guys would never of made it to the moon in the 60s if not for Kennedy .
"we choose to go to the moon before this decade is out "
Might of got there in the 70s though.
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JFK is alot of different things to alot of different people.
To me he is:
Powerful and wealthy family dynasty,
PT-109,
Back injury,
Prescription drugs,
Jackie (wife),
Marylin (mistress, one of several but damned nice choice),
Bay of Pigs,
McNamara,
Moon shot,
LBJ,
VietNam,
Brothers Joe, Robert and Ted.......
Its an even split for me. He was a unique man. Unfortunately he was shot down before his full measure as a President could be taken. Minus that, I tend to consider his presidency a minor failure in the history of the United States.
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Today, should total war ever break out again--no matter how--our two countries would become the primary targets. It is an ironic but accurate fact that the two strongest powers are the two in the most danger of devastation. All we have built, all we have worked for, would be destroyed in the first 24 hours. And even in the cold war, which brings burdens and dangers to so many nations, including this Nation's closest allies--our two countries bear the heaviest burdens. For we are both devoting massive sums of money to weapons that could be better devoted to combating ignorance, poverty, and disease. We are both caught up in a vicious and dangerous cycle in which suspicion on one side breeds suspicion on the other, and new weapons beget counterweapons.
In short, both the United States and its allies, and the Soviet Union and its allies, have a mutually deep interest in a just and genuine peace and in halting the arms race. Agreements to this end are in the interests of the Soviet Union as well as ours--and even the most hostile nations can be relied upon to accept and keep those treaty obligations, and only those treaty obligations, which are in their own interest.
So, let us not be blind to our differences--but let us also direct attention to our common interests and to the means by which those differences can be resolved. And if we cannot end now our differences, at least we can help make the world safe for diversity. For, in the final analysis, our most basic common link is that we all inhabit this small planet. We all breathe the same air. We all cherish our children's future. And we are all mortal.
Tronsky
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Originally posted by weazel
Holden McGroin belched
"Reagan’s policies ended the Cold War... yeah you're right, no substance"
Bzzzzttttt....we're sorry, but you should have chosen Door #3 as Door #1 only held the idealized version of world events.
Wow, it never fails that someone will regurgitate the pre-chewed pap they've been fed by the "conservative" right wing.
*All* RoNAlD RaYGunZ did was reap the political bonanza his predecessors worked 40+ years to make.
Anything else is simply a self-serving lie....and you know it.
you're both wrong.
Gorbachev ended the cold war .
he gave his people a bit of freedom & naturally they eliminated their vindicitve authoritarian government.
i expect he knew what he was doing.
the USA did nothing to end the cold war other than set an example of how life could be better than the tyranny that was the soviet union.
if the soviets had another brehznev instead of good 'ol Gorby, they'd still be a communist dictatorship.
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That's a pretty good argument, and a perspective that probably few Americans have considered.
It will be humorous to watch RaYGunZ groupies try to spin their way out of this one.... :p
Who's first up?
you're both wrong.
Gorbachev ended the cold war .
he gave his people a bit of freedom & naturally they eliminated their vindicitve authoritarian government.
i expect he knew what he was doing.
the USA did nothing to end the cold war other than set an example of how life could be better than the tyranny that was the soviet union.
if the soviets had another brehznev instead of good 'ol Gorby, they'd still be a communist dictatorship.
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I do believe the US spent the USSR into extinction - there was no way they could keep up with our military & economy
why do you think the USSR went for a change? they were going into the crapper ..........
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The Soviet military was keeping pace with ours. evidence of that is the number of foreign airforces that chose MiGs & Sukhois over F-15s & F-16s as well as the rumoured 300 knot russian torpedoes and the soviet equivalents of the SR-71 & Aurora, which we've never heard about, but almost certainly exist. The USSR went for a change the first time (since before stalin) it was given the opportunity to do so.
if it had been the loss of some sort of economic race that caused the commies to lose out, then the collapse could have come under the regime of a hardliner just as likley a reformer (actually more likley, as the genuine reformer is such a rare bird - the US could use one - we havent had one since...have we ever had one? Carter tried & failed...) like Gorbachev, but it didn't.
if it had been the loss of some sort of economic race that caused the commies to lose out, then there would have been some sort major struggle with the state trying to maintain control, as happened in the 1st Russian revolution, but what the hardline party members were able to cobble together was less than halfhearted (a few tanks in Moscow & a sit-in in the legislature. you'd probably get a bigger protest trying in institute a vodka tax)
the ingratitude of the world (especially the Russians & former sattelite states - & the USA) twords Gorby is unfortunate
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Eagler, supposing your argument is right (I think it is a big part of the equation, but not the whole equation), are you suggesting that it was Reagan alone that outspent the Soviets?
I'd think that' it'd be more of a wear and tear over many presidencies, with Reagan adding the final pressure that broke the Soviet Union. His economic policy meant dire straits for many Americans (and others around the world) but in the end, if we assume that either of our versions is true, it was worth it.
I still think he was a puppet and a semi criminal (all the secret wars, selling weapons of mass destruction (or the means to produce them) to Iraq etc etc.
Even so, if we assume that his spending as the final straw for the Soviet Union, it was worth even all that. Probably. Depends on whether Iraq uses som weapons of mass destructions on a US city some day in the near future. And it might even be worth that, too (compared to a nuclear winter).
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By far the most important thing that Kennedy did to solidify his "legacy" was take a bullet in the head.
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if reagan was a puppet (which he was. a genuine babe-in-the-woods. the bork nomination is evidence enough on that) then you cant lay the blame for criminal activites that took place under his watch on him. George Sr on the other hand, ex-CIA boss, couldn't have missed what was going on. if Sr is calling the shots in the W administration (looks like it) then he is effectively in his 4th term, 500 days shy of beating FDR
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so would the world like to the US to have a strong President ie Regan, Bush SR, Bush Jr
or a wimp - harmless ie clinton?
which is better for the global community, as the rest of the world see it?
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Originally posted by koala
By far the most important thing that Kennedy did to solidify his "legacy" was take a bullet in the head.
Sometimes... you just have to sit back and admire the beauty of unfettered cynicism. :D
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Originally posted by Eagler
so would the world like to the US to have a strong President ie Regan, Bush SR, Bush Jr
or a wimp - harmless ie clinton?
which is better for the global community, as the rest of the world see it?
yes, i would prefer an ineffective predisent to an effective one.
our governmemt is idiotic. if it is being run by a nitwit then @least it can obey the hipcratic oath "...1st do no harm..."
a primping pretty boy like jfk is much better than an evil mastermind like nixon or lbj (clinton, btw, is more likley in the later rather than the former category you have put him in). the way elections work, an actual good character winning is so unlikley that the possibility is almost worth ignoring.
the "global community" can take care of itself. every nation has a government whose responibility is to look out for the good of their state
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Would Castro have felt the need for Russian nukes had there been no Kennedy administration sponsored Bay of Pigs?
Had Kennedy's administration supported the Bay of Pigs operation (as he led the invaders to believe he would) with Naval airpower (which was airborne and ready when the T-33's showed up) and naval guns, would Bay of Pigs possibly have succeeded, thus making the Russian nuke issue moot?
So, in the end we were saved by Kennedy from a mess created by?
Yep, you guessed it.
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I always thought the Soviet placement of tactical nukes in Cuba was a direct reaction to the tactical nukes NATO placed in Turkey.
I also thought the Soviet goal was to force the removal of the Turkey nukes by agreeing to remove the nukes from Cuba.
If this scenario is true then the Soviets got what they wanted and forced Kennedy to play their hand. Pretty damned smart but I dont know the truth of it.
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You just pulled the teeth of toads argument, you really are a lefty. :D
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Not exactly. Castro's revolution "succeeded" on New Year's Day of '59. In February of '60 Castro signed an agreement with Russia for large amounts of credit. Eisenhower's administration started the ball rolling on the overthrow of Castro in 1960. Kennedy took office in January of 1961 and enthusiastically continued the work of the Eisenhower administration. By 19 April 1961 the debacle was over and the US was shamed before the entire world.
Now, had Kennedy NOT authorized the Bay of Pigs operation, or had he supported it as he said it would and had it thus succeeded would their have been Russian missiles in Cuba?
I think not; you're welcome to your own opinion.
Had Bay of Pigs succeeded, the Russian missile issues is a non-starter. Lack of US support insured that it would not.
Had it not occurred, I'm doubtful Castro would have let the Russians place missiles in Cuba. He had to know that with Russian nukes in Cuba he was giving up a huge part of his sovereignity to Moscow. He was pretty sharp, credit where credit is due. He knew it was more advantageous for Cuba to continue to play the US off against the USSR. Bay of Pigs made that play impossible for him, though.
Nonethe less, Bay of Pigs was a Kennedy administration mistake of incredible proportions. Who knows if the embarassment they suffered there led directly to involvement in Viet Nam, thinking to restore their image?
Just my opinion.
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kennedy was so full of booze & pills he was probably just continuing to let the CIA run the show.
michael corleone he wasn't
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Originally posted by whgates3
you're both wrong.
Gorbachev ended the cold war .
he gave his people a bit of freedom & naturally they eliminated their vindicitve authoritarian government.
i expect he knew what he was doing.
the USA did nothing to end the cold war other than set an example of how life could be better than the tyranny that was the soviet union.
if the soviets had another brehznev instead of good 'ol Gorby, they'd still be a communist dictatorship.
Saying Gorby ended the cold war is the same as saying Tyson ending the Lennox fight by being knocked out.:)
It is amazing that the USSR kept up militarily with the US for so long. The economy of the Soviets was about the same size as the Netherland's, and with 200,000,000 people to spread it among.
Reagan's increased military budget was the last straw, and Gorby saw that he could not keep up. Reagan did not pitch the whole game, but he did come in for the last innings and he got the save.
Y'all notice I said nothing against JFK...