Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: slimm50 on November 29, 2002, 02:32:29 PM
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OK, thanks guys for your help on my level bombing question. Now I've got another one, concerning Combat Trim: is it advantageous to forego CT in lower-speed turnfighting? I've read posts from some of you who seem to think no trim is better than the auto-trim feature. I'm really interested in your opinions on this, O' August Body of Aerial Aptitude:rolleyes:
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IMHO no to auto-trim during dogfighting.
It tends to 'correct' you as you're flying. not a good idea if you want to ride the edge of the envelope.
OTOH it's great for some things.. I.E. diving on a con in a 109
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Wlfgng, thanks for th input. I see your point about selectively using auto trim.
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I don't fly with combat trim at all. It becomes a big disadvantage when you're low and slow as it tries to compensate. It is also a disadvantage when you're at extremely high speeds where compression is a factor.
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I'd like to add that I don't fly with it on most of the time and I definately make it default to off.
however.. on planes like the 109 that need constant trimming, there are times when it comes in handy.
It'll kill you in a turn fight though.
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From Wlfgng: "on planes like the 109 that need constant trimming..."
Why does the 109, and others, need constant tweaking of th trim? Is it because of the changes in torque as the engine speed changes? Just curious.
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To be honest I'm not plugged into the dynamics of why but I can tell you from experience that the 109 is extremely demanding as far as having to adjust the trim as speeds change.
between that and it's easy compressibility it can be a bear to keep trimmed.
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I've never even tried auto combat trim. I do have 1.5 hats devoted to trim though. I probably use them second only to the view hat. And I do fly the 109 often, and it does need to be trimmed more than anything else. Trim is most important for shooting, IMO.
eskimo
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I use Combat trim all the time.
By default it is on...but when I am diving on a Con I will manually adjust my trim in order to make small corrections on my aim. Then it goes back on (combat trim).
I try not to dog-fight too much anyway..unless in a zeke or a spit, but I rarely fly them. I like bnz flying. 190A5 or P51B (or D).
If I try and dog-fight I usually end up dead....right Eskimo? (That was the first time..in a long time..that I have been roped. Great job last night.)
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I fly with combat trim off.. so i can get that little extra out my plane in turns. I do toggle it on and off to clean up my trims after a series of turns. I kinda think the use of trims in flight is what seperates the elite pilots from the rest of us. I'm seriously thinking of selling my CH 568 Combat fighter stick for the CH Fight Stick so I can have that extra hat switch to devote to trims.
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I dont have enough hands to not use combat trim...might have to put it on the next homemade list..LOL
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I've always used Combat Trim. Only time I manually trim is when I lose a wingtip or I need it to pull out of a dive.
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I always manually trim, It is an advantage IMHO when real slow or real fast. It is very strange at first to get use to, but once you do it for a while it becomes second nature. Good Luck..... Duck
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Urchin, you do this for all AC that you fly?
(thinking maybe something I'm missing)
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I use combat trim for every plane, in every condition, except when i'm missing a wingtip. Tried to use it manually in a dogfight, and it gave me to real advantages.
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combat trim.........
its is set for level flight at full thrrtle...
when u do anything else it is not ideal setting( divebombing-pulling out ogf hispeed dive-slow turnfitghts etc..)
I rarely use it in dogfights,,cuase its not mapperd on my joystik..I dont have enuff buttons...
But i use it almost everytime on the Dive Bom..becuase i enter
I make my rudder straight..
the dive at stall speed ..and with trim set on Combat it makes you side slip a bit becuase of the P-factor it was trying to make up for when ur engine is full thrttle..Which its not when u are diveboming ..this stops ur side slip aproach and ur rkts fire perfectly straight..instead of side ways ...
Using trim correctly in all styles of fighting will help alot!!!!
I also use it to get out of compression..wheich has savewd me many many times....and also caused nme chasing me to die ..many many times...(hitting ground while chasing me in dive)
Love
BiGB
xoxo
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I always use manual trim, adds to the game. In real life you manual trim too, as it makes easy work of a lot of manuvers.
Thorns
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The only time I use the auto-trims is when I'm climbing to cruising altitude and auto-level to trim out at speed. In combat I use manual trim but just to trim the nose because in the P-38, that's really the only trim you have to adjust. I never use combat trim because it's not effective in the P-38. There's only a small window where the combat trim is effective but in most combat situations in the P-38, you won't be in that small window.
Lephturn posted an article on his site about auto-trim in Aces High (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/trim.htm). It covers all the different trim modes and should clear things up about the advantages/disadvantages of auto and manual trim.
Ack-Ack
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Yes, I use Combat Trim in all the planes I fly. I've tried using manual trim, it doesn't really seem to give me any 'advantage'.
Even if the plane is out of trim at low speed, I just use the controls to keep it flying where I want it to fly, doesn't seem to effect much, in my opinion.
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Combat trim compensates for the lack of analogue rotary controls. I don't use it when in combat, except when I'm not turning, at which point I'll flick it on and off to get the plane flying straight.
When I'm flying around the sky, I tend to use autolevel and pitch quite alot.
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Originally posted by Urchin
Yes, I use Combat Trim in all the planes I fly. I've tried using manual trim, it doesn't really seem to give me any 'advantage'.
Even if the plane is out of trim at low speed, I just use the controls to keep it flying where I want it to fly, doesn't seem to effect much, in my opinion.
I don't think using Combat Trim as opposed to manual trim or vice versa gives you an advantage, it really does boil down to personal preferences.
But in some planes, Combat Trim isn't effective and the P-38 is one of those planes. I usually only trim the nose in vertical maneuvers to get the most out of the P-38's vertical performance but that's it. When I first started, I used to sometimes trim the nose down in turn fights but with the auto-retracting flaps and the spins they can cause, I rarely do that anymore.
Ack-Ack
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I never use Combat Trim. I manually adjust trim during combat if needed. I did try Combat Trim in my beloved Typhoon but it would almost always put me into a flat spin during dogfighting, so I haven't bothered with it since.
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Originally posted by Dowding (Work)
Combat trim compensates for the lack of analogue rotary controls.
Just that they were also lacking on the real WW2 fighters.
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ccvi - are you saying that WW2 fighters had no analogue trim controls? I find it hard to believe there were a series of 'notches' or minimum increments.
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S!
I use Combat Trim for cruising and manual for fighting.
IMHO
109 needs alot of active rudder trim. IRL 109 didnt have cockpit rudder trim at all and pilot need give constant feet to keep ball at(in?) center.
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Trim is needed to keep an a/c flying straight under the influence of aerodynamic factors. Torque and propwash affects yaw and roll axis' which means rudder trim and aileron trim is needed to maintain straight flight. Lift of the wing varies with velocity and air density or various airframe configurations (e.g. flaps) thus elevator trim needed to compensate for the pitch axis to maintain straight flight.
In AH since 1.04 there is no aerodynamic advantage in maneuver for using manual trim over combat-trim. Personal feel is another matter (e.g. trimming so that a/c is in straight flight when the stick is centered with flaps deployed etc.).
I always use combat trim. I use manual trim for damage, gentle course corrections, or helping to get out of compression.
Andy Bush at SimHQ has written a nice article on trim with various flight sims in mind:
http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/air_combat/trim/
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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I myself find using manual trim is necessary. To be able to get a turn on the P51 i adjust the trim accordingly, but do to its limitations Manual Trim is only usable for about 60% of the time for me. I use elevators more than i use Ailerons on Manual Trim, since it helps me with the barrels.
It may seem a little difficult once you start trimming, but once you get it down it will become much easier.
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I have always used combat trim...Didn't even think turning it off could help in a turn fite...Thnx for the tip...:)
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I use auto climb and level quite a bit. Helps when grabbin a beer :D
But in a fight I use manual trim, trimming for the dive, for the merge, lead turn etc.
Reprogramed them to the up and down arrow keys, easy to find.
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If I could map the trim controls as an analog device to the rotary wheels on my Cougar's throttle I'd use trim pretty much exclusively.
It might even be somewhat intuitive and natural that way.
As it is, manual trim is a bastardized gamey thing that bears no practical resemblance to real trimming.
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You can see what that "bastardization" leads to, were it any more influential, in the example of IL-2. As a result, in IL-2 people use trim in all the situations where a real life pilot would not... upto the extreme of the so-called "bat-turn" cheat by using elevator trim mapped on a slider axis.
As it is, I think that combat trim, while an artificial/unrealistic device, ironically, adds more to realism than the realistic device of manual trim, which somehow promotes unrealistic use/abuse.
ps) going max trim to minimum trim in a split second, even if it is mapped on a slider axis, is impossible in AH, isn't it?
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Kweassa,
Trim can't be mapped to a slider axis in AH.
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The elevator trim wheel on a C152 can't be turned fast, because only a small part of the wheel is outside the cockpit panel.
If trim wheels on WW2 fighters worked similar this could be simulated easily with centering sliders. If the axis is moved away from the center trim is changed, if it moves towards the center trim is frozen where it is. That way analog trimming is possible, but full deflection changes of the trim imposible.
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Manual trim here.
Trims biggest use in AH is as a fine control. Joysticks do not provide the fine control and feedback of a real aircraft. Trim gives you that very fine light touch you need when your tiffie is pulling through 500 kias in a 45 degree dive.
All my trims are mapped to my HOTAS, its the most important controls to get mapped imho.