Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Revvin on November 29, 2002, 05:25:19 PM
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Can we have the ability to map trim functions to analogue axis please? The HOTAS Cougar and Saitek X36 and X45 have analogue rotaries. You can of course map these as digital axis but analogue trim input such as IL-2 uses works so much better.
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Originally posted by Revvin
Can we have the ability to map trim functions to analogue axis please? The HOTAS Cougar and Saitek X36 and X45 have analogue rotaries. You can of course map these as digital axis but analogue trim input such as IL-2 uses works so much better.
Yes please..................
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Ya, we really could use this! It'd be nice to have a use for my rotaries beyond engine RPM.
And HT, you may trim YOUR plane with buttons, but I don't know of a single ww2 fighter that was. :p
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I concurr with this. It would be so very nice.
Please, please impliment this, Hitech.
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Yes, pleeeeaase :D
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Please HTC?
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Punt for v1.12.:)
Thanks
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puntity punty punt! :D
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pretty craggenplease?
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Yes and no.
If I would implement it, it would be implemented so that there was a rate limiter, so you couldn't spin from one end to the other.
2nd realize that this would require you to use only those trim wheels and have to set trim before every flight. When on auto pilot it would override the trim wheels but once you came off auto the plane would be slamed based on where your trim wheels where.
HiTech
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Eeek, and with my luck, that would be when taking a 262 or 163 off trim and a sudden pitch up...kaboom
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>>When on auto pilot it would override the trim wheels but once you came off auto the plane would be slamed based on where your trim wheels where. <<
I'd be happy with this, given that if i'm hitting auto trim it's either for easy-climb (angle) or cruising flight (level), in which case i'll already have trimmed pretty close to whre the auto will be setting it.
Rate limiter would be perfect (i've been watching IL2 boards with a sort of sad amusement).
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The rate limiter would be a good idea, although personally I wouldn't ram my trim wheels fore and aft and risk wrecking the potentiometers I guess some would.
As for autopilot why not only allow autopilot if the trims wheels are in the neutral position and then any movement shuts off autopilot or trim axis do not register until autopilot turned off?
Thanks for the reply HT
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>>As for autopilot why not only allow autopilot if the trims wheels are in the neutral position and then any movement shuts off autopilot or trim axis do not register until autopilot turned off?<<
Ahh, i thought we were talking about mapping to a rotary axis? in which case there would be no 'neutral' position. (I already have trim mapped to hats on an X45, which is just like using keys.)
Mapping to rotaries for trim (and flaps!) could give more pilot feedback and finer control than using keypresses. It would however mean that any override, such as autopilot, would change the trim position, but obviously not the position of our rotaries.
Speaking only for myself, i'd be happy with the implementation HT described. But-
>>but once you came off auto the plane would be slamed based on where your trim wheels where<<
-could the rate limiter also apply in this situation? this might make life easier and also prevent any possible abuses?
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oh well, the keypresses arent so bad either :rolleyes:
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<>
No, they're fine. But they're not what pilots use to fly their planes, and seeing as many of us now have HOTAS set ups, it can't hurt to ask for other input options.
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Ahh, i thought we were talking about mapping to a rotary axis? in which case there would be no 'neutral' position
The centre of the axis would be neutral, I can't remember if my old X36 had a centre detent but the Cougar does, does'nt the X45 have a centre position on the rotary?
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indeed several have the cougar hotas, but many many more do not.
I am still using a SFS dual throttle, I use one of the throttle's hat switches for trim. Maybe with some experimentation you could work out something simlar with your cougars.
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>>The centre of the axis would be neutral, I can't remember if my old X36 had a centre detent but the Cougar does, does'nt the X45 have a centre position on the rotary?<<
Yes, but trim doesn't have a 'centre' to return to, the way stick or rudders do. The centre detent would simply correspond to the middle of the trim dials, an arbitrary trim speed.
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Crowbaby I think you're missing the point, if trim just returned to centre then it would be no better than what we have now. What I asked for is trim to be mapped to an axis such as IL-2's system where you dial in the trim and then move the trim wheel back again so yes the trim wheel would stay in position as it should giving tactile feedback of your trim.
maxtor> I already have trim mapped to button presses on my Cougar and have mapped such controls to every stick I've owned, CH, Saitek etc but to have trim mapped to an axis gives you tactile feedback to trim position as well as being more intuitive IMHO than hitting a button a few times. Many sticks now have analogue rotary axis such as the X36 (quite an old stick now) the X45 (the X36 replacement) both of which are budget sticks available for under £100 so it's not just expensive sticks like the Cougar that would benefit. From what I've read of the hardware forums (probably the forum I read most here) there are not only many Cougar owners but also a very large number using X36's or X45's so there are many users who would benefit should HTC decide to implement this suggestion.
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Sorry, i really must be missing the point. The way i saw it was:
I have a rotary with a range from X at one end to Y at the other. There is a detent in the centre. The rotary stays where i put it. Now, i assumed that if we could map trim to rotaries, i could have full up elevator trim at X, and full down at Y, with the detent representing an arbitrary point in the middle - basically the centre point on the trim needle dial we have at the moment. On a rotary this would give a physical feedback for trim setting, and could allow us much finer adjustment.
>>where you dial in the trim and then move the trim wheel back again<<
I don't understand this, what am i missing? If we 'bounce' a rotary to change trim, returning it to the centre to stop our input, isn't this much the same as the key control we have now?
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The way you explain trim can be done right now, it's only emulating pressing a button. I have my rotaries mapped as digital inputs so it works as follows:
10% around centre is neutral but moving it up or down past this central 10% region makes a constant keypress engaging trim buttons.
If you had an analogue input for trim you could rotate the trim 2%, 10% or whatever you felt like and it would input 2% or 10% trim or however far you moved the trim wheel.
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>>If you had an analogue input for trim you could rotate the trim 2%, 10% or whatever you felt like and it would input 2% or 10% trim or however far you moved the trim wheel.<<
My fault for not expressing myself clearly : what you have said here is exactly what i was talking about.
So, if the trim rotary goes from 1%-100% (i.e. full up to full down) then i don't follow you when you talk about the 'centre' of the axis being 'neutral' - there is no such thing as neutral input on an analogue dial: it's always at a 'setting' somewhere from 1-100%. This is true for rotaries on our joysticks and true for trim dials on real planes. There is a central point - but it corresponds to a certain trim setting.
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50< positive trim
50% neutral
50> negative trim
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There is a centre point you're just moving it + or - up and down the axis so the central detent will give you no trim input where as leaving the rotary in any position up or down will give you a percentage of that movement. If you don't understand how it works or how it can work try downloading the IL-2 demo and see how they do it.
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Originally posted by hitech
Yes and no.
If I would implement it, it would be implemented so that there was a rate limiter, so you couldn't spin from one end to the other.
2nd realize that this would require you to use only those trim wheels and have to set trim before every flight. When on auto pilot it would override the trim wheels but once you came off auto the plane would be slamed based on where your trim wheels where.
HiTech
Basically ....... heavily damped so the rate of trim change was equivalent to what a pilot could accomplish...........this seems very sensible.
If we choose auto then it is in auto the moment we change a trim setting on the rotary it moves to the new setting at a damped rate.
What rate of change does the auto combat trim functions run at now? they are not instant are they?
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I use the wheel button in the wingman strike force 3d for elevator trim. It works for me.
As I turn the wheel foward or backward each click moves the elevator trim up or down one click.
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This is something I would really like to have. I think it would make trimming manually much more intuitive.
des
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OK - i must be really dumb. My last attempt to explain myself and then i'll just shut up.
Rotary= full clockwise-----------centre----------full anticlockwise
Trim= full up-------------------------------------full down
AoA= high---------------------------------------low
Speed= low----------------------------------------high
Analogue rotary, sure it has a centre detent, similar to the 'trim neutral' setting on some planes, but that still represents an input, a certain trim setting and correspondingly, a certain speed. <> Surely the centre point gives the same amount of input as anywhere else? The rotary, wherever it is, determines the trim setting: hence HT's comments with regard to auto. So this doesn't make sense to me:
<> why try to go from the centre detent into and out of auto? why not trim as close as you can get first so that the 'jump' when you come out of auto is lessened?
And i still don't understand:
<> Why move the trim wheel back? why not leave it at the setting you require? isn't this the point of having analogue rotaries after all?
and this is not what i meant at all:
<>
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Originally posted by crowbaby
OK - i must be really dumb. My last attempt to explain myself and then i'll just shut up.
Rotary= full clockwise-----------centre----------full anticlockwise
Trim= full up-------------------------------------full down
AoA= high---------------------------------------low
Speed= low----------------------------------------high
Analogue rotary, sure it has a centre detent, similar to the 'trim neutral' setting on some planes, but that still represents an input,
I think selecting auto would over ride the trim pots.............
re the centre detent when calibrating we would move both pots thru their ranges then leave them at the centre detent to show the out put at that position............(as we do with pitch and roll and rudder stuff)
The X45 has two rotaries (which I would use to trim rudder and elevator) but if like me you have replaced the rudder rocker with pedals then it would also be neat to put aeleron trim onto that. (if your AC supported it.............many had just trim tabs)
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Your stick or throttle when centred gives an output but you calibrate it and the sim knows that if the stick is centred then the controls do not operate one way or the other. The same goes for the analogue rotaries they are calibrated and the entre position shows neutral trim, no positive trim no negative trim but as you move through the rotaries range you keep adding a little more trim, to take that off you rotate the rotary the other way. If autopilot is going to cause a problem then set it so the trims have to be in their centre position ie no trim input, centre not up down left or right just centred like your joystick.
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<>
But rotaries are not like the joystick. The joystick is sprung so that it returns to the centre when you let go off it (which is where we got all these trim problems from in the first place). The whole point of rotaries is that they stay where you leave them. You set your rotary to whatever trim position you want and you leave it there. (Griego seems to be lucky enough to have a stick which lets him do this already)
If we can only go into auto from a centre position on our rotary that would mean we could only go into auto when trimmed for whatever speed that represented, which i think would be a pain in the ass. I'd rather see a situation where if you come out of auto, the trim will return (at a realistic rate) to whatever trim setting your rotary/dial is at.
*Picture edited to reflect post below as well*
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O.k Revvin, just re-read all your posts from the beginning, I think I understand you now.
It seems that you want the rotary mapped as a rocker switch: where deflecting in either direction would cause trim tabs to move in that direction, then returning it to the detent would cease moving them.
-To me this isn't much different to a key input, albeit might give finer control. In fact, I already have hats on my X45 doing what you seem to suggest, a nudge of the hat is a keypress, holding it down a series of keypresses. When i let go the hat, it returns to centre, no more input.
-There'd be no feedback from the rotary to tell you where your trim is set. To me this is one of the biggest advantage sof a rotary.
-There'd also be no advantage taken of the full range of the rotary. If you deflect it all the way as opposed to a little way, the speed of trim change will be the same (as HT points out). In fact there would be a disadvantage as you'd have further to turn it back to cease the input.
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It seems that you want the rotary mapped as a rocker switch: where deflecting in either direction would cause trim tabs to move in that direction, then returning it to the detent would cease moving them.
No you've read it completely the opposite way that's not what I wanted at all.
There'd also be no advantage taken of the full range of the rotary. If you deflect it all the way as opposed to a little way, the speed of trim change will be the same (as HT points out). In fact there would be a disadvantage as you'd have further to turn it back to cease the input.
The advantage is it being a little more realistic and intuitive, without the need to look at the cockpit I can tell how much trim I have because I can feel how far the rotary is turned.
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I agree with crowbaby
The rotary pots should be used as a trim wheel would be used in an aircraft............. but damped as HT stated.
You can zone the pots now (under the profiler) to act as revvin suggests.
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>>No you've read it completely the opposite way that's not what I wanted at all. <<
I'm genuinely sorry, as i didn't mean to put words in your mouth. However, if option No.2 (from the pic above) is what both of us want, then i still don't understand the various lines i've quoted from your posts.
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Revvin: I think the confusion comes in that the "Center of the axis would be neutral" is an imposiblity. Trim dosn't work that way, there would be a different neutral position for each speed, hence the center postion has to change for each speed.
HiTech
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I would be happy if the center position on the rotary knob was simply at the center of the trim indicator slider graphic.
As it is I have to be very, very careful about how fast I rotate the rotary knobs as they don't send enough key strokes if I rotate them too fast. That, and they get out of position, so to speak.
I would really like to simply be able to map the trim functions to some of my analog axis.
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Originally posted by Karnak
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I would really like to simply be able to map the trim functions to some of my analog axis.
Yup and damp it as HT says
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Originally posted by hitech
Yes and no.
If I would implement it, it would be implemented so that there was a rate limiter, so you couldn't spin from one end to the other.
2nd realize that this would require you to use only those trim wheels and have to set trim before every flight. When on auto pilot it would override the trim wheels but once you came off auto the plane would be slamed based on where your trim wheels where.
HiTech
Hiya HT! No problem with me. That is the way RPMs work now anyway.
If I set my engine RPM low and then Engage WEP, the RPMs automatically goes to maximum. When WEP is disabled, RPM goes back to the trim-wheel setting.
Personally, I would LOVE to see this implemented because it would allow me to complete my cockpit design to use actual trim-wheels rather than switches.
Please implement. Thanks :)
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ok, here is a question related to using the rotaries..
I don't have rudder pedals, so on my cougar, I have the range knob configured as an axis and have the rudders mapped to that. It works great, expect when I'm in the bombsite. I get absolutely no input from it (i.e, can't steer with it). The rudders work if I'm in a turret tho.
Does anyone have any idea why it works in the turret and not in the bombsite?
TIA
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its always like that
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Originally posted by crowbaby
I'm genuinely sorry, as i didn't mean to put words in your mouth. However, if option No.2 (from the pic above) is what both of us want, then i still don't understand the various lines i've quoted from your posts. [/B]
Hehe I think we've just been confusing each other, I struggled to try and describe it to you but the basis of what I wanted can be done in IL-2 have you got the sim or perhaps seen the demo? it would explain what I would like in AH better than my words perhaps..hell and English is suppossed to be our native language :)
Hitech> I'm not quite sure what you mean, there is a maximum and minimum level or trim yes? is there not a trim settign where there is neither positive or negative trim? would this be the centre of the rotary axis? this is the way it works in IL-2 as you slowly dial more trim in as speed increases. Perhaps I need to take some flying lessons :)
Sorry for the delay in replying, been working away from home for two days without net access (hell!)
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Not true. I could steer the buff from the bomesite when I had the rudders mapped to the keyboard. However, I didn't have the resolution that I have now. A key press was a percentage of the total rudder travel (a rather large percenage at that). With the rotary, I can adjust the rudder in very fine increments which is why I'm using it in this fashion. Just can't steer the buff from the bombsite anymore.
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Revin picture this, your trimed for 150 with the dial, now go on auto angle to 450 and never turn the dial. Come off auto, what will happen? Not saying I won't implement it, just showing some things that will happen when using it.
HiTech
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why cant ya add a center trim button(s) that center trim. Then trim doesnt react to the the nob until its moved again.
like auto level stays in auto level until you move the stick.
Trim stays centered until you move the trim key/nob.
This way when you come out of auto trim it doesnt jump instantly to the nob position.
Anyway I think trim works well in AH far better then il2 or WBs.
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Hitech> I appreciate that HT, I tried this in IL-2 (sorry to keep bringign this game up but its the one I've used analogue trim in) and there have been problems with trim being input and then autopilot being switched off. Could you not perhaps alter the auto pilot so it won't engage if any trim is input (perhaps just to elevator trim?) in the same way that you could not engage autopilot if you are moving the joystick? to engage autopilot you would first have to dial out the elevator trim (or both trims) I know you would be making the aircraft temporarily not as stable as it was with trim but would this be a problem as you would be doing this to engage autopilot anyway?
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Originally posted by hitech
Revin picture this, your trimed for 150 with the dial, now go on auto angle to 450 and never turn the dial. Come off auto, what will happen? Not saying I won't implement it, just showing some things that will happen when using it.
HiTech
Could you implement a damping slider on the set up window like other inputs................?
Seems to me that coming out of auto level/angle/speed by js action should return you to combat trim, you then leave combat trim by adjusting the rotary or switching it off.........is this new?
Leaving auto state directly by switch or adjustment would be limited by the rate of trim change which is set by the damper..........
(its too fast now! we can trim out of a compression dive or trim for high speed high g instantanious turn in mid combat!)
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<>
NP, I can often confuse myself all on my own, it's nice to have someone join in occasionally :)
Don't want to continue the muddle, but
<>
I think it would be more intuitive, and interrupt smooth flight less, if:
-we trim manually to whatever point we want.
-then we hit auto pilot.
-autopilot overrides the rotary and trims us away to where it wants us, at a reasonable speed of trim change, decided by HT (or even Tilt's slider idea).
-then when we turn off autopilot (With a button preferably) control of trim defaults back to the rotary.
-As far as the trim system is concerned, it's as if we'd suddenly moved the rotary, so it returns to where we've set it, at a reasonable speed. We can even start moving the rotary at this stage, and meet it half way, or push past where auto had it.
-All the system is doing is moving trim at it's 'reasonable rate of change' to wherever the controls are set, be it rotary or Autopilot.