Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: H. Godwineson on December 02, 2002, 10:41:34 AM
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Robert King, a 50 year old Florida Boy Scout leader has been charged with exposing himself to five young scouts and with showing them gay pornographic photographs. The incidents occurred at King's home, where he had invited the five young boys, between the ages of 10 and 13, to help him decorate a Christmas float.
Do you guys remember the hullabaloo that erupted a couple of years ago when the Boy Scouts refused to change their rules to allow gays to serve as Scout Masters. In one television special on the subject two mothers who were interviewed vowed to pull their young (very young) sons out of the scouts because of their "bias" against gays.
I wondered at the time if it was possible that these mothers were so afraid of being labeled politically incorrect that they were willing to ignore the risks to their children? Do they put their brains in neutral when discussing matters of this nature?
While King is married, I suspect he may be a closet homosexual because of the nature of the photographs that he showed to these children.
What are your thoughts?
Regards, Shuckins
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The boy scouts are a private organization.
Does this really count as a gay man causing problems though?
This is more like child molestation. Just cause you gay does not mean your going to push your gayness on kids?
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Personally, I don't think Men should be allowed in a Girls High school shower room, nor do I believe that Gay men should be involved in the Boy Scouts.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Personally, I don't think Men should be allowed in a Girls High school shower room, nor do I believe that Gay men should be involved in the Boy Scouts.
LOL... did your scout master ever see you naked Rip? Mine sure as hell didn't!
Are you saying that a man cannot coach High School Girls Basketball? I think you failed to think this one through.
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There are male coaches for girls' high school sports, usually because the men have a particular background in the sport, such as years of experience or accomplishment in the sport - they literally are "the best man for the job."
But would you want a male to be a Girl Scout troop master? Would you want a woman to be a Boy Scout troop master? The nature of these activities - activities where boys learn to be men - almost require a same-sex leadership role. Girls learn to be empowered as a woman by learning from a woman.
Its not about being homophobic, its about being the best man for the job - the job of teaching boys to be men and girls to be women.
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Okay, A girl leading boy scouts is not my idea of Boy scout leadership. Neither is a gay IMO. I don't have a problem with Gay men, I just have a problem with them with my kids
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Not even Sigourney Weaver should lead a Boy Scout troop into the wilderness. Well, maybe the older boys wouldn't mind so much. :P
Then again, would you want Charles Nelson Reiley to guide your young daughters into their blossoming womanhood?
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My guess is that about 10% of you had scoutmasters that were gay.
And teachers and coaches and mentors and community leaders. I would also guess that this made absolutely no difference because you had no clue.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
My guess is that about 10% of you had scoutmasters that were gay.
And teachers and coaches and mentors and community leaders. I would also guess that this made absolutely no difference because you had no clue.
Sorry, didn't grow up in California :D:D
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A paedophile is sexually attracted to children. It has nothing to do with homosexuality or heterosexuality.
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Or Florida, for that matter...:D:D
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At about the same time that the Gay Scout Master controversy was heating up the media, there was an incident involving a Scout Master here in the state of Arkansas.
It turns out he had been sexually molesting members of his troop for more than 20 years. He played mind games with them and convinced them that these activities were not only not bad but were also something that they did not need to tell their parents. So convincing was he that some of these former scouts allowed THEIR sons to enroll in his scout troop.
This event briefly made the national headlines. Briefly. The media was more interested in the case involving the young gay man who was beaten up and then tied to a fence post, eventually dieing of hypothermia.
Again, on some issues, it seems, people put their brains in neutral before rendering an opinion.
Regards, Shuckins
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How would you classify a paedophile who molests only young boys?
Or a paedophile who molests only young girls?
Defenders of gay rights consistently draw a distinction between the paedophile and homosexuality. But I fail to see a clear distinction. Can we not just say that a paedophile who preys on the younger members of a single sex is a homosexual who prefers younger partners? Or is that too insensitive?
Shuckins
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Of course you can H. Godwinson. The problem comes when people see the words homosexual and paedophile in the same sentence when it comes to child molestation. Or only the word homosexual.
It's important for people to realise that paedophilia is the problem, not homosexuality.
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This event briefly made the national headlines. Briefly. The media was more interested in the case involving the young gay man who was beaten up and then tied to a fence post, eventually dieing of hypothermia.
Kinda trivializing the fact that he suffered a fractured skull from a massive blow to the head which compressed the skull into his brain. He also had an injured brain stem, which controls the body's vital functions.
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Having chlidren sleep in one room with adults that can be sexually attracted to them is against morals and traditions of most societies - and with a good reason. Of ccourse our definition of children includes 12+ year-olds who can be sexually developed and quite intentionally provocative and experimental.
There are quite a lot of situations where people/parents expect sexual privacy - not having people around who can be sexually attracted to them or their children.
Supposedely strictly gay man would be safe with girls or a lesbian with boys. Of course children or even adults may have problems understanding and dealing with stereotypes - and while someone's homosexuality may prevent him/her from being attracted to a person, it does not prevent the person from being attracted to or uncomfortable in from of such homosexual.
miko
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isn't there a "pound the crap outa the paedophile" merit badge they can now work on?
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Organizations like the Boy Scouts draw pedophiles to them, and they always have. If you've been in Boy Scouts (like I have), odds are one of the scoutmasters you encountered at some point was a pedophile. And odds are that guy would have been married and professedly heterosexual.
Odds are also pretty good that an openly gay man is not a pedophile. The person has stated a preference, and that's for adults. He's come to terms with his sexuality, and declared it openly, taking the very real risk that some neanderthals will torture him to death because of it. I wouldn't worry about that guy screwing your kids.
The argument that:
"Those who commit sexual acts with persons of the same sex are homosexuals. Pedophile scoutmasters are therefore homosexuals. Therefore, we should outlaw professed homosexuals from the boy scouts."
Makes about as much sense as:
"Those who use firearms are gun owners. Criminals who shoot cops are therefore gun owners. Therefore, we should deny citizenship to all registered gun owners."
Do you guys think that hunting game is the cause of violent crime? Then what does sleeping with adult men have to do with the cause of abusing small children?
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As far as drawing a line between homosexuality and pedophilia, well we draw a line between normal heterosexuals and pedophiles, don't we? Pedophiles may pick members of either sex, and we can classify their societally unacceptable behaviour accordingly.
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Originally posted by H. Godwineson
Robert King, a 50 year old Florida Boy Scout leader has been charged with exposing himself to five young scouts and with showing them gay pornographic photographs.
Would it have been less bad if he had showed them heterosexual pornographic photographs?
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Those of you who think the universe revolves around you need not apply for membership in the Boy Scouts. They don't need your kind around here!
===From Yahoo News via CBS=========
Atheist Eagle Scout Faces Expulsion
PORT ORCHARD, Wash., Oct. 31, 2002
(AP) Eagle Scout Darrell Lambert has earned 37 merit badges, worked more than 1,000 hours of community service and helps lead a Boy Scout troop in his hometown.
But the 19-year-old has another distinction that may lead to his removal from the Boy Scouts: He's an atheist.
Lambert was given roughly a week by the Boy Scouts' regional executive to declare belief in a supreme being and comply with Boy Scout policy, or quit the Scouts. The official and Lambert were to talk again this week regarding Lambert's answer, although a definite date hadn't been set.
"We've asked him to search his heart, to confer with family members, to give this great thought," Brad Farmer, the Scout executive of the Chief Seattle Council of the Boy Scouts, told The Sun of Bremerton. "If he says he's an avowed atheist, he does not meet the standards of membership."
On membership applications, Boy Scouts and adult leaders must say they recognize some higher power, not necessarily religious. "Mother Nature would be acceptable," Farmer said.
As a private organization, the Boy Scouts are permitted to exclude certain people from membership. The organization bans gays and atheists.
Lambert, who has been a Scout since he was 9, said he won't profess a belief he doesn't feel, saying it amounts to a lie. "I wouldn't be a good Scout then, would I?"
The issue arose about three weeks ago when Lambert got into an argument with a Scout leader at a Boy Scout leadership training seminar over whether atheists should be expelled from the organization. Farmer's office soon contacted him to talk about his nonbelief.
Lambert disclosed his atheism to Scout leaders overseeing his Eagle Scout application last year, but still received the award.
The issue has surfaced before. In 1998, 16-year-old twins Michael and William Randall, who refused to take an oath to God, were awarded Eagle badges after a seven-year legal fight with the Orange County, Calif., council. Would a belief in the legal system as a higher power meet the BSA requirements?
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ccvi,
Isn't it bad enough as it is?
Until 30 years ago, the majority of Americans considered homosexuality to be a form of sexual deviancy. Hardly anyone would have questioned the wisdom of banning them from positions of authority over children.
The world turns. Rightly or wrongly, many Americans, raised on the dogma of diversity, now see no problem in allowing homosexuals to be school teachers or scout masters.
I'm not advocating carrying torches through the streets at night to hunt down and lynch gays. If they wish to live that sort of life-style, more power to them. What I am questioning is the notion held by many that there is nothing wrong with allowing them to be placed in positions of influence over our children.
Regards, Shuckins
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The Boy Scouts of America was founded by religious organizations. The rules of conduct were established to reinforce certain Christian principles. Membership is purely voluntary. All prospective Scout Masters are familiar with these principles. If they do not agree with them or wish to abide by them, then they should find another organization where they can interact with children. The atheist scout master knew this from the beginning. His complaints sound like an attempt to garner a little recognition for himself. Sorry if I seem to be judgmental. I simply think that individuals have no right to complain about the rules of membership in an organization that they are not required to join. This case is comparable to an African-American complaining about the membership regulations of the Ku Klux Klan.
Regards, Shuckins
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How did the Christmas float turn out?
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Originally posted by H. Godwineson
How would you classify a paedophile who molests only young boys?
as someone who hates little boys and wants to voilate them
Originally posted by H. Godwineson
Or a paedophile who molests only young girls?
someone who hates little girls and wants to violate them.
Defenders of gay rights consistently draw a distinction between the paedophile and homosexuality. But I fail to see a clear distinction. Can we not just say that a paedophile who preys on the younger members of a single sex is a homosexual who prefers younger partners? Or is that too insensitive?
Shuckins [/B]
No we can say that as long as we classify pedophile who preys on children of the opposite sex as a hetero who prefers younger partners.
which makes pedophilia just folks who like younger partners..
nah I don't see that as insensitive in the least.
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does that mean they are canceling the "Deliverance" canoe trip?
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it was a little flamboyant
Originally posted by blur
How did the Christmas float turn out?
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Why are there people suggesting that sexual orientation makes no difference in this case? I was a Scout - had no homo leader, no homo members, and no homo parents. We fished, hunted, camped, beat eachother up, and on those "non-sanctioned" weekend trips we'd get an $8 case of beer, find a pack of cigarettes somewhere, and get out ol' Tony's father's porn (who was the scout master). This, afterall, is what makes boys men. ;)
I think the situation would be drasticly altered if the Penthouse magazines were replaced with Pillow Biter Illustrated and our Scout Master encouraged us to perform the acts on page 37 and not tell mommy and daddy.
Lets not allow PC to cloud our vision here folks... no gays in Boy Scouts - period. Heterosexual leaders volunteer for the kids, homosexual leaders volunteer for themselves.
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Shuckins, I'd be equally worried about a sadomachocist having influence on my children. Or a heterosexual couple that indulge in animal or poop sex.
Straight kinky sex might be far worse (judging by Christian moral standards) than normal vanilla gay sex. So if you think gay sex is abhorrent (my view), just know that the hetoersexual man or woman who's the scout leader and is so pleasant to talk with might be a kinky sunufabeeatch in bed, excrementing over his partner for kicks.
I know of plenty of heterosexual couples who enjoy anal and oral sex - the very act as gay couples participate in. And (scary as this thought is) if someone was blindfolded and then given 10 partners, five of each gender, and then given access to their anal and oral orifices, I'd say that he or she would get the gender wrong more than once.
So the physical sensation would be very similar. Which begs the question what's the big deal with homosexuality? The answer: there ain't one. Equating homosexuailty with child molestation is as stupid as equating hunting with murders comitted with guns in an inner city - as Dinger so eloquently pointed out. I'd like to see his arguments rebutted, as one will have to build straw mans to do so. And fail.
Male homosexuality is a practice I personally find disgusting, but that is my personal preferences. Female homosexuality means absolutely nothing to me, although I know a lot of men who find male homosexuality disgusting find female homosexuality sexually titillating.
And I am intelligent enough to see that ones sexual preference (one way or another) does not automatically make one a child molester.
Regarding temptations; I am tempted daily to grab a womans bellybutton or tits - but I don't. The average person, homosexual or heterosexual, doesn't fall for the temptation.
Having a heterosexual scout master is no guarantee that he is not a child molester - statistically, I'd say that there's more heterosexual child molesters per 1000 people than there are homosexual ones.
The Boy Scouts is a private organisation and is thus priveledged to include or exclude people as they see fit - to a degree. And it doesn't work as society in general. The Boy Scouts may not discriminate based on race - but they may discriminate based on sexuality, spiritual beliefs and speech - i.e they far from mirror the democratic values. However, this is their prerogative, and they're entitled to hold the opinion that what they do is very 'American and democratic', despite evidence against this. Gays and atheists do not have a 'right' to be members - it's a (questionable?)priviledge.
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Lets not allow PC to cloud our vision here folks... no gays in Boy Scouts - period. Heterosexual leaders volunteer for the kids, homosexual leaders volunteer for themselves.
Ya, no blacks or jews either! The jews just do it to get closer to the kids parents money.
Your such an idiot Saurdaukar, you have no idea what you are talking about.
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Some of those who espouse tolerance and diversity castigate conservatives and fundamentalists for trying to "foist their versions of morality on the rest of society."
But aren't those of you who insist that the Boy Scouts are wrong and should change their standards doing the same thing...attempting to foist your own standards of morality on society?
Regards, Shuckins
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Guy 1 - "I want to murder you"
Guy 2 - "Don't murder me"
Guy 1 - "Don't foist your versions of morality on me."
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How many of you were Boy Scouts?
I was Order of the Arrow and a Scout for many years. I can honestly say I never once discussed sex with my scout master, or ever saw him having sex with his partner of choice (his wife I assume).
I did however sit around the campfire with my buds talking for hours about the girls in school that gave us the chubby fits.
And as long as the BSA takes federal money of any kind they are subject to antidiscrimination laws.
A person's sexual orientation has no bearing on his or her ability to teach the skills in scouting.
From Memory:
A Scout is
Trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent.
Don't see anything a gay scoutmaster can't teach.
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'Obedient' and 'reverent' could be to God and his laws, in which case homosexuality is sort of out.
As are all other sins, which as far as I can tell are just as bad. :)
Shuckins, even though I find the Boy Scouts discrimination oldfashioned and a little scary due to the phobia/ignorance, I find that they're entitled to accept/decline/remove individuals as they see fit. It's akin to that golf club that hosts the Masters - they're entitled to have an all male club.
If we weren't allowed to decide who to have in our own organisation, I wonder what our society would look like.
Pretty soon you'd be forced to have at least one member of each race as a close friend, as well as all handicapped people and whatever person PCness is covering for.
Edit: the minority foist their version unto the majority. When the majority do the same, they're just trying to address the 'inaccuracies of the minorities'.
Sucks to be a minority :D
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midnight Target: Don't see anything a gay scoutmaster can't teach.
What about scoutmistress? Would you mind either sharing the tent with your boy? Some people do.
Even soldiers in US army somtimes desire sexual privacy - when they can be sure no one around them finds them sexually attractive, like in the shower or sleeping barracks. That's why many oppose to co-ed barracks or gays in the military. Of course US soldiers are probably oversensitive wussies, unlike scouts or some of their parents...
miko
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Ya, no blacks or jews either! The jews just do it to get closer to the kids parents money.
Your such an idiot Saurdaukar, you have no idea what you are talking about.
See? This is the kind of attitute Im talking about. What do blacks and Jews have to do with the argument? I dont supose youre heterosexually challenged Thrawn?
The issue here is not the blanket statement "Gays are bad people." But instead you must focus on the fact that anyone who encourages youth's to engage in inappropriate sexual conduct should NOT be in a Scout Master position. Pediphiles are people you would NOT want in this position because they volunteer for their own benifit. Some gays would also volunteer for their own benifit. Not all mind you, but I wouldnt be willing to take that chance.
Its really simple - the Boy Scouts are an organization for instilling age old values of leadership, trust, integrity, and bearing. To allow a homosexual, who obviously has different moral/ethical values, to take a hand in the growth of these boys is asking for trouble.
Would a lesbian be a proper role model for Girl Scouts? No. Absolutely not - and its no different here. There are certain people you want in certain positions - a gay as a Boy Scout Master is NOT one of them.
Next baseless accusation?
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Never "shared a tent" or a shower with the scoutmaster either! Sheesh! Which scout troop were you guys in?
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
See? This is the kind of attitute Im talking about. What do blacks and Jews have to do with the argument? I dont supose youre heterosexually challenged Thrawn?
The issue here is not the blanket statement "Gays are bad people." But instead you must focus on the fact that anyone who encourages youth's to engage in inappropriate sexual conduct should NOT be in a Scout Master position. Pediphiles are people you would NOT want in this position because they volunteer for their own benifit. Some gays would also volunteer for their own benifit. Not all mind you, but I wouldnt be willing to take that chance.
Its really simple - the Boy Scouts are an organization for instilling age old values of leadership, trust, integrity, and bearing. To allow a homosexual, who obviously has different moral/ethical values, to take a hand in the growth of these boys is asking for trouble.
Would a lesbian be a proper role model for Girl Scouts? No. Absolutely not - and its no different here. There are certain people you want in certain positions - a gay as a Boy Scout Master is NOT one of them.
Next baseless accusation?
Assuming you are heterosexual Saurdaukar, could YOU be trusted in a tent full of 12 year old girls? 11 year old? 10 year old? If not, you are one sick SOB, if you can be trusted then you have no point.
Homosexuals aren't out recruiting boy scouts to fill their ranks. They are simply born that way and other than their sexual preference are no different than you and I. Like I said, you have probably met and have been taught or coached by at least one homosexual in your lifetime, and you probably don't even know it.
I didn't learn to like girls from my scoutmaster ... did you?
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The issue here is not the blanket statement "Gays are bad people." But instead you must focus on the fact that anyone who encourages youth's to engage in inappropriate sexual conduct should NOT be in a Scout Master position.
This statement addresses both homosexuals and heterosexuals. Hterosexuals have drives/opinions etc just as homosexuals and might encourage youths to engage i...
Its really simple - the Boy Scouts are an organization for instilling age old values of leadership, trust, integrity, and bearing. To allow a homosexual, who obviously has different moral/ethical values, to take a hand in the growth of these boys is asking for trouble.
Logical fallacy. You state something is obvious when it's not. Your assertion that homosexuals have different moral/ethical values is questionable at best. They have a different sexual preference, but they might have the same ethical and moral values (with sexual choice being different) as heterosexuals.
You're suggesting that homosexuals cannot be ethical leaders. I'd like to know the scientific reason as to why it is. While you're at it, can you convince me that a heterosexual who likes oral sex (God didn't create a mouth to give sexual pleasure yadda ydaa argument) can be an ethical leader?
You'll have to do some sociological studies, and there's really some doubt whether those can be called scientific.
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What's the similarity?
Blacks and jews have lived with prejudice and oppression. The same kind you meet homosexuals with.
"Its really simple - the Boy Scouts are an organization for instilling age old values of leadership, trust, integrity, and bearing. "
Homosexuals can't be or teach these values? Why? Because they are sexually attracted to members of the same sex? What a stuipid thing to imply.
"I dont supose youre heterosexually challenged Thrawn? "
What if I am gay?
"Would a lesbian be a proper role model for Girl Scouts? No. Absolutely not - and its no different here. There are certain people you want in certain positions - a gay as a Boy Scout Master is NOT one of them. "
roadkill. You are trying to marginalise gays because they give you the wilies. Immoral behaviour? Your the one that is displaying ignorance and predudice. I know homosexuals that are twice the person you are and would have no problem with them being my daughter scout leader.
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Nope. I am not displaying ignorance or predudice. I am displaying logical thought - you are blinded by your own sick version of reality. If you cant understand the merits of my view, you most likely never will, so Ill spare a second explanation. In the end there are things that simply dont mix.
In addition to this - I have, in fact had a teacher who was gay. Did he go around announcing it? No. I found out from others - did it matter to me? No - because he was a good prof and his area of study had NOTHING to do with sexuality. Would I want my future son to sleep in a tent with him on a camping trip? diddly no.
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Wow, you guys got all worked up over the "homosexual scoutmaster" topic and completely ignored the "no atheists" policy. Interesting.
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StSanta: Logical fallacy. You state something is obvious when it's not. Your assertion that homosexuals have different moral/ethical values is questionable at best. They have a different sexual preference, but they might have the same ethical and moral values (with sexual choice being different) as heterosexuals.
Nothing of a sort. There is a thing caled "temptation" and most people who have not commited any criminal or immoral acts would still prefer not to place themselves or others in the way of temptation.
I have seen plenty of 11+year girls and 13+ year boys fully aware of their sexuality and willing and able to flirt and seduce for what it's worth and being great at it - and not aware of danger being young and inexperienced. Once girls discoved their femininity, they exercise it as much as possible on any available subjects. Final seduction may be not their original objective or not at all but they often try to get as close as possible - including contact, kisses, etc. not aware of danger and relying on their own or other people's self-control way too much.
Good morals is not a reason to place a healthy 25-year old male in a bedroom full of flirting 12-year old girls dead serious on sexually exiting him if not outright seducing him.
Same goes for boys/women guides - we definitely fantacised about our women guides (17+ year old) in soviet "pioneer" camps - and would not refuse going all the way, having no physical virginity to lose, risk of pregnancy, etc. That's why they slept separately and worked in pairs.
midnight Target: Never "shared a tent" or a shower with the scoutmaster either! Sheesh! Which scout troop were you guys in?
Have you though that you might have been deprived such experience exactly because one could have been homosexual and some authority outlawed it?
Of course being no atheist and no homosexual for religious reasons is good enough reason for them to exclude either. In that case they should certainly not get a cent of state funds as that would violate the Constitution. They would probably be better off without government money and regulations attached.
miko
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Gents, you ARE ALL SICK!!!
How can be possible to like guys??? Or girls????
We already have the sheeps, and that is the natural way to do it!!!
sheees, where this world is going...
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Have you though that you might have been deprived such experience exactly because one could have been homosexual and some authority outlawed it?
LOL, no.
I'm too old for that sort of thing. In the 60's no one even thought of it as a problem, because Gays were still mainly closeted.