Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: hitech on December 02, 2002, 03:22:10 PM
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Been toying with the idea that ordanance has little or no effect if you are not still living for a given period of time (around 30 secs) after impact.
What do you gents think?
HiTech
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Hmmmm...interesting.
What about in those extreme cases where you execute a dive bomb run and pickle your ord and then get nailed back to tower by a good 5 inch gunner while you are in the process of pulling out of the dive? Will that ord that you dropped be negated by this system?
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I can think of pro's and con's and certain situations for both sides of the argument...but its my opinion that if you pickle, and you die, bombs should still hit the target, just as in WW2.
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Bad...
Hate to think I've fought off cons from my Lanc, get bombs off...and the bastids wax me and at 30 seconds, the bombs turn to nerf.
I understand what abuse you are trying to counter but it could also backfire on legitimate bomb drops in which the player is shot down.
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Not a limit of the negative G bomb release??
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Yea, I don't like that idea either. It would penalize level bombers that get killed right after they drop.
I'd like to see some system where the bombs wont drop if you are past a certain AoA. At least not if they are sitting in a bomb bay- I suppose wing mounted bombs could fall freely at any given AoA, as long as you werent upside down.
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Agree with Ripsnort.
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Seems that this would penalize the jabo's that unintentionally die whilst dive bombing. The problem seems to be more heavy bombers divebombing on CV's so either make their eggs do no damage if they are in a steep dive or limit them to dropping when they are level?
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What if it only affected JABO A/C? (Shrugs) I can't help but think of the suicide JABO's lately...
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Aint compressed a P-38 in a whole, eh Rip ? :)
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Nah, better to perk the bigger bombs. You live and RTB, you get em back.
If I am diving on an Osti, pickle the bombs and then he gets the lucky ping on my egress, that bomb should still do damage. This 30 second rule would invalidate an honest attempt.
I would like to see plane damage from bombs hitting the aircraft if they are released in such a manner as to cause this collision (ie. dive bombing b-17's). These bombs should be duds after collision.
F.
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Not sure how'd you implement that Hitech. What about those attacking a town in tandem. How would the jabo 0-30 secs behind the first know what the first guy hit?
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Would this effect bombers or all ord for all planes?
Sometimes you get killed, like when attacking a ground vehicle. I think there would be an equal amount of whining if folks who make an honest attempt at dive bombing at by bad luck get killed.
It would be better then what we have now especially if it applies to all ord.
But is it possible that in heavy bombers to make it impossible to dive at angles greater then 30 degrees and release bombs?
But this does nothing to stop suicide lo alt level drops. But level drops are easier to handle. Its much harder to stop a 12k lanc who suddenly goes nose down on a cv as you close to kill him.
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How would this work? Some dweeb divebombs a hanger in a suicide run with a B17. The hangar gets destroyed, but the dweeb dies 10 seconds later, and the hangar reappears again?
Or what about GVs? A dweeb divebombs with a Lanc and destroys my panzer, I end up in the tower. But 5 seconds later, the divebombing dweeb dies as he lawndarts. Do I get put back in my panzer?
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Not a limit of the negative G bomb release??
I think that Mitsu's idea would work better.
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Perhaps limiting the ability of heavy level bombers or formation Buffs to arm unless they are above 10k?
Just a thought...
:)
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Agree with ripsnort, etc.
Effort might be better spent fixing bombers, gv damage model, etc. Hell, I see nothin wrong with suicide bommin, although it's silly in the planes we use.
How about a perk kamikaze plane??? :D
mullah
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I want to see effect if I or someone else drops eggs on target when they impact. If VH is hit, want to know it immediately so others won't drop more eggs on it.
Also don't want to see VH destroyed but then come back up in 25 seconds cuz someone got shot down, augered or whatever.
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GV's would have another 30 seconds to spawn after you've bombed the VH?
I don't like that idea.
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Perhaps a bomb, falling from ANY designated bomber might have no effect on water craft. Ever.
Reduce the tonnage amount required to kill CV so that it can be done in reasonably by the bombs of a "real" jabo plane only. Take the lancs and B-series buffs totally out of the equation.
Just a thought.
dh
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Originally posted by LUPO
I think that Mitsu's idea would work better.
hehehe
the force holds the bombs in the bombbay where they detonate :)
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In terms of penalizing suicide bombers, maybe if there's a differential between the plane that lawn darts shortly after pickling and the plane that gets shot down.
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The Jabo - Osty situation is probably the best example of why it would be a bad idea as a blanket 'feature' IMHO. If I get nailed by an osty right after I've released bombs I want the sucker to die even though I'm going to too.
There is a single situation where I think it could have merit and that is of course; ord delivered on an enemy CV. Even having said that I think the odds are less than even that it would stop more whines and/or unhappiness than it would create.
Otherwise I honestly think there are a few better methods that have been suggested by others recently:
Pitch and or G limits on when a buff can drop ord. (In a dive above a certain rate no dropping or bombs ineffective)
Bombs become 'hard' objects straight after release. If you drop one under neg G and it goes through your wing.... bye bye wing.
Gatso
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The level bombers should not be allowed to drop anything with an AoA greater than some "magic" number (obviously I don't know what that is), inverted, or anything other than level. This limitation would have to be on a plane by plane basis as this would not apply to bombers which were designed for a diving type of attack mode.
Ground attack should be a dangerous game where planes are shot down. IMHO, field ack is too soft (one little squirt of 7.92 shouldn't be able to kill a gun position)
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ordanance had a impact even if a bomber was destroyed prior... keep it real as possible.
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Or... One I just thought of.
For buffs with a bombsite only allow bombs to be released from the bombsite view. (auto level - no dive bombing)
May stop the most extreme cases.
Gatso
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No.
As it is, I hate to attack Ostwinds.
If my bomb isn't going to kill him if he hits me first, then I will just never attack them. (and I don't think I'm alone in this.)
Figure out some other way. (I like the perk the bomb idea personally.)
While it sounded good the first 20 seconds after I read it, when I had a minute to think how it would impact ME (about as non-suicide as you get), I don't think it will fly.
Ouch out
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Anyway I disagree.
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Nossir, I don't like it.
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Too keep it relatively real why not code in the fuzing for the bombs. Also I agree with the above suggestion that you should not be able to drop bombs in a buff with the f6 sight unless you are in the bombardier position (then limit the amount of maneuvering the bombardier can do with the plane).
One question is what about planes that carry torps, force them to be in the bombardier position as well...nahhhhhh.
Anyway on to fuzing, No bomb should count from any sort of drop (level or Jabo) unless the bomb is released X distance above target ( similiar code to the parachute drops I guess) say 2-4K. That way buddy has to release ordinance a decent distance above target and can't ride the bomb delivery platform down to 500 ft above target and drop just before he becomes one with the hangar. Combine with the bombardier rule and it you will hopefully realize a realistic tradoff between keeping the kamikazes out of the game and allowing for ground fire, compression or other dweebiness that we all suffer from on occasion.
ZPB
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Originally posted by hitech
Been toying with the idea that ordanance has little or no effect if you are not still living for a given period of time (around 30 secs) after impact.
What do you gents think?
HiTech
IMHO, not a good idea. A bomb released is an unguided armed weapon. I drop on a town and attempt an egress over the adjacent base. Not a good idea, but it will happen. Base AAA shoots me down. Valid weapons delivery on the town is then negated?
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Maybe if we only allowed Japanese planes to kamikaze... :p
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Level bombing angle limits and perking 1K bombs on JABO planes seem more realistic and more effective than a 30-sec death rule.
In addition, cancelling ordinance damage if the attacker dies would make torpedo runs even more difficult than they already are. It's hard enough to get close enough to drop torps accurately, let alone get away in one piece. I guess you could call torpedo runs suicide dweebery then, but they were pretty suicidal IRL.
Or would an exception be made for torpedo runs? That opens a whole new can of worms.
Anyway, very cool that HT came to the BB for input. Much appreciated.
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No Way.
How could this even possibly work? This would be a horrible disaster for JaBos that are actually fighting to live.
Example:
[color = blue]You drop your bombs on an Ostwind and score a perfect hit. Now you start climbing away and during that 29th second, the Osti gets a lucky shot on you from 2.0K and kills your pilot.
Now the Osti lives and you are dead in tower, when it should be the Osti that just had 1000lbs of bombs dropped on his head.[/color]
bombs should explode on impact. The pilot shouldn't have to wait 30 seconds to see if his bomb hit the target.
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How about all external ords become a PERK
HVAR = 1 perk each
100 lb bomb = 1 perk each
250 lb bomb = 2 perks each
500 lb bomb = 3 perks each
1000 lb bomb = 5 perks each
4000 lb bomb = 10 perks each
If you drop the bomb while in flight and you die your perk is spent. If you land or ditch, you get the perks back.
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You want to know the best way to limit suicide bombers?
Make some sort of penalty for death other than instant respawn.
Please don't try to stop people from 'gaming the game' by adding more gamey features. Why can't we step up the realism and encourage people NOT to suicide bomb by improving the rewards for landing a sucessful mission.
How about : If you die on during sortie, you get 0 scoring in all catagories for that sortie.
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I like the idea, assuming you can code it, that the game differentiates between a plane that was shot down after it dropped it's bombs and a plane that augers after dropping.
This applies to Jabo planes.
Level bombers should have a minimum AOA.
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Originally posted by hitech
Been toying with the idea that ordanance has little or no effect if you are not still living for a given period of time (around 30 secs) after impact.
Willing to bet a lot of "legitimate" (i.e., no intention of dropping and suiciding in) jabo attackers get shot down within 30 seconds of dropping. That should not invalidate the drop.
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Originally posted by hitech
Been toying with the idea that ordanance has little or no effect if you are not still living for a given period of time (around 30 secs) after impact.
What do you gents think?
HiTech
I prefer it as it is..... this seems too much of a fix/work around that moves away from the reality.
You will remember in the original AW format.......you had to live until your bombs hit.............(bombs only happened in the FE).........
Personally I thought it better afterwards (although AH is better still cos it does not award bomb damage points after death (i think))
If you (and every one else) sees a crater then it should have done some damage IMHO.
A point made elsewhere about dive bombing lancs although suicidal was slightly different in nature................. you could solve this via a different route (given resources) by disabling bomb release on bombers with internal loads beyond certain angles of inclination......or even above certain speeds.........
I like the idea of buying certain load outs with perk points............
Use it for big bombs, various 30mm options, the 3rd cannon on an La7 etc etc...........perks are returned when the ac is brought back.
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I agree somthing must be done to discurage this, but I am not shure using an unrealistic penatality to fix an unrealistic game aspect is the answer.
When I drop on a CV in lets say a P38 and I am pulling out I am not going to just fly leval so the fleat ack can kill me, nore am I going to do this while over a field. I am going to wiggle around to avoid being hit by ack.
I appricate you giving it some thought thpough HiTech, very cool.
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Would this apply to suicide jabo runs.. the lone tiffie that flys the 5mins to straffe fuel and dies on the realse of his entire rocket salvo?
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All of you former AWers forget that this is just like AW. If you lived long enough for your bombs to hit they were good. If you died before impact ... no joy.
I think 30 seconds is too long, but the concept is good.
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I love it :D I don't agree Ripsnort as dying doesn't mean anything compared as real life in WW2.
Make that 10 seconds only, plenty enough.
Or ... to accomodate Ripsnort and it's suicidal benefits, let the bombs kaboom the target but the guy cannot reup for 5 minutes if he just died within 10 seconds of his bomb drop. Kind off "suicide if it's your choice but pay the price".
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You have to be careful when you simply "take-away" an option. In a void the next most, or maybe more, dweeby tactic will emerge and in 6 months everyone will be back to complaining. I don't think a simple "survive 30 seconds" thing is fair if that thing gets to continue firing back at you for 30 seconds while you wait out the timer.
Let's face it, in terms of attacking CV's, only level bombing or suicide attacks work. Shore batteries are useless (too hard to aim, no target track, 30+ hits to sink CV), torpedo attacks are hopeless (dangerous approach, easy turning CV's, short range, no aiming tools, torpedos barely faster than CV), the real dive bombers have no advantages (SBD or Val has almost no bomb load, at least compared to something like a Suicide Lanc or P-47). If you take away the suicide jabo then either it'll be nearly impossible to attack, or some other tactic will emerge that may be even worse. If some/all of these were addressed then there might be lots of valid options for success and people might not have to resort to some of the ugly tactics.
Bravo to HT for posting something like this for discussion though, it opens up ideas and can help iron out issues before something is changed....
-Soda
The Assassins.
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What if your bombs only did damage if your airframe was outside the blast radius of your own bombs? That ought to stop the dive and pickle at the last moment attack which, as I understand it, is the problem.
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HT,
Thanks for considering possible ways to limit the effectiveness of suicide bombers. Unfortunately, with endless lives this tactic is valid. Obviously, there will be things that can be implimented to lesson the effectiveness of suicide bombers.
Personaly, I dont like the idea of tying the result of a bomb drop or rocket attack to a time lapse. Too risky for real time simulated warfare.
Some things to consider:
Create a max AoA and Speed for bomb release from certain heavy bombers.
Make it so that in order to carry ord you have to select the "Attack" button and create a perk penalty that subtracts points for lives lost in the "Attack" mode. Also while in "Attack" mode create perk pay for ordinance (admittedly, a more thorough implmentation of the perk system would be required and is overdue anyway).
Just some twobit thoughts on the subject.
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Many of you gents are confusing AOA (Angle of Attack) with climb/dive angle. AOA is the angle at which your wind hits your wing, so you can have a zero AOA with the aircraft in ANY attitude, straight up, straight down, level, inverted, whatever.
I think some of you are suggesting dive/climb angle release limits for heavy bombers, and G limits for releasing bombs from any aircraft. This would be realistic. Even modern attack fighters and bombers have fairly severe release limits. Release at high G and the release mechanism may jam, and releases at less than about .5 G's can be hazardous due to the possibility of the bomb coming back and impacting the aircraft. There are also max speed release limits due to aerodynamic factors (for example, at transsonic and supersonic speeds, bombs released from F-15 and F-14 aircraft may simply fall a few feet then fly back up and ride the shock wave banging into the plane) and also again due to stresses on the release mechanism and possible binding or partial weapons release.
That might be something worth implementing as a feature rather than spending time coding something deliberately unrealistic in an effort to change Main Arena gameplay.
eagl
Whoops, hope I don't get muted for typing "coming".
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I don't like it Hitech.
Perk bombs,
or limit AOA of appropriate planes for bomb drops,
or don't award perk points,
or don't award score points.
But please, do not add an unreasistic game-affect for whatever behavior you don't desire.
Something should be done about this, however.
eskimo
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IMHO, don't do the 30 second thing! I think that allowing level bombers to drop only while in bombsite mode should fix everything. Jabo fighters could and did suicide bomb, I don't see that it's much skin off anyone's nose if people continue to suicide JABO. I mean, you should be able to trade your life for one structure or vehicle, seems like a fair trade to me. As a matter of fact, I would actually like to see collision damage with structures. If I manage to pilot my P-47 with 1/2 a wing into an enemy hangar in a final act of defiance it should be worth something.
My 2 cents!
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Originally posted by hitech
Been toying with the idea that ordanance has little or no effect if you are not still living for a given period of time (around 30 secs) after impact.
What do you gents think?
HiTech
I'm glad you're bothered by suicide bombing, because IMHO it's a real problem. OTOH, I'm not sure your proposed solution is the way to solve it.
The main reason for my concern is that, IMHO, there are FAR more instances where somebody fully intending to live takes fatal damage shortly after releasing his ordnance, than there are instances of premediated suicide bombing. Thus, the solution you propose would apply too heavy a hand and punish legit pilots more than it does griefers. Rather like Killshooter does, IOW.
I think all dogs are entitled to 1 bite. So if you're going to track this sort of thing, do so over some number of sorties. If twice during the chosen interval somebody dies immediately after dropping, only then apply the penalty.
In addition, I would not make the penalty be the failure of the bombs to explode, because that can cause the punishment to bleed over onto all friendly pilots in the area, all of whom are guiltless even if the pilot who dropped the bombs was a griefer. Instead, I would either make ordnance unavailable to that person for 24 hours. Then he couldn't make a career out of doing this.
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A timer on ordinance fuses, drop it below a certain alt and it won't explode.
IIRC bombs have to fall long enough for the "spinner" to unwind a safety and arm?
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what would I do if everyone was posting and whinning about suicide bombers???? Ofter to remove the tactic by harshly penalizing everyone?
::Swims away:: ;)
Call me a Cynic...
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I say try it .. what do you have to lose
also make the ship guns damageable, why should guns stay 100% until the moments the ship sinks? we should be able to strafe them down as we do base ack - maybe a faster re-uptime to compensate
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I think a dual standard would be good enough.
* pitch angle/altitude limitation for the known "level buffs"
(excluding the Ju88A, which was capable of dive bombing)
* perk system for heavy ordnance such as 2x1000lbs
(pretty rare in real life, as many people pointed out)
It seems with the 30 second idea, HT's trying to solve two problems with one.. but as much of us would agree on, this sort of limitation is way too much.
The limitations on bombing according to the pitch angle would effectively force people away from "the ends justifies the means" behavior shown against targets like CVs(kind of makes you feel stupid grabbing a SBD Dauntless and performing the precision drop technique you practiced so hard to master... when any idiot with 3000~4000 feet alt can knock out a CV with Lanc formations with a bomb load equivalent of 21 jabo fighters..)...
..and the perk system for 1000lbs/500kg load out, (I believe Karnak suggested this first, way back..) is brilliant. It gives alternate use and reason for stacking up points, and also, seeing how just 8 points effectively ended the CHog scourge, even a meager 3~5 points on 1000lbs loadouts will make the jabo folk think twice before joining the typical "cram 20 Typhs to one field and close it any way you can.." situations we've been witnessing last few months. With the 1000lbs loadout far less common, it will need deadly precision to close down target fields.
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What I'm torn about is the instances of low altitude level bombings.. such as Lancasters passing over a field at 3k... I'm not sure how to look at this one.. because while it does bring a frown to my face, I'm not sure if this is exactly an unprecedented case in real life, nor if there is any real reason to stop this sort of bombing method.
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Here we go again…
Instead of getting the fighters to guard against bombers, let's just make things harder for the bombers. Heaven forbid that a strategic weapon should have any impact.
Just remove all bombers from the game and be done with it.
MachNix
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Originally posted by eagl
eagl
Whoops, hope I don't get muted for typing "coming".
Eagl,
The more you bring this up, the more mature and witty you sound, really.
SOB
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I'm still not sure that this kamikaze suicide run thing exists. Or at least I haven't seen conclusive proof.
There is a nameless chap in my squad who gets VERY target fixated and literally forgets to pull out. I've done it, especially when I realise there is a GV next to what I was aiming for and I shift my aim point and run out of time to avoid the lawn dart thingy.
In the mass missions, I've seen unorganised attack runs result in multiple killshooter deaths from fellow countrymen flying unseen under the bombing aircraft through the bomb's blast radius. To the observers this can certainly look like a "suicide" run. It's actually, and more importantly more likely, to be "brain turned off bombing" than a concerted kamikaze attack.
The only true kamikaze runs I can point at with certainty is against a CV, and as Widewing has graciously documented there is at least one way to avoid being hacked down by ack over a CV.
I think that it would be a bad idea to implement the disappearing bomb thing. If there is a delay in the blast effect while the server maintains a check on your virtual existence post bomb drop, I think you would be more likely to be killshot by a countryman flying into the blast radius after the server decides it should go off.
I think that it would be better to develop a delayed fuse system for those very low level jabo runs to allow more time for target egress.
palef.
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I thought we already had fuzed bombs. They don't splode if ya too low.
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Put a limit on the angle bombs will release in the buffs....
I think AW had something like that.
Anyway, if you put an angle limit that bombs would release out of the bomb bays, maybe that could solve the problem.
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Yeah, do it, but:
Count all ordnance drops on kills where the bulk of the damage is done by a human.
CFIT and ack-weenie kills should cause a respawn on all objects killed in the last 30 seconds.
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Is the 30 seconds negotiable... A lot can happen in 30 seconds..
how about 5 seconds?
IS this going to be recieved like kill shooter? everyone wants it but then reality sets in and then its evil?
T0J0
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The more you bring this up, the more mature and witty you sound, really.
SOB
Piss off SOB
It's a damned joke. It's the biggest joke in the game. Players can't control themselves online so HTC has to not only code in a hyperactive mute function that mutes people who type things like "let's land and gas it up", but also gives mute/eject power to people who let the whole thing get under their skin so they make stupid decisions and mute/eject people out of anger more than any real typing indiscretion.
And now HT suggests making another great decision to deliberately code something hideously unrealistic in order to alter gameplay in the Main Arena, when there are tons of player-suggested alternatives that would enhance BOTH gameplay and realism.
That's funny. It's more than funny, it's downright poetic.
So take your holier-than-thou attitude and stuff it in your piehole.
eagl
Hope I don't get muted for typing "stuff it"...
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LOL! You are a grumpy bastard!
"So take your holier-than-thou attitude and stuff it in your piehole."
That was beautiful, but you still whine like a girl. ;)
SOB
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keep HiTech's thread on topic for cod's sake.
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LOL! You are a grumpy bastard!
I'm out of percoset and haven't been able to get a full night's sleep in over a week. And the f**king neurosurgeon can't see me for another 11 days (AKA "2 weeks"). How's YOUR day going?
You're still a preachy twit.
eagl
Maybe I'll get muted for typing "preachy twit"...
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Well, I only had two classes today, and in the first one I got 100% on the last quiz before the final. Plus, this entire week is just review for finals, so it's cake. After that, I went to Changs, and ate a bunch of Lamb. Then, I took a nap, followed by going to friend's house to BS about our stupid movie. After I got home, I went on the Intardnet and relaxed. So, all in all, pretty good.
You're still a grumpy bastard, and I'm not sure what I was preaching - except maybe that repitition can get old. :)
SOB
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I thought they decided to call them Homicide bombings.
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Just perk 500 and 1000lb bombs for jabos.
+2 perks for each 500lb bombs and +5 for each 1000. +10 for 2000lb bombs(*cough*p38*cough*) Lose em if you die. This would not only help reduce suicides, but also encourage people to use the lightest possible load, adding to realism. Rather than the usual maxed bombload.
Add a dive angle restriction to level bombers.
Reduce the total ordnance needed to damage all hangars.(except for HQ) Mainly hangars, 1500 for an airfield hangar and 500 for a VH hangar. (Maybe 500 for ANY VH, and 1500 for FH/BH's)
Perking bombs, and eliminating divebombing effectivness for bombers will make things somewhat more realistic, but without reduced hardness settings, will only serve to encourage more furballing, and less attempting to take a base. Perking the heavy bombs, will severely restrict ordnance carrying, which is often already unavailable(due to people furballing, and never carrying ord). Reducing the hardness will make the perk bombs more effective, while penalizing suicide bombing.
It will also encourage bomber use, and use of the level bombsight, since the damage capability of the bombers will severely outweigh that of the free jabos.
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I vote for just increasing the arming time for bombs after they are released.
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Originally posted by gatso
For buffs with a bombsite only allow bombs to be released from the bombsite view. (auto level - no dive bombing)
This screws the Ju88 and Ar234, both of which were historically used for dive bombing (albeit shallow dives for the Ar234).
Originally posted by Yeager
Make it so that in order to carry ord you have to select the "Attack" button and create a perk penalty that subtracts points for lives lost in the "Attack" mode. Also while in "Attack" mode create perk pay for ordinance (admittedly, a more thorough implmentation of the perk system would be required and is overdue anyway).
I like the idea of automatically making the selection of external ordnance flip you into 'Attack' mode, but if you do this, you would also want to change perk determination, and award perk points only for destruction of ground targets when in 'Attack' mode, which would give people a disincentive to hang around and furball after dropping instead of RTBing.
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not to be redundant, but AW ( I think) had a limit on the angle that a buff could release a bomb.
Wouldnt this be a good way to solve the problem?
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Can it be coded so level buffs who are supposed to use bombsight can't drop unless they are level and the bomb bay doors do not open until altitude is at least 8K.
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Strategies and tactics existed to minimilize air casualties. In AH that is not the case. Effectiveness is the sole goal since there really isn't such a thing as bieng a casualty.
I think altering the bomb damage is the only way to promote some resemblance of realistic strategies and tactics. As AH sits right now, the bombing game is totally gamey. You know exactly how much you need to drop and exactly where the targets will be. You know that you only need to point your nose straight down and press the trigger and your bombs will destroy the target. Hell... even a CV. And you know that the bomb you just released is guaranteed to shut something very specific down.
Every action in the MA is based on cause an effect. What damage can you cause and what is the effect on you? The absence of a penalty for dieing (other than score) has skewed the balance between the two and has served to create an extremely unrealistic attack style.
And.. the one thing that people somewhat seem to be forgetting. If you get killed and your bombs don't destroy something, you get to try again... with more experience this time. Unlike the real thing, where the people that learned lessons the hard way did not get to reap the benifits.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by ET
Can it be coded so level buffs who are supposed to use bombsight can't drop unless they are level and the bomb bay doors do not open until altitude is at least 8K.
Bombers did operate and bomb from low levels, even very low levels.
eskimo
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Eskimo, can you cite some cases ? What type and and altitude ?
I'd like to read up on it.
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This screws the Ju88 and Ar234, both of which were historically used for dive bombing (albeit shallow dives for the Ar234).
Ideally shiva the ju88 and 234 should have a dive bomb site. As for the 234 even the level bombsite is wrong. I posted in another thread about this.
Fighter bomber 190s attacked at low level as well. The armoing of the bomb is not a result of alt but travel time. At 500 ft at and 350mph I can drop a bomb and it will arm and explode at 150mph it wont.
"Perk for bomb weight" basically handicaps Axis attack aircraft even more then now. What reason would you risk the "perk" value of an f8/stuka bomb or whatever when you can fly an f6f or p51d or p38 or jug.
The suicide jabos raids we see now are not disruptive because they die or blow things up and die. Hell if someone wants to up and kill themselves let him. The problem comes with a raid of 50 of these guys and 75% kill themselves. Its no fun chasin umm around. I upped at one field and got 6 kills without firing a shot. And the base was up ack and all.
So you perk 1k bombs and the 50 suicide jabos guys show up with 500s. Their kill per structure will still be 5 deaths to 1 field object destroyed.
They only thing that will change this is a shift from field capture as a trigger to reset to a strat model that is based on bombers. Fighter bombers and land grabbing will be secondary.
The dive bombing lancs and b17s otoh is just stupid. If ht can disable bomber guns on the ground and "car bombing" then he ought to be able to make bombing at high gs or high angles go away as well. Low alt bombing should remain however.
Planes like the il2 stuka ju88 Ar 234 or any bomber that was used as a dive bomber (shallow dives included) should be exempt.
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Originally posted by Wotan
"Perk for bomb weight" basically handicaps Axis attack aircraft even more then now. What reason would you risk the "perk" value of an f8/stuka bomb or whatever when you can fly an f6f or p51d or p38 or jug.
So you perk 1k bombs and the 50 suicide jabos guys show up with 500s. Their kill per structure will still be 5 deaths to 1 field object destroyed.
The stuka will most likely be in the bomber category, with the other divebombers. (Although you can score them as an attack sortie they're still bombers) Perking the bombs on any bomber would obviously be counterproductive. As for the LW planes and such, loading two 1000lb bombs on a p38, would cost twice what a single 500kg would on a 190. Implemented as such, I don't see why LW gets hurt anymore than anything else.
As for the 1000lb bombs, the 500's probably should be perked also. Leave the smaller bombs which are effective for soft targets, and save the bigger bombs for specificly hardened targets. A large scale suicide attack with 250lb bombs would be fun to see.
Perking the 500/1000lb bombs, would push a large amount of the damage infliction in the direction of the bombers, which would make the divebombing lanc problem worse. And so we're back to limiting the dive angle for the level bombers.
All of these changes lined up makes inflicting damage on ground targets significantly harder, requireing targets like hangars to be made somwhat softer. But once this is done, we're left with a system where suicide attacks are less effective and more costly, while at the same time promoting the use of bombers.
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Wotan,
You're at level flight at 500 ft, and the bomb will arm if you drop it at 350 but not if you drop it at 150?
If this is true, then something is badly porked in the game physics. One of the first gravity experiment done in junior high science class is the one where you drop a marble at the same time you fling one horizontally from the same altitude, and they both hit the ground at the same time.
Bombs work the same way in real life, with only rather small variations depending on if the bomb is above or below it's terminal velocity. I'm pretty sure HT didn't code that in, since the last time I bothered flying a bomber in AH the bombs still hit directly below the bomber indicating that there is no drag whatsoever being applied to the bomb. This may have changed, but I haven't buffed in quite a while. About the only way a bomb should hit directly below the plane that releases it is if it's released in a vertical climb or dive, or if after bomb release the pilot decelerates rapidly. The distance behind the aircraft the bomb impacts is called "Bomb trail" in real life and it's an important consideration when planning a bombing pass without using a modern computing bombsight.
Which brings me back to my original point... There are plenty of realism enhancements that can be made to how bombs work in the game without messing with bomb effect timeouts.
In WB when similiar controversy surrounded lazer-like guns, we got more realistic ammo trajectories and impact energies instead. This had the unfortunate impact of initially pointing out some flaws in the damage model (insta-death pilot kills became the usual result of taking any hits) but the realism of the entire game system moved FORWARD, where the alternatives such as an altered "hit bubble" in the front quarter or making bullets disappear at some arbitrary range, would have had the desired gameplay effects immediately but at the cost of severe realism compromise.
Lets see some more weapons employment realism first, THEN fake things for gameplay if we can't get that to work.
Here are some suggestions that might give the desired results in the main arena without compromising the integrity of the game:
Make sure bombs have a terminal velocity and drag. If this means a flight model for each bomb or just a shortened trajectory after release, take the time to make the bombs act like real bombs. Add weapon release parameters that prevent abuse of the system, just like flap and gear limiting speeds prevent them being abused like they were in earlier game versions. Start with aircraft attitude, G, pitch/roll/yaw rate, and speed limits on bomb release. For example, rolling a heavy bomber as bombs exit the bomb bay may cause the bombs to impact the side of the bomb bay or bomb bay doors (happened to a B-1 in Desert Fox), and pulling excessive G's (or negative G's) during release may cause the bomb to hang up on the aircraft without releasing properly. DOCUMENT these parameters (approximates are fine), as they would be made available to a real pilot in the form of standard operating limits. Then make the consequences severe enough to discourage abuse. Make bombs hang or impact the aircraft causing minor damage if released improperly, just like the landing gear gets stuck down if oversped, but don't make the consequences severe enough to discourage bomber use of course.
How's that for productive suggestions? Guess what, most of them were made years ago by myself and others, and they were either discarded or put on the back burner. It's HT and Pyro's JOB to prioritize feature addition, and they see the results of those decisions far more clearly than ANY player can. This time however, I suggest upping the priority of some useful, realistic features instead of coding something goofy and fake.
flames > /dev/soma_percoset
productive_discussion > /dev/hot_tub_therapy_ahhhhh
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yes, it was the case in Air Warrior that you had to live until the time of impact for the bombs to take effect as I recall. It was also the case in Air Warrior that even bomb loaded fighters could not drop bombs at negative G's.
I would prefer to see:
1. no bomb are released at negative G's
2. Heavy bombers, Lancs and B17s, cannot dive bomb due to the structural limitations
3. perk the bombs over 500lbs which you get back if you live for more than 30secs after impact
I'd like to see all these... ;)
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I'll go with what FDutchman said. Hope you figure it out somehow HT as it is a growing problem.
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I hate to be the odd one out here but... I think it's a doggone good idea HiTech. Killing targets with bombs and living (especially CV's) takes a certain amount of skill. It's hardly impossible. Suicide bombing is gamey and detracts from the Aces High overall. I say do this. If you can't hit a target and live... then practice. All ya gotta do is learn how, and it would be WORTH it to rid the arena of the suicide garbage.
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Originally posted by eagl
Wotan,
You're at level flight at 500 ft, and the bomb will arm if you drop it at 350 but not if you drop it at 150?
If this is true, then something is badly porked in the game physics.
I think you're incorrect there eagl -
That bomb would have at least 200 more feet to fly before hitting the ground, wouldn't it?
Since bombs in AH have to travel a certain distance before arming, what wotan said makes sense to me.
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Originally posted by NUKE
Put a limit on the angle bombs will release in the buffs....
I think AW had something like that.
Anyway, if you put an angle limit that bombs would release out of the bomb bays, maybe that could solve the problem.
AW bombs would not release under negative g..........(regardless of plane type)
AW4W bombs only damaged objects if the originator was still alive when they hit......
AW3 bombs damaged objects regardless of whether the originator was still alive.......
But back on track
..........Angle of attitude inhibitor would only apply to internal ordanance..hence on the Mossie, JU88 & Il2m3 its internal bombs would be inhibited in a dive but not external..... this would be accurate........
The logic "gate" would then be the bomb bay doors
I think 1 perk when choosing 1000llb/500kg (buy one get the rest free) is fair and maybe 2 perks when choosing 1000kg should we ever get one.
re mass raids........... then use a field limit......
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Nevermind, I was thinking you were talking altitude
Although in real life, werent the 'timers' on bombs simply miniprops on the nose of the bomb, that spun off and armed?
In this case a bomb going 350 miles an hour would arm quicker then one at 150
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No, don't like it
There is ofcause some people that run suicide missions,
but i think it's a bad idear to penalise those who actually
are trying to survive.
And by the way, you do get more perks for landed missions,
so a way to encourage survival could be to adjust perk points
so there is a greater difference between a landed and a mission
where you die.
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Although in real life, werent the 'timers' on bombs simply miniprops on the nose of the bomb, that spun off and armed?
In this case a bomb going 350 miles an hour would arm quicker then one at 150
Tht was my point.
But even so if I am at 350mph how fast is the bomb going when I release it?
How fast is going if I am at 150 mph?
Wont the the bomb "glide" further at 350 then it would at 150?
The distant from the plane to the ground is always 500 ft but the "bomb" travels a longer distance --------------> this way.
at 325 at 750ft I can release a bomb level from an f8 and get a hit on a vehicle at 1.7k or so. Any slower then that the bomb falls short. Faster the bomb lands long.
Doesnt a bomb with fins "glide"?
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So you will do something about the folks dive bombing the carrier with b17/lanc.. its fairly tuff to live through a drop from a p47 or 38 and 1 and 10 try you can sometimes live in an A20 dive attempt.
sorry to disagree, but you put more though in the big bombers dive attempts and not on the unequal numbers.
You want realistic, why dont the boats list ( incline, lean, recline, slope, tilt, tip) to one side when hit by torp or damaged, would make taking off fun if not impossible for fighters.
Sounds like the fleet will become a floating fortress unable to be killed or harmed.
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Don't like it. If I die shortly after bomb release, it's most likely because someone got me, or due to an accident during pullout from a dive.
Aside from that, making divebombing impossible for level-bombers is a good idea. Maybe have bombs from a bomb bay only fall out from a certain AoA range.
For punishing suiciders, I dunno...
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Its easy to stop if we all lead by example. Was in arena one day when a new player wanted to sink cv. A existing player been here longer than I. Gets on country channel tells him how to suicide cv. 4 or 5 people speak up (hazed,whels and myself with others. Telling him to teach new players to suicide is gaming game.
I have killed between 50 and 100+ cv's every tod. Not once have i done the suicide bombing. Now granted died to ships ack. because only got to 5k. But if i get to 8k and no fighters sinking cv is a snap. "OPPS THERE GOES ANOTHER CV" is my favorite saying. I think if a guy is willing to give his life in a jabo attack then by all means it should count. It wasn't just Japanese that did dive bombing to carriers We USA lost hundreds of dive bombers who dove on cv's and other ships.
( one of our best ACES died in ww2 straffing a ship.)
What I think would stop this suicide bomber attacks is make ack only fire if guns manned. If a side is not willing to protect its cv They should lose it.
Side note Bismark in ww2 spent all of its antiaircraft ammo trying to stop ww1 planes from sinking it. They didn't shoot down 1 plane. but did hit 2 of them. But in here its lazer ack. so guys use bombers as suicide machines.
1. Turn ack to be manned at cv's could be like a bombers ack so many guns per person. Give more points for manning a field or ship gun
2. Increase Radar range for cv's and set radar lower just for cv. ( I would set it to 0 feet. Reason is in real life you would have to wave hope and would be on dar if stormy)
3. Cv's Needed a CAP over them or they would be useless in war, In here not many cap a cv some do just not many they expect ack to save cv. should be other way around. Easy to kill cv if its not CAP and guns manned. Now its lethal ack so guys suicide it.
4. If these above situations take effect. Then Flim any Bomber doing a suicide bombrun on cv and send it to Hitech. 1 warning second offense 2 weeks banned 3rd offense 1 month. etc.
I Can't think of the player who mans the 5 inch guns. But he has taken out 1 or 2 of my bombers at 8 k above cv. Also if a cap is up 1 plane can make it hard to sink cv in formation. If your bomber gets hit Cailbration is porked.
Well there is my 2 cents........................ ..........................
Only newbie to boards because i started new ID name :)
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perking bomb loadouts would have the largest effect on the people who cant afford them. is it fair to limit the gameplay of a newbie because of a few lamers?
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Originally posted by stynger
perking bomb loadouts would have the largest effect on the people who cant afford them. is it fair to limit the gameplay of a newbie because of a few lamers?
Many of those lamers -are- the newbies, so yes. It's also not a few, there are an awfull lot of us.
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I don't like it....would eradicate Bishops from game :D
On a serious side, I don't think it will work.
Maybe it's a silly proposal...wait, I'm sure it is :D , but,
What would you think of this: if a great number of planes (say 10, for instance) die due to AAA or crash not related to damage by enemy aircraft or GV fire in a particular spot (a base) in less than 30 seconds ALL of the planes of this country in the vincinity of that spot (say the whole sector) die immediately regardless of their role in the attack? You could refine the code adding a random factor to the number of planes needed to trigger that event and thus limiting the ability to trim numbers in 2 consecutive waves of suicides just under the limit.
This way not only you would disencourage suicides per se, but also the parasite vulchers symbiothically associated to them.
Best regards,
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Oh...I forgot: Thank your for your interest, Hitech. I would really love to be massive suicide raids out of this game :)
Cheers,
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Originally posted by Wotan
Wont the the bomb "glide" further at 350 then it would at 150?
AFAIK, there would be little difference since the fins are not curved like an airfoil is. there would be little lift as there would not be much difference in pressure at the back of the fin. (this is of course with my limited knowledge of how lift works )
a bomb dropped at 350miles an hour would land at the same time as one dropped at 150 if my physics serves me well
however since in real life all bombs had were those prop fuses and not radar altimeters, how AH models them is correct.
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Its strange, but in this whole thread I don't see one person acknowledge or say that bombs should simply be released at higher altitudes.
It is not difficult at all to survive a jabo attack. If you release your bombs above 7k you are out easy. The problem is, this is not accurate enough for many people that insist that they destroy something. Instant gratification wins out above all else.
Bombs kill from above 7k. I've seen many people drop on CVs from higher altitudes with fighters and hit it while avoiding the ack umbrella. Those are the few where survival actually plays a role in their practice/tactics. They are rare in the MA and this thread highlights why.
AKDejaVu
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because some times you drop at lo alts
in 190f8 i can fly level at 750 and hit a gv at 1.7 k while level
190 fighter bombers did this
follow the link to an image.
http://www.il2center.com/Reference/Bulk/LW%20FW-190%20Fighter/Fw190_fighter_bomber_tactics_draw.tif
If we get a b25 we would want the ability to do low level noe raids as well.
Back to this physics thing
at an alt of 750 ft and no matter what my speed if I release my bomb at a given point it should always land at the same point?
See image
(http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/o/wotans/Images/bomb.jpg)
Is this right?
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I don't think that's right, Wotan. Your bomb will always take the same amount of time to fall 750 ft, but the faster your release speed, the further the bomb will travel horizontally before impact.
Imagine dropping your bomb from a hovering helicopter at 750 ft, then from a FW190 travelling at 300 mph, but also at 750 ft. The first bomb has 0 horizontal velocity at release, the 2nd will be travelling quite a ways before impact.
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well that was what I originally thought but i am unsure now
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From a physics-impaired, so take it not too seriously.
When you drop at constant alt, what remains constant is the time the bomb is in the air. But the faster plane will make the bomb travel more distance horizontally, since it covers more distance per time unit. Of course, leaving drag aside, and in a perfect atmosphere.
So I would say the pic is false.
Cheers,
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I see where the confusion
Fighter bomber 190s attacked at low level as well. The arming of the bomb is not a result of alt but travel time. At 500 ft at and 350mph I can drop a bomb and it will arm and explode at 150mph it wont.
I didnt mean to imply that the bomb stays in the air longer but that at a higher speed the bomb arms in a shorter time.
EDIT
Also it could mean that ah bombs arm over a given distance and not at a faster rate at higher speeds. So I could be wrong all way round.
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HT.. I think you know how I feel about perk planes but.. I think that the perk system is perfect for bombs. for all single engined planes why not perk bombs? Say... all 250 lb bombs are free... after that.. you earn bomb 'perk points' by surviving a jabo missun. If you hit a target and land... you get bomb perk points toward single engine bomb loadouts. maybe rockets free also and count toward bomb perks? I don't know but... the beauty of it is that because it is a "perk" it could be adjusted.
lazs
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What's so bad about suicide jabos? Against fields, they choose to go all the way back to the tower rather than remain a threat near the target. In the case of Jaboing CVs, the only difference between a "suicide jabo" and an organized dive bombing mission is the group organization - the casualty rates are similar.
As it is today, a heavy bomber formation level bombing is likely to get demolished on it's bomb run. If you add another 30 seconds to that vulnerability stage, the chance of any bomber doing effective damage is even less. The reason people suicide bomber formations is because they can't do much damage using the bombsite. The 30 sec cure is worse than the symptome.
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I like BH's idea. Penalize a suicide attack by restricting the player's future access to ordanance -- sorta like the PNG thing in AW. Maybe allow the player to load only rockets and 100 lb bombs for 1 hour after a suicide attack. This would limit "die and repeat" attacks.
Also, I like eagl's idea of adding more realism, rather than a gamey fix. Limit bomb release according to flight parameters, structural limits, and aircraft type. (The details will keep this board alive for years.)
Also, the bomb fuzing time could be increased slightly.
Also, I think the definition of a "suicide" should be should be somewhat less than 30 seconds -- maybe 10 seconds.
My two cents...
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Wotan: I think the AH bomb arming relies on altitude above ground rather than a function of time and airspeed. I could be wrong but that's my feeling.
Anyway, a faster forward motion WILL deliver the bomb further, both in real life and AH.
About HiTech's idea...don't like it so much, but I understand the motive. Well...hmm...a timefuse of 3 seconds maybe...
Here is a downside I just thought off. Imagine flying into the blast of a severely delayed bomb. Or imagine flying into a building that just reupped because the one who bombed it died too early.
Naa...don't see how it could best be done, but hardly like that.
Besides, the true bombers are porked enough already...
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angus i know its not alt you can test it. its either over distance or it arms at a different rate at different speeds.
As I said at 325 (said 350 in previous post but i meant 325) at 750 level I can hit and kill a gv. At lower speeds the bomb wont arm. I assume this is a result of either distance or speed.
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HT, I don't like the idea
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Bad..ju...ju... No Doughnut!
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Consider this about bomb travel distance based on speed. A level bomber with a properly calibrated bomb sight going 350mph will be prompted to release further away the target than a plane at the same alt but slower speed. This results in the bomb traveling further. It's built in to the bomb sight when calibrated properly.
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As a perfectly simple way of restricting the angle of release for the heavy bombers how about HTC codes it so that if you dive in a b17 or lancaster over say 30 degrees the Bombbay doors simply shut.
then you cant drop your bombs.
or perhaps the increased stress and speed tear off the doors and damage the release mechanism meaning no further drops are possible for that flight.
As for the idea of 30 seconds to stay alive in order to have your bombs take affect I can see the idea is trying to stop those suicide bombers but it isnt that rare for the guys who try hard not to die but still get shot down by defenders or ack.
I feel it would penalise those that try hard not to die and are unlucky or not quite good enough yet to survive.
The perking of the bombs over 250lbs does on the surface sound like a great way to limit use by those who dont care about surviving whilst not severely punishing those who regularly try to live but are unlucky now and again.
If the player is a good jabo pilot and often succeeds he will build up a nice amount of 'ordinance perk points' allowing him to suffer the odd death to acks.
Whereas the pilot who constantly dives in unloads bombs and augers will soon find he hasnt the ordinance perk points to continue this behaviour.
I vote for Perked bombs over 250lb and limited dive angle drops for those aircraft that couldnt dive bomb.
the 30 second thing sounds a bit sweeping in its punishment, hurting legit users as well as dweeb suiciders.
PS why is this thread in the general forum and not gameplay? :)
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if it is to stop suicide bombing then make it less time than 30 seconds a suicide jabo dies immediately. set the timer at 1 or 2 seconds.
Drifter
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Originally posted by AKIron
Consider this about bomb travel distance based on speed. A level bomber with a properly calibrated bomb sight going 350mph will be prompted to release further away the target than a plane at the same alt but slower speed. This results in the bomb traveling further. It's built in to the bomb sight when calibrated properly.
also the 'arming' were often set by a small rotating blade on the end of the bombs that turned in the wind.Once it had turned enough the bomb armed.
A bomb dropped at 325mph with this device would spin that blade faster and possibly arm the bomb whereas the 150mph one would turn the blade less and possibly may not arm in time.
As far as i was aware in AH its the distance traveled by the bomb that arms it, not the height dropped.
if it was fast enough (350mph?) the low bombdrop can arm because the bomb 'travels further' along the ground in the time it takes to fall.The slower traveling one (150mph?) wouldnt travel the same distance even though it drops from the same height and so wouldnt arm.
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a lot of this stuff is pretty complicated and kinda.... anal.
i would suggest that you "perk" bombs over say 250 lbs and the attention starved suicide jabos would melt away like burglars who seen the owner was home and had a gun.
lazs
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The idea is reasonable to me overall. It would reduce jabo runs where the pilots ride them in "just to make sure," and require them to both hit the target and pull out successfully. However, it probably wouldn't stop the "auger and reup" group -- they just have to count to 30 first.
A reduction to 3-5 seconds would equally solve the "just to make sures" while minimizing legitimate complaints. Even a flaming jabo that's missing one wing from AA should stay alive long enough for the hits to register, but not one that impacts the target at the same time as the bomb, or gets caught in the blast radius by riding it down too long. It will have virtually no impact on the "auger and reup" group, but then 30 seconds isn't that much of a deterrance either.
The release parameter restrictions also make sense regardless. And, the perked bombs and 30-minute to rearm provisions make sense too, particularly for the "auger and reup" types. Perhaps a combination of lesser adjustments to encourage a more realistic environment.
Charon
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This is not ment to just stop dive bombing buffs. Infact I was seeing it more limititing jab attacks.
But wrather to create a need to live for all bombing raids.
On the realism side limiting dive angles (btw guys please stop using the word Angle of attack to meen the current dive/climb angle) for bomb drop is just as unrealistic as bomb delay. Neg G limits could be implemented, but that realy wont change any thing. When dealing with game play issues i'ts you realy need to think out side the realism onvelop. And try to come up with somthing that makes since, and does not stray to far from reality.
It's easy to say, hey thats not realistic, but what you realy wan't to ask is, is the change in physics realism (i.e. 30 sec delay) worth the trade off to a more realistic world play (.i.e it's not realistic to just dive bomb and not care if you die)
Eagl. Go suck an egg,at least jump on me for correct facts.
Bombs have had drag since 1.09.
Since you no longer care to play why are you here?
Oedipus: ) Why didn't level bombers like the B17 or Lancaster dive bomb? Many reasons. Mostly physical. So just add the missing ingredients to HTC so that they can't do it online in the arena.
You are correct, the physical resonse are you would most likly die trying it.
Thats exactly what im trying to implement.
Laz, im not sure that will give the will to live threw the attack im looking for.
Just haveing a new thought , havn't figured out how yet. But wrather than putting a penalty for not living. How about some type of extra reward in game play (i.e. nothing with scoring or perks) that has some type off effect on arena play? My first impression it would not be enof to prevent the suicide attacks.
Also the system would only be implemented on static targets.
Damage on players would be as is now.
HiTech
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what about more severe - longer lasting, slower recovery from - black/red outs in a bomber dive?
you wouldn't be able to hit what you cant see
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IMO seem pretty simple to me, in my happy little world... (course I'm on Lithium and don't feel a thing :D)
Bombers... Angle of climb or descent greater than 5° (or some number) no bomb drop. No altitude restriction. Bomber did actually do very lo alt runs... Ploesti come to mind
Fighters... Bombs must be RELEASED from the A/C and fall in ALTITUDE of a minium of 1000' (or some altitude). Anthing less than 1000' no detonation, no release from A/C, no detonation.
Simple. :D
Ah.... Lithium........
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Originally posted by Midnight
No Way.
How could this even possibly work? This would be a horrible disaster for JaBos that are actually fighting to live.
Example:
[color = blue]You drop your bombs on an Ostwind and score a perfect hit. Now you start climbing away and during that 29th second, the Osti gets a lucky shot on you from 2.0K and kills your pilot.
Now the Osti lives and you are dead in tower, when it should be the Osti that just had 1000lbs of bombs dropped on his head.[/color]
bombs should explode on impact. The pilot shouldn't have to wait 30 seconds to see if his bomb hit the target.
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How about all external ords become a PERK
HVAR = 1 perk each
100 lb bomb = 1 perk each
250 lb bomb = 2 perks each
500 lb bomb = 3 perks each
1000 lb bomb = 5 perks each
4000 lb bomb = 10 perks each
If you drop the bomb while in flight and you die your perk is spent. If you land or ditch, you get the perks back.
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You want to know the best way to limit suicide bombers?
Make some sort of penalty for death other than instant respawn.
Please don't try to stop people from 'gaming the game' by adding more gamey features. Why can't we step up the realism and encourage people NOT to suicide bomb by improving the rewards for landing a sucessful mission.
How about : If you die on during sortie, you get 0 scoring in all catagories for that sortie.
Best idea so far. I like it.
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My feeling is when a player does a suicide attack, they are not concerned about scoring. I would say rather they are concerned primarily with dropping whatever target the are attacking. In these instances, no amount of perk or score adjutsment is going to have much effect.
I get the idea this is hitech's belief as well when putting forward the delay concept. For lack of a better idea, I think in concept it is a good idea, but 30 seconds is a very long time.
However, I say this is a good idea with this one caveat - Against another player (I am thinking of GV's specifically) this delay should not be in effect. Kill award and bomb effect should be as it is now (can you code this way?).
I wish I had some new idea, but I can't think of anything that would impact a suicide bomber's activity other than preventing him from accomplishing his "mission".
Edit to add: (CV's should also be considered static targets in this context)
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Do you know how many perks for bombing go unused. take away lazer ack make side cap cv suicide bombing will stop.
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Exactly how do you get these perk bomb points with out having bombs to get them?
HiTech
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My 0.02 ˘....
1) Neg G's in four-engined bombers = no ability to drop
2) To add to HT's original idea. If you die 5 seconds after the drop and within 250 ft of the target, you get tagged with a bounty for, say, 15 minutes. Folks get some reward for blasting your suiciding little butt. Whether that reward is one free perked ride, double perks, 5 bucks off their next AH bill, etc... I dunno. Other lightning strikes (ie alternatives) include...
A: No ord you deploy for the next xx minutes does any damage. Guns, rockets, and bombs do no damage what so ever
B: You can't fly the AC type you got caught suiciding in for xx minutes. E.G. If you were in a jabo, you can't fly any jabo for a set time.
C: Deploying ord costs big time. 500lbs bombs would be 40 perks, thousand pounders would be 80 coming from your bomber perks. Rockets are 5 a piece and cost fighter/bomber perks depending on the plane.
D: Restricted to a given time period/era/ENY of AC. Get nailed once, you can't fly anything built after Jan 1 1944. Twice and the limit is Jan 1 1942, three times and you're stuck in a Storch.
3) No matter what, the bombs still do damage. Vanishing ord is generally a bad idea.
4) Dive bomb sights for those A/C that had them.
-----------------------
Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta Six's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/sig/global.gif)
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Let's keep the game realistic....if you get your bombs off before you die, they should still blow up whatever they hit, just like in real life if it happened. Doesn't that make the most sense for a simulator? What do you guys think?:confused:
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Originally posted by hitech
Exactly how do you get these perk bomb points with out having bombs to get them?
HiTech
start with a pool of them
maybe set up a way to trade on type of perk for another
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Originally posted by hitech
Exactly how do you get these perk bomb points with out having bombs to get them?
HiTech
LOL you would only perk uber bombs......... like you only perk uber planes.........
all you would have to decide is whether to make the free stuff at 500llbs and below or 250lbs and below...
You would pay with bomber perkies (if you didn't land safe that is)
edit.........
make loading of bombs automatically switch to attack status.......
(does death = * 0 for perks?) if not should it?
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Delay fused bombs were used in WW2 often, in fact people have been wishing for them in the game for a long time. There are some threads around here somewhere on the subject.
So, the delay concept isn't "gamey" at all. For game play the implementation of delay would need to be tried and tested, especially as to length of delay. I feel 30 seconds after impact is too long a time, any number of things can happen near an airbase in that amount of time that are not specifically "suicide".
This may or may not prevent jabo though - in fact it might in some ways make jabo more effective, as now your low flying jabo would not be kiled in the bomb blast.
(Again, this needs to be tested, but I have always liked the idea of adjustable delay on bombs for reasons other than the subject of this thread.)
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Originally posted by hitech
Exactly how do you get these perk bomb points with out having bombs to get them?
HiTech
Just draw from fighter perks.
With 500/1000lb bombs perked at 2/4 points each, anyone can afford to use them.
Bombers would be exempt from this cost, giving an actual reason to use planes like the SBD, il2, upcoming stuka, etc, in the MA! Throw in dive-angle restrictions on level bombers, and you've got level bombers which have a real advantage over thier jabo counterparts, and attack bombers which are now worth using.
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well if like HiTech said the Vehicle damage would be instant as it is now i see no major problems with this.
CV's would last forever (or untill people get off their buts and learned to lvl bomb:) )
my only question is do all the drones AND the main plane have to die for the "0" damage.... or if just 1 dies do all the bombs still hit?
personally i just did a JU88 divebomb on a CV last night and hit it... i also pulled out but i had lost 1 of the drones. (the only reason i did a dive bomb is time LOL). but either way i would have had no problem with the bombs of the killed drone not hitting. i just think that it should be stated clearly to the community what you finally decide.
as for divebombing in general... look @ my squad name :D
we take some pride in being able to divebomb fighters, NOT "auger" and still hit your target. it was a real part of the war, but IRL it was not a sucicide mission.
last note on divebombing.... we the III/Jabostaffel can't wait for the Ju87 Stuka!!! :)
oh well my 2˘
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I agree with Rip, from way back when this thread started.
Oedipus, so now a "kamikaze" is a dweeb?! What's next, Ostie dweebs?!
War sucks doesn't it?
HiTech, leave the current format the way it is.
Karaya2
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
so now a "kamikaze" is a dweeb?!
sry Karaya2 ... i usually agree with alot you say......
yes the Japanese were fanatically loyal to their country and would rather die for it than live to fight another day.
BUT how many allied or german "kamikaze" pilots did you ever see in the war?
oh well my 2˘
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu
Its strange, but in this whole thread I don't see one person acknowledge or say that bombs should simply be released at higher altitudes.
It is not difficult at all to survive a jabo attack. If you release your bombs above 7k you are out easy. The problem is, this is not accurate enough for many people that insist that they destroy something. Instant gratification wins out above all else.
Bombs kill from above 7k. I've seen many people drop on CVs from higher altitudes with fighters and hit it while avoiding the ack umbrella. Those are the few where survival actually plays a role in their practice/tactics. They are rare in the MA and this thread highlights why.
AKDejaVu
I like this idea, but how would you determine the minimum altitude for a drop. If it is 7k, what about bases that are higher than sea level?
As much as it might improve some aspects of the game (ie suicide jabos), I just can't sink my teeth into the idea of bomb delays.
SOB
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HT,
Thanks for thinking about this and seeking out opinions.
Personally, I see the suicide problem as having an effect on several things - ranked by annoyance level :)
1) Suicide attacks on naval groups.
2) Re-planing and attacking a GV group.
3) Re-planing when defending a field.
A) My first thought is to limit re-planing in the same plane type from the same field after death. I would be reluctant to completely inhibit someone from using a certain field, because in many instances the same group of players works to defend a single field, so your defences would quickly be overrun. This may or may not be a bad thing, just thinking....
This idea could be refined somewhat, for example you up, you fly for 30 minutes and die, but you can still re-plane in the same plane type. But if you up, and die in 5 minutes then you cannot use that plane type (from that field) again.
B) Another thing to consider would be limiting the number of plane types at a given field until re-supplied. This may not be enough to correct the problem though, and it might impact missions in a negative way.
C) Possibly we could perk ordinance while also limiting ordinance per type at a field until re-supply. In other words, the ammo supply for 1ks is limited to 20 eggs at a given field, until convoy/train arrives.
D) If you die twice on sorties from the same field, you can no longer use that field.
These are just my initial thoughts, perhaps a combination of A and C would work well. Don't know.
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I guess if you have read this far, you've guessed I do not favor your proposed change ;) But let me explain why, in my opinion, it is not the best solution.
I believe it uses something which is un-realistic, to correct a quirk in the game which is also un-realistic.
"It's easy to say, hey thats not realistic, but what you realy wan't to ask is, is the change in physics realism (i.e. 30 sec delay) worth the trade off to a more realistic world play"
In reading this I understand some things better, in particular the changes to the way buffs work. Don't take this wrong HT, I really enjoy the game, and appreciate the work you and the crew has done. But we fundamentally disagree on this (or I may not have understood you well). Would like to share a beverage sometime and discuss this premise. But let's move on, and again - thanks for asking our input on this.
"Exactly how do you get these perk bomb points with out having bombs to get them?"
I would like to see all perk types consolidated, and an initial supply given. If not, then deduct them from the group for that vehicle type. In other words, I take up a fighter, a 1k bomb cost me "x" from my fighter perk points, unless I survive. Thoughts?
The suggestion below is similar (better?) and has merits:
Make it so that in order to carry ord you have to select the "Attack" button and create a perk penalty that subtracts points for lives lost in the "Attack" mode. Also while in "Attack" mode create perk pay for ordinance (admittedly, a more thorough implmentation of the perk system would be required and is overdue anyway).
My last suggestion is to take your time and think this one through. The problem is one that is part of a lot of sims, and if you can figure out an elegant solution, it will be a major improvement to your game.
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seems to me the 30 second nerf idea and the perk idea are both bad.
I think the main problem is suicideing CV's. Everything else is a trivial suicide problem .. but a cv suicidered will spawn 8 times in a row to sink a CV ....
how about if you suicide bomb and get killed within 30 seconds of drop you are forced to fly with no heavy ord for next 10 mins? (maybe only rockets- to allow for anti gv runs, but would do little damage to a CV)
So you wouldn't be able to up planeload after planeload of suicide eggs ... this should also eliminate unfairness towards well-meant drops... they will just be stuck with no heavy ord for ten mins when they respawn.
That's best i can come up with ... it's a hard issue, but i know the nerf idea would proably make me stop useing ord all together. Half the fun is blasting a town,gv or vh apart right infront of your eyes- a delay of 30 secs would ruin it for me.
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ok , my 2cents, what if there was say a death penalty,for jabo's and bombers only,suicide attacks - 20 perks and ten minute time out for dying jabo -20 peks off fighter perks.. bombers -20 off bomber perks eggs dropped still count though
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Originally posted by hitech
Just haveing a new thought , havn't figured out how yet. But wrather than putting a penalty for not living. How about some type of extra reward in game play (i.e. nothing with scoring or perks) that has some type off effect on arena play? My first impression it would not be enof to prevent the suicide attacks.
HiTech
How about a point system that allows people to spawn at 10,000 feet AGL? One reason why people don't want to live through bombing attacks is because it takes so long to fly to target and then return to land the sortie. If they got extra points for landing successful bombing runs then they would be rewarded by getting the choice to spawn higher, thus killing the time it takes to climb to alt. That would at least curb the suicides a little.
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Motivation not to die
Three classifications (my own) Strong, Average, Mild
Mild
1)you dont win perkies
2)shame- show deaths by AI ground fire on the system reports
3) it does not help your score
Average
1)you lose perkies
2)you can't fly the plane you just lost again for "x" minutes
3)you cant fly from that base again for "x" minutes
4) dieing neutralised your achievements
Strong
1) you lose lots of perkies
2) you cant fly that type (fighter,attack, bomber GV) of ride again for x minutes
3) you cant fly from that type ( small, medium, large, gv, cv) of base again for x minutes.
4) you cant fly at all for x minutes.............
HT seems to want to target Average 4)
Average 4)
a)delay actual detonation for a set period through which the player must live. (HT original)
b) add a reducing factor to the rebuild time if the bomber dies.....
c)????
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Hitech ,
As you seem to be in agreement the heavier bombers or those aircraft not designed for dive bombing are the major problem concerning the aspect of suicide dive bombing could you not introduce some of these suggested 'fixes' to ONLY those aircraft that werent designed for the job?
the 30 second delay idea would be perfectly ok if it was implemented on ONLY the planes not designed for dive bombing wouldnt it?
As for the fighter suicide runs this i think is a very tricky area as we have 2 different camps APPEARING to do the same thing , ie:
A player doesnt care about score who dives in drops bombs and augers without even trying to live
A player who is trying his best to live and drop bombs properly but is either unlucky or not yet skilled enough to survive and is killed.
one player deserves punishment while the other deserves reward for trying to learn and play properly.
This is why i feel that making bombs cost perks is the way to go.
Yo want to influence behaviour rather than changing the fundimentals of your flight model.
The current model for jabo is superb, its the players who abuse it that are the problem.
If you can make their behaviour TOO COSTLY then you remove the behaviour.
The legitimate player who tries over and over to survive will build points up whereas the player who never tries will soon run out of points.
It will be tricky to get the ballance right im sure but at least you havent had to make adjustments to your flight model.
Also how about if you take a fighter bomber with max loadout you are risking say 5 or 10 perks.You make a successfull and realistically executed attack and survive the drop for at least 30(or less) seconds. once that time is up you are no longer risking the 5 to 10 perks it cost for the bombs?
you see you could implement the 30 second rule on JUST the ordinance.
The player who gets shot down just after the alloted time keeps his perks. Only the player who suicides or is unlucky enough to crash or get shot down soon after will be penalised.Bit tough on the guy trying hard and failing but im sure we could all accept it if it stops the endless hordes of dweeebs :D
This does call for a new category of perks , ie 'ordinance perks' so it may not be to your liking ?
(i must say i also feel 30 secs is a bit too long. just my opinion, maybe 5 or 10 seconds?)
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Originally posted by Preon1
How about a point system that allows people to spawn at 10,000 feet AGL? One reason why people don't want to live through bombing attacks is because it takes so long to fly to target and then return to land the sortie. If they got extra points for landing successful bombing runs then they would be rewarded by getting the choice to spawn higher, thus killing the time it takes to climb to alt. That would at least curb the suicides a little.
Oh yeah, you would also be at 200 IAS directly over the spawn point going in the direction that the spawn point indicates.
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The easy solution to Suicide Bombers is:
- Bombs can only be released from bombsight position
- Bombsight position occupied = immediate setting to auto-level
If needed (due to dexterity or programable buttons and timing of auto-level kick-in), add requirement that the bombsight position must be occupied for 1 full second before bombs can be released.
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Originally posted by Samiam
The easy solution to Suicide Bombers is:
- Bombs can only be released from bombsight position
- Bombsight position occupied = immediate setting to auto-level
If needed (due to dexterity or programable buttons and timing of auto-level kick-in), add requirement that the bombsight position must be occupied for 1 full second before bombs can be released.
and what about the a20g? the il2? the ju88?
these bombers carry ordinance on the wings and were more likely to be using a different method than level bombing.
A20g's for instance were low level bombers mostly, using fast shallow diving attacks rather than level bombing from high alt.
the a20g doesnt have a bombsight either.
Ju88s were divebombers and so should be capable of doing what they were designed for.
the il2 is so slow that if you level bomb with it you'll be garenteed to be killed.You have to swerve around with this plane in order to get close enough.
easy solution eh ? :D
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Hazed. "As you seem to be in agreement the heavier bombers or those aircraft not designed for dive bombing are the major problem concerning "
I never said anything of the sort, infact i'm more concerned with jabo.
Anyway new thought on same item.
I could implement it this way.
Items are destroyed on impact.
If player dies do to self destruct, i.e. crash or own bomb blast, with in certain time target is restored.
HiTech
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Hitech Said:
I never said anything of the sort, infact i'm more concerned with jabo.
Well, that's a different problem altogether. I petition to rename the thread "On Suicide Attacks".:D
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Originally posted by hitech
Hazed. "As you seem to be in agreement the heavier bombers or those aircraft not designed for dive bombing are the major problem concerning "
I never said anything of the sort, infact i'm more concerned with jabo.
Anyway new thought on same item.
I could implement it this way.
Items are destroyed on impact.
If player dies do to self destruct, i.e. crash or own bomb blast, with in certain time target is restored.
HiTech
That still leaves the problem I mentioned earlier. When you have several jabo attacking a town it could be very frustrating.
One scenario: jabo 1 destroys town ack but is hit by last ack and crashes 10 secs later. Jabo 2 drops bombs on buildings near ack and would have killed ack also if the first jabo hadn't already taken it down. As jabo 2 egresses ack pops up and kills him.
If you're looking to prevent intentional suicide how about assining a perk penalty for dying within 20 seconds of destroying an object with a bomb.
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I would hate to see destroyed objects restored when a player dies. It seems so....gamey.
I really think BH's idea of penalizing the "suicidal" player by restricting his access to ordinance for a while is the best suggestion so far. It's not gamey, and fair. After all, in RL, dying in the attack would "restrict" one's future.
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Originally posted by hitech
I could implement it this way.
Items are destroyed on impact.
If player dies do to self destruct, i.e. crash or own bomb blast, with in certain time target is restored.
HiTech
You are saying then this would not include death to AAA or death from another player?
As to another post above regarding several jabo attack a town - this would also then put a limitation on the "Lemming" attacks of the 1,000 plane gangers, 5 people would not want to dive in on same target. Oh, I dunno - I can hear the whines already - but then this might put some peer pressure on mission players to learn to bomb correctly.
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Originally posted by hitech
Anyway new thought on same item.
I could implement it this way.
Items are destroyed on impact.
If player dies do to self destruct, i.e. crash or own bomb blast, with in certain time target is restored.
HiTech
Definitely makes it more workable for combined attacks. Does it have to be 30 seconds tho'? Am I misreading the issue, or does the definition of a suicide Jabo here equal someone who dives, drops and augers (as opposed to someone who gets too low and is a ripe target for ack on egress? If you're just trying to eliminate suicides into the dirt/drink, then I think 5 or 10 secs would be plenty. Or am I missing something?
SOB
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The time is to do just that SOB, the 30 secs was just an example.
HiTech
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Originally posted by hazed-
and what about the a20g? the il2? the ju88?
these bombers carry ordinance on the wings and were more likely to be using a different method than level bombing.
A20g's for instance were low level bombers mostly, using fast shallow diving attacks rather than level bombing from high alt.
Exactly. These plane could/did dive bomb and therefore should be allow to continue to do so.
My $ .02 on the Suicide JABO issue is to simply leave it alone. Not that it's not frustrating, but any solution becomes very gamey.
In fact, I've always thought it was lame that crashing into a GV doesn't kill it. This is not a tactic that I choose to employ, but if I screw up my attack and pancake into the target, I at least want the satisfaction of knowing that I didn't die alone. (And in-flight crashes cause damage).
The only thing that comes to mind is that solo suicide attacks aren't an issue, rather it's the organized gang bangs. So some way of taking the K/D and Damage/Death ratio of the whole mission and parceling it out to the participants would discourage participation in those type of missions.
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cc, you've convinced me then. For some reason the 30 seconds seemed like an eternity, especially if the target didn't blow up right away.
Now that I approve, you may continue with the implimentation. ;)
SOB
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The AK's have been accused of milkrunning in the past (not our fault if no one wants to defend their base). We've done it many times with as few as two planes or as many as 10+.
My point is that we have it down to a routine. Occasionally the town ack will get the first jabo in even though he kills it before crashing. If the "reup" rule doesn't apply to acks then I have no problem with it.
Something else to consider. How about the object (less acks) are restored only when the killer reups? Say within a 5-10 minute window.
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Originally posted by AKIron
Something else to consider. How about the object (less acks) are restored only when the killer reups? Say within a 5-10 minute window.
That might be a twist to it, takes player out of the game - but it is voluntary. This would have to apply to damaged but not destroyed objects alsol - any damage would need to be reversed as well.
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Originally posted by AKIron
My point is that we have it down to a routine. Occasionally the town ack will get the first jabo in even though he kills it before crashing. If the "reup" rule doesn't apply to acks then I have no problem with it.
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OT: You should not jabo AAA anyway (much less die to it). Use your guns and live.
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Sounds like a great idea, and as a reward for a non-sucidal jabo run it would be great if right after you drop your ord a virtual vagina appears at 10k...then if your able to knife edge thru it without touching the sides your plane would instantly rearm.:p
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Originally posted by Turbot
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OT: You should not jabo AAA anyway (much less die to it). Use your guns and live.
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It's usually a combination, not sure if Hitech plans to discriminate between objects killed by bombs/rockets and guns.
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The answer is simple. Only reward Perk Points for succesfully landed sorties, in any plane/vehicle. And make more items requiring perk points no matter how small the cost.
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Originally posted by hitech
If player dies do to self destruct, i.e. crash or own bomb blast, with in certain time target is restored.
If I am flying to cap & jabo a field, I see a VH go down, then direct my ord to different target, I don't want to turn around X seconds later to see the VH up again cuz someone self destructed.
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HT,
I can't disagree more with the idea of targets "popping" back into life.
A bomb is dropped, an item is destroyed, it is broken until Repaired. It fixes itself in 15 minutes and that is magic enough.
Pilot restraint is what you want. Make the player very much not want to die. Incentive or punishment.
...like maybe an "Attack" perk category. To get "Attack Perks" you must select Attack for that sorty. All attack ordinance costs perks, except gun ammo. If you die within 0-5 seconds of pickle and are not hit by enemy fire, you lose 2-3 perks (for suicide/auger) + however many perks used to buy ordinance at begining of flight.
At any point in flight, or after you have succesfully dropped, you may switch to Fighter sorty, if ordinance is still attached, it is immediately jettisoned and not armed. Dying now has no affect in "Attack Perks".
If you get to 0 perks, you must do attack sorties with only guns to earn enough to get a small bomb and so on.
Don't make a cheeze. This "time of survival" thingy, is about as goofy as AW no HO crap.
F.
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Disagree -- when a bomb or bullet is released, it is independent of what happens to its releaser.
WWII had not only kamikazes, but other pilots who for one reason or another (doomed plane, doomed body, accuracy desperation) fixated on targets to point of self destruction. It's a fact of life that should not be modified in Aces High.
However, while most WWII fighters could take stress of suicide dives, doubtful if most horitzontal bombers or transports could. The old Air Warrior used to model A-26 wings coming off if used in fighter manuevers.
Why not take another look at G stresses acceptable to horizontal bombers (yes, and even C-47) to see if at least they could not do radical suicide dives and other manuevers (if they already are thus limited, pardon me since I'm unaware because I don't try such stunts with them).
Speaking of such dives, why not also try the other approach and model the destructive impact aircraft would have impacting the ground (or target) with x amount of fuel and x amount of armament? The aircraft loss of control when severely damaged is already well modelled, but not the impact when the airframe in whatever condition hits the ground.
Let's face it -- suicide bombing IS an option. I deplore horizontal bomber formations diving on targets, but that COULD have been done and indeed might have been done in isolated incidents in WWII.
Bomber formations are still such easy targets that this defensive aspect needs more adjustment than preventing abuse of present diving capabilities.
To me a more flagrant abuse of game modelling is C-47s ejecting paratroops in more precise but absurd vertical pullups instead of realistically stringing them out in horizontal drops. How about making paratroopers unable to bail if the C-47 angle is more than 10 degrees off level flight (just as torpedos are only effective if dropped at near level attitude)?
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Originally posted by hitech
If player dies do to self destruct, i.e. crash or own bomb blast, with in certain time target is restored.
HiTech
..also gotta worry about those low on skill who accidentally rip thier wings off in the dive. I give them an 'e' for effort, but they didn't intend to game the system. The damage from their bombs should count.
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sounds good hitech but how about only applying it no non buffs that can carry the bomb load and only to bombs...that way suicide attacking osties will still take the buggers out
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Originally posted by stynger
perking bomb loadouts would have the largest effect on the people who cant afford them. is it fair to limit the gameplay of a newbie because of a few lamers?
A few? Oh thats rich.
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Originally posted by Preon1
..also gotta worry about those low on skill who accidentally rip thier wings off in the dive. I give them an 'e' for effort, but they didn't intend to game the system. The damage from their bombs should count.
Why? Just because? We all gotta learn somehow.
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tumor,i was only trying to be poliite. however,i still feel the same nomatter how many do the sicide thing.
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How about having only Japanese fighter's bombs registering damage on ships?(and bombers)..They were the only ones to do suicide runs..Might see some "Divine Wind" missions as it would take quite a few sucessful drops to sink a ship.
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Originally posted by Tumor
Why? Just because? We all gotta learn somehow.
Learning in AH can be frustrating, especially in the MA where the curve is so VERY steep. Many newbies need every little victory they can get their hands on or they lose interest. This means that if a newbie augers in a P-38 because he/she forgot to engage dive flaps, there should still be that little 'pickmeup' when the Host registers a destroyed object.
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"This means that if a newbie augers in a P-38 because he/she forgot to engage dive flaps, there should still be that little 'pickmeup' when the Host registers a destroyed object."
I agree. Just restrict him to rockets and/or 100 lb. bombs for one hour afterward. Not to much of a "punishment", but would prevent the "die and repeat" suicide attacks that march across the landscape.
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Targets respawing if a pilot dies is beyond gamey, and a terrible idea in my opinion.
Like some others have said, there are times when coordinated raids take place, in which ordinance will be dropped on a secondary target when the primary is destroyed. How would you feel if you dropped on your secondary only to find the primary *poof* reappeared because your squaddie compressed in his dive.
I hate this idea.
Perk Bombs. Where do we start? 0 thats where. You've got towns and acks and GVs that you can kill with gunfire. When you take out targets with your guns, your 0 ordinance perks becomes 10 Ordinance perks or whatever (As long as the mission is in Attack Sortie mode).
You'll build ordinance perks in no time flat, and have plenty to spare. Don't come home from the mission? No perks given, and the ones you spent are lost. Did'nt mean to lawn dart? Too bad, be more careful. Got hit by ack, enemy fighter, etc? Lose half the perks spent on your loadout. Hit the ground and lose them all.
Option 2:
Penalty Box. Hit the ground, no soup.....errr ordinance for you for 5 mintues, 10 miuntes, 30 minutes...3 weeks whatever.
Either way has to be better than the Magic respawn effect.
On a positive note, HT, it is extremely refreshing to see a developer (Hell, CEO) publicly ask the opinion of his customers before making a change.
WTG!
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Resotring a building or whatever u just bombed an u die is mega gamey.
IMO the best way would be to perk all large bombs.
If u return u get ur points back if u hit something and stay allive the next 30 sec (for example) u get em back also. Otherwise they are lost.
Make planes designed as level bombers not be able to release bombs on negative G's and only let em release the bombs in the bombsight.
In real life the B17 bombardier steared the plane on the final approach. (Wasnt it. Thats what i read)
Anyway restoring something that has been bombed and was destroyed wont make it and will end in mega whines and confusion about what was destroyed and so on.
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Best suggestion I've seen so far is 'rationing' of ordanance on a time basis vs landed basis.
IE, you get 4000lb's of fighter ordanance per hour, however you may hot re-arm as much as you like.
This would prevent the repeat offenders, which I think are they people we really want to stop.
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Time delay as first suggested make the most sense, is the easiest to implement and is adjustable.
The "graphic" bomb explodes, but "damage" is on hold for the time alloted.
Suicide jabo's could probably be done with a window of 10 seconds or less.
Five seconds could probably take care of it.
Let's not reinvent the wheel here..
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I like HT,s idea if you die within say 10 seconds from bomb blast or impacting the deck no kills for you.
I do note most seem concerned with seeing the target being blown up then popping back up seconds later.
Now more work for HT but if a cloud of smoke or dust came up and obscures the target at ordnance impact for the required time period ONLY hey thats just added realism in my book.
If implemented like this it would be perfectly reasonable to wait a few seconds to be able to assess damage before seeing if a secondary attack on target is required.
You have the action taken against suicide attacks and a method of increasing realism and stopping complaints about seeing the target die then pop back up.
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>>I'd like to see some system where the bombs wont drop if you are past a certain AoA. <<
Go ya one better, and simpler:
make sure the plane eg. 4 engine buffs break up as they should at AoA they were not constructed to fly at.
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Watch that AoA stuff fellas! You have already been warned!
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>>In terms of penalizing suicide bombers <<
Heres an idea! How about letting the suicide dweeb in a 4 engine bomber die becuz his plane broke apart in a dive his plane wasn't designed to make?!!
Hmm not very practical cuz the dive bombing buff dweeb would get mad cuz his plane broke apart (as it should have).
Conclusion: methinks there is something very wrong with the gene pool :(
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>>How about all external ords become a PERK <<
Sheesh! you guys'd perk anything!
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I don't think this is a good way to fix the problem.
I'd suggest perking 1000lb or larger bombs on fighters (say, 5 points each and you only get the points back if you land with the bombs still attached to your aircraft) and having an angle limiter for bomb releases from level bombers.
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Here is an idea:
If a player dies due a suicide attack (suicide attack according to your definition), then the system registers the event.
When the player tries to respawn at the field to do another run, the system gives a message that unable to take off from this field from X amount of time.
This does not prevent an initial suicide... however... the system could give a shorter rebuild time.
If you double the targets in an arena, you halve the effect of suicide pilots. If you X by 4 then their effect is only 25%.
No county at war puts all their eggs in one basket. The more you build, the less they can knock down.
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two stage bomb blasts............
If we assume that a bomb has two components
1) kinetic ( a big heavy thing hitting something)
2) chemical (an explosion)
Further if we assume that the kinetic = 10% (or what ever %) of the total energy and occurrs immediately upon impact but the chemical occurs "x" seconds after (in this case 90%)
We see that a crater is formed and a 100lb bomb still kills eg a gun pit even if it does not explode..............
occasionally there are dud's and by some co incidence these always seem to occur when the originator dies within seconds of impact..............
30 1000lb duds still kil a FH tho (if 10% is chosen)
the % and the delay should be arena adjustable...........so they can be switched off for scenarios etc...............
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__________________
HiTech
My new bribe link.
For the cheap skates
Damned youre shameless :rolleyes: :D
On the suicide dweebs I think you should go with that last
thought you had. Make the objects reup fast if you die within 15 seconds of your drop, IF YOU AUGER. How would that work on the CV tho? Sinking in reverse?
While your looking to improve gameplay do something about those danged Oswinds. I may send you a bottle myself. ;)
It would not hurt my rep as a cheapskate either....
Regards,
X2Lee
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>>Eskimo, can you cite some cases ? What type and and altitude ?
I'd like to read up on it.<<
Flying Bucaneers, author's name escapes me right now. It is about the fifth air force during WW2. They did a lot of innovation with the a/c they had, much of it was outdated stuff. They created strafing B25s, skip bombing techniques, para frags and much more. They also had B17s and B24s do low level skip bombing against shipping and airfields. At no point did I read any account of dive bombing by four engine bombers.
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On the realism side limiting dive angles (btw guys please stop using the word Angle of attack to meen the current dive/climb angle) for bomb drop is just as unrealistic as bomb delay
HT, I was thinking that the limit on angle would apply to bombers with bay doors. Wouldn't the bombs need to be able to fall out of the doors fairly level less you be releasing bombs forward into the bay instead of out?
Not that I know anything about the subject.....just curious.
Thanks
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i HAVE the solution! Any Norden-equipped plane cannot drop eggs unless autopilot is on--which it WOULD be if ya were in F6 position. (screw the 88's!)
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Originally posted by Don
>>Eskimo, can you cite some cases ? What type and and altitude ?
I'd like to read up on it.<<
Flying Bucaneers, author's name escapes me right now. It is about the fifth air force during WW2. They did a lot of innovation with the a/c they had, much of it was outdated stuff. They created strafing B25s, skip bombing techniques, para frags and much more. They also had B17s and B24s do low level skip bombing against shipping and airfields. At no point did I read any account of dive bombing by four engine bombers.
Well, there's of course Polesti, B-24's hitting the infamous oil refinery on the deck.
I've had a copy of Jablonski's "Airwar" since I was a kid. In it are a series of pics of B-25s skip bombing merchant ships. Those guys came in VERY low. (I'm going to have to go look now :) )
Certainly the majority of of bomber missions were run at higher altitudes, but a fair share were run at low alts. And I've also read about strat bombing from as high as 30+ K.
P.S.
I haven't ever read about 4 engined ships dive bombing either, nor do I think it should be quite as easy as it is in AH.
Low, yes.
Dive bombing, no.
eskimo
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In Wing Leader, Johnnie Johnson recounts Lancasters bombing motorized columns and making strafing runs in Normandy.
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Originally posted by funkedup
In Wing Leader, Johnnie Johnson recounts Lancasters bombing motorized columns and making strafing runs in Normandy.
Speaking of Lancasters,
How about those Dam-Busters!
Talk about multi-engined suicide dweebs!
(Just kidding, with all due respect)
eskimo
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Originally posted by hitech
Been toying with the idea that ordanance has little or no effect if you are not still living for a given period of time (around 30 secs) after impact.
What do you gents think?
HiTech
I don't like it.
I think stopping suiciders might mean you have to give their virtual life some value. Disincentives to rapidly repeated dying and respawning.
Keep track of "suicides / time" using the condition above (if you are not still living for a given period of time after impact). Have the system give a warning and then if they keep doing it, take away perk points or let them only spawn a 202 or a Hurri I or something like that.
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Originally posted by hitech
Anyway new thought on same item.
I could implement it this way.
Items are destroyed on impact.
If player dies do to self destruct, i.e. crash or own bomb blast, with in certain time target is restored.
I don't think it's a good idea to undo damage.
Maybe it's possible to inhibit explosion of the bomb if at the moment of explosion death is inevitable for the player who dropped the bomb?
Inevitable death could be calculated from
a) player within expected blast radius of the bomb
b) output of a map of dive angle, speed and height exceeds a limit.
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Originally posted by hitech
<< What do you gents think? >>
Don't care for the idea... If you drop them they should explode regardless if you're there to see the results or not. (reality)
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how about the buildings dont reup but the score and perks for the player who died are not given and a virtual black mark is received.
if a player gets 5 black marks then he is restricted to 250lb bombs for a set time or even banned from using any bombs for a set time (maybe a week or a day or something?)
possibly also a public announcement in text like ' has just suicided his aircraft. black marks=xxx' X being the number of marks they have in total over their entire career.
maybe this will be enough to embarrass players into stopping? :)
'hazed has suicided his aircraft. black marks= 256' would sure make me feel stupid ;) hehe
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Originally posted by Quick
Originally posted by hitech
<< What do you gents think? >>
Don't care for the idea... If you drop them they should explode regardless if you're there to see the results or not. (reality)
Not singling you out Quick, but having seen this opinion a number of times in this thread I thought I'd make a small statement to all...
I find this simply to be the ultimate defensive statement of the suicide bomber.
The "reality" of the situation would dictate that if the pilot dies, the chances are his bombs are off to at least some degree anyway... probably quite a bit. Even today, even GPS guided bombs are not 100% accurate. LGB's? Dead pilot means no hit (unless you have a dude lazing from the ground or a buddy laze)
Why not have (oh gosh.. force) people to learn to place thier bombs with some level of skill and accuracy combined with the goal of staying alive? There are plenty of alternatives to Aces High if dying has ~no~ bearing (other than score).
If not the MA... I dearly hope the mission theatre brings with HiTech's idea.
The suicide bomber (abuser) needs to be dealt with. IMHO I don't really care if a few bombs don't make it to target.
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Why do some of you THINK bombsites don't work. I'll bomb HQ from 30k and hit my targets, If you fly bomber and bombsite doesn't work see me.
I killed 7 cv's in 2 hrs today Not one was suicide attack landed all planes or was shoot down by con after.
you only have to be 8k to live during bombrun on cv. ^k is close you'll get bombs off but 1 or more planes die.
There are alot of bombers in here that know how to use bombsite. Because they took time to learn it.
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Originally posted by hitech
Been toying with the idea that ordanance has little or no effect if you are not still living for a given period of time (around 30 secs) after impact.
What do you gents think?
HiTech
I really dont like the idea of my bombs I drop from 20k (and take a good 30 seconcs to get to target) becoming nerf balls if I get killed afterwords.
I certainly understand that some aparently are abusing the current bombing system with suicide bombing attacks, but I dont think that solution would be the best one. I beleive a few things would really help reduce/eliminate the evils of suicide bombers.
[list=1]
- No negative G bomb drops
- No bomb drops from bomb bay from cockpit, ONLY from bombadier position (possible exception for TBM and such)
- Specialized armor piercing bombs, that do damage to capital ships, regular bombs do 1/4 damage or whatever, and restrict AP bombs from high alt bombers (giving the TBM and such a reason for being flown)
[/list=1]
I would just hate to see bombers neutered in the way you describe for many reasons, especially when you figure that it would make the Ostie a virtual impervious vehicle, he gets to keep firing after I hit him with my bomb for 30 seconds to kill me a negate my kill?
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HiTech:
I assume part of why you are looking at this way of implementing a negative impact on suicide jaboing is that it is easy to implement.
I am assuming that you would just add a timer function to the hangar object since you already pass CPID ( in order to credit perks) and bomb wieght ( or damage to apply) and it would just be a matter of the timer waiting until either X seconds expires or the pilot dies without a kill being awarded ( whatever state that may be)... quick question on this is that if somebody gets a proximity kill does the damage count since by logic a Kill has been awarded or do you cover that state as well.
Anyway, in terms of other ways to implement it, I assume that perking the bombs isn't a good option because that means you have to add the whole perk armament infrastructure which may be on your roadmap but not for 1.11.
Now assuming that the bomb object passes it's damage amount to the hangar or other target object as long as whatever arbitrator you use determines a "hit" has occured then perhaps the best trade-off between effort and desired effect would be to code in some internal fuzing into the bomb. The algorithm you use I'm not going to go into but the effect would be to have the damage value passed to the object be 0( or a reduced percentage of total damage) if fuzed=False. Easiest to implement would be altitude above target of release, but could also take in parameters for Plane speed to do the velocity model. Then force a return out of the fuzing mechanism (started at drop) when impact occurs and if True it counts, if false then no count. One or more extra parameters into the bomb object, no extra ones out. The other benefit would be that it naturally allows the jabo's to jabo and allows the buffs to buff.
In terms of the dive-bombing buffs, I think you can reach a good trade off by forcing the buffs to use the f6 sight IF they have one AND IF they have more than 2 engines. Would allow a single modification at a fairly high class in terms of inheriting code, avoids the whole internal versus external bombload issue, allows planes that were mixed level bomb and shallow attack to continue to be so and hopefully the same bomb modification mentioned above will keep them from doing the suicide jabo thang. In addition, none of the planes that lack this restriction carry a bombload high enough to kill a cv by themselves. Also keeps you from having to differ in the plane model the type of ordinance carried.
Hope this addresses it from you perspective hiTech.
ZPB
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PERK CHANNEL 1
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A whole lotta discussion about an issue that, IMO, can be simply rectified:
1. adjust the FM so 4 engined buffs can't dive bomb; they're not supposed to
2. suicide jabos; ya can't legislate how dweebs will game the game unless you penalize everyone else; simply unfair.
3. ditch the notions about perking bombs! Some would perk anything beyond all reason
4. the dweebs will be dweebs regardless of what you do. They are few in number, generally. They are the type who will milk a base until opposition arrives, then they will fade away.
Strangely enough, they are paying customers too. And it isnt just the new pilits who will suicide bomb things. I have gotten more lame excuses from self professed expert pilits for doing a kamikaze on a target, than anyone else.
I say, don't waste your energy HT. You have enough on your plate, and I would prefer your energies expended on more worthwhile pursuits related to the game.
Best wishes.
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My take, and as echoed by a few, is that once pickled, it should count and do damage. This too, might be effective as a Kamakazi as well. Not a good prospect, but it fits well with the realism in WWII. Carrier defenses will get most Kamakazis, but one or 2 might get thru!. BONZAI!
Back to reality............I vote that all ordnance expended prior to death is live and will hit or miss the objective. Arming at certain altitudes should not be considered relevant. If it was dropped, it was armed. Only nuclear weapons had that type of arming protocol, that I am aware of. And that was in the 60's, long after WWII. I could be wrong about that too. I was on a TitanII Missile Crew for 8 years..........I know my nukes :)
K-KEN
http://www.cutthroats.com/
(http://www.cutthroats.com/art/buttons/on_patch8Xs.gif)
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The idea of not awarding perk points to those who dont live is one I like.
Perk the bombs on fighters. Cheaply. Either the 1000s and maybe even the 500s, but not anything less. There is a money system in game, use it! 2 - 5 perks for a big bomb wont hurt the jaboers. Planes like the SBD, D3A, etc etc, will benefit from this as well because heavy ord for them wont be perked.
You have to find a way to promote living instead of penalizing dying. You find a way to make it much more worthwhile to live instead of suiciding, and you've solved your problem. Plus the solutions are much more realistic then some of the penalties I've read so far.
I hope you read this hitech, a lot of whines in this thread but Sunkings idea is the best i've seen.
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Simple,
When in a B17/lanc you can only drop bombs if you are in the [F6] bomber position, that way the plane will be level and if an attempt was made for a dive when you enter the bomber position it will mostlikly rip the wings off.
Problem: B17/Lanc dive bombing CV
Solution: Bombs can only be dropped from the F6 view
bomber position.
NEXT!! :D
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Reading most of the above my opinion would be as follows........ to combine HT's jabo concern with the kamikazi buff concern.
Add an attack perk column.............
If you load bombs (or rockets, or a cannon bigger than 30mm) you are in attack mode (no choice)
If you choose formation (or a 4 engined bomber)you are in bomber mode.
You pay a deposit for bombs at 500lbs and above (0.5 perk per 500 , 1 per 1000, etc) (from either your attack points or bomber points depending on your choice above) which is returned upon successful landing.
Drone load outs come free..........you only pay for yours.
If you are in bomber mode you can only release via f6 position.
So
1)persistant suicide jabo bombers end up being forced to use smaller bombs...... (they run out of attack perks) their effectiveness is reduced.
2)Formations and big bombers cant dive bomb....... and would tend toward more historically correct load outs.....
3)Non formation Ju88's, Bostons,B26's, arado's can dive bomb as attack planes.
4) The C47 would become an attack plane......which is sort of correct.
5)Yak9T, HurriIID and any future P39/Ju87G would always be attack AC.
6)Certain jabo's would always be forced to buy bombs unless the 100kg was available to the IJN/LWvariants and the 250llb to the typhoon.
7) The lanc would always have to buy bombs unless the 250llb was made available.
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CAnt you just make EVERY level bombers bombs non effective on the CV, so only dive bombers could take it out??
I dont recal any level bombers takeing out CV's in real life, i though it was only dive bombers?
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Don, thanks. I'll check out the 5th. I knew about Ploesti, they were sent in at 500 ft. or close to that altitude.
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Originally posted by KYridgeRunner
Simple,
When in a B17/lanc you can only drop bombs if you are in the [F6] bomber position, that way the plane will be level and if an attempt was made for a dive when you enter the bomber position it will mostlikly rip the wings off.
Problem: B17/Lanc dive bombing CV
Solution: Bombs can only be dropped from the F6 view
bomber position.
NEXT!! :D
KY I think the weight of this argument lies more with suicide JABO as opposed to heavies. I've only seen a few heavy bomber formations suicide run on CV's or even bases. It's the huge amount of JABO suicide planes that are the real problem (I've yet to see a CV NOT get hit by at least a few of these.. not to mention the Typh/Pony mass attacks).
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#1 Want it realistic? Go with no
#2 Want the suiciding to stop and the scoring games to begin? Go with yes.
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I did not read every post in this thread, so please forgive me if this is suggested elsewhere.
HT, rather than this approach why not simply make anything smaller then a 1k egg useless against CVs and cruisers? To see a Spitfire dive bomb or strafe a CV to death just seems wrong. To see a P38 make repeated rocket attacks appears likewise. Also, it would be nice if only direct hits with those same 1k eggs did full damage. I understand that 'under the hull' explosions would crack the hull, but I do not believe that near misses could sink a CV like they do here.
Also, I think the fleet ack needs to be just a tad more effective. Not the proximity weapons, but just the tracer type ack.
I did get so far as to see someone suggest limiting dive bombing angles for level bombers and that appears to have some merit.
Suicide attacks have thier place in desperation, but strafing attacks on a CV is very dweebish.
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Why are most of u guys speaking of realism ???
This is a game and will ever be a game.
The point is to make it more enjoyable for all of us. So we facing the situation that a new rule will be implemented.
Great is that we are involved and that our opinion is asked.
Do we want to have a quake arena or a kind of a simulator ?
IMO since the player base raised by so many new players we flying in a big worl where everybody is fragging around.
Due to the fact that, with the large ammount of new players, we have now very many players who doesnt care about the main Goal which is working together, instead the grab the first plane they cant click inthe hanger and hit the runway to fly to the target.
If we want to keep AH in the ways a Flight SIm should be and was before something need to be done.
ANd the way to limit ordinance and perk it so u have to take care about what u doing with it is the best IMO.
I would also like the idea to perk every bomb and u wouldnt get the points back even if u stay allive.
IN REAL WAR, lol, the bombs werent priceless.
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Perk the place he took off from.
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It has been said, and I agree, that the best way to limit the dweeby suicide behaviour is to place a penalty upon dieing.
Other games make you wait for the end of a round before respawning so why shouldn't we have something similar here?
If you want to take off from the same base you previously spawned from, apply the following:
5mins to respawn a fighter
10mins to respawn a bomber (takes longer to bomb up etc)
30 sec - 1 min to respawn a gv
If you want to use a different base, no wait time.
This will penalise people for suiciding and will have the added bonus of limiting vulching as a way to rack up heaps of kills...
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Originally posted by Blue Mako
This will penalise people for suiciding and will have the added bonus of limiting vulching as a way to rack up heaps of kills...
The other bonus is that I'd have a lot of free time after cancelling my AH account.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Blue Mako
and will have the added bonus of limiting vulching as a way to rack up heaps of kills...
Sorry mako, but this isn't a bonus :D
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Use a timer, i.e. the bomb has to be released and fall for 2 sec before it is armed, Just my two cents
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IMO kamakazi (intentional or not) runs are a valid tactic, just as continously spawning a capped field is just as suicidal.
IF a suicide run takes out a CV, then too bad for the defenders who didn't have a stout enough defence.
IN REAL WAR, lol, the bombs werent priceless.
Yeah...but since when did the crew have to pay for them?
There should be more encouragement for buffing, not less...like perking bombs or whatever :rolleyes: . It's hard enough to buff as is. Over a hot field...managing to balance the bombsite, and the guns...just to drop and get killed and have it mean nothing....
I've dive bombed GV's in a B-26 when in a jam...I should'nt be discouraged for having a go.
Give each side an allotment of ord, linked to a strategic supply .
Or simply change the ord. Give an option for armour piercing bombs, or HE. when it comes to the CV or just leave it as is....
Tronsky
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I agree that there are people who deliberately suicide in order to make sure they are going to hit their targets, but the only way I see of reducing the occurences of this is by punishing the player him/herself. The problem is in how you would determine the "intention" of the pilot. The only thing I can think of would be to penalize the pilot if they augered within a certain period of time after dropping the bombs, while at the same time they had not received sufficient damage to render them unable to avoid the ground. I don't know if it is possible/feasible to code this. The potential for the current proposal to punish those of us who have the dumb luck to get shot down while in the process of trying to extend from our bombing/jabo run, IMHO outweighs the benefits of stopping the suicide bombers.
I like the idea of limiting the ability of true level bomber to release their ordinance when they are in the bombsite only. This should eliminate the use of level bombers as dive bombers.
As far as perking bomb loads, I must say that I am against this for several reasons. First, this would potentially increase the number of jabo flights needed to take FH/BH/VH/ect down. Furthermore, I need 1k bombs to take out FlakPanzers and Panzers. Throw into this mix the upcoming Tiger tanks, and you have a reall need for being able to roll a jabo with 1k bombs on demand to take out enemy GVs. 500lb bombs don't seem to cut it when it comes to killing FPs/Mk4s; unless, that is, you land them practically on top of the target...something that I personally have a hard time doing consistently. That extra blast from the 1ks comes in really handy in near-miss situations.
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Originally posted by emodin
As far as perking bomb loads, I must say that I am against this for several reasons. First, this would potentially increase the number of jabo flights needed to take FH/BH/VH/ect down. Furthermore, I need 1k bombs to take out FlakPanzers and Panzers. Throw into this mix the upcoming Tiger tanks, and you have a reall need for being able to roll a jabo with 1k bombs on demand to take out enemy GVs.
But I think this is the whole point of the thread. HT is looking for a way to limit the effectiveness of the Suicide Bomber (be it Jabo or Level).
If you perk the ordinance, you somewhat force pilots to try and survive the Jabo attack. So you will not need more planes to Jabo a field. You can still load-out as you like, but you'll need to get you plane home, unless you want to lose the perks you paid for the bombs.
Run out of bomb perks, no more bombs. You'll have to up something with Cannons and use them to kill ground target to build up your Ordinance points. This is the only way I can see that will eliminate, or at least greatly reduce the suicides. Sooner of later, these pilots will run outta perks, and therefore be out of the suicide bomber business.
Use the GV perks we already have, if you like. (Have'nt really thought this through). We don't use them. Draw the ordinance perks from your attack perks.
I still think it's the best way to go.
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Originally posted by Heater
Use a timer, i.e. the bomb has to be released and fall for 2 sec before it is armed, Just my two cents
For an aircraft diving straight down at 400 mph, that's a minimum release altitude of about 1200 feet, and probably isn't going to give enough time for the releasing aircraft to pull out. For an aircraft flying level, that's a minimum release altitude of 65 feet, low enough to be destroyed by your bomb blast.
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ok..seems like answer to HT's question would then be:
1. buffs (except those with wing-mounted ordnance) can only release eggs from F6 spot.
2. fighters cant carry 1k's anymore.--if ya had to get kilt 37 times to wipe out CV..ya might think up some more sensical way of doing it
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Originally posted by hitech
Been toying with the idea that ordanance has little or no effect if you are not still living for a given period of time (around 30 secs) after impact.
What do you gents think?
HiTech
30 seconds is a LONG time if you are in dive bomb then strafe
mode...
I personally do not care for this sort of "fix" but
if you do implement it, a 3 - 5 second time should
be the setting, IMO
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uh...what was the problem again?
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Originally posted by emodin
500lb bombs don't seem to cut it when it comes to killing FPs/Mk4s; unless, that is, you land them practically on top of the target...something that I personally have a hard time doing consistently. That extra blast from the 1ks comes in really handy in near-miss situations.
this is another area where we see a poor reaction from the AH damage model.
If you look at what a real 500lber does you would only be too aware that no WW2 tank would survive even a near miss with these bombs.During the Normandy campaign the allies bombed the German front lines and there were quotes from soldiers that said even the 60 tonne tiger tanks were 'thrown around like matchboxes'.
we have no such effect in AH.So rather than rely on 1000lbers to get a kill with a near miss we should be able to do the same easily with even 500lbs.a near miss would more than likely throw the tank into the air.
what you should remember emodin is that you like most of the AH players consider it a waste of time to suicide bomb and probably dislike its growing use? well you should remember that if you do survive most of your attacks you will gain perks effectively MOST of the time and so you shouldnt ever come to the point where you are out of ordinance.
sure there will be times you will lose perks to an unfortunate death, but the majority of the time you will land and gain perks.However the player with the suicide mentality will be forced to TRY to live or they wont get any more bombs.
Also the 30 second limit wouldnt work too well for those that would drop their bombs from higher up fly away for 30 seconds and then auger and grab another plane.Theres nothing to stop them doing this over and over unless we use perk points to control it.
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Originally posted by hazed-
Theres nothing to stop them doing this over and over unless we use perk points to control it.
I am of the opinion that such people don't care about score or perks, else they already wouldn't do it. They do it to accomplish a specific task. Until you address the ends, there is little adjustment to the means that will matter.
Sure you could make people earn perks for bombs - but new players don't have perks. The entry level in this game is steep enough without adding another hurdle for them. New players need to be accomodated or else they won't turn into old players.
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Originally posted by Blue Mako
It has been said, and I agree, that the best way to limit the dweeby suicide behaviour is to place a penalty upon dieing.
Other games make you wait for the end of a round before respawning so why shouldn't we have something similar here?
If you want to take off from the same base you previously spawned from, apply the following:
5mins to respawn a fighter
10mins to respawn a bomber (takes longer to bomb up etc)
30 sec - 1 min to respawn a gv
If you want to use a different base, no wait time.
This will penalise people for suiciding and will have the added bonus of limiting vulching as a way to rack up heaps of kills...
This idea seems the perfect balance.
David "StracCop"
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Originally posted by hitech
Been toying with the idea that ordanance has little or no effect if you are not still living for a given period of time (around 30 secs) after impact.
What do you gents think?
HiTech
I think that this thread is to make us busy discussing something, instead of asking for 1.11 ever 5 seconds. :) I think HT is just trolling.
If not, if HT is serious, what are really considerations beyound this idea? May be we need to discuss them first.
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Originally posted by Turbot
Sure you could make people earn perks for bombs - but new players don't have perks. The entry level in this game is steep enough without adding another hurdle for them. New players need to be accomodated or else they won't turn into old players.
That's avalid point Turbot. But remember, when starting MOST online games, you don't automatically get fitted with the most effective weapons. (Look at quake, half life, etc).
So why should AH be any different?
Come into AH, you can't fly a perk plane. You have to earn it. So in the concept we've proposed, you come into AH with 0 Ordinance Perks. You earn them by destoying ground targets in attack mode with you Cannons/MGs. There's plenty of targets that are ripe for this. Towns, Field Guns, some GVs, Barracks, Convoys, etc.
Fly a few attack sorties, kill some ground targets, and earn some ordinance points, and you get your 100 lbers. Move up from there. Hell, if you like, make 100 lb bombs free.
By the way, and Aircraft destroyed while in Attack mode, are still credited to the Attack Perks, not Ord. perks.
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Haven't read through any of the post excpet for some of the first. I agree with Revvin though, if you drop, and they hit but you die, they should still hit. Don't take away some of the realism in the game please.
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Just because a problem is perceived , does NOT mean a problem truly exists . Attempting to fix a perceived problem will only bring chaos .
I don't see a problem here .
Except .... that every 'fix' suggested so far is going to affect ME as an attack pilot . I don't Suicide JABO or milk run . Ever . But i don't manage to land my A-20 very often when running missions into defended bases . i have YET to live through a dive bomb run on a CV due to the fierce ack . Suicide is never my intention . It's just that with high risk sorties , survivability is rare . So why do all the whiney fighter jocks wanna further hamper my ability to do my job ? perk this ...timer that . PLEASE resist the temptation to further alter the code to appease these ..um ..er.. fine gentlemen .
HTC , you have a fine product . thank you for the game and your attention .
Reverend Max
Chaplain - 13th SAS
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Originally posted by RvrndMax
....So why do all the whiney fighter jocks wanna further hamper my ability to do my job ? ...
Reverend Max
Chaplain - 13th SAS
Because the suicide tactics hamper the fun of fighter pilots by removing resources necessary to fly.
Any ONE dork can kill a hangar, fuel, etc. depriving MANY of a good time.
If you wanna have that power, you should have some restrictions. Checks and balances.
F.
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Actually, Furious....it only deprives the ENEMY of a good time...and THAT IS THE POINT OF #@$@#$@ WAR!
thank you, that is all for now.
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Doubtful HT & co couldn't code a difference between dying from the suicide run and dying on a bomb run just gone bad.
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Simple,
When in a B17/lanc you can only drop bombs if you are in the [F6] bomber position, that way the plane will be level and if an attempt was made for a dive when you enter the bomber position it will mostlikly rip the wings off.
Problem: B17/Lanc dive bombing CV
Solution: Bombs can only be dropped from the F6 view
bomber position.
NEXT!!
If you could only drop bombs from a level bomber from F6....in a scenario, how would a bomber group drop on the lead plane if you cant' see the lead plane (seeing how you would only be able to drop whilst in F6)?
Tronsky
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You'd do it by radio command.... someone says "3,2,1 drop."
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I can't believe I read all this loong thread...
Best ideas so far, IMO of course:
1. Limit "free bombs" on Jabos to 500lbs max. Anything heavier than that, you pay "bomb perks", which you can earn by dropping the smaller ones on target.
2. F6 brings autolevel on
3. Improve damage model regarding bomb blasts
I think implementing these 3 points would solve the problem.
Daniel
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Originally posted by hitech
I never said anything of the sort, infact i'm more concerned with jabo.
Anyway new thought on same item.
I could implement it this way.
Items are destroyed on impact.
If player dies do to self destruct, i.e. crash or own bomb blast, with in certain time target is restored.
HiTech
Wow 2 pages back and people are still concerned about level bombers.
If I read your reply correctly, HiTech, this fix would apply to jabos (this would include Lancs & 17's that thought they were jabo's) and only if the attacking craft impacted the ground, self-destructed, or flew into the bomb blast within a specified amount of time- NOT AAA or enemy fire.
Seems to be a perfect solution. All that's left is to figure what amount of time after the bomb release would include 90% or so of the lawndarts or bomb blast victims.
I think this a good solution to a difficult problem.
Count me in! :D
Jeff
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Did all the jabo planes here actually HAVE 1 k eggs available?...was in Dayton, OH at Air Force museum today..it said P47 could carry 500's......?
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I routinely sink the enemy battleship and the only thing that has killed me so far has been CAP or the 5" guns. Theres a way to do it and a way to dweeb it. If your dying in the ack or hitting the water your a suicide dweeb.
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Dive-bombers were a real threat in World War II, and they should be a threat here too. We all know about the Japanese kamikaze, but the U.S. had some suicide pilots as well. Anyone ever heard of Henderson airfield? It was named after a U.S. pilot who purposely dove his aircraft into a Japanese cruiser. One of the Kennedys was killed while he was flying a B17, loaded with high explosives, that he planned to crash into a German target (bailing out a bit before the actual crash though).
Suicide Jabos-keep'em, they are realistic.
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I hate jabo, but I can't hit anything level bombing, so I jabo.
Don't mess with suicide bombing. Go back to working on level bombing.
I suggest restoring bombsites to as they were before calibration. Keeping randomness and wind, if you must.
To counter bomber effectiveness, maybe bombers could have a distinctive radar blip differentiating the bombers from fighters. Seeing the blip on dar would give defenders an opportunity to grab alt like crazy.
Level bombing is now hopeless. Therefore, suicide jabos.
HONK!
Gooss
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Returning level bombers to the old method wont help. Tonight I filmed a wave of suicide pilots that all came in P38s at 15k and everyone of them dove into the carrier deck. None of them tried to pull up and they all died. The fourth one sank the cv but that didnt stop them because they had fifteen planes and they all suicided on the fleet. These were rooks which is surprising because the fleet went to knights when it sank and rooks always taunt bishops about suicide. Later on I watched a lone spitifre strafe a battleship over and over until it sank. It took him forever but he kept at it until it worked. Weekends bring out the most talented pilots.
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Allah Akbar!
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all you need is bomb attrition at the fields
small field has enough ord to kill a small field
3 fh 2 bh 1 vh = 12000
ord resupplies every 30 min maybe link it to the convoys so a counter strike could involve destroying the resupply trucks to prevent follow up attacks by jabos.
at med field you wold have enough to drop a med field
at a large you would have enough to drop a large etc......
This slows down those 50 man suicide auger raids and spreads it out. Folks would need to plan raids from the right type of field or multi fields to achieve their goals and make descisions between killing the twn or the fhs etc.
There will still be plenty of guns to strafe stuff down.
Nobody really cares if folks wanna kill themselves but if they rise their bombs in and miss or if they dont arm the suicide it may end up fediddlein up their mission.
Any time delay on damage or auger = rebuild time is too gamey.
The problem here may be if ht cant seperate ord avail to jabos from bombers. Bombers are rare enough and we dont wanna discourage their use so they should get ord at will. Also 1 bomber formation could eat up all the ord at a field.
Even my suggestion may end up being a half assed fix that gets gamed by jabos timing their drop to coincide with the 30 min resupply so they can auger in grab some more ord and rush back to the field.
Rebuild time for hangers is what 15min? This may force the attackers to use a bit more strategy.
Or it will get gamed like everything else.
Bombers should have a restriction on releasing bombs only in the bombsite except for the a20 / b26 / ju88 / ar 234 / tbm etc
This may help and maybe we could move on to long range gunnery next :)
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Yep, make bomb supply for fighters finite and fragile . Also make bases less vulnerable to fighterbombers and make towns larger . I think you and pyro have allready said that you planned on making towns larger in order to necesitate the employement of level bombers .
I don't like the idea of bombs magically dissappearing when the plane dies .
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Say your going in on target at 300 mph, you'd be doing roughly 441 ft/ sec son within 10 sec your pretty well outta ack range so set it at 10 sec. your bombs would have hit well before the 10 sec point so that would take care of the suicide rides.
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seems like a lot of work for such a simple problem... It would be easy to have a perk system for the heavier bombs for fighter/bomber... easy to understand... A 500 lb bomb costs so many fighter/bomber perks... you only have so many... you don't get more until you survive a jobo missun with free small bombs.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
seems like a lot of work for such a simple problem... It would be easy to have a perk system for the heavier bombs for fighter/bomber... easy to understand... A 500 lb bomb costs so many fighter/bomber perks... you only have so many... you don't get more until you survive a jobo missun with free small bombs.
lazs
HiTech has already said he didn't want to use perk points.
I also believe that the only thing he wishes to use for criteria to cancel the static target destruction is a collision with the ground/object or the bomb blast itself within a defined period of time. It makes sense to me.
:D
Jeff
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Originally posted by hitech
Been toying with the idea that ordanance has little or no effect if you are not still living for a given period of time (around 30 secs) after impact.
What do you gents think?
HiTech
Good idea. Apply that also to aerial kills. You score a "potential" kill, if still alive after 30 seconds, kill is confirmed.
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Does anyone know WHICH fighters actually are known to have carried a single 1k egg..much less 2? I dont think all of the ones here could do that..no proof tho. Also...I gun cv's a LOT...and tand to notice the kills seem most often done by A20's of late.
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Originally posted by Alpo
(one little squirt of 7.92 shouldn't be able to kill a gun position)
But it will kill the gunner...
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Originally posted by davidpt40
Suicide Jabos-keep'em, they are realistic.
Fine, anyone augering or dying after (magic number) of bomb release + AoA...gets removed fro the game for 60+ minutes.
You wanna die for your country via kamizaze, fine. But accept a penalty for it.
Gaming the game is ruining AH.
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Originally posted by hitech
Been toying with the idea that ordanance has little or no effect if you are not still living for a given period of time (around 30 secs) after impact.
What do you gents think?
HiTech
Sorry HiTech, I don't like the idea - that was one of the worst features of AW. The penalty would be suffered by friendlies on missions who lose that ordnance. I do like Eagl's idea - setting a minimum time-of-flight after release to give bombs enough time to arm before impact. That way, if someone tries to suicide with bombs he'd get nowhere, but those who do play honestly would still have their bombs live if they buy it on the way out.
Cheers,
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to answer the original question (with the 30 sec delay)
NO thanks :)
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the only real reason qwhy people suicide bomb is because there bombers can carry as much or more than all real bombers except the lancaster and the b17...possibly b26 but not by much...at the end of the day its just faster and they can do more damage...the best thing to do would be to weaken bombs dropped from fighters and strengthen the damage done by bombs dropped by real bombers
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I don't like that perk the bombs approach. As pointed out this will make it necessary for more planes to take part in a base capture. Since the other half of the base capture complaint is "steamrolling", doesn't having more planes there compound this issue?
Also, it takes newbies quite awhile to get perks going. I have been playing for I think like 3 months now and I still don't have that many perk points. If you start "charging" for bombs you cut out all the newbs that keep the game fresh and replace those that tire of it.
I DO like the angle of attack on heavies and survive til bombs hit for damage on JABOs approach. I think these are probably the best way to go.
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Originally posted by hitech
Been toying with the idea that ordanance has little or no effect if you are not still living for a given period of time (around 30 secs) after impact.
What do you gents think?
HiTech
This could get weird if a GV got killed but didn't blow until 30 seconds later, worse if it popped back to life. Also, there are many who do a proper job of dive bombing but get honestly killed by AA or another plane right after the drop.
I think the best way to go would be to penalize those who auger right after the drop by restricting their access to bombs for a period of time... maybe 15 or 30 minutes. That would at least take care of the pork and repeat dweeb... the worst case.
I also think killshooter should be changed to a penalty type thing... like allow friendly damage, but give the shooter no bullets for a time period, that increases with repetition. This would not only cut down on spraying, but piss off the guy that got shot... some community justice might follow =o)
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Originally posted by gatso
Or... One I just thought of.
For buffs with a bombsite only allow bombs to be released from the bombsite view. (auto level - no dive bombing)
May stop the most extreme cases.
Gatso
This is a great idea, and would hinder those stupid suicide CV bombers.
Have many films, as Im sure many do, of 17s ect. doing run after run on a CV until it gets sunk.
<> All
Jeffer
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Removing an option is not a good idea. CV's that have CAP over them aren't nearly as likely to be sunk. It's just as dweeby to have CV pilots doing Airfield attacks only, with no thought to protection of the CV. It didn't happen then and shouldn't happen now. No change is necessary.