Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: weazel on December 02, 2002, 05:34:10 PM
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"This project sends a message that every American should find repugnant," he said. "Namely, that politicians and bureaucrats view America as a sea of criminal suspects whose private behavior must be tracked, catalogued, and analyzed, just in case they commit a crime. So much for the presumption of innocence and the right to privacy."
Read the article. (http://www.lp.org/lpnews/0301/surveillance.html)
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Nothing wrong with this unless youre a criminal.
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You've got to be joking.
There are no systems of oversight or accountability contemplated in the TIA project.
Have you ever heard that "knowledge is power"?
Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Nothing wrong with this unless youre a criminal.
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Everythings going fine, nothing to worry.
Just stay calm, close your windows, don't talk to strangers, don't make jokes about your governmet, talk quietly because your neighbour may be listening... obey...
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The Stasi used a huge network of informants to repress the citizens of East Germany. It was not uncommon for members of families to spy on each other for fear of blackmail, as a result of physical threats and even because of monetary rewards from the secret police force. In the late ‘80s, the Stasi had nearly 175,000 official informants on their books, roughly one informant for every 100 people. (Some estimate the size of the “unofficial” Stasi informant force as nearly 10 times this level.) The Stasi maintained a force of over 90,000 uniformed and plain-clothes agents.
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Nothing wrong with this unless youre a criminal.
I prefer the presumption of innocence rather than guilt.
There is hope. (http://www.registerguard.com/news/2002/11/26/1a.patriotact.1126.html)
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Sandakaur. Your youth is showing....
Those willing to trade freedom for security deserve neither..true then, true now.
HC
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The homeland security act has already taken care of our concerns the Feds are watching your e-mail amoung just a few little things!
Bush will be King just ask the dope IQ of 70 and President sweet jesus we'll hire any idiot.
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Jack booted thugs (whether they be goverment agents or not) can't kick down the doors of U.S. citizens at their leisure. Unlike the weaklings of Europe, U.S. citizens are for the most part armed.
Even when in the wrong, when U.S. citizens take a stand, they are a formidable force. Ruby Ridge and the Branch Davidian are examples of this.
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Seriously, I'd like to see some of our Republican friends view on this.
In the past, they've been staunch in their opinion that "those willing to trade freedom for security deserve neither" as expressed earlier.
I hope (and I'll be dearly disappointed if it isn't the case) that they'll express the same outrage now as then.
Using 'security' as a reason, you're being (as are we) slowly stripped of rights. More and more supervised.
I don't buy the 'nothing to worry about if you're a law abiding citizen' argument. I do not WANT the government to know exactly where I am. I do not want them to tape my phone calls and read my mail. I do not want to be guilty until proven otherwise, and then still supervised because I could change.
SO please. I've dewveloped respect for several Republicans (as well as dems) on this board. Don't tell me you've changed because it's a Republican administration that are implementing this. So far, only known liberals have spoken out against this.
If you've changed, let me hear your reasons. That would be a major bummer; sort of a mega break in personal integrity :(
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"Of course, you don't have to fear or be opposed to this project if you have nothing to hide."
This is the way our would-be supervisors always justify taking away more and more freedom (and I'm not even talking the USA here, Euroland has it's own Enfopol etc..), and it makes me sick.
I for one don't want to live in a world in that all of my communication is monitored, stored, and processed to find out wether i'm "pro-terrorist", "a danger to society" etc. by anyone's standarts.
First, they came for the jews...
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Can we get an Amen!
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The only problem with entering a thread like this is the screeching you have to endure to participate. Comparing what we live under to a Nazi or Stalinistic state is a bit over the top.
We are at war. In WWII there used to be food rationing and blackouts, curfews, and myriad other curtailments of rights. Guess what? Those acts were repealed when the need was gone, so the suggestion that such acts cannot be repealed is already proven wrong by history. Will such acts get repealed when the need is gone is the question, and that is handled by us the citizenry through our votes.
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Yes Kieran, Stalinist/Nazi analogies are over the top, but you are not at war in any legal sense. Just some vague, sound-bite satisfying sense that isn't even good English.
There is an unmistakable difference between WW2 and the anti-terrorist stance Bush et al have taken. I would argue the rights issue equally different.
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Ahh but did the taxes get repealed ? Oh hell no. Enter the IRS enter the Fed control of your life, it can be argued that it has brought some good, and its overbearing weight on many can also equally be pointed out, Big Government is BIG control and humanes love it at least some do.
Janis Joplin had it right all along !
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Kieran: Comparing what we live under to a Nazi or Stalinistic state is a bit over the top.
If we already lived under totalitarian government, what would be a point of discussing it? We are not there yet but we are moving towards totalitarian government.
Do you usually hit the brakes before or after you hit an obstacle?
Guess what? Those acts were repealed when the need was gone, so the suggestion that such acts cannot be repealed is already proven wrong by history.
Which of the totalitarian institutions created during the conquest and subjugation of the Confederate States of America got repealed?
Will such acts get repealed when the need is gone is the question, and that is handled by us the citizenry through our votes.
Government policies shape citizenry as much as citizennry shapes government. Once people are corrupted into relying on handouts and coercion rather than their own abilities, they would not stop propagating the system until it crashes.
miko
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It's a bit of a stretch to compare 1940s surveillance capabilities with todays.
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Dowding-
Well... I lived here during the 9/11 attacks, and I think I can pretty much say if some country had stood up and said "It was us!" you would be looking at a situation very much like Japan/US during WWII- except we'd have been bombing the holy crap outta them with smart bombs. The only thing that makes this different is there was no clear, unmistakeable enemy claiming credit, nestled in a clearly defined area.
Miko-
To which "totalitarian" institutions do you refer? Reconstruction? That ended in the 1880's. The spate of Jim Crowe laws bears mute testimony to that fact.
As far as what our government does to us... we allow it to happen. We vote for them, or we vote them out.
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The only thing that makes this different is there was no clear, unmistakeable enemy claiming credit, nestled in a clearly defined area.
You make out that this is a minor point. It is the point. There was no single nation involved for a start. It would be like declaring war on an ideology.
It's inane. And it's a sound bite. You even had the King of Spin, Blair jumping on the band wagon - that speaks volumes.
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Originally posted by Kieran
We are at war. In WWII there used to be food rationing and blackouts, curfews, and myriad other curtailments of rights. Guess what? Those acts were repealed when the need was gone, so the suggestion that such acts cannot be repealed is already proven wrong by history. Will such acts get repealed when the need is gone is the question, and that is handled by us the citizenry through our votes.
Kieran, you're right... except there's a small detail that many people forget. This isn't any sort of conventional war we're at here, as a matter of fact I'd be very freakin' surprised if they actually get any more leads, information or prevent any attacks simply by taking away the citizens rights.
I highly doubt these curtailing of rights will provide them anything other than the ability to keep chiseling away at what we have until we have nothing at all.
Remember this may be a war, but it has no end in sight... not anytime soon anyway. So while we should get our rights back in the end... will we have any left in the end(if there even is one) to demand them back?
-SW
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Dick Nixon and J. Edgar Hoover would be green with envy.
edit: oops.
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Hey, I am not saying people shouldn't be aware of their rights. I am saying it's pretty silly to compare us to Stalinist/Nazi regimes. I am also saying we have the power to change these decisions by voting.
It may be more fun to yell "the sky is falling", I don't know...
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The INS has just started to enforce a little known law in Michigan that allows them to set up checkpoints anywhere within 25 miles of the border where everyone is questioned as to who they are, where they are going, etc.
I have heard that many these agents are somewhat rude and intimidating and have informed some people that they may be subject to detainment of undetirmined length if they do not answer questions to the agents satisfaction, how many of you carry a birth cirtificate or passport at all times to prove citizenship? I for one dont like the idea of being stopped with no probable cause and forced to produce my "papers".
Oh and by the way, the DEA and local law enforcement is also present to enforce drug and state violations that become evident during the interview and search.
I have worked as an investigator for many years both in cooperation with with law enforcment and in the defense capacity and can tell you that all of this information being compiled will be abused. On more than one occasion I have had prosecutors state to me that they felt the 4th ammendment was an impediment to good law enforcment, the first time I heard that I figured the guy had to be joking and I laughed..he was not smiling.
I guess the part that really bothers me is that the U.S. used to be envied or resented by many others in the world, including the Musslem radicals, because of the rights and freedoms enjoyed by its common citizens, and in a short period of time that has been changed...Osama has got to be laughing his bellybutton off about how easy it was.
shamus
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comparing TIA to nazi germany in the early thirties or USSR in the same period is not and invalid comparison at all, not even a bad one - there was a good amount of freedom in both societies - it was the slow, constant institution of similar programs and policies that lead to them being what they were at their peak of totalitarianism....that was j edgar hoover you're thinking of - herbert hoover was the corrupt president who, through lack of oversight of the securities markets, gave us the great depression
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Paranoid idiots with guns...great.
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You know, what puzzles me most is that you guys have hundreds of thousands of Moslems all over the world that would willingly trade their own lifes for a chance to kill a couple of your citizens.
That doesnt bother you though. But when your own law enforcement agencies are trying to protect your dumb tulips you want to tie both their hands behind their backs. Throwing hysteric fits and comparing your own police to nazis and communists...great sence of proportion btw... 8-40 000 000 innocent civilians murdered compared to tracking emails or purchase of explosives...
Sounds like a prime candidate for the Darwin awards.
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So you would have no problem with the police doing a "sneak and peek" search of your home or business while your away?
I fail to see how this database will protect me from any handsomehunk willing to blow himself up with a dynamite belt or crashing a plane into a building.
The enemy isn't the average American....even though the current thugs in power seem to think so.
IMO this kind of crap goes against the core values this country was founded on, and is one step closer to totalitarian rule.
*Main Entry: 1to·tal·i·tar·i·an
Pronunciation: (")tO-"ta-l&-'ter-E-&n
Function: adjective
Etymology: Italian totalitario, from totalità totality
Date: 1926
1 a : of or relating to centralized control by an autocratic leader or hierarchy : AUTHORITARIAN, DICTATORIAL; especially : DESPOTIC b : of or relating to a political regime based on subordination of the individual to the state and strict control of all aspects of the life and productive capacity of the nation especially by coercive measures (as censorship and terrorism)
2 a : advocating or characteristic of totalitarianism b : completely regulated by the state especially as an aid to national mobilization in an emergency c : exercising autocratic powers : tending toward monopoly*
I guess the part that really bothers me is that the U.S. used to be envied or resented by many others in the world, including the Musslem radicals, because of the rights and freedoms enjoyed by its common citizens, and in a short period of time that has been changed...Osama has got to be laughing his bellybutton off about how easy it was.
shamus
Spot on shamus.
Originally posted by Hortlund
You know, what puzzles me most is that you guys have hundreds of thousands of Moslems all over the world that would willingly trade their own lifes for a chance to kill a couple of your citizens.
That doesnt bother you though. But when your own law enforcement agencies are trying to protect your dumb tulips you want to tie both their hands behind their backs. Throwing hysteric fits and comparing your own police to nazis and communists...great sence of proportion btw... 8-40 000 000 innocent civilians murdered compared to tracking emails or purchase of explosives...
Sounds like a prime candidate for the Darwin awards.
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The terrorists win. :mad:
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Originally posted by Dowding (Work)
You make out that this is a minor point. It is the point. There was no single nation involved for a start. It would be like declaring war on an ideology.
It's inane. And it's a sound bite. You even had the King of Spin, Blair jumping on the band wagon - that speaks volumes.
You can call it what you like while we try to protect ourselves and dispose of a serious problem.
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If you have to give up the very freedom you are trying to protect, what is the point of fighting? If you argue it is only for the duration of the "war", when will any "war" on terrorism end? 911 gave the government the excuse it needed to seize more power the same way the Great Depression did. I seriously doubt any of the laws passed to fight terrorism will ever be repealed.
The day will come when the American people will vote themselves out of power. The politicians have already convinced them it is in their own best interest to give up as much money and liberty as necessary to government to live safely and securely. It is almost funny considering that we made so many sacrifices to overcome Communism only to start becoming Communists ourselves. Is there really so much difference between a two-party system and a one-party system? Of course this country really only has one party... the dollar :(
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Ok, I was wrong, the sky is falling. :cool:
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The means of defense against foreign danger historically have become the instruments of tyranny at home.
-James Madison
:)
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I heard that freedom is a passing fad anyway...technology will see to that...and anything else that goes on.
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For some reason I keep seeing Dana Carvey, imitating Bush Sr. "Pleease. I dont want to be a one termer."
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About the War On Terrorism.
You've been at war with drugs for more than twenty years. Still you had more right to privacy than now.
Going to war against a noun is very different from going to war against another nation.
The word can be used as in an active struggle between competing entities´(a war of wits etc). However, it is not the same as a war between two or more states.