Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Sandman on December 03, 2002, 09:58:50 AM
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My wife is in an english class. She's supposed to write an article arguing for or against high schools providing condoms to students.
We disagree. :)
Our position for our children has been one of preparation. We fully expect that our children will act irresponsibly. Hormones rage so loudly that they'll forget our guidance. I'm certain of it. Maybe I'm wrong to accept defeat and try to minimize the damage, but I think it's a realistic expectation. That said, if my teenage children engage in sexual activity, they are going to be in trouble. If they engage in unprotected sexual activity, they are in big trouble.
That said, I think the schools are completely out of line to provide condoms to students. I think it undermines parental authority, especially those parents that have a different perspective than ours with regard to sexual education and sexual activity among teenagers.
My wife thinks that the school can provide guidance to children that lack guidance at home. She considers teenage children with little or no guidance on sexual activity to be a threat to ours and that all of them should be taught to be prepared regardless of parental opinion.
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yeah
put your daughter on the pill, give your son rubbers and tell them oh yeah by the way if you have sex you'll be grounded :rolleyes:
not too confusing a message
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I don't see how it undermines parental authority given that they can go buy them at 7-11
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Sure beats buying formula or paying child support at a young age!
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I'm fully supportive of the availability of free contraception and education, over the age of 11 y/o.
Less unwanted pregnancy = less abortion.
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Originally posted by Eagler
yeah
put your daughter on the pill, give your son rubbers and tell them oh yeah by the way if you have sex you'll be grounded :rolleyes:
not too confusing a message
Thanks Eagler. I'm not the least bit interested in your opinion of how I raise my children. You missed the point of the discussion. :rolleyes:
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Personally, I'm divided on the issue..on one hand your wife is right...there are parents out there too busy to be bothered with their children...in some cases both parents working fail to take time for their children. In these cases, it may be a good idea that *someone* take the initiative (Public schools?)
OTOH, I also believe that it IS a parental responsibility, but how do we convince parents that they NEED to do their job?
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Dammit. Why do I agree with Ripsnort?! There's something wrong here, and I blame you Sandman. Punk.
SOB
PS...Don't listen to Eagler. You'll never agree with him. The day that you do, it's time to call it quits.
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Originally posted by Wlfgng
I don't see how it undermines parental authority given that they can go buy them at 7-11
I doesn't, but they are more like to grab a couple out of an innoucuous basket at school then go up to pharmacist or cashier. I remember the first time I bought condoms, it embarrassed the toejam out of me.
Chances are you teenager WILL have sex. Do you want to to get AIDS, impregnated or impregnate someone. It's called protection for a reason? I would prefer my child to be protected then not.
As far as parents being mindful and doing their duty, it's a nice idea, but unfortunately it doesn't necessarily reflect reality.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
As far as parents being mindful and doing their duty, it's a nice idea, but unfortunately it doesn't necessarily reflect reality.
So, there within lies the society problem ranging from Guns to Rubbers issues. ;)
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Chances are you teenager WILL have sex. Do you want to to get AIDS, impregnated or impregnate someone. It's called protection for a reason? I would prefer my child to be protected then not.
Thats fine and I agree. But do you think that this should go for children that are not your as well, regardless of their parental opinion?
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Thats fine and I agree. But do you think that this should go for children that are not your as well, regardless of their parental opinion?
Yes. Isn't there a difference between a school making condoms available to teenagers and a school GIVING them a condom.
Assuming a parent doesn't want the kid to have a condom, then school isn't upsurping the authority of the parent, the kid is.
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I don't see how it undermines parental authority given that they can go buy them at 7-11
I see it like this.
I hope if my kids are dumb enough to have sex too early (I was) then I hope they can have easy access to condoms.
but I don't want their school to be the place where they get them.
It does undermine a parents authority when they say, 'no sex while you are a child in my home'
and the school says ' we are suposed to tell you not to have sex, but since we all know you all are going to do it anyway, here's the gear'
if they want sex bad enough they can deal with the embarasment at the drug store like the rest of us did.
btw- hey little girl, if that guy isn't willing to embarass himself to go get protection, then maybe he don't want you bad enough. wait for the right guy.
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Im a teen and to me having someone provide me with condoms is encouraging sexual activity at an early age and saying that hey yer not responsible take these...
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I have a 14 yr old daughter. I think they should hand out full body condoms to every teenaged pimpley faced twerp with decended balls in the city.
Then meat cleavers to every Father with a teenage daughter.
Yea, that should do it.
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I'm obviously not handing condoms out to anyone. Sorry.
Let me expand on that in a fiscal way... how about you guys tell me what books, software, computers, or teachers we can do without so the kids can get free condoms?
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Alot of teenagers are irresponsible, part and parcel.
You could see it as the school saying, "IF you choose to have sex, here is condoms".
If you raise your child the way you want to then this shouldn't be a problem as they won't take the condom anyway.
Kieran, isn't there a difference between hand out condoms and making the available?
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If you raise your child the way you want to then this shouldn't be a problem as they won't take the condom anyway.
Ok.
Let's provide crack cocaine, too. Let's pass out handguns. If I raise mine right, it shouldn't be a problem.
Some things just crack me up. Don't say "religion" in school, but let's hand them condoms and pretend we aren't sending a moral message. Fact is, just like religion, this has no place in schools.
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I say do it.
When I was a teen, I knew some guys and girls, who came from very religious houses, they were not allowed in sex ed classes.
One of the girls learned on her own, her parents still thought she was a little angel, in the mean time she was doing the whole football team.
Sometimes your kids end up being different people then you think they are, and you may think your kid wont have sex before marriage so they do not need to know about safe sex, but they could be out doing the baseball team.
Kids should not die from aids or other STDs if we can help it.
Not a bash on religion, I knew kids who took it very seriously, and did not want to have sex. This is not a bad thing in my eyes.
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Weapons and crack cocaine are dangerous. Are kids going to try and smoke condom or injure someone with them? At worst they will make water balloons out of them. Chance is are they will use them to prevent unwanted pregnancy and protect themselves from STDs.
Of course high school is the place for condoms. Its where young hormonaly hopped up kids meet, congragate and socialise.
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Originally posted by Kieran
Ok.
Let's provide crack cocaine, too. Let's pass out handguns. If I raise mine right, it shouldn't be a problem.
Some things just crack me up. Don't say "religion" in school, but let's hand them condoms and pretend we aren't sending a moral message. Fact is, just like religion, this has no place in schools.
First of all, don't be retarded :)
Second, condoms shouldn't just be handed out. If they are made available, they should be available not from you as a teacher but from a counselor or school nurse. Whether it's a good idea or not, some kids are sexually active, some were when you went to school, and some will be when your grandchildren go to school.
The high school I graduated from opened a day care center for the students two years after I graduated. AFAIK, they still don't make condoms available to students. Somehow, the day care center still gets used. If making them available can keep one student from squealing up their lives and keep them from being a burden on society, it's worth it IMO.
SOB
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Answer the question, Thrawn. What books, software, computers, or teachers are you willing to give up so the kids can have free condoms? Those things aren't free.
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SOB-
Can't help being retarded- I just am.
Of course I used an extreme analogy, but hey, isn't that regular form for the board?
I guess I should add, of course I know students are sexually active. It really bothers me that this society decides it is easier to concede to irresponsibility. And if you really believe handing condoms to kids isn't handing consent to them in the same motion, I'm not the only one who's retarded.
But... screw it. (ha!)
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Doesn't Planned Parenthood pay for it down there?
What's cheaper, paying welfare for a single mother, medical costs for STDs, or a condom.
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Good question. I tend to doubt that.
Hey, if kids want to go to Planned Parenthood, I could understand that. That is part of the reason for its existance, and is certainly no less private than going to a teacher or counselor. I have a serious problem giving my tacit consent to the students in the confines of my school.
And how's this for a scream... I can't speak of my beliefs or morality in schools- that would be "harmful". Yet, I am supposed to potentially hand out condoms against my beliefs, and very likely against the beliefs of may of the parents in the community?
Sorry, just like religion, this does not belong in the school. There are agencies that handle this.
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LOL! It's great when retards argue, and this is indeed the perfect venue. :D
I can see how it could be implied consent, but what's the alternative to condeding to this irresponsibility. What reasonable consequence to sexual activity could we impose (that isn't there already - pregnancy, disease, etc) that would cause kids with raging hormones and an penchant to rebel to choose celibacy?
SOB
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Wlfgng: I don't see how it undermines parental authority given that they can go buy them at 7-11
7-11 is not considered a source of morals in our society. No child is stupid enough to say "that is acceptable because the store clerk told me so..." while "... my teacher told me so..." is completely different.
Besides, if store clerk corrupts your children, you complain to the manager and the pervert will be out in no time. If the teacher corrupts your child - tough luck. Move to the suburb where there is no teacher's union.
Sandman - sure, children will behave irresponsibly. We certainly did. Any kid should have a condom in his wallet (be allowed to find one if not directly given by a parent) or be confined/superwised 24/7. But it is certainly not teacher's job to give them out - or determine the quality of parent's guidance.
In Soviet Union religious parents were obviously bad influence on their children - so the children were sometimes taken away.
Kieran: Some things just crack me up. Don't say "religion" in school, but let's hand them condoms...
That's another thing. Once given condoms, they will pray for a chance to use them. Clearly promotes a religion. :D
miko
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Kieran, where do you suggest kids without access to a Planned Parenthood office or money get comdoms from?
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Treat kids like pets... neuter and spay the lil' bastards, solves the pregnancy issue atleast.
Hey! Don't need abortions no more either!
Two birds with one stone.
-SW
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Originally posted by Hawklore
Im a teen and to me having someone provide me with condoms is encouraging sexual activity at an early age and saying that hey yer not responsible take these...
Funny how simple common sense can foster truth.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
I have a 14 yr old daughter. I think they should hand out full body condoms to every teenaged pimpley faced twerp with decended balls in the city.
Then meat cleavers to every Father with a teenage daughter.
Yea, that should do it.
What just happened here....I'm in agreement with MT???
Oh...wait a minute....you said meat cleaver. Shotgun is more appropriate.
Father of three daughters:)
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Originally posted by miko2d
[B That's another thing. Once given condoms, they will pray for a chance to use them. Clearly promotes a religion. :D
miko [/B]
LOL :D
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By saying, "Religion does not belong in school," I'm assuming you mean that prayer and observance of ritual does not belong in school. On the other hand, I believe that education about religion certainly *does* belong in school. Children should be exposed to different worldly religions, and their histories. Not to press theological views into their heads, but simply to educate them.
Along the same lines, I fully believe that sexual education should be a part of a child's education. Learn everything possible so an informed decision can be made about whether or not to engage in the act.
The simple fact is that high school kids are going to have sex. It is our job as parents to educate them to make the right decision (aka to use protection) when they do.
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Treat kids like pets... neuter and spay the lil' bastards, solves the pregnancy issue atleast.
Hey! Don't need abortions no more either!
Two birds with one stone.
-SW
I've always kidded my father in the presence of my wife that he'd have saved me a TON of money if he had me neutered at age 12 :D
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Originally posted by Rude
What just happened here....I'm in agreement with MT???
Oh...wait a minute....you said meat cleaver. Shotgun is more appropriate.
Father of three daughters:)
As cliche as it may be, the father of my first actually had a private talk with me - cleaning his pistol while he outlined the do's and dont's. Even thought I knew in the back of my mind he couldn't be serious, there was that little bit of doubt. That doubt kept me out of his daughters panties for a little while, but soon the hormones took over and any rational thought was abandoned.
SOB
PS...I bought the condoms at Shopko. Took me a half an hour to work up the courage to bring 'em to the counter and buy 'em! LOL :D
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Kieran, where do you suggest kids without access to a Planned Parenthood office or money get comdoms from?
Same place I did... gas stations, drug stores, etc.
Back to the monetary issue... since when is birth control an entitlement, especially to underage citizens? Look, I understand the viewpoint of prevention, really I do. I could even support a birth control entitlement... almost... but not in my school.
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It's not a entitlement, just a good idea to help society run more smoothly.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Thanks Eagler. I'm not the least bit interested in your opinion of how I raise my children. You missed the point of the discussion. :rolleyes:
I was generalizing unless of course you have given your children pill control and rubbers, then I mean you
Dowding
you planning on your kid having sex at 11?
that is more than wrong, that is sick
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Originally posted by Eagler
I was generalizing unless of course you have given your children pill control and rubbers, then I mean you
Dowding
you planning on your kid having sex at 11?
that is more than wrong, that is sick
and ...
shouldn't this thread have been before the abortion thread?
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Eagler, when do you plan on your kids having sex?
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It does undermine a parents authority when they say, 'no sex while you are a child in my home'
so what's to stop them from buying them at the drug store ?
you should blame the stores that sell them then.
which is crazy IMO.
the reality is, as Rip pointed out, that many parents should be responsible for their kids but aren't. In fact, there are too many parents that leave the 'parenting' to schools, daycare, etc.
Maybe it's not right that kids have sex at too early an age but if they do (and they will) isn't it better for them to be protected?
IT'd be worse if they had unprotected sex, caught STD's or ruined their lives with an early pregnancy.
We don't have a 'Leave it to Beaver' type of world so reality creeps in and makes things like condoms necessary.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
That said, I think the schools are completely out of line to provide condoms to students. I think it undermines parental authority, especially those parents that have a different perspective than ours with regard to sexual education and sexual activity among teenagers.
That makes the rather dodgy assumption that parents have any real authority over teenagers' sex lives. IMHO the thing that undermines parental authority most is having teenagers.
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jonnyb: By saying, "Religion does not belong in school," I'm assuming you mean that prayer and observance of ritual does not belong in school. On the other hand, I believe that education about religion certainly *does* belong in school.
Not even that restrictive. Prayer and observance do belong in school as long as religious people - teachers and students belong in school. If they pray in their private time with no public money involved - nobody can legally object.
Thrawn: It's not a entitlement, just a good idea to help society run more smoothly.
Just like all the "good ideas" that got us into this mess originally. The common misconseption of ignorant people is that society creates morals. Nothing can be further from the truth.
Morals and customs create society - by enabling the carrier population to prosper and outpropagate the others. Development of morals and customs was not a product of reason or intent but of spontaneous evolutionary process.
Absence of reason or perceived importance was enough justification for arrogant intellectuals to abandon those customs and come up with "reasonable" ones - destroying the foundation of society in the process. Once the screwup brough long-predicted results (Torqueville, Acton, Hayek, etc.), instead of going back to proven morals and starting over from there, remedies from the same discredited set are offered.
Society was running smoothly with respect to children having sex before socialist edicational and other ideas on parenting and responcibility became accepted policies to the detriment of naturally formed ones.
miko
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Now, perhaps you can give some context to what you've posted.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Eagler, when do you plan on your kids having sex?
The oldest "connected" at 22 and we now have a two year old grand daughter
I think/hope the mess this created will keep his 17 year old brother in the barn slightly longer
if you play you gotta pay - no free rides
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Kinda reminds me of when that ditzz Josalyn Elders was advocating teaching masterbation in school...bet a lot of guys were looking forward to the final exam.
shamus
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I hope my daughter waits until she's older as well, but I would hypocrit to expect her to. I would also be a hypocrit to expect her to have sex souly for the perposes of procreation. As such I want her to have protection, should she need it.
And yes these are MY beliefs on the matter. But kids do have sex without parents concent or even them knowing.
I agree with -dead-. As you teenager becomes older and older you authority becomes more based on how much the kid wants you to have. Well, you can kick them out of the house.
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Heh...schools may hand out condoms, but how many students use them? The only time I've ever seen a condom that was issued by the school used was when 50 werre blown up and batted around the cafeteria at lunch. Most high schoolers will take them, but by the time they get ready to "do the deed", they've forgotten or just don't care.
Ever wonder why there's so many pregnacies in high schoolers and middle schoolers? It's because paretns don't take responsability to teach their kids the consequenses about sex. It's not a question of morals, it's a question about teaching.
Any teenager who's pregnant probably wasn't educated...
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.. just put posters like this in every hall/classroom in HS :)
(http://home.xnet.com/~cathmike/cath/cath%20belly%20shot%2028%20wk%201%20day.jpg)
or this:
(http://ruhiel.noom.com/belly.jpg)
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Originally posted by Shamus
Kinda reminds me of when that ditzz Josalyn Elders was advocating teaching masterbation in school...bet a lot of guys were looking forward to the final exam.
shamus
Oh yeah... the same "ditz" that said the druq war was a failure...
What does she know?
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HURRAY FOR FREE CONDOMS...now if only i needed to sue them ;)
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Sexual suffocation can lead to severe maladjustment. Go with the condoms and let them get in the practice time. Just make sure that they're aware that sometimes "one can slip by the goalie".
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I don't have any kids but I went to school.
If the School doesn't have any classes on this subject matter then I can't see any reason why they would be involved.
The role of school is to teach our children academics imo. Nothing more, nothing less.
btw I agree with you view sandman as far as your wife's opinion though, she's right the school 'could' provide guidance but it isn't what they are paid to do.
If I had heard that schools were doing a fantastic job, test scores are looking great and they have some extra time and spare teachers (who are qualified to guide students behavior) hanging around doing nothing then ya I could say "why the hell not"
but that's not the case afaik.
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Thrawn: Now, perhaps you can give some context to what you've posted.
I do plan on someday posting the main ideas of F. Hayek's "The Fatal Conceit" and "The Road to Serfdom" here - but I'd advise shelling out $25 and buying those two books. They are not even large or technical. They deal, among other essential things, with the issue of where the morals, traditions and rules that served as base for western civilisation - and caused it's birth and rise - originated from and why it was a bad idea to dismantle them without care.
Basically, we are aiming for freedom and prosperity but are going to despotism and deprivation as surely as any other law of nature.
miko
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Oh yeah... the same "ditz" that said the druq war was a failure...
What does she know?
I didnt say that she never had a correct thought... figured there had to be at least 1 or 2 hidden in there someplace.
shamus
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Originally posted by SOB
PS...Don't listen to Eagler. You'll never agree with him. The day that you do, it's time to call it quits.
PS... Yeah, dont listen to one of the few level headed people on the BBS, it might make you consider another viewpoint. :eek:
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Originally posted by Kieran
Ok.
Let's provide crack cocaine, too. Let's pass out handguns. If I raise mine right, it shouldn't be a problem.
Condoms, handguns, cocaine.
(Best Sesame Street voice)
"One of these things is not like the other, one of these things, doesnt belong!"
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Originally posted by miko2d
I do plan on someday posting the main ideas of F. Hayek's "The Fatal Conceit" and "The Road to Serfdom" here - but I'd advise shelling out $25 and buying those two books.
Thanks, I try and get at least one of them for Christmas.
Basically, we are aiming for freedom and prosperity but are going to despotism and deprivation as surely as any other law of nature.
miko
Seems like we are heading to me.
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miko2d: Not even that restrictive. Prayer and observance do belong in school as long as religious people - teachers and students belong in school. If they pray in their private time with no public money involved - nobody can legally object.
I agree that people should be allowed to express their religious beliefs. It is part of the doctrine I swore my life to defend. My point, although not clearly expressed, was that neither teachers, nor students, have the right to force that prayer onto others. For example, I believe that if you and a group of your fellow worshippers want to spend your free time together praying to your favorite deity, then please do. On the other hand, do not stand in front of the class and say, "Before we begin, let's all say the ."
Back to the subject of the thread, so as not to seem a complete hijack...
Eagler, unfortunately some teenagers idolize those images. It would only fuel their need for acceptance and attention. The best we can do as parents is to educate our children, and attempt to guide their decisions through example. Because when it comes right down to it, the decision will ultimately be theirs. Hopefully, they make the right one.
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
PS... Yeah, dont listen to one of the few level headed people on the BBS, it might make you consider another viewpoint. :eek:
I was busting Eagler's chops. Get a life.
SOB
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Originally posted by SOB
Dammit. Why do I agree with Ripsnort?! There's something wrong here...
hehe me too - anyone see a blood red moon or locusts?
on one hand the movement is probably spearheaded by irritating libs that are trying to be parental figures for kids and advance their agenda -but- if a kid happens to have a condom they are likely to use it if they're in that situation. it's not like they'r egoing to avoid sex if they don't have a condom, don't you people remember being a teen?
the implication from some though is that little johnny is going to go to little sally and say "hey, i got a condom, let's get it on!" and she's gonna say "ok!" yeah sheesh----if only it were that easy...;)
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NO, IF YOU GIVE PILOTS PARACHUTES THEY ARE JUST GONNA TRY TO BAIL OUT AT ANY LITTLE WHIM.
High school kids are just like adults. The low class kids are going to have sex no matter what. They are going to be pressuring girls into having sex. Might as well give them condoms so we can stop them from breeding other little monsters.
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High school kids are just like adults. The low class kids are going to have sex no matter what. They are going to be pressuring girls into having sex. Might as well give them condoms so we can stop them from breeding other little monsters.
They're gonna drink beer, too. Might as well give them kegs. Oh, and they'll need a safe place to have the kegger, might as well let them have the gym.
Sheesh, where do you draw the line?
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
PS... Yeah, dont listen to one of the few level headed people on the BBS, it might make you consider another viewpoint. :eek:
Plenty of level headed people on this BBS. I agree with some of them some of the time.
Consider another viewpoint? That's rich. I'm not in here to modify my viewpoint. Every new discussion brings better understanding of the people I see in the arena. More often than not, I already have a preconceived notion about what anyone will say on any given subject. The best times are when they jump out of the box I've painted them into and come up with something out of character, something that I didn't expect, something that changes the picture in my head that I assign to everyone here.
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Originally posted by Kieran
They're gonna drink beer, too. Might as well give them kegs. Oh, and they'll need a safe place to have the kegger, might as well let them have the gym.
Sheesh, where do you draw the line?
wow this slope is slippery.
for your analogy to work, the schools would have to be giving kids sex, they aren't, they are giving them protection in case they are one of those kids that has sex in highschool of which there are always going to be many.
even if there was a sex gestapo, headed by pat robertson in a black uniform, you'd never stop young people from gettin' it on.
a proper analogy would be more like 'they're going to drink anyway-why don't we just give them table coasters!' see it for what it is.
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Originally posted by SOB
I was busting Eagler's chops. Get a life.
SOB
And I was busting yours. Get a life... eh... sooner! HAH!
Jesus... :rolleyes:
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No, Mr. Fish, it does work because the schools would allow a safe way for students to practice drinking.
You're right, it is a slippery slope. I say that about any argument for an act that anyone can see is a bad idea, yet we propose it because we have effectively thrown our hands in the air and said "what're you gonna do?"
I am not going to be a hypocrite and say I don't want the school to give my daughters contraceptives, but it is a good idea for other kids. I guess I'm also a little tired of schools being treated as a cure for social ills, rather than a place of learning.
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I think highschools should only provide condoms for teen drunken homosexual rave parties. Better safe than sorry.
Oh... and it was much easier when teachers demanded students fear consequences rather than simply act responsible. Some day teachers will remember that teenagers are not simply small adults.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
And I was busting yours. Get a life... eh... sooner! HAH!
Jesus... :rolleyes:
This is between you and me. Let the INS deal with Jesus.
SOB
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It's time to get sex education out of the public schools and back on the streets where it belongs.
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Schools nowadays are turning to drastic measures to quell the recent spurt of teen pregnancies. Since many parents were blaming the schools for not teaching the kids the responsability of sex (imagine that, parents blaming the schools!!), so the schools began to issue comdoms as a way to save face.
As unorthodox and illogical as that sounds, it's probably the most likely solution. The attitude of "Hey, now we're trying!" is a way to stop further complaints against the schools for poor parenting.
What do you guys think?
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The choir angels are always the most repressed. Heh.
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Treat kids like pets... neuter and spay the lil' bastards, solves the pregnancy issue atleast.
Hey! Don't need abortions no more either!
Two birds with one stone.
-SW
And the end of the human race as we know it
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Life must have been so much sweeter in the '50s. There were no teenage pregnancies. There were no drugs. Everybody could go about their business and there was lots of personal responsibility. Everything was just peachy. Black, white, whatever your colour - everybody knew their place and got along just fine. Violence was something that happened in the movies. Why can't we go back to that rose-tinted age, when there were no social ills to confront?
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Take two sheets of paper, draw a line down the middle. On the top of one put "Then- 50's". On the top of the other put "Now". On the left-hand column of both place the responsibilities of parents with respect to what they taught their kids. On the right place the responsibilities of the schools with respect to the kids.
See if you can figure out any reason in the decline in the quality of education.
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What's the point? You've already reached a conclusion regardless of the outcome of the excercise.
I can only speak for the UK, not the US.
In the 1950s, if you didn't pass an exam at the age of 11 y/o (called the '11+') you had zero chance of an academic career of any kind. You were effectively pigeonholed as a 'worker' and were sent to one kind of school. You'd receive half-hearted teaching until the age of 15 and then would start work. If you lived near a mine, you worked down the mine. If you lived near a steelworks, you worked in the steelworks.
Luckily, they had lots of mines and steelworks around where I was born, so they had some choice. ;)
If you passed the exam, you were sent to 'Grammar' schools which were much better funded and supported scholarships for sending pupils to university.
Sounds like a fair system? Basing a child's entire future on the results of a single exam taken at a time when many children have not reached their full potential?
That was the 1950s for you, and that's just for starters.
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Maybe each school could clean out a supply closet or two and put in a nice bed, some wallpaper and mood lighting?
You know how tough it can be in the back seat of a Civic, right?
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Wait! Don't hit that Reply button yet!
I actually can see both sides of this argument. I'd have to give it some thought before I "pronounced" on it. ;)
I just couldn't resist that opportunity......
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Everybody takes a cheap shot, with a glib inane answer once in a while. ;)
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do you think the object of the rubber distribution is birth control or to prevent STD's?
why worry about getting preg, just a little visit to your local clinic and they suck out that problem...
STD's on the other hand, the wrong one of those can KILL YA!
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Why not both?
Claemydia (spelling lol :)) is almost at epidemic level in US teenagers I hear. Similar situation over here. Most of the time it has no symptoms, but can render both sexes infertile.
I was reading the other day that the number of new HIV cases in Britain for 2000 was 3600. Compared to just 600 in the previous year.
That's what complacency gets you.
Ethnic minorities in the US have a much higher HIV rate compared to the rest of the population. Perhaps evidence of the AIDS epidemic present in Asia and Africa spreading to higher income countries.
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don't you see the distribution of condoms as condoning the act if not encouraging it?
why have the school get in the middle, leave it to the teens and the parents to handle the issue - sex ed can be part of health class - it should stop there as far as the school is concerned.
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Originally posted by Eagler
leave it to the teens and the parents to handle the issue - sex ed can be part of health class - it should stop there as far as the school is concerned.
Exactly. However, the issue that most are bringing up is that parents and teens are not doing a very good job at handling it. The schools are asked (hell, demanded) by the parents to help. Abstinence programs work somewhat, but not as well as the parents want. So the schools want to distribute condoms in addition to abstinence programs.
I can see the points of saying it condones it. In principle, maybe it does. But what about reality? Does having condoms available in a school encourage kids who are on the fence to fall off on the sexually active side? I can't honestly answer that question.
I wish that parents and kids could do this one on their own, but it's obvious they can't. I feel that the ones that would have sex solely because condoms are available in school (which I have no idea what percentage this would be) are "acceptable losses" if teen pregnancy and teen STDs were significantly reduced. Yup, I'd rather "condone the behavior" if it saves kids.
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but it ain't a school problem
but they (school board) want it to be, they want to be an arm of the government which invades the rights and responsibilites of the parents.
if jr knocks up missy, what is it to the school? helps the over crowded classroom situation when missy becomes mommy and jr becomes daddy - unless of course they run down to the clinic for an hour and get her "detailed"
I don't think its about birth control, its about STD - they don't want half the student body squirming around scratching their crotch in class - can't concentrate on their studies then ya know
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Dowding (Work): Ethnic minorities in the US have a much higher HIV rate compared to the rest of the population.
Which ones? Koreans? Chinese? Jews? Russians? Cubans? Hindus? Pushtuns? Bengalis?
If out of dozens of ethnic minorities in the US exactly two has much higher HIV rate compared to the rest of the population, your statement is not really informative to put it mildly. Here is more precise data:
In 2000, the incidence of adult and adolescent AIDS cases per 100,000 population was 74.2 for blacks, 30.4 for Hispanics, and 7.9 for whites. (CDC. HIV/AIDS surveillance report.)
In statistical studies (NLSY) done on US whites only with socioeconomic status held equal, the degree of sexual promiscuity, teenage/extramarital pregnancy, tendency to commit crime and experience other "social ills" was very strongly correlated with a person's intelligence.
Same studies showed that if intelligence is held equal, there is only small corellation with socio-economic status.
Which is not a big surprise since higher intelligence includes better ability to understand consequences, evaluate risks, appreciation of delayed gratification, being able to derive entertainment from pursuits other than sex - like reading books, conversation, reduced likelihood to fall for irrational influence and myths (using condoms is 'unmanly'), etc.
Personal intelligence often comes bundled with intelligent parent(s) from whom it was genetically inherited.
Now, the smart children may be able to understand the difference between providing condoms and encouraging sex - and if fallen to temptation, to actually use those condoms. But the smart children are not the significant part of the problem here anyway.
It seems likely to me that the less smart children will understand the message as "sex is OK" but they will be less likely to actually use those condoms for intended purpose.
So you may well get a total increase in sex and sex-related problems like pregnancies and STD - especially among groups already most suffering from it.
miko
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not to mention the fact the rubbers are probably the cheapest ones money can buy while charging the tax payer a premium
imagine the lawsuit?
"the school provided condom broke during intercourse causing the the transmission of the forementioned STD ..."
If birth control is the real issue, I say knock off the lads nads in shop class instead.
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The schools don't see it as a way to promote sex...they're simply bending to the will of the parents.
Let's face it...most parents simply do not want to teach their children about sex...they always claim that they or the child are uncomfortable. So when the child gets to teenage and starts banging his girlfriend in the front seats of a Miata, he goes on waht he knows. SHe gets pregnant, and the parents freak...trying to blame the schools for not educationg their children.
You think that's strange? Before our school started issuing condoms, there was a major influx of pregnacies and STDs all over the district. Parents were complaining during board meetings, saying the school wasn't doing their job, and how they wanted their son or daughter to recieve any credit they mised while having the kid or recovering from the disease. The school bent, and now taxpayers are peying to allow some shmuck of a female to have her kids, all without any acedemic responsabilities.
The condoms here were simply used as a card to tell parents that the school is trying. I mean honestly, they're the cheapest and smallest the school could find, and probably wouldn't fit anyone but Mustang and Firebird drivers. They can't be promoting sex, cause they aren't being used at all.
If a student wants to have sex, he's going to whether the school gives them condoms or not. It's not the responsability of the school to educate its students about sex, so they don't. They play their "We're trying!" card to show parents they're doing something so the parents won't sue 'em. The real problem is the assinine parents who want their daughters to recieve credit even though she was an idiot.
Our valedictorian is pregnant, and she'll probably graduate with the highest honors cause her parents squeaked. Her boyfriend, ironically, recieved a condom from the school during health class only the day before he banged her.
:D
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On a microscopic level, condoms are porous enough to allow the AIDS virus to pass through...comparable to a basketball (AIDS virus) passing through a four foot diameter hole. So condoms are useless as protection against HIV.
Condoms are not infallible as a birth control method, due to breakage, which happens more often than you think.
Imo, it would be more responsible for schools' Sex Ed classes to teach absinence as the only way to avoid these problems...maybe even bring in people whose lives have been wrecked to speak to the class.
Some students won't be impressed, it's true. But at least it would be better than passing out misinformation that could lead some students into a false sense of security. 'Condoms' is definitely not the answer when dealing with the AIDS virus.
Les
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Originally posted by Leslie
On a microscopic level, condoms are porous enough to allow the AIDS virus to pass through...comparable to a basketball (AIDS virus) passing through a four foot diameter hole. So condoms are useless as protection against HIV.
Hey Doc, the experts disagree:
If you choose to have vaginal intercourse, use a latex condom to help protect both you and your partner from the risk of HIV and other STDs. Studies have shown that latex condoms are very effective, though not perfect, in preventing HIV transmission when used correctly and consistently. If either partner is allergic to latex, plastic (polyurethane) condoms for either the male or female can be used. - webMD
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Hey Doc, the experts disagree:
Not only that - but sexual fluid to sexual fluid transmission is NOT an easy way to transmit HIV. HIV LOVES blood, but isnt so fond of semen or "girly juice."
A male has a 1 in 200 chance of contracting HIV through unprotected vaginal sex with a female. A female has a 1 in 100 chance during the same encounter - however anal sex with an infected person is almost a garaunteed transmission because of the rips and tears that cause bleeding. This is presumably why HIV was a "gay disease" years ago.
Dont ask me for sources - this was taught to me freshman year in college by my Human Sexuality prof - most of his work was HIV/AIDS related - really opened up our eyes on many "scare tactics" tought to us in HS.
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Woah Miko - put away your Bell curves and statistics. The reason for the higher prevalence of HIV is due to the fact that a lot of immigration is coming from areas of AIDS epidemic. Conequently, communities from those areas, based in the US, have a higher infection rate.
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Ya might be thinking of natural condoms Leslie. Latex condoms don't have that problem...it's the ones made out of (sheep intestines?)
SOB
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I reached a conclusion based on my professional experience. But then again, you've reached your conclusion too. ;)
Eagler has it to a point- sex ed is fine, passing out condoms is not. He is wrong on another point, though... the school board definitely does NOT want to take this on as "their" problem. They bend to the public will, period. Nobody wants more trouble than they already have.
The lawsuit issue is interesting... hadn't thought of that, but yeah, I could easily see that happening.
Toad-
Why not? Can't make their natural urges unpleasant or inconvenient, after all.
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If they had given me free condoms in school when I was 15, It would have saved me a lot of money better spent on video games.
Ahhh, the golden years of my sexuality, when all girls were oozing pherhormones, the slightest provocation would induce a boner, and the whole deed would take less than 15 minutes in the A/V room...