Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: ArtLaws on April 30, 2001, 07:27:00 AM
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I have never made a single kill with the sucker move known as the
"HAMMERHEAD". Nor do I teach it to any I newbee I train. But they hear
about it and my experience. They won't be falling for many your little
hammerheads. I warn them that some of the best pilots in the game can do
1000s of tempting variations of 1 simple newbee killer move "THE
HAMMERHEAD". You pilots are using the fact that a persons veiw is
limited. In this and all other sims. A real pilot has over 200 degrees of vision.
if we had the ability to recreate that vision "NO ONE-EXCEPT THE
EXTREMELY STUPID" would knowingly pull up into a straight vertical
stall. You are using this game limation to get the magority of your kills. So I
say you are cheating. Yes your a bunch pansy cheaters. IMO If anyone can
show my WWII Film of a SINGLE hammerhead kill. I would like to see it.
How many times would you do that SUCKER MOVE in the real world. As
your pulling into the SUCKER MOVE, my WINGMAN drop froms alt and
makes a big mess in the cockpit of your plane. You are a sitting duck during
the move, if we all flew with wingmen in this game as they did in reality you
would not return to base many times.
The thing that really pisses me off is that the same people who DEPEND on
this SUCKER MOVE are the same people who will squeak for hours a day
about the flight modeling of NIK or this or that. I suggest the planes are fine,
maybe its our own flight modeling skills we should work on. Art
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Sounds like someone got hit by the rope-a-dope one too many times last night (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
AKDejaVu
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BTW, getting the enemy to stall has always been a maneuver used in any aircraft during any war. Energy rules supreme.. those who have more are at a distinct advantage.
Its foolish not to use that advantage.
AKDejaVu
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Read Bud Anderson's book "To Fly and Fight", in it he pretty much describes a straight up a vertical fight to the poit of both him and the 109 stalling out and falling away, then doing it over till he is able to shoot the 109. It did happend, here it prolly happends more than in RL due to more importance being placed on absolute capabilites of the planes since we all dont really care about gettting, o ummm, killed!
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You forget the sun, in the real life the single blind person, in AH the sun does not blind, if you blinded you do not see the enemy airplane in hammer, hammer towards against the sun and with ventaje of And much on the part of the Germans was always used.
Sorry for me bad english.
Supongo
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Nothing is as humiliating as falling for that move (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) I've been suckered in a 100 times, and every time I've banged my head against the keyboard, swearing that I'd never fall for it again. Those few times I've managed to pull it off myself always makes me grin - its a move that shows you are using more than stickpulling and if you feel it is cheating then you better keep that box of stress releaving sedatives around!
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BigUC
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i was on a rampage in H2H and nailed him more than a few times roping him. one variation of Artlaws being roped was him standing on his bellybutton shooting at my stalled 190a5 while animal blew him to hell from the side. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
it was much fun.
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Hehe Cit, after seeing Artlaws post exactly the same thread in here and also in the 'Training' forum, I figured he must have lost one too many fights to a good energy fighter.
C'mon Artlaws.. it's just a game. Getting suckered into a 'rope-a-dope' is nothing to be ashamed of (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
P.S. no matter how many times you tell someone not to follow a vertical fighter they will still do it. I know... I've been killed at least 100 times in a -rope-a-dope', and I've gotten at least the same number of kills from doing it to others.
It's almost hypnotic ... "He's going vertical ... yes I can get him ... Oh toejam no I can't ... I'm stalling ... where is he? ... Oh damn he's behind me ...(ping, ping, ping BOOM)".
[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 04-30-2001).]
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First of all ArtLwas, the view system in AH is MORE then good, we have the abilty to chnage head position to about everywhere and we have a 360 degree vision, we can look STRAIGHT behind us, we don't have any limited head movements or anything like that so stop complaining about that because it IS better then in Real Life, if you have ever tried flying a Singleseater while turning and looking around up in the sky, you'll notice it's pretty much harder then in AH.
Second, Hammerhead is a form of Enery tactics like all other said, rope and dope. It works even on the best pilots sometimes and then again, sometimes, if you missjudge the enemies E, you fail, might even get killed.
Suggest you find something a bit more important to complain about.
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/jg5wilbus.gif)
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Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson
III/JG5 Eismeer
"Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be."
Adolf Galland
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SO thats what a hammerhead is, never knew that, been doing it a lot but never knew it had a name. I get quite a few kills that way in LW AC. Interesting and this is a cheat? Ok from now on I wil not carry bullets in my guns.
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(http://members.home.net/cgoolsby6/sachs1.jpg)
[This message has been edited by AG Sachsenberg (edited 04-30-2001).]
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is IT possible to PERFORM a HAMMERHEAD in real LIFE???? yes. IS there a plane in AH PLANESET that is NOT capable of this MANOEUVRE? No. HOW is IT cheating THEN??? AND why AM I TYPING like THis??? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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lol
ArtLaws is just pissed that he is stupid enough to get suckered to a rope for like 5 times in a row.
It was hilarious, I thought his going postal on channel 1 about "hammerhead punks" was just a joke or a troll.
(MIND YOU, ArtLaws was flying Tempest against our 190a5, and he STILL lost several times to dumb rope'a dopes)
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get ready arena, now every time I get killed I will use ACM whines
SPLIT S DWEEB LEARN TO HO LIKE THE PROS
HAMMERHEAD PUNK CHEATER COME AND TURN FIGHT MY SPIT LIKE A MAN
LEAD TURNING ACM DWEEB COME CHASE ME DOWN TO MY OWN ACK LIKE THE REAL PILOTS DID IN WW2 YOU CHEATER
Trust me guys, forget about nik and chog whinning. ACM Whinning is the new wave!
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I've been killed many times by them also. More than I have killed. The last time I followed someone up was last Tour and it was Regurge, I thought he didn't see me comming till I got close enough to see his landing gear out to stall his plane faster. Then I said DAMM!!! I got suckered again!! The out come wasn't as bad, we ended up killing one another. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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am i going to see this in the o club too?
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I never follow any other plane in a climb unless I know for sure I have much more energy than them.
The hammerhead does take skill - it's all about timing. You don't want the pursuer too far away when you reach the maximum point in your climb, and you don't want them too close so that they shoot you in the arse. I've only ever done it a couple of times - most people will break off before they even start to stall.
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Now a hammerhead is cheating?
LOL
I'm the absolute last person you'll find squeaking about the N1K flight model, and I use variations of hammerheads, ropes, etc. all the time. You might want to rethink this one. It sucks to have your bellybutton handed to you in any way, shape, or form... and sometimes it sucks moreso because you feel that if you were coalt and co-E, you'd clean his clock. But fairness isn't always in the equation.
-- Todd/DMF, who racked up 21 kills in a P-47D-30 in H2H one night before running out of fuel... all using alt and rope-a-dopes.
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Shaw, figure 4-5, page 152.
Turn around at the top with elevator or rudder as the situation warrants, it works out the same either way if you set it up right.
All E tactics play on 1 or the other of the 2 strongest emotions in pilots: Fear and Greed. The rope-a-dope, in all its many forms, relies on Greed. Which means it's risky because good pilots see the trap and the attacker just wastes time, E, and often angles if the target doesn't bite. But it sure is fun when it works (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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-Bullethead <CAF>
In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria
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Thanks for the post ArtLaws, this has gotten me interested in learning the move. I've been killed with it countless numbers of times, but have never used it for myself and don't even have an idea of how to set up the manuever.
Anyone have some pointers on setting up this manuever? Thanks for the reference BH, I'll have to whip out "The Book" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
SOB
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handsomehunk.
-SW
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SOB,
Yep, this a dangerous, but tried and true way to kill.
A "hammerhead" here is rarely what is actually done. Most folks refer to any near-stall speed reversal at the top of a vertical zoom. Technically a hammerhead is where you zoom vertically until you hit nearly 0 airspeed, then hold it straight and kick rudder to reverse in a slide as you start falling again. Done right, you just spin the plane as you fall back down and then blast away at whoever is below you. Personally, I don't do a "correct" hammerhead. I normally will zoom vertically until about 50 mph, then pull back hard with elevator and kinda flop over. You may need some flap out to accomplish this.
Normally though, you don't want to have to flop at that low of a speed. Ideally, you will get the other guy to follow you up so that you can simply loop over the top at 150 or so. That way, you can simply hang inverted and wait for him to stall below you so you can drop down at the right moment and blast him.
It takes timing and skill to do properly. You also need to be a good judge of energy states, and be certain there are no enemy planes with superior energy near by who can shoot you when you are slow at the top of your zoom. You must also be aware of performance differences in the different planes, so you have an idea how long the other guy can hang there before he flops over and presents himself as an easy target. You need to set it up so that he is just out of guns range while he can point at you, and dive down just as he can't keep his nose up. It's tricky but very rewarding. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Now, what do you do if you are the lower/slower bogey, and ole Lephturn just blew past in his Jug and zoomed looking for the rope-a-dope? Easy, you play possum. Cit is the best I've seen at this. Basically, conserver your E and 0G dive whenever possible. You may have to avoid a few passes before you are ready for this. Now when the BnZ guy makes his pass and zooms, follow him up with a very gentle pull up, but try to cut the angle. Done right, you will zoom with him and close on him as he slows. Now comes the sneaky part! Nose over gently at 0G and pretend you are stalling and going back down. If it works, the attacker at the top will pull over the top and dive on you. If you have saved enough speed, pull your nose back up and blast him! At this point you have a couple of things going for you, surprise and airspeed. He is going to be surprised, and not expecting this. Also, the enemy will be slow having just reversed vertically at very low speed, and won't have very good directional control. If you can, shoot him in the face. Better still, avoid the head-on shot and reverse as he overshoots below you. Even if you don't kill him, you have just turned the tables on the BnZer and grabbed the advantage.
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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/) for AH articles and training info!
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If you're gettin' roped try this....
BEFORE you're out of E turn belly up to the roper...get him to come down but you maintain your alt...he'll dive by you <if he misses you> Voila...you've started to match E with him. THEN you can start talkin' smack to him for runnin' (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Lars
***MOL***
Men Of Leisure
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I should also add that this is bread and butter to a good E fighter pilot. There is nothing wrong with this move, it is simply a way to exploit a superior energy position. It is only a sucker move because the enemy has to participate. You can't really "do" a rope-a-dope, you just zoom after a gun pass as normal for a fighter with superior energy working a target. If the target is silly enough to try to zoom with you without enough energy, you simply fall on him as he stalls and gun his slow butt as he shows you his planform. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) This is one of the few attacks that the defender has to start for you.
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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/) for AH articles and training info!
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Originally posted by ArtLaws:
I have never made a single kill with the sucker move known as the
"HAMMERHEAD". Nor do I teach it to any I newbee I train. But they hear
about it and my experience.
I find allmighty interesting that an official Aces High Trainer does not teach the trainees wich is possibly the most effective way of fighting in Aces high if properly done; the rope a dope.
The rope-a-dope is the main example of good timing,correct E-situation reading (so a good SA is needed), E-fighting and correct vertical reversals. It is by no means easy to do a perfect rope a dope, because by no means is easy to do a proper, well-done vertical reversal in AH, and because the timing and the E-situations involved need a correct timing.
The rope a dope is not only important in any plane, it is an almost indispensable knowledge for planes like the 109g10. Not teaching your trainees how to do it, you make them not to know how to fight in certain fighters.
And, not only you should teach a trainee how to rope a dope an enemy for him to use it offensively, you SHOULd do it for him to learn NOT to get caught in a rope a dope.
Artlaws, saying what I've said avobe, I mean that I think that you are NOT a good official trainer. Take this not as an insult but as an opinion. One of the first things I was teached to do in aces high was how to fight in the vertical and how to use a better E-situation to force a rope-a-dope. By not teaching this to the guys you train you are,effectively, hurting their skills as AH pilots. And that is not what I would expect from a trainer.
[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 04-30-2001).]
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I think its fair to say that NO ONE agrees with you artlaws.
Maybe you should learn how to judge the energy state of your persuers so you can perform the extremely tricky timeing needed to perform this manouver well and use it yourself? oh i forgot that would mean using your brains and spacial awareness which, judging by what citabria and animal said, you obviously dont possess in abundance (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif).
As to your accusation that this manouver takes advantage of a veiw system failure well i say absolute roadkill (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
if anyone climbs in front of you use the forward left/right,up forward with left/right or the up veiw. you never 'lose sight' as you claim.If you have not used the excellent veiw system AH has properly thats your fault not the other players.
roped by a 190a5 in a tempest? ROFL (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Hazed
3./JG2 (http://members.home.net/winyah999/3jg2.htm)
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ROTFL. Art is the biggest nik whiner I've run into in H2H. He is one of the few that has went to the trouble to disable the nik. And only the nik in his arena.
I am glad you are getting to know him though.
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Originally posted by R4M:
I find allmighty interesting that an official Aces High Trainer does not teach the trainees wich is possibly the most effective way of fighting in Aces high if properly done; the rope a dope.
The rope-a-dope is the main example of good timing,correct E-situation reading (so a good SA is needed), E-fighting and correct vertical reversals. It is by no means easy to do a perfect rope a dope, because by no means is easy to do a proper, well-done vertical reversal in AH, and because the timing and the E-situations involved need a correct timing.
The rope a dope is not only important in any plane, it is an almost indispensable knowledge for planes like the 109g10. Not teaching your trainees how to do it, you make them not to know how to fight in certain fighters.
And, not only you should teach a trainee how to rope a dope an enemy for him to use it offensively, you SHOULd do it for him to learn NOT to get caught in a rope a dope.
Artlaws, saying what I've said avobe, I mean that I think that you are NOT a good official trainer. Take this not as an insult but as an opinion. One of the first things I was teached to do in aces high was how to fight in the vertical and how to use a better E-situation to force a rope-a-dope. By not teaching this to the guys you train you are,effectively, hurting their skills as AH pilots. And that is not what I would expect from a trainer.
[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 04-30-2001).]
Ram, being an expert flyer is not what is needed to become a trainer. ACM does not have to a specialty. The patience and ability to deal with the public, keeping a great attitude, and showing a willingness to help even if it involves sacrifice is much more important.
Artlaw may not be an ACM expert or knowledgable in all aspects of Air combat, but he is a good trainer in that he WANTS to help and is showing it.
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He has an arena right now titled "hammerhead ejected". You got to admit he is good for a chuckle.
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Originally posted by -ammo-:
Artlaw may not be an ACM expert or knowledgable in all aspects of Air combat, but he is a good trainer in that he WANTS to help and is showing it.
I could be absolutely willing to help someone, but then deny any kind of F4U1-C training to the one I am training. That would be in my book a bad example of trainer.
Artlaws doesnt like vertical fighting and rope-a-dope. Fine. But that doesnt exclude him to teach that kind of move/fighting to the ones who are training. He explicitly says that he doenst teach that and he doesnt plan to do it. So, that is something he must correct in order to be a better trainer. Because right now he is not. IMHO, of course.
Just my 0.02$
[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 04-30-2001).]
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Originally posted by R4M:
I could be absolutely willing to help someone, but then deny any kind of F4U1-C training to the one I am training. That would be in my book a bad example of trainer.
Artlaws doesnt like vertical fighting and rope-a-dope. Fine. But that doesnt exclude him to teach that kind of move/fighting to the ones who are training. He explicitly says that he doenst teach that and he doesnt plan to do it. So, that is something he must correct in order to be a better trainer. Because right now he is not. IMHO, of course.
Just my 0.02$
[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 04-30-2001).]
understood, but we have a number of trainers that can cover all the bases, I am the first to pass off to another trainer if I dont have the info or expertise. Thats how it works here.
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Obviously it's valid in AH, but was it used a lot in WWII? I think that's his point. I would think it was pretty rare considering the chance you were taking that the con had enough E to blow you away.
Can somebody post accounts of it's use in WWII?
bowser
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Dunno how much it was used in WW2. I bet most pilots were not willing to gamble following a plane in the verticle unless they were 100% sure of his e state.
That is to say, if there were as many dopes in WW2, I gaurantee this move would have been used more.
The rope-a-dope offers an excellent opportunity for someone with an alt disadvantage to disengage. People are less likely to do that here when their life is not on the line. I don't believe this was the case in reality.
BTW, I seriously doubt people want to fight with traditional WW2 tactics. Basically, sneak up behind them and pray you kill them before they notice you... if not run.
AKDejaVu
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BTW, one of my favorite kills is on someone that is trying to rope-a-dope a lower con and doesn't notice me coming in. To catch a plane at 200 yards right in the middle of a hammerhead is an awesome feeling (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
AKDejaVu
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If people wanna help newbys, hey more power to them.
But is he REALLY helping them, when he is not teaching them one of the most important maneuvers, and not even at least telling them how to counter it? Its not that he doesnt know how to do it and will ask another trainer, its that he will tell the newby that its not a valid move and it is cheating.
That newbie will have a very hard time on the MA for sure.
LOL and what DOES he teach them? The guy hates BnZ, when it is obviously one of the PRIMARY fighting tactics in the game. He wont teach vertical maneuvers. So what does he teach? take off/landings, shootings head on, and sustained turning?
I mean, ive seen this guy fighting. all he does is turn, turn, turn, and god forbid you to stop turning and try some ACM trick, for he will call you a cheater and eject you from his game.
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I believe i HammerHeaded my LA5 on him just last weak.. poor sap.. when will he learn????
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WarChild
VMF-323 ~Death Rattlers~
"Where's the Charmin!"
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I've been known to use rope-a-dope on (cough)occasion. Once you are experienced at it the move becomes an integral part of your technique.
To complete a good rope-a-dope you must have excellent SA and awareness of your opponents E, and his aircrafts capabilities.
Sorry, but its not a simple manoevre. Overestimate their status and you will not get back down in time for a shot, underestimate and they will blow you out of the sky.
I don't see what a limited view has to do with this move?
Maybe Artlaws is just jealous because he hasn't mastered it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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You talking to me? Huh? You talking to me?
hehehe j/k. :P
I love rope-a-dopes, just that I'm always the dope... Sounds like Artlaws is too...
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Originally posted by bowser:
Obviously it's valid in AH, but was it used a lot in WWII? I think that's his point. I would think it was pretty rare considering the chance you were taking that the con had enough E to blow you away.
Can somebody post accounts of it's use in WWII?
bowser
Well, not an actual kill, but a wonderful example of the art is given by Robert S Johnson in his account of a mock dogfight between his P47C and a new Spitfire IX.
The actual account runs on for some pages, check pp 184-185 in Shaw, but here is the conclusion:
"Then I played the trump. The Spitfire was clawing wildly through the air, trying to follow me in a roll, when I dropped the nose. The Thunderbolt howled and ran for earth. Barely had the Spitfire started to follow - and I was a long way ahead of him by now - when I jerked back on the stick and threw the Jug into a zoom climb. In a straight or turning climb, the British ship had the advantage. But coming out of a dive, there's not a British or German fighter that can come close to a Thunderbolt rushing upward in a zoom. Before the Spit pilot knew what had happened, I was high above him, the Thunderbolt hammering around. And that was it - for in the next few moments the Spitfire flier was amazed to see a less maneuverable, slower-climbing Thunderbolt rushing straight at him, eight guns pointed ominously at his cockpit".
Reality: 1
Artlaws: 0
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Jekyll
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
Aces High Training Corps
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I went into his h2h arena and tried to explain that there is actual documentation proving that the hammerhead was used, but he wouldn't listen.
What I found even more funny was that ammo was turned to unlimited. I immediately upped in a nikki! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) When I hammerheaded a 202, Art informed me that I would be kicked the next time i tried that cheating crap.
Man Cit/Animal, you traumatized him!
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....eight [.50 cal]guns pointed ominously at his cockpit.[/b]
lucky for him they didnt fire, hehe
[This message has been edited by G10potato (edited 05-01-2001).]
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Cool! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
HeHe
I got killed all the time by the HH. It is difficult to perform perfectly. Ant mistakes and you could be in world of dung.
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The hammerhead reversal is really a test of nerves in AH. You have to hit it at exactly the right time .... get too nervous during the zoom and try to 'force' it early, and your aircraft will kind of flop all over the place, completely out of control.
If you can wait until just the right moment, however, and feed in rudder control slowly but firmly, most planes in AH will perform beautiful hammerhead reversals.
Pre 1.04 it was practically impossible to do a smooth hammerhead in the F4U, due to engine torque. Now, its a popsiclecat to hammerhead. If you are vulching a field, it is THE way to do your reversals at the end of the runway.
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Jekyll
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
Aces High Training Corps
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Hblair you taking the missles?
Drex
[This message has been edited by Drex (edited 05-01-2001).]
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Originally posted by Vulcan:
To complete a good rope-a-dope you must have excellent SA and awareness of your opponents E, and his aircrafts capabilities.
Number one rule when engaging; "Never climb to a fight" always retain as much energy as possible to allow for BFM/ACM.
Last night Vulcan bounced me with his Tempest shortly after I took off in my Tiffie.
I was aware that he had more energy than I, so I remained level, gathered up as much speed as possible then waited for his dives.
Once I saw he was committed to the bounce, I pulled moderately into a flat turn, til I was 90deg perpendicular to his dive, then roll level and move outta the line of fire.
Then I reverse back in opposite direction to gain position behind him and do a slight climb, maintaining good airspeed.
This doesn't allow me to get guns on him, but it places me behind him where he can't shoot me.
It's a slow way to chip away at an enema's energy, and the kill usually goes to whomever has the most patience.
I'm lucky enough to have great squaddies who are eager to clear my six, so an average Rope-a-Dope has me climbing near vertical, an enema zooming up behind me, and an ASSASSIN poppin' him in his pooper at neat the top of his climb.
<S>
Milenko
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"ASSASSINS have BIGGER Joysticks!"
<< MILENKO >> (http://pages.hotbot.com/games/davekirk/milenko.html)
ACES HIGH ASSASSINS Website (http://www.cybrtyme.com/personal/hblair/mainpage.htm)
WB/AH ASSASSINS Website (http://members.xoom.com/rowgue/assassins.html)
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How many times in a row, can you do a hammerhead on someone who YOU KNOW is a "newbee" before you start to question what kind of pilot, player, and person you are. Of course it is a valid ACM. I never said "IT DIDNT HAPPEN AT ALL". I believe the AMOUNT of HH are exagerated and there are 2 things that make this possible. Your vision is impaired and the added inticement of an icon number, getting smaller and smaller, ever so slowly, in front of you. In war we want to kill people off permanently, in this game and community we shouldn't.....Im going to go put my rectantular buckit on my head now and run some red lights on my bicycle.
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How many times does someone have to be vulched before he learns not to respawn at a cap'd base? Do you feel guilty teaching the lessen?
How many times does a newbie have to overshoot a slowly rolling fighter before he learns to make the necessary adjustments? Do you feel guilty showing them the folly of their ways?
How many times does a newbie have to auger trying to fight NOE with a tighter turning aircraft? Do you feel guilty teaching them this lesson?
How many times does a newbie have to give up good position by diving to HO a co-energy plane that is able to turn the tables quickly? Do you feel guilty teaching them to hold any altitude advantage?
If experience doesn't teach newbies to avoid these situations, then I don't feel any pitty. If the trainers refuse to teach newbies to avoid these situations, then I say "hmmmmmm".
The hammerhead requires the victim do something very silly. Otherwise, its not a very wise tactic for getting a kill... only for staying out of gun range.
Also, most of my kills are a result of the enemy making some kind of mistake. I don't say "oh.. that's not really fair to take advantage of that mistake" and let him go. I kill him. That's what my job is in the game.
As a trainer, you need to focus on enlightening the newbies as to these cheesy kill situations. I do believe that teaching them to whine as loud as they can whenever it happens is not the route you should be pursuing.
AKDejaVu
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Deja is right on.
If I'm training a reasonably competant student who offers himself on a platter by following my zoom when he doesn't have enough energy, I'll ping him. If I'm training, I may only ping him with MG's lightly and re-set the fight. If I'm not specifically training, I'm going to wax him instantly.
It's only bad to continually wax a newbie the same way if you don't take the time to show him why and explain it. As long as you explain why it's not good, and try to teach the newbie something, that's all you can do. Some people never learn, but be patient and keep explaining it. Above all, NEVER back off. Once a student reaches reasonable proficiency, I will nail him each and every time he makes a mistake. It's my DUTY to do that. If I back off and don't take the easy kill, in the main arena he'll get slaughtered. I'll keep waxing him over and over and over and I'll keep explaining and working with him until he can defeat that move ever time, or as in this case, avoid that mistake.
Once again I point out.... nobody can "do" a rope-a-dope (this is really what we are talking about here, it's largely irrelevant that a hammerhead is used to reverse at the top of the zoom), the target has to start that move himself by making a mistake. If he does, I'm going to nail him for it. The only difference with being a trainer is that I'll make damn sure to explain it and help the other fellow learn how to avoid getting killed by it in the future.
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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/) for AH articles and training info!
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acm whining......now i've heard it all
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I think all of us.. ok almost all of us agree..
it's a valid move... learn from it or die from it... especially in the MA.
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It was the recommended P-47 tactic against the LW; Use a series of dives and zooms until the enemy would stall out before you, so you could reverse down on him.
Daff
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CO, 56th Fighter Group
www.56thfightergroup.org (http://www.56thfightergroup.org)
This is Yardstick, follow me"
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"...BTW, I seriously doubt people want to fight with traditional WW2 tactics. Basically, sneak up behind them and pray you kill them before they notice you... if not run..."
Actually a lot of people in Aces High DO use these tactics. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
bowser
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Actually Bowser, only some do. And we all know when it happens because chanel 1 is loaded full of "Damn runstang/hunstang/perk dweeb!" insults.
AKDejaVu
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Perk the Hammmerhead
Loops should cost 5 perks
Turns 2 perkies.
"Break left!"
"I can't, all outta perkies"
NUTTZ
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I think the average newcomer to a prop sim like AH is shocked to discover the planes do not have thrust in excess of weight of the A/C. Jet sim jocks suffer horribly till they wake up and realise the entire prop fighter experience is ENERGY v WEIGHT v POSITION. Jet sim jocks just fly POSITION..
The 'Rope a Dope' has been and will remain the #1 killer of low time pilots in prop A/C.
Hang
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Originally posted by NUTTZ:
Perk the Hammmerhead
Loops should cost 5 perks
Turns 2 perkies.
"Break left!"
"I can't, all outta perkies"
NUTTZ
ROFLOL Nuttz... that's a classic (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Jekyll
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
Aces High Training Corps
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I just wish someone would teach me this damned move ! ! ! Im sick of falling for it, and im sick of dying while trying. <S> anyone who can pull this off.
:cool:
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now let's look at the word "sucker move" kids.
you knowingly climb into a verticle chase, expending all of your energy, and "hoping" that "maybe"..."i'll get a good HO and get lucky".
...you knowingly do this? you are a SUCKER!
yes folks, there is such a thing kown as a sucker move, it's all those poor suckers out there that define the word for sucker for us.
so, what did we learn kids?
don't be a sucker.
bla bla bla...
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
BTW, one of my favorite kills is on someone that is trying to rope-a-dope a lower con and doesn't notice me coming in. To catch a plane at 200 yards right in the middle of a hammerhead is an awesome feeling
Yeah, a heck of a lot of my sadly low number of kills are this way. People who are roping dopes are usually awfully focused on the dope. And if you cruise around at 15K in a P-51 you'll find a lot of people at the top of their dope-roping at about 10K or so.
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I think the average newcomer to a prop sim like AH is shocked to discover the planes do not have thrust in excess of weight of the A/C. Jet sim jocks suffer horribly till they wake up and realise the entire prop fighter experience is ENERGY v WEIGHT v POSITION. Jet sim jocks just fly POSITION..
Damned well put Hangtime.
You need to throw in some of that hangtimeian grammer though; I miss all the "yer"'s and whatnot :cool:
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Nothing like a good old fashioned rope-a-dope. :D
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Hammer head..
U pay the ultimate price if you misjudge energy. A mediocre pilot like me feels that often.
It's not such a 'maddening' move. You risk it and when you suceed, WOO HOO ;)
If not, Boo Hoooo :(
I don't think there's much reason to be mad about a known maneuver.
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I'm really surprised at this thread, for a wealth of reasons:
1) I've flown a lot in Artlaws' H2H; never been booted, never seen it happen. I'm surprised at Artlaws' out burst here. Is it the same guy?
2) Last time I was there (Satyrday morning my time, I do believe); I was hovering over the furball in a Spit, booming and cherry picking, roping those that came after me and not only was I taunting them to climb up on Ch1, Art was openly warning them off, and we had a bit of a joke going about the process, so what gives here? Art himself was "reversing" to orbit every chance he got, blasting through the fight at 450, with guns blazing and controls locked up every every chance he got, and he tried roping me in his 109 at least twice when I dived in on him doing it.
3)Whilst arguing sim reality is a whole other endless thread; in the game, you teach what works. Teaching people a set of tactical doctrines that you patently know to be inappropriate for the envoiroment they will be faced with is a disservice.
I'll still be logging into Artlaws' arena, and using everything short of hacking to get the kills. I'll still be flopping at the top of the zoom, wishing it took less than a half minute for the dam Spit's flaps to come out while you spin dweebishly beneath me. I'll still be chopping throttle and snap rolling out of your way when you come screaming in, hair on fire and auger one more time for luck. Is killshooter off?
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LOL.... where do they get their training staff? Between him and gijeffie it's a zoo.
I like to see guys try the hammerhead. i only die if I'm bored. The Hog is good at faking out rope a dopers. try to hide your energy. The Hog climb is doggy and everyone knows it (it is even worse than the "real" hog but I hear they are gonna fix that). The Hog does zoom climb well tho and if you start at co alt with some smash you can follow em up and usually kill em long before anyone stalls. The hammerhead works best when the guy is allready above you before it starts and you've burned a lot of e just gettin somewhere close to his alt. If you sucker (or get bored into) this situation you will probly die. You gotta learn to ignore him in those situations. Be of good cheer... if he sticks around long enough he will get lower while you work your way up. let him be brought down by guys that are allready up there. All that climbing and alt gives me nosebleeds anyhow and.... it makes ya look like a sissy or a 51 pilot.
lazs
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Originally posted by Seeker:
1) I've flown a lot in Artlaws' H2H; never been booted, never seen it happen. I'm surprised at Artlaws' out burst here. Is it the same guy?
Note the date of the original post. Someone kicked this topic back to the top after it had died more than a month ago. It's entirely possible in that time that Art had a change of heart concerning this matter, especially after practicing it some more.
-- Todd/DMF
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CC Tod (Spits out hook)
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My thoughts on the High Rope a Dope or Hammerhead Maneuver.
Never Give A Sucker An Even Break!
W. C. Fields
And
Never Wizen Up A Chump!
P.T. Barnum
WrW
[ 06-18-2001: Message edited by: Damned Wrongway ]
[ 06-18-2001: Message edited by: Damned Wrongway ]
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thou... shall... not.... punt'eth!
ahhhhh! cant resist!
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What's funny is going vertical with Cit (flying a N1K) in tow knowing he has more E and knowing he didn't see the other plane. Sometimes you don't need to be the guy pulling the trigger to get a charge out of the explosion.
MiniD
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The HH is a perfectly valid tactic..and it was used in WW2.
It is harder to pull in AH because there is no sun... the hammerhead is a dangerous manouver to pull...for if you think about it, you are placing your own airplane in an extremely predictable flight path (UP!) but you also cannot manouver to evade incoming fire because if you do, you will slow down TOO fast and literally serve yourself as an easy kill.
In real life, the sun will make the opposing pilot have a real hard time bearing his guns on you..because of the sun glare. In AH, no sun glare means the virtual pilot has to rely exclusively on his SA (situational awareness..aka knowing opponent's E, alt, plane and sometimes even skill level) and timing..and luck (*cough* helon1k spraying cannon d1.1).
SOB: "Anyone have some pointers on setting up this manuever? "
I use this manouver a LOT in my P-38, I dont know if this will help you but this is what I do:
Firstoff the HH is not a manouver I 'set up'. If you plan to HH someone to death before the 1st merge, there's something really wrong with you (or you got Citardria's ego :D ). The HH is something I consider an emergency manouver.
Since the con is on your 6 already, the most important thing to make *absolutely* sure is that YOU have more E before attempting the HH. Best way ive found to do this is to do a sharp turn (preferably to the side the opposing plane is worse at turning due to torque) taking advantage of the 38's snap-turn ability and split-S followed by an immelman. The con in your 6 will very predictably go into lead persuit (aka point nose in front of your plane, pulling more g's, bleeding more E to get a shot at you).. This is to make him burn his energy and give you more advantage due to the 38's better acceleration (again, depends on enemy plane.. i will never HH a spit, 109g10, n1k or 190d9 unless im absolutely desperate).
On the top of the immelman I level and wep accel.. when the con in my 6 finishes his own immelman i wait for him to level and I go split-S again and repeat the immelman.
By the 2nd split-s & immel you will have made the con lose his E advantage and to boot he will likely think that when you split-s for a THIRD time that you are going to immelman again.
So, split-s for a third time, only dont wait for the con to follow you in the dive, get your speed to about 350mph and pull hard up into a zoom climb and bank the plane on its axis so you only show your side profile to the con as you zoom up. The con will at this point be either just starting his own split-s or be just entering his dive.. in short, has had no chance to gain speed. When the con sees you pulling up he will pull hard up on his stick to try a shot on you.
You will either get hit or zoom up past him.. cons very, very usually follow you up in the zoom firing... i almost always do lazy vertical sciscors to avoid being hit... and I watch my 6..when the con starts to LOSE distance i ready myself to flip over.. watch con..his nose starts to wobble or any other indication that he's starting to have control problems, I lower my throttle to 0. This makes the con suddenly GAIN on me, but its too late for him to get a shot, as usually the pilot on the other end either tries to spray and pray for a hit as he stalls or is too busy controlling his plane to notice he suddenly is gaining on me even though hes about to stall.
And the whole timing issue is right there. If you HH with your opponent being d800 behind you, chances are that by the time you flip over, he will already have nosed down and gained speed... effectively reversing the attacker/victim (which is good for you) but you wont get a shot at him. By timing it so your own plane stalls almost at the same time as his you will give yourself a perfect chance at shooting the con down as he tries to regain control after the stall (and the 38's superior low speed handling, no torque and superior initial acceleration will let you flip over fast, be in control and close in on the con before he starts to gain speed). Ideally I try to cut my engines when con has not been gaining on me in the zoom climb for little while or the instant I see him losing control... the 38's brick-like drag will slow you in an instant to stall speed.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Maybe Artlaws is just jealous because he hasn't mastered it [img]
Hes mastered at LEAST half of it... 8)
k
AoM
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what idiot dredged this one up again? was even pre mini d.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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**** you Lazs, this is a great thread!
;)
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I sure hope I come across ArtLaw the next time I get around to flying a bit... many a tear will be shed ;)
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Originally posted by lazs2
what idiot dredged this one up again? was even pre mini d.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
Sorry, couldn't resist. i guess i am an idiot.
Gotta be a 10+ on the whine-o-meter.
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to do a REAL hammerhead in this game? Could RL WWII planes do a REAL hammerhead? That is pull vertical 'till you've lost all speed then kick in the rudder and PIVOT around the wingtip and come back down. I've been playing this game since beta and have not yet figured out how to do a TRUE hammerhead consistently. Nor have I heard of any RL WWII aircraft that did it (though I'm sure some could have) 'cept for the P38. This is one area of flight sims that still leaves me wanting, post stall flight dynamics, lomcevaks anyone?
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You dont want to get Hammerheaded? Then fly a 109. Nothing moistens my drawers more than watching an energy fighter try to zoom my Gustav and then pull up and try to rope me. :D
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I don't use hammerheads. I tried to do em off-line (not that easy either) but what would be the point? Trying to rope someone is too risky anyway and doing a hammerhead is too predictable for higher cons.
Fly the G-10 a lot these days and it's damn hard to hit someone with that plane. But I love to see a Spit or Niki go vertical and go BAM-BAM-BAM from super close range when their airspeed is near zero and even they cannot evade quickly enough.
Many years ago I read an AW DOS manual, one of the rules given there was 'speed is life'. Indeed. Hanging on your prop makes you an easy target. Nice if you can pull it off and blast the sucker that stalled out before you did but not my style.
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OMG!
This age old topic is up again:rofl
I remember when this guy demand RogerWilco for Offical-traing in TA :rofl
G'old Art:)
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Originally posted by kappa
Hes mastered at LEAST half of it... 8)
And I bet it's not the 'hammer' half either:D