Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Midnight on December 04, 2002, 11:28:04 AM
-
Looking through all the current threads and posts there is a very bad trend forming.
The number of negative posts about AH and gameable scoring and rank calculations and poor damage model and lack of good maps and over simplified strategy elements and no-good contests are really piling up.
I hope there is something in the works to reverse the trend and let people get back to talking about how cool this game was/could be again.
The unfortunate part in all of this is that AH has the potential to become the ultimate combat sim, but the real-world implication of becoming more of a sim and less of a game is the financial impact of lost revenues. It's the common denominator of the easily distracted and short attention spans of the majority in the public domain that force the gaming industry to put more effort into point and click fun rather than developing something that can engage the thinking mind.
If you think about it, it really doesn't make a lot of sense.
When you get a boxed game, do you send the most time playing in the H2H arenas, or playing the off-line campaign or story?
When you got Half-Life, how many countless hours (continuous) did you spend trying to work your way through all the levels and get to the end? Eventually, you probably tried the H2H arenas and had some fun there too.
About how long did it take for you to get bored of the constant re-spawning and killing and being killed by the same guys over and over again? Probably a lot less time than it took to get bored of playing the off-line campaign.
Why? Because in the off-line campaign, there was a goal. There was something to work for and things that had to be learned in order to win. You had to try new strategies and tactics and work to find the best means of survival.
Once you played H2H for an hour, how much fun was it? You always ended up in the same basic map with no need to figure out a strategy to win, just go out, find the enemy and shoot him.
The AH main arena is getting like that. Strategy is all but useless because it has not real effect on anything. Trying to use tactics to gain the upper hand is pointless because the enemy never runs out of supplies to fight back.
It seems like the only way to win a battle in AH is by over-whelming numbers. Eventually, one of the combatants gets bored and gives up and either logs off in frustration, or goes somewhere else to make a new fight.
It would be nice if winning the war was something that was accomplished with strategy and planning, rather than a constant rolling pig-pile on the country with the fewest players.
-
I really don't know where you are coming from Midnight. The fact of the matter is that a massive online multiplayer game, like AcesHigh, has far greater sustaining power than any boxed game.
The reason is that the players can set the goal, the rules and the tactics. A boxed game has but one personality that players can soon grow weary of. A game like AcesHigh can have as many personalities as the players' imagination can contrive.
The fact that massive assaults are so prevalent in AcesHigh is because of the defined goal of arena capture. This requires capturing as many bases as fast as you can using the best tactics to accomplish this. Fighting over a base only delays its capture. A massive assault that can't be blocked, especially against a poorly defended base, or a sneak attack on a city are the quickest ways to grab agriculture.
That's fine for some, but not all players have to play that game. Players can gather in a seperate area and play whatever way they like. For example, there are many fierce battles going on in different areas over just a couple bases, which can go on for hours. There the objective can be to fight each other until a base is captured or destroyed, and then move on, or just dogfight... maybe in certain types of planes. Since there is no race to see who can get the most territory, fighting each other is acceptable. (It's also better for meeting new people on all sides.)
Don't be a mindless drone running on the arena hampster wheel. When you tire of that, grab some friends and go off to the side to play the type of game you enjoy. Then you are taking full advantage of a massive online multiplayer game, where you can fight other people instead of a computer.
-
I just grab a plane (or a tank, whatever) and go around looking for some cheap fun....it is afterall only $14.95
I used to have grand visions of AH being something it isnt and probably never would successfully be anyways.......who knows.
One things fer sure, I would not pay $29.95 for what AH is today.
Just too crowded, way too many dorks.
Im still hoping the mission arena becomes something. What I dont know, but still....hope is good.
-
Originally posted by Yeager
I just grab a plane (or a tank, whatever) and go around looking for some cheap fun....it is afterall only $14.95
I used to have grand visions of AH being something it isnt and probably never would successfully be anyways.......who knows.
One things fer sure, I would not pay $29.95 for what AH is today.
Just too crowded, way too many dorks.
Im still hoping the mission arena becomes something. What I dont know, but still....hope is good.
I couldn't add anything to this...other than DITTO!
-
Originally posted by Yeager
One things fer sure, I would not pay $29.95 for what AH is today.
Just too crowded, way too many dorks.
Life has too many dorks, it's just that they feel more free to act up in cyber space than when confronted with real people. I fear it's something we have to put up with... there's no refuge.
-
Originally posted by Yeager
I just grab a plane (or a tank, whatever) and go around looking for some cheap fun....it is afterall only $14.95
I used to have grand visions of AH being something it isnt and probably never would successfully be anyways.......who knows.
One things fer sure, I would not pay $29.95 for what AH is today.
Just too crowded, way too many dorks.
Im still hoping the mission arena becomes something. What I dont know, but still....hope is good.
May just be me, but it didn't seem as "dorky" back a year, year and a half ago, maybe even as far as 2 years, as it does now.
-
Beta was a blast. Best time I ever had on a computer bar none.
AW closing down and everyone crowding in here was great and all, but the game became harder for me to enjoy.
Still fun tho........
-
I'm not saying I like boxed games any better. I haven't played one since Half-Life Opposing Force.
My point is that there was a strategy involved to win.
I am frustrated with the AH gaming because strategy doesn't mean anything. Supplies are endless and lifes are unlimited. There is nothing that can control the speed at which land can be captured and give the feeling of a war being fought by thinking about how to win and what could be done to have the most effect on the enemy.
Mission planning is pointless in the MA becuase of this. If you spend 15 minutes planning a strike on the enemy, the target you palnned on hitting may already be destroyed, or the base you planned on using as a start point could be captured by the enemy.
The infinite supply system allows a single base to capture 10 and those 10 to capture 20, all without having to stop and resupply or think about the best means to advance or produce some sort of supply line to keep the offense moving forward.
As I said before, and as Grizzly responded, a fight just slows the war down. Get a big enough pig pile and just keep on pushing to win the reset. It would be nice if resources wore thin and there was some type of supply system that meant something other than for LANCs to drop a single 4K bomb on to bolster their rank.
-
Beta was a blast. Best time I ever had on a computer bar none.
Yep. Me too.
-
Well... strategy and the ability to quickly over run the enemy with a well-implemented strategical plan exists...
To date, I haven't seen anyone actually implement it because it takes organisation and time.
I'm just saying... it's up to the players to play the game how they see fit, and apparently they see it as a 24/7 quakeball with the ability to capture fields.
-SW
-
Originally posted by Yeager
One things fer sure, I would not pay $29.95 for what AH is today.
Just too crowded, way too many dorks.
at least 50% of the dorks would disappear if the price went up 100%
-
In doom i didn't even finish the single player mode. Since then can't remember a game where multiplayer wasn't the reason to play it.
Before doom, there weren't many multiplayer capable games.
-
Right on, Yeager, although I don't worry too much about crowding and dorks, mostly because sometimes I'm part of a crowd and one person's hero is another person's dork, and vice versa.
Aces High has to be the world's greatest entertainment bargain. I particularly value the freedom it allows to select whatever kind of engagement I'm in the mood for.
I usually do not play Aces High to become part of someone else's grand strategy to conquer the world. I favor fringe fights up close and personal. That's why the oft maligned pizza map is one of my favorites, and why the Combat Arena is often more fun and challenging.
It may be impossible to please all the people all the time, but I think Aces High does a great job of trying and coming as close to succeeding as anything can given the high expectations of cyber surfers on the cutting edge.
-
AT LEAST 50 % OF THE DORKS WOULD LEAVE IF THE PRICE WENT UP 100%
And at least 50% of those that aren't dorks that would sure make a lot of CENTS (pun intended) to HTC
-
The differences between Boxed sims and MMP's are as follows:
1) Boxed: Usually mission based with AI opposing you. You suck until you find out the weakness of the AI and exploit it to the fullest and then dominant...becomes boring and you throw it away......
2) MMP-Humans instead of AI means strengths and weakness
are infinite. You never know if the guy you bounce is great/good/bad etc...MUCH MUCH more intertwining than AI. Nobody would disagree. I think where I have a problem is the tactics necessary to win the game are very-very-very simple and unrealistic. The Human element has kept this game entertaining eventhough it's framed in a very-very-very unrealistic-primitive setting. Bombing Hangers year after year is quite a bore.
-
Originally posted by Yeager
Beta was a blast. Best time I ever had on a computer bar none.
AW closing down and everyone crowding in here was great and all, but the game became harder for me to enjoy.
Still fun tho........
I am very sorry i ruined ur fun :p
-
no your not :)
-
Originally posted by 28sweep
The differences between Boxed sims and MMP's are as follows:
1) Boxed: Usually mission based with AI opposing you. You suck until you find out the weakness of the AI and exploit it to the fullest and then dominant...becomes boring and you throw it away......
2) MMP-Humans instead of AI means strengths and weakness
are infinite. You never know if the guy you bounce is great/good/bad etc...MUCH MUCH more intertwining than AI. Nobody would disagree. I think where I have a problem is the tactics necessary to win the game are very-very-very simple and unrealistic. The Human element has kept this game entertaining eventhough it's framed in a very-very-very unrealistic-primitive setting. Bombing Hangers year after year is quite a bore.
Yes, this is basically what I am trying to say.
-
Yeah, nobody plays here anymore. It just got too crowded.
-
someone should dig up BBs "The Golden Age" essay.
-Sik
-
I found it more "playeable" around 12:00 -> 17:00 CET, around 70 to 100 (usualy polite)poeple online. (Yeager get a night job, so you can join us ;))
I stilll find it more fun to play evenings though, when squaddies are online ... they are the main reason I'm here most evenings. You'll never find that in boxed games.
-
No flame fest here but...
Originally posted by Midnight [/i]
I'm not saying I like boxed games any better. I haven't played one since Half-Life Opposing Force.
My point is that there was a strategy involved to win.
I am frustrated with the AH gaming because strategy doesn't mean anything. Supplies are endless and lifes are unlimited. There is nothing that can control the speed at which land can be captured and give the feeling of a war being fought by thinking about how to win and what could be done to have the most effect on the enemy.
That is simply not true. Every enemy field has strat targets which will impede the advance of the enemy if taken out, be it fuel, ordinance or troops. Granted, they wont stay down forever, but it can have a major impact on an advance. With the new 'zone' strat system, an advancing team can stop themselves by porking bases that they don't control the resupply of with the zone field, and defending forces can do the same. With proper planning and a small amount of organization, a large attacking force can be stopped dead in its tracks.
Mission planning is pointless in the MA becuase of this. If you spend 15 minutes planning a strike on the enemy, the target you palnned on hitting may already be destroyed, or the base you planned on using as a start point could be captured by the enemy.
While this is true, it's almost always the result of poor planning. Mission planning is a very effective way of achieving objectives if it's planned correctly, and there is is enough participation to achieve the intended goal.
The infinite supply system allows a single base to capture 10 and those 10 to capture 20, all without having to stop and resupply or think about the best means to advance or produce some sort of supply line to keep the offense moving forward.
The supply system is not infinite and can be stopped. The means to do this are published on HTC's website. And while they will auto-regenerate in time, the immediate effect on destroying strat targets can be devestating to an attack if done correctly. Again, the new 'zone' system emphasizes this and allows for (almost overly) easy control of an enemy's advance.
As I said before, and as Grizzly responded, a fight just slows the war down. Get a big enough pig pile and just keep on pushing to win the reset. It would be nice if resources wore thin and there was some type of supply system that meant something other than for LANCs to drop a single 4K bomb on to bolster their rank.
A war is a fight. Get a big enough pig pile, and get an organized enough group of resistance attacking their sources, and you have a pissed off pig pile. Again, not a flame against you Midnight, just don't see eye to eye with you on the subject.
-
Lazerus
Everything you pointed out is common knowledge. Of course the strat targets at a field can be destroyed, but that's not the point.
What I am saying is there should be a limit on the amount that is available, so if one side is attacking a heavily outnumbered enemy they would need to plan their attacks so their resources don't get spread too thin and they are unable to sustain the attack.
And the strats that can be destroyed hardley have an effect that lasts long enough to be noticed.
What I would like to see is a system where supply lines need to be built in order to maintain an airfield.
Example:
When an enemy field is captured, the available supplies there are at 0% for the country that made the capture. The airfield which is closest to the newly captured field would then send out a supply convoy that would travel to the captured field. Each truck that left to make a supply run would take a certain percentage of the resourses at the field it left from. For each truck that arrived at the captured field, the resources would go up by a fixed percentage. The entire supply line could go all the way back to HQ or the factories. Fields closer to the supply sources would be supplied more often and be able to send more supplies to other fields. As fields got further from the source (HQ) there resupply rates would drop off.
To add some infastructure to this, the system could be designed so that the resupply rates would be increased as time went on, to simulate more effcient resupply efforts and improved roads, etc.
If supply convoys get destroyed, then the fields in need of those supplies start to run low on resources and cannot sustain themselves, making it easier for the enemy to re-take the field.
Basically, it would stop a map from being reset in 3 hours (which happens quite frequently) and bring in some tactical aspect to the game. Players could take up new roles such as defending supply routes from planes that might be trying to shut them down. Trains might become a viable target rather than just a rolling AA platform like they are now.
Put something into the game other than the endless attack and capture that we have now. It would give the outnumbered country that is pushed down to only a few bases a chance to fight it out by sending out search and destroy missions to cut off the enemy supply lines.
The way the game is now, who goes out to hit the enemy strat targets when their country is taking a beating and they are outnumbered 4-to-1? Very few I would bet, because they know that even if they succeed in killing the Ammo facotry, the enemy still has unlimited ammo at all of thier fields.
-
fffreeze220 quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am very sorry i ruined ur fun
====
Hey, NP. Like I said, still lots of fun, just not like it was before.
I have found this parallel in many facets of life so its not surprizing that it should occur here as well......
Its more of a ZEN thing I guess.
-
S! all
Well said Halo, I salute you!
As a former victim of AW111's demise, I at first thought this game was not going to work for me. It only took a couple days learning just the basics of the basics for me to realise how great this game is.
For under 15 bucks you get all kinds of planes, bombers and gv's. not to mention PT boats and CV's. I for one am still amazed that I can fly with so many different folks from all over the world. What a blast!
Maby its just my little knowledge of PC's and online gaming but I think its a great game. Out of all the people flying I have only run across two or three who seem to want to spoil every ones good time. Everyone else I fly with or fight against make up alot of what this game is all about, having fun.
I salute you all S!
David (Daddy Rabbit) Jester
99TH ASTAG "Swift to Revenge"
-
Originally posted by Yeager
fffreeze220 quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am very sorry i ruined ur fun
====
Hey, NP. Like I said, still lots of fun, just not like it was before.
I have found this parallel in many facets of life so its not surprizing that it should occur here as well......
Its more of a ZEN thing I guess.
What the MA primary is suffering from are to many players doing the same thing. GANGING.
AW had a 250 player limit and it was great. For sure we had furballs but it was not so crowded like it is in the MA.
If we would have a biggerspectrum of things we could do in the MA that would make sence, like bombing factories, industrie, plane factories whatever. A lot of people would do stright jabo missions or bomber mission.
But as long as we have hangers to bomb or industrie with 8 buildings there is no use for such a things.
But if we would more to do then just hording a field the fun would maybe come back.
Instead of plane after plane we need new targets thats all.
The strat system on the Pizza map is a good beginning. But not stop here and relax.
I am sick of the MA gang and i am sick of wasting my time just to get jumped by the next pilot that comes around.
-
Originally posted by Midnight
Lazerus
Everything you pointed out is common knowledge. Of course the strat targets at a field can be destroyed, but that's not the point.
What I am saying is there should be a limit on the amount that is available, so if one side is attacking a heavily outnumbered enemy they would need to plan their attacks so their resources don't get spread too thin and they are unable to sustain the attack
And the strats that can be destroyed hardley have an effect that lasts long enough to be noticed..
I don't agree, if the barracks/fuel/ord are down at the closest fields, it has a major effect on an attack. Well, the ordinance not so much, but the fuel available has a large impact on an attack, and troops being disabled can frustrate even the most determined onslaught. The new strat system that is active on the 'pizza' map gives players an opportunity to magnify the effect of this loss of resources.
What I would like to see is a system where supply lines need to be built in order to maintain an airfield.
Example:
When an enemy field is captured, the available supplies there are at 0% for the country that made the capture. The airfield which is closest to the newly captured field would then send out a supply convoy that would travel to the captured field. Each truck that left to make a supply run would take a certain percentage of the resourses at the field it left from. For each truck that arrived at the captured field, the resources would go up by a fixed percentage. The entire supply line could go all the way back to HQ or the factories. Fields closer to the supply sources would be supplied more often and be able to send more supplies to other fields. As fields got further from the source (HQ) there resupply rates would drop off.
To add some infastructure to this, the system could be designed so that the resupply rates would be increased as time went on, to simulate more effcient resupply efforts and improved roads, etc.
If supply convoys get destroyed, then the fields in need of those supplies start to run low on resources and cannot sustain themselves, making it easier for the enemy to re-take the field.
Basically, it would stop a map from being reset in 3 hours (which happens quite frequently) and bring in some tactical aspect to the game. Players could take up new roles such as defending supply routes from planes that might be trying to shut them down. Trains might become a viable target rather than just a rolling AA platform like they are now.
Put something into the game other than the endless attack and capture that we have now. It would give the outnumbered country that is pushed down to only a few bases a chance to fight it out by sending out search and destroy missions to cut off the enemy supply lines.
The way the game is now, who goes out to hit the enemy strat targets when their country is taking a beating and they are outnumbered 4-to-1? Very few I would bet, because they know that even if they succeed in killing the Ammo facotry, the enemy still has unlimited ammo at all of thier fields.[/B]
I think this an excellent idea, and one that HTC has started to implement in essense. You have several ideas there that take it to another level, and I hope HTC reviews them and incorporates them into the gameplay of AH as they see fit.
OK, thats the most I've typed on the BBS in almost a year, I'm done for a little bit :p
-
Originally posted by Lazerus1
OK, thats the most I've typed on the BBS in almost a year, I'm done for a little bit :p
Since when is pasting writing eh ? :)
-
Not including the quotes
:p
-
It's getting Hot in here......:D
-
Midnight,
I agree with your sentiments.
Many of us have posted many suggestions as to changes to better integrate strategic assets into the game. Of course some of us, such as Lazs and Hazed, have posted the exact opposite desire.
But what it boils down to is that I simply don't think the strategy portion of the MA is going to improve. Based on things I've read and a brief communication with HTC I just don't foreseen any really changes to the strategic portion of the game. The way I see it they might fiddle with the downtime effects on items governed by strategic targets, but that's about it.
Personally I don't think downtime means jack. Its so unimportant that nobody notices. The fact that C-47s and M3s can resupply cities and factories (which I think is rediculess in concept) means that it simply isn't worth the effort to bomb them. You have more of a positive effect for your country by flying a clean fighter than you do in a bomber sortie that takes five times as long.
Add to that the upcoming Me163 that will make the HQ (the one strategic target worth hitting) nearly impossible for bombers to get.
I think bombers will become even rarer than they are now in 1.11.
Of course I could be wrong and HTC could surprise me. I wouldn't complain about it.
-
Midnight, many people get a wild hair up their arse right before the possible release of a new version. Happens before every drop. Nature of the beast.
Hope that helps! :)
-
I blame it on Saw;)
-
at least 50% of the dorks would disappear if the price went up 100%
Dumbest damn thing I've heard in a while... and that's saying something. :D
-
<--- tempted to post a "Vote on Lazer suckyness" post :D
-
Things have changed, but not neccessarily for the worse. I started playing back in July 2000, the game had been around a year and was still quite small. I enjoyed the MA more back then, than now, but that's probably because AH was the first massively multiplayer game I'd tried. I knew the map SFMA inside out, but I don't play enough to recognise any part of the pizza map. Or any of the others.
The scenarios are better than they used to be that's for sure, but I still remember the first snapshot I played - the 'Memphis Belle'. There were about 20+ B17s and one of them was designated as the Belle. The aim was to protect the Belle from the LW (who didn't know which one it was). It was great fun.
-
Midnight - I tend to agree, and found myself nodding to much of what you wrote. A few moons ago, I made the suggestion in this thread (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52208) to turn off the bardar and mission editor. Since then, I've seen Mission Editor instigated gangbangs calling for 40 (FORTY!) goons.
My favourite recent analogy of the MA is a hamster wheel!. Says it all... I would be all for stealth missions, but in this community those are simply dismissed as "milk runs". I can't see how these can be described as runs to undefended bases. If they ARE undefended, it's not the fault of the attacker. We've got bardar, "base under attack", radar, the flashing map - all these things clearly give warning of an impending attack. And the result is that the enemy is already up, waiting for you to arrive, and the nett result is another furball.
In the current MA, with a slow climbing plane like a F4U or P47, it can be difficult to gain attack alt. without running into the skirmish next door in one direction, cherry pickers in another direction, and your own target area in the other direction. And then there's the angry mob coming down from a distant field to defend the one from which they can't take off...
-
Originally posted by Midnight
When you got Half-Life, how many countless hours (continuous) did you spend trying to work your way through all the levels and get to the end? Eventually, you probably tried the H2H arenas and had some fun there too.
Half life is still the most played online game in the world. But its not the original boxed version...it's through the the mods.
And this is where AH strength lays in it's ability to keep changing. AH should continue developing and changing and hence the game essentially changes...hopefully for the better...sometimes not, but in every release AH gains something positive.
Tronsky
-
Originally posted by Midnight
It seems like the only way to win a battle in AH is by over-whelming numbers. Eventually, one of the combatants gets bored and gives up and either logs off in frustration, or goes somewhere else to make a new fight.
It would be nice if winning the war was something that was accomplished with strategy and planning, rather than a constant rolling pig-pile on the country with the fewest players.
A couple of suggestions:
(a) more vehicle hangars at the bigger airports. A medium airfield should have 2 vhs, the large ones should have 3 or 4. This would make the fields easier to defend and more difficult to capture.
(b) more ports and carriers. This would spread out the war a bit more by allowing an attack anywhere. Theoretically, if the Bishops are massing an attack, then there should be a vulnerability there somewhere, but without a carrier with which to strike, those distant bases are wildlife preserves.
(c) more effective airfield AA guns for players. The ROF for the current guns is way too slow. At least give us some dual .50s as options to the slow-firing 37mm. And sandbags around the guns for protection would be nice too.
-
Midnight, I know what you mean. Personally, that's why I basically only fly Special Events now and am on the CM team. The only MA time I get is after the Friday nite TOD because that's squad night. Honestly, those few hours on Friday night are as much MA as I want the whole week.