Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: beet1e on December 05, 2002, 07:01:16 AM
-
It’s been in Europe almost a year now, except for pockets of resistance like Denmark, Sweden and the UK. It seems fine to me, and means I no longer have to have a purse with a multitude of different compartments for all the different currencies when travelling in Europe. Just pounds and euros. I’ve heard stories about prices rising dramatically in euro states– are these stories true? Some folks say that the different member states have economies which grow at different rates, and that a single currency cannot work, without a federal government, and a system of federal taxes and grants. But then again, the wealth and prospects (and prices) of London & the south east are vastly different from those of somewhere like Jarrow, County Durham, meaning that the UK has more than one economy, but with the same currency. :confused:
I would welcome the Euro, if it would work – but will it? Can it? Hope to hear the views from the 12 countries that adopted it.
-
From an economic point of view it didn't change anything for me except when I 1st received my bank account balance ,reading 1000€ and understanding 1000FRF was quite a shock :D (6.59 FRF == 1 €)
For a pratical stand point I've been to Italy last week and it was really usefull to have the same money !
-
prices rising dramatically
thats true, but its not €uro fault, its the whole situation
on the world market that is not that bright right now.
If germany would still hold his Deutsche Mark, it would
be the same situation IMO.
regards
gh0stft
-
I'm not an economist, so I can only speak from my day-to-day experience, and that says that although the government (with some magic number engineering) insists in saying that prices have not risen, it's A LOT harder to keep up with monthly bills than last year was. I even had to cancel my AH account... :mad:
-
I'm not a European. I'm British, Golly-geen it. ;)
But seriously, I have family in Spain (Zaragoza, to be precise), and they say shops were rounding up converted prices - this has been mirrored across Europe apparently. No doubt it would happen in the UK.
Personally, if it strengthens the European economy, then fine. But the idea of the British economy being so inextricably linked to such a disperate collection of economies worries me. Especially weaker economies.
I also would like to know how much control we would have over economic policy - interest rates and the like. I'm not too keen on the fact that we would have to move our national gold reserves to Brusselles.
I'm deeply suspicious of the corruption and waste that eminates from the upper echelons of the EU gravy train. Some aspects of it are distinctly undemocratic. I want reform.
Investors want the Euro - but the issues affecting big business investors are not the same as those affecting me and you. A stable EU economy is essentially, what I would be interested in.
-
Germany wants to reduce its interest rates to fuel growth for recovery.
France wants them to stay as they are as growth is nearly about right there.
Eire desparately wants to increase interest rates to slow consumer debt & bring inflation down.
Germany will set the rate with a mind to France but Eire can GFI
The UK ...can do what ever it wants...............
-
Considering all the new candidates for the EU, I want my stable mark back.
-
On the purse thing... I think it would be nice if you could have a lighter purse.. My girlfriend is allways happy when she has less to carry in her purse.
on the gun thing...
"Alan Travis, home affairs editor
Friday February 23, 2001
The Guardian
England and Wales have one of the worst crime records in the industrialised world - even worse than America - according to the findings of an official survey published yesterday which compares the experience of victims across 17 countries.
The study, coordinated by the Dutch ministry of justice, shows England and Wales at the top of the world league with Australia as the countries where you are most likely to become a victim of crime. These countries face an annual rate of 58 crimes for every 100 inhabitants.
The findings, based on interviews with 35,000 people about their experience of crime across the 17 countries, were carried out last year. They are a blow to Labour's record and underline the challenge facing Tony Blair when he marks the launch of Labour's 10-year anti-crime plan next Monday by becoming the first serving prime minister to visit a prison.
The 2000 International Crime Victimisation survey shows that the falls in crime recorded since the mid-1990s in England and Wales are part of a general pattern of falling crime across the industrialised world but, unlike America, crime levels in England and Wales are still higher than they were at the end of the 1980s. When the survey was last carried out in 1996, England and Wales also topped the league table with 61 offences per 100 inhabitants.
The survey does show, however, that Britain has the best services when it comes to looking after the victims of crime, but it also shows we have a tougher approach to punishing criminals. Asked what should be done with a burglar convicted of stealing a colour television for a second time, more than 50% in England and Wales said he or she should be sent to prison for two years. Only 7% in Spain and 12% in France thought he or she should be jailed at all.
People were asked whether they had been victims of a range of 11 different offences in the previous 12 months, including violent and sexual assault, car crime, burglary and consumer fraud.
The survey also shows that Scotland, with 43 offences per 100 inhabitants, ranks joint fifth alongside America in the international crime league behind England, Australia, the Netherlands and Sweden. Northern Ireland has the second best crime record of the countries surveyed, with 24 offences per 100 inhabitants - the same rate as Switzerland and only just above Japan where the biggest crime problem is bicycle thefts. The detailed findings of the ICVS survey showthat England and Wales are top of the international league for car thefts with 2.6% of all car owners suffering the loss of their vehicle in the previous 12 months. In other sorts of car crime, England was second only to Poland.
Australia and then England and Wales had the highest burglary rates and rates for violent crimes such as robbery, assault and sexual assault "
the result of the backward thinking of the home office is the brutalizing of its helpless citizens... helpless to defend themselves against the strong and the vicious... a trajic example of "form over substance"... "let them eat cake" The lawless run england... In America... 3,000,000 such crimes are prevented by firearms each year... citizens have freedom and dignity one good thing about englands crime rate.... they have, obviously by necessity, learned to care for the traumatized, humiliated and injured victims...guess that's something
-
The euro is all nice and practical... no problem.
The problem is the b*****s who converted their prices 1 euro = 100 pesetas, when in fact 1 euro = 166 pesetas, I say f***k them.... I hardly step into a bar, cafe or restaurant anymore. They can stuff their 60% overpriced coffee right up theirs, and then sue themselves if it is too hot.
-
lol Takeda :D
That's what my relatives were effectively saying.
-
I am not getting this.... It seems that if a merchant rounded his prices up that he would not be competitive with the guy that didn't..
lazs
-
Lazs, maybe your gf's purse would be lighter if she left her handgun and deer hunting rifle at home.;)
-
Lazs.... that only happens in the Capitalist Carebear Wonderland, here, in the real world, the minute you look the other way, a concerted price gouging wannabe cartel is forming. And doesn't matter if the government regulates prices or not, in free markets, as the one I mentioned, as soon as one bar rises its prices... it's a signal for the others to follow... no one wants to be the idiot making less... In somewhat regulated markets (i.e Telcos and electric companies) the government keeps raising the top allowed prices arguing they have to "converge" with european prices (while we keep getting paid less than half on average).
-
The Euro is great, individuals only notice its effects when they're abroad on vacation, but for enterprises and institutions who deal with other countries it's absolutely fabulous. It makes all international transactions so much more transparant, easier, quicker and cost-efficient. And all those rumours on ridiculous price increases, only a few percents can be traced back to the Euro, and yes that has been researched. In a few years those increases will probably amount to zero, compared to what the prices would have been then without the Euro.
So apart from all kinds of uninformed people who claim out of prejudice that their lives have gotten more expensive (yes, the Euro is an convenient excuse to cover up your own incompetence in personal financial management) the introduction of the Euro has been a predominantly positive development.
-
Dowding - I think you are too young to remember when Britain converted to decimal currency. I was 16 then, and remember some prices had to be rounded. Initially there was a ½p coin - not popular, so they got rid of it, and everything got rounded again - including, one assumes, pay packets. But I don't think we would notice any € induced rounding. I mean Gordon Brown thinks we won't notice his stealth taxes. :rolleyes:
In Spain, I am not familiar with day to day price changes, but I did notice that the tolls on the autopista were very unrounded values, like €4.07. The really annoying thing would be when the next toll was €3.93! Why not make 'em both €4.00?
LOL Lazs! Feels weird having you here amongst us pissants. Ask SMML if you need help translating "autopista"! :D
-
the introduction of the Euro has been a predominantly positive development.
I agree.
yes, the Euro is an convenient excuse to cover up your own incompetence in personal financial management
Last week I paid 1.20 Euro in the cafe down the corner for what exactly one year ago was 130-140 pesetas. (Remeber, 1 Euro=166.386 pesetas). I can be an incompetent dilapidating moron, but l can still multiply.
The fact is that the cheaper the goods, the higher has been the rounding up, as if the merchants thought that riping you off just a few cents wasn't that bad. Stuff like chewing gum or candy that was 5, 10 or 15 pesetas has gone straight to the same price in cents in most places. Just a few months into this year you could see 8 year old kids rioting for a pocket money increase on TV :D
[edit]Prices of "autopistas" are still government regulated, that could have something to do with it[edit]
-
Capitalist Carebear Wonderland
HEHEHE!
-
The Euro sucks, since the introduction prizes got higher.
-
OK I retract the Capitalist Carebear Wonderland thing .... let's say the Adamsmithsonian Theme Park... yes, that lovely place where offer and demand really set the prices and you have true competition in true free markets :)
lovely half-assed capitalism still seems to work better than toejamty half-assed communism, though it is still toejamty and half-assed
-
I am increasingly disillusioned by the EU. I used to be very europhile. I still consider myself to be a modern European, and I get on with Europeans of my age, whereever I go.
But I get annoyed at the current situation. Things like the German/France move to cut the rebate given to the UK (set-up because we were giving more than anyone else to the EU treasury).
Or the fact the new Spanish high speed rail link was paid for by partly British money, yet we have the worst railways in the EU. On a par with Eastern European countries.
Or how new roads in Europe were paid for by British tax payers, yet we still have to pay tolls when we use them.
I'd like to know what we get out of the EU, apart from another level of bureacracy.
The one thing it should be used for is defence. Yet we still rely on the US for most military operations - why is that?
-
Euro is the best thing that ever happen to europe.
Its the global economy crises that causes the problem. If we would still have our old money it would be quiete the same if not worse.
It takes time to get used to a new currency after u used the old 1 for half a decade.
It takes time but will will benfit from it within the next 2 years.
And i bet england denmark and sweden will have it sooner or later.
Not to forget the swizz. Surrounded by the euro.
they all will join the currency Union sooner or later its just a matter of time.
Latest if our econmy starts growing again the non € countrys will have big problems.
-
i dont care how you feel about the € now, as soon as my practice of calling it "the european dollar" catches on you will hate it
-
Can one of you guys explain why they dont want Turkey to be part of the European Union? I was under the impression that they had a decent stable economy.
-
turkey is permanently on the verge of becoming a muslim fundamentalist nation &/or doing to the kurds what they did to the armenians
-
Euro is great. I work quite a bit with companies in other yuropean countries, no longer need to loose any cash in currency exchange... direct debit!
Same goes if you're on holliday.
I think that after a year, mostly only the elderly here have trouble switching.
PS: yup , you're charged more .. follow the flow, up your prices too :D
-
Originally posted by Dowding (Work)
Or the fact the new Spanish high speed rail link was paid for by partly British money, yet we have the worst railways in the EU. On a par with Eastern European countries.
Or how new roads in Europe were paid for by British tax payers, yet we still have to pay tolls when we use them.
I'd like to know what we get out of the EU, apart from another level of bureacracy.
The one thing it should be used for is defence. Yet we still rely on the US for most military operations - why is that?
Euro is another step on integration. Integration is good, whatever you might look at it. As I told yesterday online, just ask americans if they would be happy with a Californian, NewYorker, Floridan, etc. Dollar, all exclusive from each state, with different quotatons each. Ask them about their thoughts wether this would be possitive or not, both in social-politic ways or economical ones.
btw, you definitely have not the worse rail system. We spend a whooping 10 to 12 hours to travel 600 Kms. (Madrid -> La Coruña). Speed is due to railway limitations.
If we want to grow up and be like the U.S.A. in terms of personal income, one paramount thing to do is creating the conditions to get to that. That is: Big, uniform and serious market.
IMHO, Euro will be good, as long as it's used only as a currency, and not as a political battleground. So far, I am happy with it, despite the price increase. I blame this last thing to the coupling ;)
Cheers,
-
Originally posted by Tilt
The UK ...can do what ever it wants...............
Yup. Now all we have to do is elect a PM who won't wreck the economy, the roads, cheap air fare setup, the fire service ... ;)
-
Because they kick human rights with feets.
But i am sure we will see it in the EU soon.
-
Originally posted by Dowding (Work)
I also would like to know how much control we would have over economic policy - interest rates and the like. I'm not too keen on the fact that we would have to move our national gold reserves to Brusselles.
I'm deeply suspicious of the corruption and waste that eminates from the upper echelons of the EU gravy train. Some aspects of it are distinctly undemocratic. I want reform.
Dowding, I understand that this labour government auctioned off the entire UK gold reserve for knock-down prices for a quick sale, leaving on 300 tons in the vault.
Coincidentally 300 tons of gold is the entry price to the Euro.
If you want reform, you must vote in the Euro elections. It's a bit of chicken/egg here - people won't trust the bureaucracy to run europe, but neither will they vote in reformers to the parliament.
I include myself amongst the broadly pro-europeans, but I am with you on the Euro commission, fat, bloated and not under the proper scrutiny. Fisheries, the CAP, Schengen, all these things need to be ironed out.
But better in than out IMO. Interdepency will have postive effects for mutual economic and miltary security in the future.
I would like to see a europe of devolved regions, so that the nation states take a bit of a back seat and local government can work directly with Europe instead of having to do everything through a politically coloured mediator.
-
Originally posted by Pepe
btw, you definitely have not the worse rail system. We spend a whooping 10 to 12 hours to travel 600 Kms. (Madrid -> La Coruña). Speed is due to railway limitations.
Last week it took me 5:30 hours to go to Torino (Italia) from Paris :p (in TGV) distance is similar but there is the Alp to cross :)
-
Krusher-
Can one of you guys explain why they dont want Turkey to be part of the European Union?
Certainly, Krusher. The most obvious reason is that Turkey is not in Europe. It's in Asia.
-
Some folks say that the different member states have economies which grow at different rates, and that a single currency cannot work, without a federal government, and a system of federal taxes and grants. But then again, the wealth and prospects (and prices) of London & the south east are vastly different from those of somewhere like Jarrow, County Durham, meaning that the UK has more than one economy, but with the same currency.
The difference is, someone from Jarrow can move to London to get a job, and people in London can be taxed to provide benifits to people in Jarrow.
That doesn't work well across borders. It's much harder to move to France or Germany for work because of the language barrier (people in Jarrow can just about speak English, so I've been told ;) )
Also, how would you feel knowing your taxes are going to fund unemployment benefit in Spain or Greece, when you have no say in Spanish or Greek elections?
-
Pepe - Comparing the US to Europe as a model for social integration is not very valid, IMO. For one, they all spoke the same language and had a more similar background/history. Compare that with France, Germany and the UK which have had several very bloody wars and have great cultural differences.
Also, the US federalisation didn't happen smoothly - they had a bloody great war! ;)
Tomato - compared to the Tories, Blair has been great for Britain. And I'm not a Blair supporter.
Bounder - I generally agree. I think we should be in it. But joining the Euro is a one shot deal, as far as I can see. Let's make sure, it's the right thing. European diplomacy is all about swings and roundabouts - and the electorate is the last to see what trade-offs have been made or what 'scratch my back...' deals have been made.
Beetle - I was born in 1978, decimalisation was in '74?
-
Originally posted by lazs2
...guess that's something
roadkill .................... mainly
-
Nashwan - good points, and I am unable to answer at present. But someone in Jarrow moving to London would be difficult because they might not be able to get on the housing ladder. But the currency is still the same.
After looking around at some of the toejambags on our streets, I don't mind if my tax £ go to helping poor Spanish or Greeks.
Dowding - decimalisation was on 15 Feb, 1971. There was some leeway, and not every organisation went decimal on the day. I distinctly remember the Midland Red Bus company going decimal on D-Day+6. compared to the Tories, Blair has been great for Britain.
I don't agree with that. Margaret Thatcher was the best PM in my lifetime. But I agree that the John Major parliament from 1992-1997 was an unmitigated disaster, what with Norman Lamont hiking up interest rates to make the pound stronger against the German mark - at a time of recession! :eek: :eek: Then the Sterling buyback which soaked up a quarter of our gold reserves before we FINALLY got bounced from the ERM. The Daily Telegraph (not your favourite newspaper!) called that day Black Wednesday. And The Times (or at least the Sunday Times) called it White Wednesday - LOL!!! The sterling we ended up buying back was suddenly worth only $1.53/£ instead of about $2/£. What a freaking fiasco, to which Norman Lamont callously said "Je ne regrette rien". The whole debacle cost Britain something like £6bn. I had always voted for the Tories, but not after that. And it's against my principles to vote Labour. A vote for any other party is a wasted vote.
As a footnote, I remember very clearly the first ever election in which I voted. It was the 1975 UK Referendum to stay in the EU. I voted a big fat YES!!! - andthe nationwide result went 2-1 in favour of staying in. I knew nothing about the EU at that time, but its opponents were the far left Tribune group of MPs - Benn, Foot, Shore, Castle. A NO vote would have been a carte blanche for those treacherous politicians. No thanks, I'll take the EU, warts and all.
-
Originally posted by Dowding (Work)
The one thing it should be used for is defence. Yet we still rely on the US for most military operations - why is that?
Has to be a rhetorical question. You already know the answer(s). ;)
-
Margaret Thatcher was the best PM in my lifetime.
Don't get me started. She was wonderful if you happened to be a stock-broker or even vaguely middle class or Southern. But if you lived in a Northern town that was supported by one industry alone (whether it be mining or steel), she did you no favours. The mines will killed and the British steel industry wiped out, and there was no plan to help the communities cope with the mass unemployment.
Where there were highly paid miners and steelworkers, you now have lots of drugs and social deprivation. Thinks have improved in the last few years - you've got lots of ex-miners collecting trolleys at your local tesco, or sitting behind telesales desks.
Thatcher taught Britain one thing: the 'I'm alright Jack' mentality. The twisted, dried up old squeak. :D
Toad - maybe one day it will become reality. It is something Blair wants.
-
I find it amusing that this "Euro" currency thing is being warmly discussed by my norhtern neighbours whom are refusing to embrace it :D
that is all for this mornings pre-coffee posting :D
-
Euro Euro Rah rah rah :D:D:D:D
Daniel
-
Dowding - I am not a stock broker. I was a computer programmer and in 1973, the year I left home to hit the (outskirts of) the big city, I was earning £1500 per year. I lived in a small bedsit in Croydon. This was at the time of the 1973/74 miners' strike, one of the years in which Xmas shopping had to be done by candlelight to save power, and the country was on a 3 day week. Ted Heath called a general election with the manifesto Who governs the country? He lost. Labour had the most votes but no overall majority. Heath tried to get Jeremy Thorpe (Liberal leader) to form a coalition, but Thorpe refused. Heath resigns. Wilson is PM, ran the Telegraph headline the following day. Labour had promised to end the 3 day week. The only way they could do that was to break the deadlock with the miners. Give in to the wage demands. Some miners got increases of £30/week – more than I was even earning at the time! At about the same time, I was given a performance review at work, and in recognition of all the (unpaid) extra hours I had put in, I was given a one-off payment of £25. It was a lesson and a half for me at the time, a naive 19 year old, in how the world works. Behind the miners stood an army of union workers, all demanding similar wage increases which they inevitably got. And the result? Just as Heath had predicted – rip-roaring inflation of around 25% per annum. The rate of inflation peaked in July 1975, the month in which inflation expressed as an annual figure equated to 30%.
Now despite the fact that British industry was antiquated and being run very inefficiently, the miners were quite resolute in their refusal to consider any productivity deals. The cost of energy soared, and the 1973 OPEC crisis had played a large part in keeping coal prices “competitive”. Throughout British industry, outdated, antiquated working practices could be seen in action. Labour always wanted to “create jobs”. So in a factory area in one of the nationalised industries which required 5 workers, the government might allow 7, and the Union would insist on 10. (Don’t get me started on Nationalisation!) With such trade union dominance, did we get better products and services? We did not. There was no competition, and no incentive to improve. Car workers were always going on strike. You had guys like Derek Robinson (Red Robbo) causing stoppages at the Leyland car plant in Oxford in demand of higher pay. Even the production line was sabotaged maliciously in their fight to get their own way. As for the cars that were produced? LOL!!!!!! You have got to be toejamting me. Just how bad they were came to light in 1990, when I was doing some work for Honda in Chiswick – London W4. Honda/Rover had a partnership, with Honda building engines for Rover cars which would be badged as the Honda Concerto. Therefore, they had to meet Honda pre-delivery inspection requirements, not those of Rover. Well, the cars produced by Rover were so bad that Honda sent back about 85% of them some weeks, to have PDI faults corrected. They got pissed off when some of those same cars came back with faults unrectified. So then they got tough. Any cars with faults on their second arrival at the Honda engine plant in Swindon were sent to the crusher! That tells you what the Japanese thought of British productivity. If anyone was wondering what happened to the British car industry after the war, think on this for a while. There are other examples I could quote, but let’s move on.
In 1979 after 7 years as a computer programmer on ICL mainframes, it became clear that the way ahead for me was on IBM mainframes. I had no IBM experience, so what did I do? Did I dig my heels in at work and demand higher pay for doing bugger all? Did I seek to hold back the wheels of inevitable progress? I did not. With some difficulty, I got myself a job in America where I would be able to cross train using my existing programming experience to gain new IBM experience. I stayed there about three years and came home in 1982. I then had a good skill set and was able to ply my trade as a freelance consultant earning £400/week, rising to £1000/week in 1987, and continued to earn high rates until very recently when this wonderful Labour government decided to manoeuvre the tax goalposts with a new package of measures known as IR35. IR35 means I have to pay Employee National Insurance (10% - soon to become 11%) AND Employer’s National Insurance (12% off the top) on almost every penny that comes through my company. Talk about disincentive. That’s on top of 40% income tax, and a substantial payment for Corporation Tax, there has also been spiralling petrol costs under Labour (55p per litre goes as tax), a halt to road development (we’re paying more, but receiving less) and almost unimaginable decline of the railways of which you are fully aware. I arrived at the decision last year that it was no longer worth my while to continue in that line of work, and have retired from it. Those people I know who are still around have had to do one of three things: Take a permanent job, pile their income into a pension plan (risky, if you ask me) or work overseas.
Labour just doesn’t get it. They put up taxes thinking they’re going to get more tax, and tax receipts go down. Did you know, Dowding, that prior to 1979, the top rate of income tax under labour was 83%? Did you also know that, under Labour, there was a 15% Investment Income Surcharge? What that meant was that if you had made good, and were receiving an income on money invested instead of actually working for it, you got clobbered for another 15% tax, bringing to 98% your total tax take. No wonder people were buggering off overseas, and for a few years I was one of them.
Well, Margaret Thatcher turned all that around. She saw the error of charging 83% income tax, and over a period of years our top rate of tax was reduced to 40%. People with high incomes no longer sought refuge overseas, and tax receipts went up – to Labour cries of taxes rise under the Tories. :rolleyes: As for industries, yeah a lot of them got run down and there were 3,000,000 unemployed when I got home from the States in 1982. We’d had riots in the streets etc. People were so full of their rights. “Jobs for life”. I was unaffected by the unemployment – why? Not because I was a stock broker. Nope. To paraphrase Norman Tebbitt, I got on my bike. Or in my case, I got on the plane – PA103 to New York, and embarked on a self improver course in the University of Life.
How did Margaret Thatcher deal with industry? My favourite example is the Jaguar Car company. In the late 1970s/early 1980s, a brand new Jaguar XJ6 cost something around £20,000. And they were crap! The workmanship was horrible, and the reliability was laughable. After only two years, the resale value would have plummeted to about £5000. I drove a Daimler Sovereign which a friend had bought for less than £750 – and it was only eight years old. He sold it to a kid who used it for banger racing. Well, Jaguar had been one of those Labour instigated nationalised industries – part of Leyland. When it was privatised, they whittled the work force down to less than half of what it had been, and yet they were able to make MORE CARS and BETTER cars – the Jag series 3. What does that tell you? I’ll tell you what it tells me. And that is that more than half of those Jag jobs prior to privatisation were not real jobs! Same thing applied to many other industries, in which overmanning had been used to make the employment figures look better. So under Thatcher, all these antiquated working practices, overmanning and strikes (the bane of the 1970s) became a thing of the past. No gain without pain. I’m sorry that things were so bad in the North during those years, but the real reason is because Labour had allowed the industrial stagnation to continue while the rest of the world was getting into new technology. Had those same Thatcherite policies been allowed to be applied beginning 15 years earlier, I believe the transition would not have been so severe because it could have been done over a longer period of time.
As for the miners strike of 1984/85, when they tried all their usual heavy handed tactics to get more pay, and it didn’t work, I had a good snicker – in light of how things had been round the other way 10-11 years earlier. Just to illustrate how bad British industrial relations had been under Labour, and in post war Britain generally, I did some work at the Unipart plant (part of the former Leyland) in 1985/1986. As 1986 rolled around, the company celebrated that 1985 had been the first strike free year since WW2 !!!!! :eek: Yep, vive M. Thatcher.
What do we have now? New Labour (Old Labour dressed up). Back to strikes. Back to tax and spend. Back to punitive taxation. Back, back, back. It’s so bad that I give serious consideration to retiring abroad – probably France or Spain. So you can stuff New Labour where the sun doesn’t shine.
Well Dowding, hope you enjoyed the history lesson! To pre-empt your brother, I would add that my views do not necessarily reflect those of other Britons. LOL!
-
Firstly, Swoop isn't my brother. Swoopy is my brother and I occasionally use his account, if I get chance.
Now onto the discussion. I'm glad you had a snicker at the miner's predicament. And their families. When both my parents were out of work (my father worked at a Coking plant and refused to cross the picket line - I'll come back to that) we had a great old time of it. I'm sure you'll snicker some more, you crass buffoon. Seven years old and spending time helping my dad collect coal from the sides of the rail tracks because it was rather cold; we had absolutely no money for fuel, you'll understand. I bet my parents found it hilarious when they nearly lost their home because they had, you guessed it, no money to pay the mortgage. :rolleyes: A lot of people did lose their homes.
Do you really think that every miner wanted to strike? If you do, you are a blinkered old fool. I remember the burnt out houses with 'scab' written on the doors. The intimidation was emmense. That sort of thing deterred my father from crossing the picket line, given he had two young sons. It was a merry old time. Heh, I still remember the rioting only 300 yards from my bedroom window. London coppers with no consideration for local communities. Ask any local policeman what he thinks of Thatcher's boys in black.
Now, the miner's demands were unacceptable - I fully accept that. But the destruction of whole communities, the mass unemployment and the lack of any support to re-train the community was the real killer. But then Rotherham, Barnsley and Sheffield are a good distance from Westminster... :rolleyes: Not many shrecking Tory voters, so who cares if crime soars and unemployment becomes the norm?
Some were lucky. My father was/is highly skilled and he found a job fairly quickly. Not so for the other families on the street.
As for the firemen. Blair hasn't given in - he's more or less crushed their stupid demands. Labour have learned it would seem.
And what are the Tories now? A bunch of freakish no-marks with vague policies, divided within, ridiculed without. Excuse me if I don't shed a tear for their plight.
-
Margaret Thatcher is the only brit PM hated on both side of the channel.
May she burn in hell.
I know that's short ,that's harsh ,rude etc ... ,but it's better what I will do myself to this scumbag.
-
Geez, Dowding - I only said I had a snicker - not a full blown belly laugh. That earlier strike was before you were born. I can tell you now that the reds of that epoch, led by Mick McGahey, did not give a flying diddly about what they were doing to the British economy, or to anyone else who was affected by their actions but was not part of their socio-economic group. So yes, I had a bit of a snicker in 1984. Boot was on t'other foot by then. :D I did not have a Union backing me in 1976/1977, a time when I started a new job in north London on a whopping £3500/annum. Inflation had slowed to a mere 18% in that year, BUT... the maximum pay rise I could expect was 5%. Therefore, I knew from the beginning that at the end of that year I would be at least 13% worse off - and things had been tight to begin with. That inflation, caused by the action of miners and their ilk, finished me off. I did not lose my home, but only because I had no home to lose. I lived in rented accommodation. No tax relief on that, unlike for newlyweds who could pool their resources and buy a home, get tax relief on the mortgage and each get higher tax allowances than what I was getting. Labour didn't like single people who were trying to make good. I had letters from the bank, threatening me with action under the 1968 Theft Act. My crime: "Obtaining pecuniary advantage by deception", by which they meant that I had cashed cheques supported by my cheque card (£50 limit) without having the resources to cover them. So don't tell me about roughing it. I went freelance because the rates were much higher, and overtime was paid. I wasn't ready, but it was a step I had to take to keep my creditors at bay. I rented a room in a house in Raynes Park, London SW20.
Would you believe it, Dowding, a friend who lives in my road has just paid a visit. Steve M, who I met in the US in 1997. Well he made good - better than I did - and he's the son of a miner who used to work at Upton colliery near Doncaster. He told me much the same as you about the action of the Met Police. He was 18 at the time, and if the police saw him on the street alone, they would intimidate him by calling out to him: Hey, diddlyer... I know what it was like, and of course not every miner wanted to strike. The point I'm trying to make is that I am not a blinkered old fool - less of the blinkered! I could not keep a friend like Steve if my attitudes to the problems of the former mining communities were as negative as you perceive.
The thing is, Dowding, that you are to young to have an understanding of what went before - the Union wreckers of the early 1970s. If you had lived through that as I did, you would have a different point of view.
The Tories are nothing now. And I do not vote for anyone any more.
One last thing: I did recently view the film, Brassed Off. A sad film, but not without humour. Yes, it was a bit of a tearjerker. I stopped snickering many years ago, Dowding.
-
Originally posted by beet1e
Krusher- Certainly, Krusher. The most obvious reason is that Turkey is not in Europe. It's in Asia.
they are part of Nato... dosnt that count for anything :)
-
Quite correct, Krusher - in fact Turkey is the only NATO member not in Europe or the Americas - I think. (?) But NATO is a military alliance, where as the European Union is more of an economic alliance. I should further comment on what I said earlier. Turkey does include an area known as eastern Thrace, which is in Europe. I think the boundaries have moved around a bit in the past 40 years, owing to various wars.
-
Heh, maybe I worded my reply a little too strongly. I apologise. Of course, you're right. I was born too late to truly understand the situation; however I still maintain that Thatcher (and the Tories after 1992 when the last of the mines were killed off) should have done more. Governments should be above malice.
-
Dowding - No apology needed. My life has probably turned out very differently from how yours will. I found myself a protégé of Thatcherite Britain. I had made all the moves that kept me in step with it. The greatest financial difficulties that I have had to deal with have all been bestowed upon me by Labour.
I agree that the rundown of old industries and the abolition of antiquated working practices in the 1980s was brutal, but that's the sort of thing that happens when problems are left to stagnate for too long, as they had under Labour. In the 15 years from 1964-1979, only about 3½ years were under Tory government - Ted Heath. The rest of that time, industry was in decline under a blinkered Labour government. I always remember when Jim Callaghan came back from the West Indies to face the 1979 Winter of Discontent (http://www.bbc.co.uk/politics97/background/pastelec/ge79.shtml), and when asked what he was going to do about the crisis said words to the effect of "I see no crisis". A few months later, his government was bounced out of office on a Vote of No Confidence - LOL! Talk about blinkered. :rolleyes:
-
Beetle and Dowding, here you see the roots of the fundamental difference in ..... those rates.
You guys are already kissing and making up.
Yanks would still be in the mutual "death threat" stage.
it was fun while it lasted. ;)
-
Originally posted by Toad
Beetle and Dowding, here you see the roots of the fundamental difference in ..... those rates.
You guys are already kissing and making up.
Yanks would still be in the mutual "death threat" stage.
it was fun while it lasted. ;)
Shurely you mean the "gun play" stage :D
-
Well, the only weapon getting much use here is the keyboard.......
-
Mr. Toad! Welcome back to my thread. :)
You guys are already kissing and making up.
Well no, not really. We never fell out to begin with. I think both Dowding and myself each struck a raw nerve of the other. But I understand how Dowding's life must have been, and vice-versa - it would seem. No need for guns. Dowding can take my last cold beer. No weapons. The pen is mightier than the sword, and maybe the keyboard is mightier than the gun. ;)
-
words are often more powerful than weapons especially if everyone is armed equally to begin with. It does however allways pay to use the proper tool for the job... it seems that they are not useing their keyboards effectively in limeyland against criminals...
"Alan Travis, home affairs editor
Friday February 23, 2001
The Guardian
England and Wales have one of the worst crime records in the industrialised world - even worse than America - according to the findings of an official survey published yesterday which compares the experience of victims across 17 countries.
The study, coordinated by the Dutch ministry of justice, shows England and Wales at the top of the world league with Australia as the countries where you are most likely to become a victim of crime. These countries face an annual rate of 58 crimes for every 100 inhabitants.
The findings, based on interviews with 35,000 people about their experience of crime across the 17 countries, were carried out last year. They are a blow to Labour's record and underline the challenge facing Tony Blair when he marks the launch of Labour's 10-year anti-crime plan next Monday by becoming the first serving prime minister to visit a prison.
The 2000 International Crime Victimisation survey shows that the falls in crime recorded since the mid-1990s in England and Wales are part of a general pattern of falling crime across the industrialised world but, unlike America, crime levels in England and Wales are still higher than they were at the end of the 1980s. When the survey was last carried out in 1996, England and Wales also topped the league table with 61 offences per 100 inhabitants.
The survey does show, however, that Britain has the best services when it comes to looking after the victims of crime, but it also shows we have a tougher approach to punishing criminals. Asked what should be done with a burglar convicted of stealing a colour television for a second time, more than 50% in England and Wales said he or she should be sent to prison for two years. Only 7% in Spain and 12% in France thought he or she should be jailed at all.
People were asked whether they had been victims of a range of 11 different offences in the previous 12 months, including violent and sexual assault, car crime, burglary and consumer fraud.
The survey also shows that Scotland, with 43 offences per 100 inhabitants, ranks joint fifth alongside America in the international crime league behind England, Australia, the Netherlands and Sweden. Northern Ireland has the second best crime record of the countries surveyed, with 24 offences per 100 inhabitants - the same rate as Switzerland and only just above Japan where the biggest crime problem is bicycle thefts. The detailed findings of the ICVS survey showthat England and Wales are top of the international league for car thefts with 2.6% of all car owners suffering the loss of their vehicle in the previous 12 months. In other sorts of car crime, England was second only to Poland.
Australia and then England and Wales had the highest burglary rates and rates for violent crimes such as robbery, assault and sexual assault "
the result of the backward thinking of the home office is the brutalizing of its helpless citizens... helpless to defend themselves against the strong and the vicious... a trajic example of "form over substance"... "let them eat cake" The lawless run england... In America... 3,000,000 such crimes are prevented by firearms each year... citizens have freedom and dignity one good thing about englands crime rate.... they have, obviously by necessity, learned to care for the traumatized, humiliated and injured victims...guess that's something
-
You emphasize my point, Beetle. Thanks.
Canada has more firearms than E/W/S. It probably has a nearly equal ratio of firearms/person with the US.
Yet has a lower homicide/100k rate than either E/W/S or the US.
You'll have to look deeper than the inanimate object red herring.
It's the difference in the people/culture I think. How else do you explain Canada's situation?
-
Lazs -
the result of the backward thinking of the home office is the brutalizing of its helpless citizens... helpless to defend themselves against the strong and the vicious... a trajic example of "form over substance"... "let them eat cake" The lawless run england...
I take it this was your own addendum to the quote, as I note the erroneous spelling of "tragic" and the Americanised spellings of words like "brutalising". Grammatical errors aside, this quote is complete bollocks. You must have an arse the size of funked's - I should know - I've had to kiss that a few times - LOL! But I was mildly impressed to see you quoting Marie Antoinette - I take it you do know who she was?
Mr. Toad! You emphasize my point, Beetle. Thanks.
What point? I didn't notice a point. ;) Please clarify!
I thought Nashwan had you on the ropes on Pongo's thread. :D
-
Again, I feel certain you'll find the already established new thread.
No reason to disturb Pongo's any farther. My reply to Nashwan is in the new thread. But I'm not suprised you fail to notice a point, nor am I surprised you think Nashwan has anyone on the ropes.
But I look forward to seeing your happy prose in the "new" thread.
Toodle-pip.