Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: 28sweep on December 06, 2002, 07:17:15 AM
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Has any noticed this?
American Helicopters are named after American Indians:
Chinook
Blackhawk
Apache
Huey ??not sure
Comanche
Exceptions:
Cobra
American Air Defense Systems are named after things in Roman/Greek Mythology:
Nike/Hercules
Chaparral
Ajax
Vulcan
Phalanx
Aegis (the shield of Zeus)
Exceptions:
Hawk
Patriot
American Tanks are named after Dead Generals:
Abrams
Patton
Sherman
Bradley
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Huey was the most famous chief of the lost, and little known, Californian tribe ... the Wherethefugarewe's.
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Chaparral ?
Mythology?
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Originally posted by MrBill
Huey was the most famous chief of the lost, and little known, Californian tribe ... the Wherethefugarewe's.
The UH1's real name is Iroquois, which I believe is an Indian tribe in New York.
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Hey Oedipus,
Your right Bush was a lousy president but not the worst...Reagan was by far the worst ever and we got a Ship named after him. The best president in the modern era is without a doubt- Bill Clinton.....I can't wait for the USS BILL CLINTON.........
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I am just trying to imagine the reaction of people who get orders to serve on that ship. :D :D :D
Will they prefer court-marshall? Desert to Canada? Accept commision and "accidentally" sink it at the first opportunity?
miko
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Is is true that USS Forrestall was named after that looney who jumped out of the window screaming "Russians are coming!!!"?
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I hear the Navy' first arsenal ship, aka cruise missle barge will be named the Clinton. :D
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Originally posted by 28sweep
Hey Oedipus,
Your right Bush was a lousy president but not the worst...Reagan was by far the worst ever and we got a Ship named after him. The best president in the modern era is without a doubt- Bill Clinton.....I can't wait for the USS BILL CLINTON.........
Isn't mr. Reagan still alive?
Another link between US and USSR that had krl Voroshilov, Molotov, Kalinin and Kaganovich?
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Ya but whats up with the Helicopter thing. Who decided to name all US helicopters after Indians. I guess its only fair...we only killed 100 million of them. Its good to be an Indian now....Casinos and helicopters......
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Still waiting to hear how Chaparral fits into the Mythology theme.
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It dosen't...I made a mistake...first one of my life......
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Oedipus: ...but yes the :Forrestfire", a capitol warship of the USN, was named after James V. Forrestal who was a prior Secretary of the Navy and Secretary of Defense. It's embarrassing imo.
What's so embarassing? Would it have been embarassing to you that the politician and patriot who served his country succumbed to cancer rather than a mental illness?
So a man commits suicide while confined to a mental hospital. Surely there was a reporter with a tape recorder running when he was jumping out of the 16 story window in 49th(?) to tell us of his last words.
Quite a lot of mentall ilnesses are inherited and show themselves at a mature age - 30-40 or more years - and the onset is quite abrupt in many cases. I have a friend who's father and granfather got affected at the age of 28 and it was quite a trial for him to wait and live past that age - especially fear of conceiving a male child to whom he could pass the condition.
I understand that in soviet culture - after communists exterminated or drove away the cultural elite and corrupted the rest - it was customary to denigrade previous politicians and be ashamed of sick, cripples and invalides, let alone mentally ill. So Boroda's comment is quite in line with his environment - besides Forrestal being one of the most prominent anti-communists - and thus crazy by definition in his book.
But the norms of the western society are a bit different. Obviously there is plenty of the same scum here as everywhere but the decent people have not been eradicated yet, so no surprise they could have named a ship afteh him.
miko
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Sure - naming for political purposes can be objectionable. Just take "USS Abraham Lincoln" - why don't we have "USS Adolph Hitler" to match it. Sure it's much better to have ships named after birds or flowers.
You may not agree with any one's political views, but being ashamed of the medical conditions...
BTW, about "shining on a staff" - the president kicked him out - Forrestol was quite an opinionated man. Still, the navy though it worthy to name a ship after him. Suicide and whatever. I have wuite a respect for the people of the Navy of that time - unlike the modern one.
miko
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Miko, I first heard this phrase, "the Russians are coming!" when I was a kid, and my Father told me about Forrestal as a historical anecdote. Later I have read several stories about this, even in the "historical" pro-Wesern books published in last 10 years.
Do you expect me to feel sorry for a defence secretary of an enemy country who signed plans of nuclear attacks against my nation?!
Made a quick search on the web - looks like it's the propaganda "hook" like Rip's "bread lines". But from what I have read in different sources - this anecdote reflects the state of anti-communist paranoia in the US in late-40s and early-50s.
Here are some links I found in Russian speaking Net:
http://www.rg.ru/bussines/econom/117.shtm
(an article from official government newspaper!!! they sound like Limonov's national bolsheviks)
Another one:
http://www.smi.ru/01/04/06/145428.html
Almost any "This day in history" site has something like this:
22.05.1949
Джеймс Винсент ФОРРЕСТОЛ (15.2.1892 - 1949), первый министр обороны США. Выбросился из окна с криком «Русские идут!».
The anecdote looks very popular and can be called a great propaganda work, even in case it's not true.
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Originally posted by miko2d
Sure - naming for political purposes can be objectionable. Just take "USS Abraham Lincoln" - why don't we have "USS Adolph Hitler" to match it. Sure it's much better to have ships named after birds or flowers.
Heinlein's "Starship Troopers", IIRC there were battleships Zhukov, Ghengis-Khan and Patton ;)
I really like Japanese way to name ships. It's poetic and looks so absurd and beautiful!
Russian tradition is maybe the most strange: naming several battleships "Retvizan" after a Swedish vessel captured during Northern war.
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Boroda you have seen Dr. Strangelove right?
By all accounts, George C. Scott's character is an accurate portrayal of Curtis Lemay.
Some of the military guys were really looney.
Fortunately we had Ike as a moderating influence, so the military didn't get everything they wanted.
And even though we all say bad things about Stalin and later Soviet leaders, they never were stupid enough to send that huge Red Army buildup across the Fulda Gap, even though the balance of forces in Europe was strongly in their favor.
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Boroda: Do you expect me to feel sorry for a defence secretary of an enemy country who signed plans of nuclear attacks against my nation?!
Not at all. Hate and fear him all you wish. I am not sure if he really hated Russia and russians rather than it's communist oppressors but it's probably all teh same to you. But you expressed surprise that the ship in US was named for him - because of his mentall ilness, not his being an enemy of Siviet Union like most of the rest of his country.
this anecdote reflects the state of anti-communist paranoia in the US in late-40s and early-50s.
Oh, yes - that was all paranoia. The poles in 39 and balts and finns and romanians in 40 and hungarians in 58 and czechs in 68 and afghans in 78 - they were all paranoid too and imagined things. Maybe he was so paranoid that he though soviets would get to placing missles in Cuba and suitcase nukes in New York? Oh, wait...
And do not start a discussions on "you are bad too"... I can name plenty of examples where US invaded and subjugated independent countries in modern history. America leaves much to be desired when it comes to respect for liberty. That's not the issue.
The issue is denigrading anyone for his medical condition.
The guy was a secretary of defence before he got sick. Different people liked kim or disliked him. He was allegedely not good enough even for his own president - though many sources claim he retired for health reasons, who knows - but certainly good enough for the Navy and the next president who approved the name of the ship - Eisenchower, no less.
A bronze bust of Forrestal at the mall entrance to the pentagon is inscribed as follows:
"This memorial to James Forrestal, as a spontaneous tribute to his lasting accomplishments in providing for national security and his selfless devotion to duty, was erected by thousands of his friends and co-workers of all rank and stations."
On October 1, 1955 Secretary of the Navy, C. S. Thomas, at USS FORRESTAL's commissioning ceremony, perhaps best summarized Secretary Forrestal's myriad achievements:
"I welcome the opportunity of paying a personal tribute to my friend, and former superior, the late and genuinely lamented James Forrestal. This nation has never had a more devoted servant, nor one with greater vision than James Forrestal. But for his untiring efforts, brilliance and devotion, our nation would not be enjoying the tenuous peace we have today. It is therefore most fitting and proper that this first new super carrier, representing all the best efforts of industry, science, and the Navy, should carry his name."
Heinlein's "Starship Troopers", IIRC there were battleships Zhukov, Ghengis-Khan and Patton
Which in no way indicates his sympathy for Soviet Union - he was one of the most prominent anti-communists among US literary circles.
miko
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Actually Funked up, Curtis LeMay was more like the Gray Sterling charactor :)
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Originally posted by Dune
The UH1's real name is Iroquois, which I believe is an Indian tribe in New York.
new york is a state on Iroquois territory
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Originally posted by 28sweep
Ya but whats up with the Helicopter thing. Who decided to name all US helicopters after Indians. I guess its only fair...we only killed 100 million of them. Its good to be an Indian now....Casinos and helicopters......
I call.
Let's see some support for that "100 million" statement.
I think it's the purest manure.
Start your accounting with 1776 if you want to use "we" as the "US".
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Dude,
Maybe it was 80 million or even 70 million but last I checked- the estimates are very high....you know smallpox was very nasty and it was no mistake that it spread so fast. Jeffrey Amherst-the guy who Amherst college was named after- intentionally spread the disease via contaminated blankets. He was a pioneer really-the first to use germ warfare. The darkest moment in my country's history.....among the darkest in human history actually-ranking with the holocaust. But hey-casinos and helicopters makes up for it right...........
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Originally posted by 10Bears
Actually Funked up, Curtis LeMay was more like the Gray Sterling charactor :)
Sterling Hayden I think.
I saw a documentary recently where they found his character to be more like another SAC general.
There are some Lemay quotes (that I will try to post here) which sound eerily similar to Scott's character (Buck Turgidson).
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How do you think europeans acquired resistance to smallpox, plaque and multitude of other infectious deseases? By having significant chunks, often majority of the population die out many times over so that the carriers of resistance-imparting genes remained.
Same with alcohol tolerance, fat and sugar tolerance and other things.
Those indians had no chance to avoid epidemic sooner or later, not that I would condone the intentional contamination. People did not know about germs and quarantines then - most though it was God's way of preferring the right ones.
About 70 million - you may want to check on a population density of primitive societies which do not even practice agriculture. It was so small that it could not even provide grounds for develop natural germs that could cause a survivable desease and resistance to it. Not the smallpox but any other that would be dangerous to europeans.
miko
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Maybe there was a 'Patton' in the *movie* Starship Troopers.
In the book, all of the assault ships were named after infantrymen who won the Medal of Honor.
Do a Medal of Honor search on 'Young, Rodger' from Ohio, USA in WW2.
Mike/wulfie
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Originally posted by 28sweep
Its good to be an Indian now....Casinos and helicopters......
you on drugs!!!?!??!?!?!
how about EXTREME poverty
WORST health care in the US
LOWEST literacy rate
oh well my 2ў
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I remember when they released some tapes from the Cuban misile crisis.. they're talking and you can hear LeMay in the background "I gotta tell ya Mr. President... I say we hit em' an' hit em' HARD!!... Our casulities?... Bah humbug... 10 - 20 million tops"
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Originally posted by 28sweep
Dude,
Maybe it was 80 million or even 70 million but last I checked- the estimates are very high....
Are you still in school? Have you researched this number or just pulled it out of your..... imagination?
Are you going to stand by your claim or just admit you have absolutely no idea how many Native Americans were even in what is now the US when Columbus arrived in the New World?
And we can discuss other aspects of your sweeping generaliziations after you figure this part out, just for more fun.
Dude.
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indians do not have to stay on reservations and take govt handouts , they can get jobs like the rest of us, i know, i worked with a lakota souix, he had a house , car, wife, kids, morgage, just like a white man ,and after work we would stop for a beer (beers) he was my friend and a ok guy.
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Originally posted by 28sweep
Jeffrey Amherst-the guy who Amherst college was named after- intentionally spread the disease via contaminated blankets. The darkest moment in my country's history.....among the darkest in human history actually-ranking with the holocaust. But hey-casinos and helicopters makes up for it right...........
Also, help me understand something here.
Are you a citizen of the same country that Jeffrey Amherst served?
Thanks in advance.