Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: midnight Target on December 06, 2002, 11:29:19 AM
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I realize that this is hardly as important as "how to cook a steak", but....
Has Religion (any Religion, not just Christianity) helped or hindered mankind?
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Religion has helped, mankind has hindered.
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Didn't pretty much all organized societies (with law and order as we know them) start out with a set of laws which allegedly had a divine origin? I don't think much of our societal and technological progress would have occured without this foundation.
Now one might argue whether all of this progress is actually progress. But assuming that the "state change" from wandering savages to the current situation is a positive one, the answer to your question has to be "yes".
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Religon forces people to behave or act in ways they normally would not. For better or for worse, good and extreme. Its a moral yardstick.
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Originally posted by Oedipus
Hindered!
Reference the dark ages, the Crusades, flat earth "law" and the Inquisition.
Just to name a few major setbacks for mankind due to religion.
Mankind did that, in the name of religion.
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Originally posted by Apache
Religion has helped, mankind has hindered.
If there is no mankind, there is no religion.
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Religion definitely helped mankind to achieve the current level of development - specifically christian religion and western civilisation.
There is no doubt about that among atheist scientists who deal with the society or economics. I am hesitant to plug F. Hayek everywhere, but he put it the best from what I've seen.
The customs and traditions of various people underwent evolution and selection and most suitable ones enabled their populations to prosper, multiply, spread and advance.
The cultural roots of our western civilisation - based on value of the individual, family, private property, liberty and others - originated with ancient greeks but were inherited and promoted by christian church.
It does not matter that the church had different reasons - quite irrational for an atheist - for adhering to those principles - and that there were many deviations that got weeded out along with affected populations in accordance with evolutionary principles.
The drive for rationality started by socialists ~150 years ago concentrated on destroying the influence of religion without realising what importance it had for supporting the customs that serve as a foundation of our society - and bothering to find working substitutes for such influence.
miko
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
If there is no mankind, there is no religion.
...wouldn't be needed.
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The Western civilization that the Greeks (Actually the Ionians) started was almost totally squashed by religion.
I think that the burning of the Library at Alexandria may be the greatest atrocity religion has ever perpetrated on mankind. Think where we might be if the dark ages never happened.
I have read estimates that up to 1500 years of advancement was retarded by the religious dogma that reduced the knowledge of the Library to ashes.
1500 may be a stretch, but what if it was only 500 years, 100 years?
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Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and Shintoists have all committed violence in the name of their religions...even though those religions forbid them from doing so. This is not the fault of those religions but of human nature. For every act of evil perpetrated in the name of religion there are dozens of others performed for the benefit of mankind.
It would be hard to overestimate how much American society has benefitted from the efforts of the Quakers.
For those of you who state that few of the Christians that you have known live by Christian principles I would say that...you're not hanging with the same crowd that I am. You will not find many true Christians in bars or nightclubs or the KKK. Search through small-town America and you will find plenty of them.
Regards, Shuckins
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What Apache (that post-potato) said......Mankind (and womankind, and also-womankind-in-comfortable-shoes) is responsible.
Cobra
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Religion has hindered mankind imo. Mankind created it and has abused it's purpose.
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midnight Target: The Western civilization that the Greeks (Actually the Ionians) started was almost totally squashed by religion.
Yes. Almost. Many other civilisation were. It's a selective process. The one variety that promotes it's population, gains.
Think where we might be if the dark ages never happened. ...I have read estimates that up to 1500 years of advancement was retarded...
Oh, yeah - the society really needed knowlege lost in Alexandria to realise that all men are equal and property rights are essential in order to start developing an egalitarian society, free market and other goodies that come with it. That's what was in those books - and every peasant could check them out in their local branch...
Once there were conditions for some inventions, it came right up - in the Western civilisation, based on christian values.
What do you think a secular society would have been? Most likely socialist dictatorship like the modern ones with no knowlege discovery whatsoever.
Here I was talking about purely social foundations for our society that one or another branches of christianity helped to nurture.
Even in accidental historical process it was quite helpfull. The library would have been destroyed no matter what by that or other conqueror with or without a whichever religious pretext. But it was christians who preserved whatever greek inheritance we saved, who developed massive book publishing and eventually printing, etc.
miko
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religon has help to separate fools from capital
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Religion, as Jesus himself observed, has hindered mankind by exalting form (i.e., ceremony, perfunctory observances, slavish obedience to manmade rules) over substance (i.e., a relationship with God).
- JNOV
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The Lord of the Dance
By the Vandals
A needy world greets the new messiah.
Taking applications for disciples.
To touch the hem of his leather trousers,
unleashes the fury of his healing powers.
His feet we’re blistered for you sins, and painful melvins in the high school gym.
From those who doubted “He” was “Him”.
The savior of our souls- Lord Michael.
CHORUS:
I’m exploding in my pants,
from the spirit of the Lord of Dance. The whirling dervish Son of Man,
repent while you still can.
His wonders work in mysterious ways.
Arms are still above his furious legs.
A simple shuffle and a full plié,
he’s making Zima out of Perrier.
He’s got one commandment for his scribes to tell-
“Ignite your passion” or burn in hell.
Hallelujah we are in his debt,
baptized from his holy sweat.
CHORUS:
The Lord of Lords declares a holy war
on the on the onlookers and the
wallflowers.
CHORUS:
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Miko - But it was christians who preserved whatever greek inheritance we saved, who developed massive book publishing and eventually printing, etc.
Nope!
It was the Arabs that saved whatever was saved from the Ionians. If it werent for Al- Gabar, Gerber and others we would have never heard of the great Greek Philosophers.
Huge strides were made in science that were lost with the Library. A heliocentric solar system for example, which waited 1100 years to be "discovered" by Copurnicus.
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Apache... "nobody knows about the Spanish inquisition!" (or it's benefits) :)
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Originally posted by Rude
Religion has hindered mankind imo. Mankind created it and has abused it's purpose.
Agreed...couldn't agree more in fact.
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Originally posted by Saintaw
Apache... "nobody knows about the Spanish inquisition!" (or it's benefits) :)
Place this man in the "COMFY CHAIR" and strike him with "SOFT COMFY PILLOWS":D
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midnight Target: It was the Arabs that saved whatever was saved from the Ionians. If it werent for Al- Gabar, Gerber and others we would have never heard of the great Greek Philosophers.
Right - untill one of them said "if the books contradict Koran, they are evil and if they confirm Koran, they are redundant, burn them all..." You have a very simplistic view of christianity or arab culture as being uniform and static.
The greek philosophers' works passed through quite a lot of hands before it got to us.
Huge strides were made in science that were lost with the Library. A heliocentric solar system for example, which waited 1100 years to be "discovered" by Copurnicus.
Oh, yea - as if there was any urgent need for it. As soon as trade developed and ships appeared that required more precise navigation, the heliocentric system was promptly rediscovered as well as other usefull things. And it was not Copernicus who offered it to western civilisation - but scientists few decades later. Guess there was not much urgency after all.
Besides, why do you think I ever ment greek philosopher's ramblings that contributed to our civilisation? If anything, they greatly delayed and diverted search for knowlege of christian world because they got accepted as true. Discovery of the way around Africa was delayed by centuries because of Aristotel's maps. Same with his otehr ideas.
They were interesting but false - their ideas of society, geography etc.
Those guys understood the cause of their civilisation greatness - individualism, democracy, property, competition, profit, free trade, development even less that modern socialists do. They hated and denigraded all of those things.
They promoted self-dependence and collectivism and governmental control and statism even though Greece rose on it's trade and has it's large population only becasue of shipments of bread from Egypt and materials from as far away as british isles.
In fact the periods of development of ancient greeks were several times brough to ruin when state achieved enough power and started interfering with economy and free markets.
Of course it's the politicians and their close circles that leave their version of history rather than traders and shippers and craftsmen.
The laws that reflect existing morals and traditions are attributed to rulers ()"lawgivers") who's only role was ordering those to be inscribed in madium that could survive to be discovered.
Modern historians often fall for that and declare strong state to be paramount of the civilisation development where it was the cause of it's demise.
Civilisations experienced great busts in development once state developed just strong enough - or deteriorated to be weak enough to only ensure relative safety of property and trade and leave people alone. As soon as the states strengthened further, they started regulating production and distribution and securing the sources and markets and stifled the only engine of discovery and development ever to exist - competition.
It's the greek's society's basic morals, values and traditions that we inherited and developed, not obsolete or flase knowlege or even curious but unusable insights.
miko
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I'll simplify it for the goofballs:
Code of Laws is the basis of society as we know it.
The first such codes to achieve widespread adherence were believed by their followers to have divine origin.
The wrath of god(s) insured compliance.
To argue that religion has hindered mankind is to argue that society has hindered mankind.
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helped- past tense.
diapers help babies when they are little too - doesn't mean we shouldn't learn to stop crapping our pants someday.
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When did Buddhists commit violence in the name of their religion exactly?
Originally posted by H. Godwineson
Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and Shintoists have all committed violence in the name of their religions...even though those religions forbid them from doing so. This is not the fault of those religions but of human nature. For every act of evil perpetrated in the name of religion there are dozens of others performed for the benefit of mankind.
Regards, Shuckins
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Evil Buddhists!!!
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Originally posted by LoneStarBuckeye
Religion, as Jesus himself observed, has hindered mankind by exalting form (i.e., ceremony, perfunctory observances, slavish obedience to manmade rules) over substance (i.e., a relationship with God).
that should be printed on the pope's elaborate hat
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Originally posted by Vulcan
When did Buddhists commit violence in the name of their religion exactly?
At LAX, Sept 1998.
-Sik
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Originally posted by whgates3
that should be printed on the pope's elaborate hat
LOL like one of those cigarette warning labels!
"WARNING: Jesus Christ has determined that..."
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Originally posted by Vulcan
When did Buddhists commit violence in the name of their religion exactly?
it's pretty common actually which is surprising - there was a dispute over a temple in korea not long ago- wish i knew the facts better but it looked pretty bloody from what i saw on tv.
many people fail their religions- it's especially sad when a buddhist does i think since there is no concept of retribution in their philosophy like islam and christianity