Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: DeeZCamp on April 30, 2001, 04:07:00 PM
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Hey all. =) I Always hear of this "FLIGHT MODEL" topic that just bothers me. =( It seems as IF the Aircraft here in Aces are Programmed to REACT a certain way. I find this very sad. IT seems as If the aircraft have "DATA TABLES" that Aces uses to determine the Flight characteristics of each plane. THIS SEVERELY limits the realism that is represented for the aircraft here. I have Asked many people If they have heard of a PROGRAM called "X-PLane" and many have, as well as many not. This X-plane Program is Not a COMBAT simulation, but rather a TRUE REPLICATION of Physicial flight parameters applicable to any aircraft that can be created for use within the X-plane program.
The program uses what is called "Blade element Theory" and is an enginneering process of wich the plane (actual flight model ) and all of its existing Airfoil shapes are CACULATED in REAL time; the Effects of Airpressure/temp/ everything that encompasses all aspects of flight. Nasa as well as other Governmental agencies have used this program for actual preflight testing to determine the effects of how the aircraft WILL perform.
Now after all this babbling of mine, My point is That IF Aces were to USE a REAL TIME METHOD of CALCULATING physical properties applicable to each individual aircraft, then THERE should BE no NEED to argue about FLIGHT MODELS..
I really love the Feel Aces high has as far as the Graphical level of detail, the chat ability and the whole over all ACM/team work experience. I think its the BEST GAME out right now.. for this type so dont think that im trying to bring it down in anyway =)
If those of you who do not belive me in my explanation here, I suggest that you download a free evaluation of the X-plane program,(www.x-plane.com) then goto the x-plane registry site (www.x-plane.org) and download some WWII aircraft that other enginneers/users have created and explore realtime calculation of aircraft. Now dont burn me on this.. im not trying to SELL anything. im just trying to show all those who talk about a "PORKED" flight model that "pre determined flight characteristics" are just limited and maybe HTC could somehow implement if not already doing so to some extent Real Time calculations for FLIGHT performance.
Oh one more thing for those hwo may be wondering about all this realtime calcualtion, and if it needs a lot of CPU horse power to run.. IT DOESNT.. on average a person with a PII450 can even achive 35 FPS. Im on PIII800EB/512 megs ram/ATI radeon 64 meg and 75 FPS in X-plane/Aces high.
OKay sorry for such a long post but yeah. <S>!all
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What happened Deez? Everybody start ignoring your X-plane ads on channel one in the Main Arena?
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Sorry, no interset at all in X.
The fact that there is more to AH than FMs, like incorporating Damage modeling,Ballistics and the ability to get 200 guys in the same place at the same time.
They take FM data from what availible to them.
Dog out....
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heya again =) wardog my point is that they do not need DAta to determine the Predetermined Flight Envelope for the aircarft if The computer is calculating in real time "ON-THE-FLY" the actual aircraft flight physics. As far as the ability to get on someones 6 hehe ;-) This is where the Absence of Predetermined modeling would really come into play due to A more accurate representation of aircraft physics energy state/wieght/thrust to wieght/temp etc.. variables =)
As far as the other aspects in aces high i think its done beautifully. THe only thing that i would complain about, and its pretty much UNfixable right now is Net Lag (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif) <S>
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DeeZCamp, how well does Blade element theory repoduce motor output or the weight of the airplane?
In other words your just swaping one set of data for another.
HiTech
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besides... how many of us REALLY (be honest now) would know if the F6F or Tempest or Zero or any airplane for that matter are modelled correctly or not. We have no comparison. Unless there's a WWII Test Pilot amongst us how many warbirds has anyone in this arena flown in real life. This is a SIMULATION.
I realize there are some better modeling tools out there but I think the incremental gain in realism would barely be noticeable and our only frame of reference is the previous modeling.
HiTech, I think you and your team are doing a great job. Keep up the good work.
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"...The program uses what is called "Blade element Theory" and is an enginneering process of wich the plane (actual flight model ) and all of its existing Airfoil shapes are CACULATED ..."
exactly...it's based on airfoil shapes which have specific force properties. but those properties are unique to airfoils. what do you do about the fuselage? as long as things like roll rate and climb speed are know as a function of speed and air density and a few other things it shouldn't make a difference. in fact it makes no difference and might even be better. i dont know how many pieces htc makes each plane but the complexity and accuracy of the model is only limited by how many pieces you want to write functions for.
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Well first off, I have to point out that this is the exactly the kind of thing about the Aces High community that i think needs some improving. It seems that anytime anyone points out something that could possibly be improved in Aces there is a big bandwagon of people that come out to slam that person. Deezcamp's post was not a flame in any way. It was just a well thought out post on how Deezcamp feels that Aces high could be improved.
The fact is Aces is a constantly evolving and improving product, and that is one of the reasons I like it. But I feel that we the Aces High customers have every right to make well thought out (not just flight model _____ is porked) suggestions to Hitech and and have them considered without being ridiculed. Like Deezcamp says Aces High is an excellent game as a whole , but there are other games out there they may do certain things a little better. No one doubts Hitech's expertise in this field, he has been doing airplane simulations for years, but I think if Hitech could occasionally put his ego aside he may just get some good suggestions from the community.
As far as what Deezcamp knows about flight physics, I respect his opinion highly. Spitlead says "Who has actually flown all these planes?" Well, Deez hasn't flown all of them. But he is a real pilot in training and has flown many planes including a fully aerobatic WW2 trainer (Texan I believe.) He also just came out of there air force where he worked with the Stealth Bomber. He did a lot of time in the Air Force Multi-Million dollar flight simulator. So if he says the B2 bomber in X-plane handles like the one in the Airforce Simulator, I take that to say something about the physics of X-plane.
I blew Deez off for a long time when he was preaching x-plane to me. But one day I finally downloaded and gave it a try. And you know what, he was right. The physics just feel right on . Its like Grand Prix Legends was touted as having very realistic physics. I have never driven a 60's Indy car, but I have driven a car enough to know it just "feels" right. I don't think anyone on this board can say anything about deez or x-plane until they actually try it.
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Hmm.. I have X-Plane, and the Cessna I fly there flies little like the one in real life.
Now I have never flown a plane modelled in Aces High, so I dont know wich engine is best.
hitech, can you please model a Cessna that we can fly offline just for the sake of comparison? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Gunslayer:
I don't think anyone on this board can say anything about deez or x-plane until they actually try it.
that's why i am speaking up - i actually paid for mine and it has set in a box collecting dust for a year - i loaned it to a friend and was embarassed at the response - it is a regretful purchase unless you like flying over 'quake dark' terrain in ugly planes with cartoon panels.
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Gun, ya missin my point here..
If it cant get 200 people in it, doesnt have ballistics modeled and a damage model i have no interest in trying it.
Ive never owned a boxed sim, ive never tryed anything other than online sims. Ive been flying online since 1989 AW-DOS and to this day have never flown anything that didnt allow for 200 people in an area.
You might want to reread my post, i didnt flame Deez at all. Only stated that i had no interest in X. now anything else that doest have Live opponents.
Dog out.......
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or a t6 texan.
that would be fun to have (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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To MrFish
X-plane, like aces high is a constantly evolving sim. If you haven't played it in a long time, you still cant pipe in here. Unless you want to compare X-plane to a pre-release version of aces high.
To Wardog, Not everyone is flaming deez, but the general attitude of this post was not intelligent consideration, but "lets ridicule deez for suggesting somthing different." Thats not to say that you were doing that. Also, the damage modeling etc is a big part of aces high and one of the things that makes it good. But the flight model has nothing to do with the network code. All of aces's flight models are calculated on our own computers. Only positional information and damage are sent over the net. Changing the flight model does not affect that or how many poeple can play online (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I used to play Flight Unlimited 1 & 2. They used an airflow model like X-Plane (no X-Plane is not unique or breaking new ground!).
Interestly the P-51 in AH and FU2 feel similar.
The problem with modeling realtime is that it cannot be as complex as tables. IE, tables can have extremely complex calculations and adjustments fed into them, time of calculation doesn't matter. Whereas a realtime model has limitations, you cannot feed as complex models into it without requiring a lot of cpu.
At lets be realistic, at the end of the day heavy duty modelling of airflow is done on some big gear. Sure NASA might have played with X-Plane, but when it comes to the nitty gritty they feed it to the big beasts to crunch the numbers - not some piddly little PC with a bugged Intel processor.
Does X-Plane, for example, model transonic drag?
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Deez,
First this is not a personal attack (just a disclaimer after the posts above).
Blade element theory is a process used to calculate the airflow around propellers. It is not a process that can be used to calculate whole aircraft flight parameters. If a sim (or anyone else) claims to use this process to model an entire aircraft then they don't have a clue what they are talking about.
Also, using data tables will give you a similar result to real time calculation of aerodynamics. Why? Because both methods use the same basic principles to calculate the parameters involved. Also, the simplifications needed to make a complex 3 dimensional aerodynamic model using finite element theory actually processable on a home computer are so numerous that the results are likely to be less realistic than a table based model anyway.
The problem also comes in when you consider that an aerodynamic model doesn't actually give you the aircraft's behaviour anyway. The aerodynamic model outputs forces (these same forces are what are included in a table based model for given altitudes, airspeed etc) which are then used in mechanics of flight equations to calculate the behaviour of the aircraft.
Food for thought.
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Well Mako, I hate to break this too ya but.... computers are pretty fast these days. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Basically , x-plane breaks the plane down into its component surfaces, it doesn't simulate every nook and cranny. But it comes quite close. Its kinda like a Jpeg is a compressed picture image. A modern computer can easily handle this info. I do have one question though, if the aces flight model is spot on, explane the Niki (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
P.S. you decided to get technical so here is a rip from the X-plane website. I don't understand all this, but this is how x-plane's FM works.
How it Works:
X-Plane reads in the geometric shape of any aircraft and then figures out how that aircraft will fly. It does this by an engineering process called "blade element theory", which involves breaking the aircraft down into many small elements and then finding the forces on each little element many times per second. These forces are then converted into accelerations which are then integrated to velocities and positions... of course, all of this technical theory is completely transparent to you... you just fly! It's fun!
X-Plane goes through the following steps to propagate the flight:
1: Element Break-Down
Done only once during initialization, X-Plane breaks the wing(s), horizontal stabilizer, vertical stabilizer(s), and propeller(s) (if equipped) down into a finite number of elements. The number of elements is decided by the user in Plane-Maker. Eight elements is the maximum, and studies have shown that this provides roll rates and accelerations that are very close to the values that would be found with a much larger number of elements.
2: Velocity Determination
This is done twice per cycle. The aircraft linear and angular velocities, along with the longitudinal, lateral, and vertical arms of each element are considered to find the velocity vector of each element. Downwash, propwash, and induced angle of attack from lift-augmentation devices are all considered when finding the velocity vector of each element.
Propwash is found by looking at the area of each propeller disk, and the thrust of each propeller. Using local air density, X-Plane determines the propwash required for momentum to be conserved.
Downwash is found by looking at the aspect ratio, taper ratio, and sweep of the wing, and the horizontal and vertical distance of the "washed surface" (normally the horizontal stabilizer) from the "washing surface" (normally the wing), and then going to an empirical look-up table to get the degrees of downwash generated per coefficient of lift.
3: Coefficient Determination
The airfoil data entered in Part-Maker is 2-dimensional, so X-Plane applies finite wing lift-slope reduction, finite-wing CLmax reduction, finite-wing induced drag, and finite-wing moment reduction appropriate to the aspect ratio, taper ratio, and sweep of the wing, horizontal stabilizer, vertical stabilizer, or propeller blade in question. Compressible flow effects are considered using Prandtl-Glauert, but transonic effects are not simulated other than an empirical mach-divergent drag increase. In supersonic flight, the airfoil is considered to be a diamond shape with the appropriate thickness ratio... pressures behind the shock waves are found on each of the plates in the diamond-shaped airfoil and summed to give the total pressures on the foil element.
4: Force Build-Up
Using the coefficients just determined in step 3, areas determined during step 1, and dynamic pressures (determined separately for each element based on aircraft speed, altitude, temperature, propwash and wing sweep), the forces are found and summed for the entire aircraft. Forces are then divided by the aircraft mass for linear accelerations, and moments of inertia for angular accelerations.
5: Get Back to Work
Go back to step 2 and do the whole thing over again at least 15 times per second. Aren't computers great?
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Deez you have been sold a bill of goods. AH (and WB and any other modern flight sim) does most of that stuff already.
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Does X-plane have a cup holder like my Pony does? My Pony has a 8-track tape player too... it was a NACA experiment in 1945....The "Redtails" were groovin' on those long bomber flights... :-P
If the flight models are calculated "close", and are the same for everyone flying in the sim....have fun!
Thorns
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Deez, I said it in the MA, and I'll say it here:
WE HEARD YOU THE FIRST TIME
It's very rude of you to keep pushing this down our throats.
If you continue being rude, I'll start being so too.
:/
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Von Santa
Staffelkapitän 9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://stsantas.tripod.com/stsanta.jpg)
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Originally posted by Gunslayer:
Well Mako, I hate to break this too ya but.... computers are pretty fast these days. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Basically , x-plane breaks the plane down into its component surfaces, it doesn't simulate every nook and cranny. But it comes quite close. Its kinda like a Jpeg is a compressed picture image. A modern computer can easily handle this info. I do have one question though, if the aces flight model is spot on, explane the Niki (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
hehe this is good
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"That was some of the best flying I've seen yet, right up until the point where you got killed."
[This message has been edited by Hammer Head (edited 04-30-2001).]
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Gun,
Thanks for your reply and for posting the X-plane stuff. Basically the write up from X-plane agrees with my reply. They say there that they make assumptions about the aircraft shape in order to calculate the behaviour of the air around the various surfaces. This is the sort of stuff I did while studying aerodynamics and mechanics of flight. It works well for approximations, but the number of panels needed to give a true result is virtually infinite. Thus the processing time required to model this becomes infinite as well. The problem with finite element analysis is that a good model is dependent on a large number of elements and the processing time goes up exponentially with the number of elements.
Basically it is impossible to represent an aircraft completely faultlessly, every method has it's limitations.
Btw, every computer model is only as good as the information fed into it. That's why UFO's can still exist (eg. Niki according to some sources)
P.S. notice what X-plane said "...then going to an empirical look-up table to get the degrees of downwash generated per coefficient of lift" Even X-plane uses tabulated data to produce it's flight model. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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To start off, I would like to thank those who have not only agreed with what I have suggested, but also thank those Who have not been quick to try and flame me away even though some having disagreements to what I have posted.
I would like to thank gunslayer for posting the Technical (in laymans terms) process of blade element theory application from the X-plane website. Most of all the Questions that may arise are actually answered within the excerpts from the x-plane page/gunslayers post. The questions that cannot be answered from this post(try x-plane's wwII aircraft)
At no point am I/or was I trying to give the Impression that one should GO and look to X-plane for ITS combat role. Simply because it has NONE.. (wardog (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif) ) but would highly encourage those to see the difference in flight characteristics and to see what one is able to accomplish with an Aircraft that is from the Current Aces High plane set.
As Blue Mako posted earlier the propellers are the only thing that would be calcualted for blade element theory please read gunslayers post (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
St santa im sorry that this disturbs you, im not trying to change the world, or hurt anything as far as aces high goes, im actually trying to improve upon its already great simulated aircraft in such a way that could eliminate predetermined "flight models". I may not have all the Specific Knowledge as far as being a programmer and what is/isnt able to be updated within the Aces High Code, but then again this Entire post is a suggesstion.
Also At no time have you ever provided anything positive in response to this issue.
You have done nothing to inquire about whether or not blade theory was higher fidelity than what is currently used within Aces. As far as being rude im sorry that you feel this way, I feel that I have acted in a professional manner.
Hitech I really do love how this ever evolving program is comming along. I dont even want to really call it a game anymore becuase it is Becomeing a Very good WWII multi - War simulation. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)So dont ever think that I am by anymeans putting Aces down (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
okay this is getting lenghty, So ill end it.
Salute to all (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Even the ones who flame me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Ps citabra it was a T-43 Navy Trainer =) Full Acro ride nice (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Never mind the flight models..
Can anyone explain to me why the majority of folks writing here can't spell?
Let's resolve that one first and then dig into the more demanding stuff. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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how much are they paying you to advertise like that, deez?
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Just add spin/stalls and buffeting and AH would be 10/10.Gameplay is the #1 priority and AH has it in spades,but FM could be more challenging.<not more realistic,but more challenging>Lets discuss and not throw buttered shrimps on the barbie.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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wait, beef
youd rather have something that is more challenging then realistic?
I'd think most people prefer a FM which is exact?
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Originally posted by moose:
wait, beef
youd rather have something that is more challenging then realistic?
I'd think most people prefer a FM which is exact?
But since they wouldn't know exact if it bit them on the prettythang, they try to judge exactness by a method's name - as if it has anything to do with accuracy of the result. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Who said that results produced by a table would differ in any way from results produced by realtime calculation? Computers are faster - fine. That allows to store bigger and more detailed tables.
miko
[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 05-01-2001).]
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The fact is Aces is a constantly evolving and improving product, and that is one of the reasons I like it. But I feel that we the Aces High customers have every right to make well thought out (not just flight model _____ is porked) suggestions to Hitech and and have them considered without being ridiculed. Like Deezcamp says Aces High is an excellent game as a whole , but there are other games out there they may do certain things a little better. No one doubts Hitech's expertise in this field, he has been doing airplane simulations for years, but I think if Hitech could occasionally put his ego aside he may just get some good suggestions from the community.
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Hmm and where do you think the majority of the suggestions that have been implemented into Aces High have come from? Could it be the user community? *gasp*!!
I did not see HiTech ridicule the suggestion, only point out that there is more than one way to accomplish the same task. I believe you read a bit too much into a short post that said exactly what he meant it to say.
SB
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I haven't flown any WW2 airplanes in real life, so I'll accept the Flight Models as being as accurate as can be duplicated on the PC, and credit HTC for doing the best they can with the data they have.
I HAVE flown a DeHavilland Vampire, a very early jet fighter and can tell you, the arado reminds me a lot of it. Takes quite a while to slow down and speed up. Those traits are definetly consistent with all the early jets (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Paul J. Busiere
Aces High Arena handle: BD5Pilot
http://bd5.checksix.net (http://bd5.checksix.net)
BD-5 "T" (TurboProp) 90% complete, first flight in 2001 (We hope!)
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SB - I think that you are reading something into my post. I never said that Hitech "ridiculed" Deezcamp's suggestion. I basically said that Hitech shrugged it off as tripe, as I have seen him do to many poeple's suggestions. I have seen Hitech get offended by certain suggestion, and it seems the FM is the quickest way to do it. I guess I would just like to see a little more friendly relationship between the customers and Hitech.
As far as tables being able to model flight as well as real time calculation, the proof is in the planes, if you will. Planes like the niki are hard proof of the failing of the tables model. With a real time model, a plane like the Niki would perform according to its shape, weight, and power, not some table that says "At X alt pulling Y amount of Gs , Fly this speed."
I kinda feel like the people here don't even wan't to try anything else to see if there is a difference. Only a couple poeple here have even tried it. Most seem content to thow out their theory then stick their head in the ground. Just try it for goodness sakes. Watch the way the planes move. Try a hammerhead and tell me that the planes momentum doesn't seem more realistic. But don't just slam deez for making suggestions.
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Well, 1.04 was supposedly the most realistic FM available...that was until 1.05 came around and then that was the most realistic and 1.04 was crap...how long will it take before the current one becomes "unrealistic"?? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Daff
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CO, 56th Fighter Group
www.56thfightergroup.org (http://www.56thfightergroup.org)
This is Yardstick, follow me"
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Originally posted by SirLoin:
Just add spin/stalls and buffeting and AH would be 10/10.
We already have spins, stalls and buffeting. Fly an aircraft to the edges of it's envelope (especially an energy fighter) and you will see AH has accelerated stalls, high speed compression buffet, low speed stalls and spins that are difficult to get out of without practice.
Guess AH is 10/10 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Yes,it has them..But in a "Relaxed" sort of way... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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The day they put the easymode button on the dash board, any attempt at being a sim went out the window.
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Originally posted by easymo:
The day they put the easymode button on the dash board, any attempt at being a sim went out the window.
Agreed.
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Sorry guys, I will have to disagree with you here. The combat trim to me makes up for the fact that this is a computer game. In a real airplane, the effects of the plane being out of trim are much more obvious. In a game however, its harder for pilots to get that "feel". Plus, its is only an option, you don't have to use it if you dont want to.
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PEOPLE this is getting rediculous, This is very simple, just download the X-plane demo, goto the www.x-plane.com (http://www.x-plane.com) to get it, then goto the www.x-plane.org (http://www.x-plane.org) website and download a 51/p41/202/38 from the "registry" or anyother warbird for that matter and just see for your self. Instead of argueing to death my post about the fidelity of aces flight model. TRY the blade element theory program then make a post about its fidelity.
We all can talk for years about variables and numbers and mathematical ways to approach flight physics calculation, But instead of speculation TRY THE PROGRAM THEN COMPARE WHAT you CAN do IN x-plane Versus WHAT you cannot do in ACES.
Danke DeeZCamp out..
Ps IF you do go ahead and ACTUALLY try the xplane look at its FLIGHT characteristics, because that it what we are comparing here. Not Combat or GRAPHICS for that matter.
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What, no Spitfires, Mosquitoes, Lancasters, A6Ms or A7Ms?
Well, then I think not!;-)
Actually, I'm in no position to judge the fidelity of a flight model.
I may download it and look at it just to see, but as it has no aircraft that I have flown a lot in other sims, it'll be pretty meaningless.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Mosquito FB.MkVI Series 2 to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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hehe karnak, they have the ME-262 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) and if you are good at 3d/cad/cam you can create any aircraft that exists today as well as those that may in the future (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) its nice (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Believe it or not ,, some think the FM in AW3 full realizm is closer to real LOL
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DeezCamp I have been using Blade Element therory since I started writing sims.
HiTech