Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Karnak on December 08, 2002, 01:21:17 AM
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Read and explain if you're a Biblical literalist.
Read and laugh if you're rational.
http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/noahs_ark.html
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Beautiful!
Of course you know that part of the Bible is purely metaphorical and not to be taken literally except when it suits the bible thumpers... :rolleyes:
Did Noah take any White, Black, Asian, Native American or Native Australian people? How about all the 8 billion breeds of dog? Or are we to think they evolved after the flood!
However the big all powerful diety, who apperntly needs to defecate, still created the world some 4400 years ago in a few days - although the meaning of days might be different than ours...
Thanks for the link Karnak!
Hortlund come tell me how all this was actually done! :D
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Unless you were there, there's no way of knowing how this was done. If you're saying it didn't happen, the burden of proof is on you. Logically, no, it couldn't happen. The same way flying saucers are not logical...yet, they could exist.
There are many things we don't know about in our Universe. Though there's no room for such speculation from a scientific point of view...we only know what we know, and can prove through experimentation, however, it is possible the laws of Physics as we know them, may not be the same in other places as it is on Earth.
Even the first Moon landing had some scientists worried. They didn't really know what the surface would be like, when man first stepped on the Moon...despite all the previous landings of probes, etc... And this is the end product of the most advanced science on our planet, going to the Moon and returning.
What about other dimensions? Do they exist? Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it's not there. Is this science fiction, or is it real? Do scientists think about these things, or do they discount them outright? Do scientists conduct "think tanks" with these subjects, or just make fun of these ideas?
Les
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It appears that we do have some common ground, GRUNHERZ.;)
(Actually we have more than this, but I'm just not very vocal about those subjects)
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I am all over the place on "the issues". Including this religion thing, for example I am really pissed at all the left wing attempts to remove references to christianity from anything and everthing and then some more even though I think it's all bunk. But on the other side I dont think "creationism" has any right to be anywhere near a public school science class. But I do think school vouchers are a good idea and that parents should have the choice to use their appropriated public funds to send their kids to private, including private religious, schools that might teach this stuff.
I'm also not too upset with the religious "science" people as they always must come to the "Its God and he is all powerfull" because they cannot support any of their "science" absurdities with real life physical reproducable evidence - like lets say a viable blueprit for a fully functional Noah's Ark. But I do think their views on this are stupid...
In the end its just a religion fairy tale, no different than any tribal animal myth, pagan rain god, or the latest mystic and allthogher genuinely human, perfectly understandable for most people to varying extents and quite positive if not taken too seriously and extremely.
Recently my father has found God again and he definetly seems more upbeat and positive- more so than usual as he is normally one hell of a can do guy so thats certainly positive.
My personal view of religion is just that, personal and individual! I'm sick of people who do the religion thing in groups then feel the need to whack the heads off differerent similar groups. Of course this is the most depressing thing about the Jew, Christian, Moslem fights as they all openly worship the same diddlying god of ancient desert dwelling goatherders and they even share the same creation story and many things..
Actually I think we prolly agree on a bunch of things Karnak but our disagreements are much more fun, so why donncha come a bit closer so I can whack your head off.. ;)
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differerent similar groups
This is called an "oxymoron". Not quite sure I am clear what you mean, though.
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Originally posted by Leslie
If you're saying it didn't happen, the burden of proof is on you.
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Yep Kieran!
Different as in different religions, similar as in both religiously devoted and both thinking they are doing gods good work on earth..
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Originally posted by Leslie
If you're saying it didn't happen, the burden of proof is on you.
That is a common logical fallacy employed by laymen.
When making fantastic claims that are demonstrably impossible the claimant has the burden of providing fantastic evidence that it is correct.
In the case of the flood myth, it is demonstrably impossible in many, many ways and yet there has been no fantastic evidence provided by the claimants.
GRUNHERZ,
It sounds like we have a pretty similar view on religion.
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Religion is a set of moral codes combined with assorted fairy tales of what will happen if you ignore said codes, while promising some sort of heaven for following them.
If a God does exist, we're all screwed anyways since he'd have to be an incompetent power hungry sadist.
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Well, I'm not a theologian nor would I consider my self an expert on the Bible. I can't refute the arguements of the author, and I don't presume to "convert" anyone. That is God and God alones priviledge.
The author states, "In order to accept Noah's Ark as fact, you must believe in God first. Without believe in God, it is just laughable." I agree, and perhaps the author would receive my reply as a "cop-out." But first, faith must be present. I believe that faith is a gift from God. A gift that all can receive. Not by my preaching though. That is a mistake the many make in an attempt to "convert" others.
God is a merciful God. I believe any babies that did drown did so by God's permissive will. These children were sinners (original sin). They may not have entered hell, they most likely entered limbo with their ancestors awaiting the Messiah. Yet I dare not make presumtious claims on the judgment of any persons soul.
All I can say is that I believe the story of Noah's ark, because I believe in the inspired Word of God.:)
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Amen, Festus.
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Originally posted by festus
These children were sinners (original sin). They may not have entered hell, they most likely entered limbo with their ancestors awaiting the Messiah.
i don't remember limbo being mentioned in the bible- where is that part again?
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The Bible discusses the dead sleeping until called to rise again, at the second coming of the Messiah. If he wants to use the word "limbo" to describe the state before being called to judgement, that's not inaccurate.
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I believe that a giant purple goat came from space, and populated the world with giant cockroaches. The cockroaches were bad so the goat made humans which were born from the cockroach eggs, and then ate the cockroaches.
Well it's as plausable as a worldwide flood and noah's ark anyways.
I'm sorry but, no matter what invisible man in the sky you pray to, taking any religious story as fact is just plain silly. There are plenty of hard facts showing otherwise. Those who believe in adam and eve or noahs ark are in the same class as the flat earth society.
Ignoring the rest of religion which for the sake of argument we can say is correct, the history of the world is known, and is inarguable. If the world DID go according to the bible, and the rest is there to "trick us", it changes nothing since the world would have been created in a state that was essentially a snapshot of what happened after x billions of years.
There is nothing worse than blind faith. Think for yourself, draw your own conclusions, don't ever accept what you're told unless you can verify it yourself.
Then again, people are stupid, and people are weak, and religion helps with both problems, so any arguing is pointless. (One of the things that really pisses off many athiests I think, is that so many of these people would argue that red and blue are the same color if the bible said so)
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LOL immominate, I not so backwoods. Your implication of my ingroance is okay. I am ignorant. You have to be somewhat ignorant to have faith (by definition). I don't consider your lack of faith, a reason to condem your intelligence, however. God made us in his image and provided us with freewill. You choose to believe what you will and I'll believe what I will. I have no need to prove anything to any one, except myself. And I have come to my own scientific conclusion, based on what knowledge I have. How many times has science been wrong. I don't base my life on faulty science.:)
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Mr. Fish not everything is in the Bible. That for which is important for salvation is present. Many things not in the Bible has been handed down through out the ages. Take some time to read the early chruch fathers (those closest to Jesus). However, limbo doesn't impact wether heaven is achieved or not. Just like evolution, whether true or not doesn't change the fact that I believe in God and the eternal repose of my soul. I will not presume to know or judge anyone elses disposition.
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...nothing worse than Blind Faith
You gotta be kidding me!
Clapton, Winwood and Baker? Worst? NOTHING BETTER!
Sheesh.
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it probably takes less the 100 years to create a new breed of dog...literally taken, the laws MOses brought down for Mt. Sinai say that if your child is disobediant, you should kill it
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Originally posted by Leslie
If you're saying it didn't happen, the burden of proof is on you.
Hehe yet when it's the theory of evolution the burden of proof is on science.... go figure. :D
Anyway I have a question about Noah's Ark - it's a one word question:
Plants?
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Originally posted by Karnak
When making fantastic claims that are demonstrably impossible the claimant has the burden of providing fantastic evidence that it is correct..
Hmm, yes, so what does that statement tell us about the "life generated spontaneously from the primordeal soup"-theory? I have yet to see any fantastic evidence of that actually...
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Originally posted by -dead-
Hehe yet when it's the theory of evolution the burden of proof is on science.... go figure. :D
Anyway I have a question about Noah's Ark - it's a one word question:
Plants?
Seeds perhaps? under the soil maybe?
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Originally posted by festus
How many times has science been wrong. I don't base my life on faulty science.:)
The difference between science and religion is that science is frequently wrong(and proving a hypothesis wrong is often just as important as proving one right), and that religion is never wrong, even with indisputable facts to that effect.
Religion says "That isn't right, therefore it must have been magic.".
Science says "That isn't right, now we need to figure out what is."
As for free will, while we have free will, if god is truely ominscient, he knows what we will do with it. When he creates someone he knows every path they'll follow for thier entire lives. It's logically impossible for an ominiscient, omnipotent god to NOT know. In order for god NOT to know, he needs to be fallible.
So either god must be fallible, or god creates people knowing that they will end up however they end up. When he creates someone who ends up going to hell, he would have known it before he even created them.
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Then again, people are stupid, and people are weak, and religion helps with both problems, so any arguing is pointless. (One of the things that really pisses off many athiests I think, is that so many of these people would argue that red and blue are the same color if the bible said so)
Here we go again... this thread, like many others here lately, was started by a nonbeliever to poke fun at believers- so who is generating the "pointless" arguments? At best it would appear to be people who feel the need to display their intellectual superiority by "hitting" on those they perceive to be intellectually weaker- a form of mental "bullying". So tell me... what do you think of the intellect of your typical bully? ;)
And while you're at it, list all the Christians on the board who are making fun of agnostics and atheists. ;)
Face it, for a group of people that don't want to discuss religion, you sure spend a lot of your time doing it. It isn't the Jehova's Witnesses making you do it- you're doing it all-by-your-selves.
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He he, we seem to be getting off the original subject. Don't get me wrong I don't mind discussing other topics.
Innominate, did I ever mention religion? Some jump to conclusions. Of course religion can be wrong. I never said otherwise. Religion and belief are not the same. For some, empirical science is a religion. Religion stems from a set of beliefs. Jesus didn't start a religion, he started the Church. I dare not say there will be no protestants, catholics, jews, ect. in heaven. I'm not their judge. All I know is what I know, and I try to live by my own priciples.
As far as freewill, think of these things in different ways. I think that God must be a merciful God. This day is full of evil. What keeps Gods justice from destroying us. The mercy of God, that says alot when the Creator would hold back His just wrath, so that as many as possible could be saved.
There are more ways to look at a situation that just one.
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Originally posted by whgates3
the laws MOses brought down for Mt. Sinai say that if your child is disobediant, you should kill it
any parent not been tempted? ;)
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Myths usually have their basis in an actual event. The "flood myth" in which a righteous man builds a boat and saves himself, his family, and fauna of the world is found in cultures all over the world. Ancient writers tended to exaggerate the actual event.
By the way, if you read the book of Genesis a little more closely, you will notice that it does NOT say that the earth was covered with rainwater. It says that the "fountains of the deep" were opened. That indicates that something caused the waters of the ocean to drown the dry land. A great earthquake could cause this, or a meteor strike, or any one of a number of natural phenomenon. A meteor strike, by the way, would also fill the atmosphere with water vapor, setting off torrential rains.
Scientists now think that the "flood myth" may have had its origins in the sudden, disastrous flooding of the Black Sea basin that occurred when the barrier between it and the Mediterranean gave way.
By the way, let's refrain from calling our ancestors "stupid" for believing in myths. It shows a profound lack of respect for who we are and where we came from. By showing respect we also teach it, forestalling the day when our descendants refer to us as "stupid."
Regards, Shuckins
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LOL AKIron
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Originally posted by AKIron
any parent not been tempted? ;)
I have 4, wish I'd known about this little loophole!!!!
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Originally posted by H. Godwineson
Myths usually have their basis in an actual event. The "flood myth" in which a righteous man builds a boat and saves himself, his family, and fauna of the world is found in cultures all over the world. Ancient writers tended to exaggerate the actual event.
By the way, if you read the book of Genesis a little more closely, you will notice that it does NOT say that the earth was covered with rainwater. It says that the "fountains of the deep" were opened. That indicates that something caused the waters of the ocean to drown the dry land. A great earthquake could cause this, or a meteor strike, or any one of a number of natural phenomenon. A meteor strike, by the way, would also fill the atmosphere with water vapor, setting off torrential rains.
Scientists now think that the "flood myth" may have had its origins in the sudden, disastrous flooding of the Black Sea basin that occurred when the barrier between it and the Mediterranean gave way.
By the way, let's refrain from calling our ancestors "stupid" for believing in myths. It shows a profound lack of respect for who we are and where we came from. By showing respect we also teach it, forestalling the day when our descendants refer to us as "stupid."
Regards, Shuckins
The first inteligent evolutionist in this thread! (no offense to others, & forgive me if I missed any post before this that was simi open minded)
Thank you shuckins, now maybe we can have an inteligent conversation :)
True, in allmost every civilization there are tells of a great flood, But I allways looked at this as actuelly prooving the bible, when noahs family split up, they carried their beleifs with them, but of course some people branched off, and created whole new religions, wich did evolved over time, but most likely borrowed from their orriginal religion. Of course at the time there was no such thing as religion really, I think they looked at it more as history, since there were no other religions of the time.
The comet hitting the earth and allowing for it to rain is actuelly a very good theory, and I wouldnt be surprised if this is how God made the flood. People tend to think of God as some king in the clouds pointing his rod at earth magically making things happen..
Thats not how it works :)
Oh and I just wanted to point out somthing I heard in another thread, someone said ALL religions evolve over time, and this is what I thought too even with christianity, but come to find out a modern bible was compared with the writings of the bible 2000 years ago, and they were exactly identicle! Nothing had changed!
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(http://www.core4.net/bocce/medals.gif)
these are for you my esteemed friends salute!
the den mother award- kieran this is all you bud for sticking up against the mean old anti-christian bullies who keep relentlessly attacking poor unarmed christians. when will they just believe and stop being so mean!?
the coveted gymnastics award - you'll have to share this one- godwinson, cajun, festus and friends- congratulations on such wonderful leaps and stretches in attempting to make what you'd like to believe match what we can see in our reality.
the best use of the devil's evil tools of illusion award - innominate, grunherz and karnak for attempting to use reason and logic which as we all know are evil and bad. shame on you all -sinners.
honorable mention- goes undoubtably to toad for best reference to a super cool band
honorable mention - hortlund for most irritating thing from sweden since abba
the i'm covering my ears i can't hear you lalalalalal award - this award isn't pictured but it really exists! some of you have won it straight out, i won't say who you are-no, instead a magical being will appear and award it to you if you say candyman 5 times in front of the mirror.
if i forgot you sorry, but the damned are always looking for a way to be evil what did you expect! :D
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Originally posted by mrfish
(http://www.core4.net/bocce/medals.gif)
these are for you my esteemed friends salute!
the den mother award- kieran this is all you bud for sticking up against the mean old anti-christian bullies who keep relentlessly attacking poor unarmed christians. when will they just believe and stop being so mean!?
the coveted gymnastics award - you'll have to share this one- godwinson, cajun, festus and friends- congratulations on such wonderful leaps and stretches in attempting to make what you'd like to believe match what we can see in our reality.
the best use of the devil's evil tools of illusion award - innominate, grunherz and karnak for attempting to use reason and logic which as we all know are evil and bad. shame on you all -sinners.
honorable mention- goes undoubtably to toad for best reference to a super cool band
honorable mention - hortlund for most irritating thing from sweden since abba
the i'm covering my ears i can't hear you lalalalalal award - this award isn't pictured but it really exists! some of you have won it straight out, i won't say who you are-no, instead a magical being will appear and award it to you if you say candyman 5 times in front of the mirror.
if i forgot you sorry, but the damned are always looking for a way to be evil what did you expect! :D
lol, that magical being wouldn't be your little grey guy with big eyes would it fish?
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the den mother award- kieran this is all you bud for sticking up against the mean old anti-christian bullies who keep relentlessly attacking poor unarmed christians. when will they just believe and stop being so mean!?
I accept this award on behalf of all those that contributed I just hope this breaks down the barriers! We've been held back too long!
Seriously, I have all your addresses and have disseminated that information to the Jehova's Witnesses, Mormons, and other visiting denominations. You'll be receiving your courtesy visits soon. ;)
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Originally posted by mrfish
(http://www.core4.net/bocce/medals.gif)
these are for you my esteemed friends salute!
the den mother award- kieran this is all you bud for sticking up against the mean old anti-christian bullies who keep relentlessly attacking poor unarmed christians. when will they just believe and stop being so mean!?
the coveted gymnastics award - you'll have to share this one- godwinson, cajun, festus and friends- congratulations on such wonderful leaps and stretches in attempting to make what you'd like to believe match what we can see in our reality.
the best use of the devil's evil tools of illusion award - innominate, grunherz and karnak for attempting to use reason and logic which as we all know are evil and bad. shame on you all -sinners.
honorable mention- goes undoubtably to toad for best reference to a super cool band
honorable mention - hortlund for most irritating thing from sweden since abba
the i'm covering my ears i can't hear you lalalalalal award - this award isn't pictured but it really exists! some of you have won it straight out, i won't say who you are-no, instead a magical being will appear and award it to you if you say candyman 5 times in front of the mirror.
if i forgot you sorry, but the damned are always looking for a way to be evil what did you expect! :D
Thank you very much for this fine award, coming from you it is truely the best award I have yet to receive ;)
I think it is clear who won the I can't hear you lalalalala(l) award :D
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Originally posted by Kieran
I accept this award on behalf of all those that contributed I just hope this breaks down the barriers! We've been held back too long!
Seriously, I have all your addresses and have disseminated that information to the Jehova's Witnesses, Mormons, and other visiting denominations. You'll be receiving your courtesy visits soon. ;)
lol! Mormons & Morons, they should get allong quit well!
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yeah apache how could i forget you- you get the "most likely to have been to a tent revival" award, enjoy!
and kieran, please send a southern baptist instead. if we can't agree on the message at least i can bust out my guitar and let it do the talkin' for me. they understand that language, those other guys are too dry. ;)
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Originally posted by mrfish
yeah apache how could i forget you- you get the "most likely to have been to a tent revival" award, enjoy!
and kieran, please send a southern baptist instead. if we can't agree on the message at least i can bust out my guitar and let it do the talkin' for me. they understand that language, those other guys are too dry. ;)
:) Is my award worth more money than your "Area 51" gate pass?
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Mrfish,
The cream always rises to the top. But are you really qualified to judge our talents?
Regards, Shuckins
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Originally posted by H. Godwineson
...The cream always rises to the top....
the scum also rises
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whgates,
Hey! I resemble that remark!
Shuckins
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Originally posted by whgates3
the scum also rises
i loved that book - hemmingway was a genious wasn't he
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Originally posted by cajun
The comet hitting the earth and allowing for it to rain is actuelly a very good theory, and I wouldnt be surprised if this is how God made the flood. People tend to think of God as some king in the clouds pointing his rod at earth magically making things happen..
Thats not how it works :)
Unfortunately, the comet theory does not explain where all the water went (that is if you contend that all the extra water needed to flood the planet over all the mountains, including Everest, came from the comet). Even now there simply is not enough water in any state on this planet to flood it to the level described in the Bible...so if it came from a comet, where did the water go?
Oh and I just wanted to point out somthing I heard in another thread, someone said ALL religions evolve over time, and this is what I thought too even with christianity, but come to find out a modern bible was compared with the writings of the bible 2000 years ago, and they were exactly identicle! Nothing had changed!
[/b]
Hmmm...which modern Bible did they use. It has been documented by theologians that there has been significant tampering with the texts over the years. Not to mention that some of the Gospels were a written transcription of the oral stories of Christ--read the opening words of Luke--and it is of course impossible to compare the original oral tradition to the written transcription.
Here is one very famous instance of Bible tampering:
The most notorious case of an added reading in the Textus Receptus -- and in this case there is no doubt about its having been added -- is found at 1 John 5: 7. It is the strongest statement in the KJV on the Trinity, but it has no basis in the Greek text. It is found in the KJV, of course, because it is in the Textus Receptus. How did it get there? Erasmus did not have it in his first edition of the Greek New Testament (1516) or his second edition (1519). It is thought that under Roman Catholic pressure -- because the passage was in the Latin Vulgate -- Erasmus put it in his third edition (1522). Martin Luther wisely did not include it in his German New Testament of that same year. It seems that Roman Catholics produced Codex Montfortianus, inserting this passage from the Latin. It is a sixteenth century manuscript in Dublin. The facts are that these added words are not quoted by any Greek Fathers of the early church and are absent from all the early versions. They were not in the text of the original Latin Vulgate made by Jerome but were inserted later. There can be no doubt today that the words are not a part of the original text of 1 John.[/i]
This is from http://www.theology.edu/journal/volume1/tr.htm ,which is a Christian site by the way.