Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Wotan on December 10, 2002, 05:02:15 AM
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Did you prefer ah prior to the 300 + main?
I originally loved a main with huge numbers as I had thought that it meant more fights, not just more killing. Well the main has lotsa killing and very few fights.
I think I would prefer if the main split and there were 2 arenas of 250 max.
I was hugely supportive of the idea of bigger maps being the solution. With expanded fronts and more breathing room I had naively thought that we would get away from the mindinao type gameplay and return to a more balanced level of fun. What we see in the large map is the same. Areas where each side gangbangs the undefended areas of the other.
Its absolutely clear to me that base capture as a reset trigger can not be the future if the main is going to remain at 500 folks or higher. The main is either gangbang or be gangbanged. I am not talking about being out numbered. Anyone can fly safe and avoid the pac and go for the easy kills but thats boring. What I am talking about is the attacks on all sides of 50+ mission planned base rapes.
This isnt a veiled reference to suicide bombers either. HTC seems to be looking into that. When folks see masses of red dots ib a field they dont rush to defend, as there is no defence. You get a few guys trying up who get raped repeatedly until they figure out they ought to go else where. Then the bangers Salute themselves for a job well done before moving to the next one.
Maybe I am just bored all together but things sure have changed.
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300 ?
Depend of when you log I rarely see more than 200 except on WE ...
and login with number < 150 is horrible on some map ..
Specially when 80 of those 150 are bishes ...
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I preferred the main when it had 200 or so. The assassins could fly as a pack and we would find excellent fights, base captures, etc etc.
I fly late night now when #s are down because i prefer having my space
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I became bored with the MA really as soon as our squad got into special events (we fly TOD, CAP and scenarios). It jsut doesn't grab my attention as it did - I remember back when we just had the SFMA (I started playing in v1.03) With A1 at 10k it was a lot of fun trying to take the fields on the plain immediately below it.
Prime-time for me, living in the UK, was about 120 max, averaging at 90. You could always find a fight, however, since the maps were relatively small.
I see no reason to divide the arena up. We just need a few gameplay tweaks (I hear those are in the pipeline) and perhaps an end to the pizza map in its present form. I really can't stand that terrain, despite the hard work the makers put into its creation.
I guess it's a 'rose tinted spectacles' situation - undoubtedly AH is a much better game now and I like where it's going, but I feel a certain nostalgia for the first few months of AH for me. :) It was my first online game apart from Quake II, and it blew me away.
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Originally posted by Dowding (Work)
it blew me away.
it still do for me :D
(Imagine I've lost and head-on with a Lancaster last night ... quite dumb no ? :p)
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Wotan I'm with ya here. i'm curious what AH brings with its next release.
Have had a few good 3 vs. 3 or 4 vs. 4 the last days but not one 1 vs. 1 can be found without at least 3 enemies or friendlies coming in and destroying the fun. I dont mind getting shot down in a good fight but I dont like having fun for 30 sec and see 4 red dots screaming in and killing me.
Often when i see a 1 vs. 1 i ask my country man if i should help or stay away but to be honest if the friendly dies I surely come in and try to kill the enemy. ;)
I'm pretty sure we'll get other Maps with changes in the strat system so I'll wait till next release and see what will be.
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I realy dont care much for the fighting on the smal maps becuase it realy is not fighting, as Wotan said it is 10% push them back to the field and 90% rape them their mama's and the house they live in get's put to the torch, little or no thought is put the fact that we may want to use the base after it is taken, wose still the MA player has the atention span of a 4 year old and if the hangers all go down they all take off, and the base is loast after all that killing to no end.
Personaly I would rather pay 30$ a month and have half the people playing, or perhaps Wotan is right two areans with a 250 player cap on each.
I realy feal their used to be more fighting, now days it reminds me of FA alot.
Thge realy wierd thing is that the single best thing I can do for my fighter rank is kill guyes on the runway at one of these bases that is being raped, if I want to be competive in the rank catagory I must do this, and the best plane for this is the George or the C hog, ruthless aplacation of firepower brought down on nebies, spawing clulesly and bveeing inatieated in such a maner that I wounder if it does not put some of them off.
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Agreed Wotan.
The other night, Knights were getting gangbanged by Rooks...and Bish. As the number of Knight bases began to shrink, the country jumpers began fleeing en masse Any attempt to get a plane off a field was met with vultching, or hordes and face shooting N1K2's
I just said "f*ck it" and went over to the CT where there were smaller hordes of face shooting N1K2's :)
Seriously, it would be nice to have one arena in which head-on shots were disavowed by the FE.
400+ folks flying the older maps just aint working for me...glad to hear I'm not alone.
DmdMax
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Originally posted by DMax
Seriously, it would be nice to have one arena in which head-on shots were disavowed by the FE.
Oh cripes
Sorry but that'd be incredibly stupid and everyone knows that it'll never happen.
Head on only happens if you let it.
Way to work that whine into a completely different discussion though. I'd give it an 8 if it hadn't already been brought up 10000 times before.
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As i stated in the other thread (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72188) i would love to see 2 MAs. One like the current and the other with an early planeset. This would devide the people and prevent getting shot down by a N1K in u'r beloved 109E4 :D .
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I am hoping the new mission arena finally achieves the style of play I would like to try. When the right number and type of people are playing in the CT, I have a pretty good time. Other than that, I have had way more fun playing HtH than I have ever had in the MA. The most fun I have had in the MA has usually been fights involving 8 or less total aircraft, so why should I even bother to play in the MA? The MA guarantees numbers, but not much else.
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im impressed wotan, you do know how to whine .. :D
usually i see you beat up on anyone that is not happy with some aspect of the game. I was under the impression that you was payed by HTC ;)
Down to serious business....
I agree with you on this one Wotan :)
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I miss the "Cheers-like" feel of the early AH days.
Ya'd log in and "eveyone knew your name"
Alot more were given.
Alot more "good fights" typed regardless of whom won.
Alot more sharing of info in regards to how to improve ones' skill.
But of course I'm very glad HTC is doing well, especially considering how small the overall flightsim community is compared to first person shooter type communities.
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This contest seems like a complete disaster to me. It encourages and rewards behaviors most people find offensive - score mongering, flying dweeb planes, vultching, gangbanging, etc. I pity the poor newbs trying to learn the game in such an environment.
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I have np with hos. They dont bother me a bit and I rarely ever take a ho and am almost never killed in one. Spray n pray and long range gunner piss me off everytime though. I cant recall the last time I was killed inside d600.
The mt will be more restrictive then the ct. I dont hold out any hopes of it drawing any more then the ct does now. I certainly dont expect it to be an alternative to the main.
I just think the current gameplay model sets the stage for everything about the main that I have come not to like. I dont mind late war aircraft or hos or any of that.
What I find bothersome is the singular focus on field capture with a main population above 400.
Bases arent "captured" they are just rolled up on by a mass onslaught. Folks refuse to fight in anything but that mass. They run or avoid fighting any other way. Their are a few folks that dont.
If the field capture aspect of AH stays the same then I would suggest a split into 2 seperate arenas.
My squad has decided to stop flying in most events because it seems the same type of behavior you see in the main is repeated in these events.
I have no love of object based events as they lead to some of the most gamey types of behavior.
The last 2 tods we flew around in circles for 1 hour 45 min doing nothing. Then to land and refuel and take back off to get raped by 40k aircraft in the last 10 min. Cap has become just like the main to me. I still enjoy the big scenarios even though they have become object based as well. However there are only 70 or so guys that regularly fly axis planes. From reading the bbs about Niemen theres very few interested in flying on the axis side again.
Maybe I am being over critical and its more of an effect of my general boredom/burn out.
I still have an interest in flight sims but theres really nothing else out there. If wb3 didnt suck bellybutton I would go there for a bit. If il2 wasnt so clumsy in trying to find good online games and if it didnt take a whole afternoon to get 1 or 2 fun fights in I guess I would go there.
Anyway I think it may be time for break......................
edit
the "contest" is irrelevant as the same guys are at the top that are there anytime they put there mind to it.
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milnko, i remember that to and i have only been playing since early 2001....was nice.:)
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Wotan, hopefully mission arena will get some participation and unload MA. I am waiting for mission arena, because it is most promising feature in AH yet. Engaging groups of bombers, diving thru the fighters cover, using clouds to escape, engaging 20 p47s with 20 109g6 at 25k, and lot of other thing which this arena promises to provide is always were the most exciting experience in AH scenarios for me.
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I hope so Fariz :)
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If you fly D9's or G10's or P51's then you probly don't like crowds. I like the slower planes and big furballs. I really don't like flying or fighting the d9's or 51's but... at least in a crowd you can make em go away.. after a few rounds of dodgeball they (if they are smart) run away or die because they can't concentrate on a single target... a group of three or four of them working in concert can even be ignored. I like being able to ignore the planes that won't fight.
If I get caught by such a plane and his buddies while I am in an Fm2 say.. and I am a ways from home with no one around.. I'm dead meat. They don't need a great deal of skill. just a little patience..
Still... I think lately with the "missun" mindset and the "competition"... even with a lot of numbers... people are simply hiding from each other long enough to join a gangbang.. very timid arena lately.
lazs
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The number of bases, about 75, on the small maps are not enough to avoid the overcrowding when there is 300+ on line. The pizza map would probably be better if there was a way to de-activate about 80 of the 240 bases it has.
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I have to agree Wotan....I'll be interesed to see this side evening thing they have so called coming.
Also the mission arena would be nice..but I dubt we'll see it any time soon..
P.S. Do you give pointers in your Luffwaffle rides :D
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I think the problem is lack of "front line".
In small maps, theres so many people and the fields are so close together that anyone can just up a SHORT RANGE interceptor plane and fly to the nearest field (less than 1.4 sectors away) and furball, zoom in guns blazing at whatever moves, spraying cannon all over,die to his counterpart on red icon country, repeat ad nauseum.
In large maps the fields are still 1.4 or less sectors from each other, but there is so much space that people still congregate into the highest fields or fields that provide alt advantage in their zone (or heck, they just converge wherever theres a big red AND green bars), leaving huuuuge areas wheer fields are just not populated. Result is the "same as small map" issue in the areas where people converge and "milkrunning" undefended bases by a few others, which is damn easy to do with said SHORT RANGE interceptors and 1 bomber flight going NOE.
I would suggest a new type of map be made where a "front line" is present all the time. This can be achieved by DRASTICALLY reducing the number of fields. I'll take pizza map for example, on one of the 3 pizza slices there are what? 2 or 3 dozen fields? Reduce that to just 9 airfields or so and scatter them so they are 2+ sectors apart. Fill the gap in the middle with VEHICLE BASES arranged in a "trench" fashion around the base as well as in between bases "no-mans-land", making a ground war be just as viable to capture the enemy base as an aerial effort.
Here's a "slice" i edited... circles are airfields , squares are vbases.. done in less than 2 minutes with paint, just so you get an idea:
This added to strat targets in area would give each side 3 large airfields per "slice" to take off from, and a dozen or so vehicle bases to fight for the "front line".
To capture an enemy airfield just by "furballing the hell out of it" would be quite conterproductive, as the airfield can be accessed by up to 5 vbases, making the furballers end up facing hordes of flaktanks and m3's on resuply runs. Taking out the vbases would be paramount.. as well as capturing them.
And for once AH might have short range interceptors actually intercepting and doing ground support (you will hardly see an enemy la7 flying over your airfield because they wont have the gas to stay there long after flying almost 3 sectors to get there), bombers bombing infrastructure (vbases and fields and factories) that will actually help their side win (if vbases are up, you aint taking that field baby), and medium range fighters sweeping the "no mans" land along with the long range fighters, which also escort buffs into enemy territory and perform deep fighter sweeps.
In short, it splits up gangbangfest furballs into smaller furballs all over the map. Each side HAS to defend their vbases or the other side will roll over 1 of the 3 or 4 airfields they have per slice with relative ease AS WELL as providing the red side a field inside their territory (read:la7s now can furball your entire piece of the slice). Losing 1 airfield can be a disaster. But then again, you have quite a number of vbases around the field allowing you with ground action as well as the ability to supress the enemy in the field while your "troops" secure the area and retake the field.
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Yep, Horde Warrior is getting real boring.
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CT with 15 or 20 peeps onboard been giving me a lot more fun than the MA.
Still....People seem to be enjoying themselves, well...except for the usual suspects, in the MA.
Without really thinking too much on it. A couple of smaller 250 sized areans might be preferred but would split the loving family up....dunno.
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Originally posted by popeye
Yep, Horde Warrior is getting real boring.
Yep... I'm taking a break. Maybe I'll get interested again but as it is now when I play... uhh uhh. A wall of latewar rides from 3ft to 25k+ doesnt bring much of a thrill.
xBAT
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AH is still fun.....
yesterday....can't remember which base.....but rooks came in numbers...alrighty i said....a fight....so take a spit5 expecting some fighting.....DOH!!!! not to be....yaks pony's 190's la7's an 38's.....got cherry picked to death....couldn't run anyone down....see where I'm goin with this:p
rooks forced me to take out my brand new Mustang....bad for the rooks :eek:
the game is still fun....
1on1 are just a little harder to find is all.....but gimme a whack in the MA and we can rectify that situation:D
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I only really fly Special Events and then wherever my squad decides to fly after the Friday TOD. I don't fly any other times. *shrug* got tired of the MA a looooong time ago.
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Rolling Planeset = Bliss
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It's the arrival of the big pork. Been there, done that, eventually left AW because of that. The path of least resistance, simpler is better for most, success without having to really go through the fairly tough and ego stinging A2A and A2G learning curve (I can remember numerous months before I got a positive K/D - looking back, mostly SA mistakes). What is ironic, is that the weakest part of this type of simulation becomes the most important. The strat model in AH or AW is/was cannot be compared to games designed for strategic and tactical play.
My understand behind the birth of these games, and the model in place in 1993/4 when I stated playing SVGA AW, is that the strat was there to facilitate ACM. All of the BBS materials, tutorials, the attitude in the arena, etc. reinforced that impression. Base capture was just a tool to facilitate A2A encounters. A niche function almost, a diversion when in the mood. Sometime around the Gamestorm era the enthusiast population was swallowed up by a mass audience less interested in reliving the exploits of Bader, or Bong, Sakai or Hartmann, and more interested in winning a game. [it was also the point at which the central/neutral capture concept had to be shelved due to server issues with having too many numbers in a centralized area. IMO this is the best capture mode (brings everybody together), but likely still impractical with the numbers here.]
There does seem to be more fighting than in the AW big pork, or at least fighting opportunities might be a little easier to get to in AH. I can remember some landgrabs in AW where the fight was 3 or more sectors away because the bases were porked 2 deep around the front line (very easy to pork bases) to eliminate opposition. But, you do have to work harder these days to find a reasonable fight (particularly in pizza). And once there, the fight doesn't seem to last very long before a gangbang shift occurs, or a lack of interest sets in among the milkrunners you're attacking, and suddenly its back to the map and hope that a fight is going on somewhere else. But for me it's not nearly as bad as the last years of AW in this regard as of yet.
It's an interesting challenge for HTC. Growth and numbers are good for business, and generally good for the game environment and community, but the masses are shown to be more console and arcade focused. Not an elitist flame, just look at console penetration figures and the type of games you play on them. At the same time, the hard core enthusiasts form a backbone of any simulation, but this is a niche population that is likely never going to generate significant growth. History just plain bores a lot of people. Finding a balance is tricky, but I get the impression that at the end of the day the simulation will remain more important than the game at HTC. I mean hell, I've been shot down by both HT and Pyro, and when the developers actually play the game that says a lot, and HT seems to be on the same page seeing this as a problem.
Charon
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I have seen the atmosphere in Aces High change as some have already described even in the short time I have been playing. Like a lot of folks I guess, I like a "MA" style environment for shoot em up game play. But I don't "really" fight in Aces High - it's more hoard management - where sometimes you eat bear and sometimes the bear eats you. Mostly snapshot opportunities, get the other guy before someone else does, etc etc.. I can't remember the last "good fight" I had. There are just a whole hell of a lot of people going after the same meat in AH.
(I don't know what happens when we in the US time zones are asleep - but it sounds like the europeans are happier, but then see they have the numbers wotan suggested too?)
In the "'old 'un days" of AW, there were several full arenas with max player caps of 250. People talked about where they flew "I fly arena 3 etc etc". It worked for them, maybe it would work here too - the Europeans seem happy.
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I also miss the early days. The MA definetly had a different feel to it. Channel one usually had constructive stuff going on (usually:)). I miss the old familiar handles like hollywood, wardog, torque, even fishu, etc. We had our moments, like when that guy called me a n*gger, and I posted a screenshot of it here. ;) Sorry pyro.
Channel 1 these days is so full of useless childish babble when I fly I actually sometimes squelch it. IMO, HT needs to do something with channel 1. It reminds me of junior high school at times. Sometimes it can be funny, but usually just filled with clueless dorks.
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Originally posted by Rude
Rolling Planeset = Bliss
It is working for warbirds so well? :)
I hated that, was main reason I kept lookin in on AH.
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I agree with wotan in his observations and recomendations.
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Originally posted by Nifty
I only really fly Special Events and then wherever my squad decides to fly after the Friday TOD. I don't fly any other times. *shrug* got tired of the MA a looooong time ago.
Our squad is sort of in the opposite phase, they have tired of the events - just pulled out of the TOD series in fact. Just wasn't fun for us anymore.
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I kinda miss the old days where the cap for the MA was about 50 people. Ahhh the good ole days.
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When the MA broke 100 on an average night I was amazed. The smaller arena sizes were fun. They had a sort of honor or chivarly to them :) Kinda like the BoB before Germany began targeting civilians. Aww, good ol days. :D
Nowadays, it seems everyone is trying to get that huge score or game it and milk it for all its worth. Furballing is fun, but when it becomes a horde on a horde, its a complete mess. Don't get me wrong, that has a chaotic-fun appeal to it *sometimes*... it gets old. Its rare to find a *GOOD* 1v1 fight unless ya verbally set it up before hand :).
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It's not the lower numbers that I miss, it's the mindset.
We will never go back to that.
Fortunately, there are still lots of nice poeple in here (including some of the new chaps, most are decent poeple... always a few rotten apples. I found out the same standards are found in RL...unfortunately :))
*added:
What realy bothers me today, is that you have to fill your enemy with lead till he goes *boom*. or otherwise some shmuck will come and shoot at the tumbling flaming wreck.
I realy despise(sp?) that.
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The entire "feel" of the game haschanged dramatically since the beginning (I started in late 99). Truthfully I lved the open beta up thru 1.4 the best. Been going downhill since 1.4 (IMHO). I'm one of those yoyo's who'll up against a good stick 15-20 times even if I keep getting hammered. I do realize that the game is much more complete...and realistic...afterall ww2 WAS a gangbang. But I miss "the old days".
I'm on break # 3 or 4 now and will be back for 1.11...or the holidays. But it's evolved into a differnt game...the real guestion is if I/we evolve with it. Seems like an "air only" arena would be a welcome addition.
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I too, miss the old days. We were a close knit group, small and competitive, but friends all the same.
When you engaged a P51 or P38, you knew it would most likely be a Yeager or a Rude. A fight on your hands to say the least. You looked for 109's 'cause it might be HB or an F4u 'cause it was probably Torque. Just stayin' outta the way of them taters and you were alright, lol.
Now, just not the same. I can't tell you the last time I had a fight with Yeager or Rude or any of the rest of the old guys. I relished the fight with these guys, mentioned and not mentioned. Didn't matter a whit who won. The game was the fight. Now, to me, its just whoever is the fastest and outnumbered.
Its funny, I couldn't wait for AH to get bigger with lots of players. Guess I got what I asked for, just didn't bargain for the result.
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I think it's the nature of the beast. As long as this grows and gets bigger, a wider spread of players comes in. We have a more representative example of the average real life population. As Saw states, generally nice people, a few rotten apples.
I can't say I miss early days. I think I rather like current situation. Numbers in themselves make a difference in my online experience and, no matter how badly ballanced, I enjoy more my time online when there are a lot of airplanes around....especially enemas :)
I pretty much agree with Ch.1 degeneration. Maybe ;) I have my own share on this. Again, I think it's got to do with numbers. But I do not find, roughly speaking, an offensive situation. Some folks just need to grow some skin, and some others a bit of manners.
Cheers,
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I still have rose colored glasses for SVGA days myself Oedipus :) Even there though it was not really optimal when you get down to it, at least for FR. First, fights could be somewhat hard to find because there weren't that many people on (FR), even in prime time. 30 or so in the Pac and 50 or 60 in the ETO would be a good night :) And, chivalry came naturally too. On a Saturday morning, when there were 4Bz, 3Cz and 6 Az up, you didn't want to vulch anyone for fear they would take their ball and go home :) I remember in the last weeks before AOL, they used the small maps in FR which was a heck of a furball arena.
I took a year off AW right at the start of Gamestorm. Actually flew in the Big Week mission, had my two major drops, then gave it a whirl again a year later when the monkey returned. I knew something was up when I "chased" a high p-51 across a whole sector only to have him make one dive on an undefended base and get killed by ack. WTF? Why didn't he boom n zoom me to death? Then you noticed these big one-sided radar bars off in far away sectors of the huge pac map. You country was doing it, the others were doing it, nobody seemed to really want to mix it up - just capture beaten-down bases that wouldn't even result in a reset. It's still not quite that bad here, but it does seem to be human nature to head in that direction if the opportunity exists.
Charon
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Split the main and limit numbers? I think not. This was done in AW and it hurt gameplay.
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I miss the fact that fights use to actually be spread out.
There was a large number of people scattered in between fields, mixed up between friendlies and enemies going at it.
Now, there's only a handful of people that will venture a lil ways away from their base and they promptly get shot down by the opposing hoarde.
Even with numbers advantages, these people are for the most part timid gang bangers and they don't go too far away from the pack.
Regardless of the map, this thing is turning more into "radish High" over run with late war uber rides.
Head2Head arenas are more fun, atleast they fight there.
-SW
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I don't remember the release version but, yeah, I miss the old days when we had the beta map and under 100 players.
Would spend many happy hours in buffs with KG200 ( Bluedog and Dead) to move dirt. Those were the days :)
I even remember the first time I saw the pizza and beer...was amazed at it.
Kinda like loosing your virginity...it looses it's special feeling :(
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This game was great before Wotan and Beefcake signed up:)
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Was better befor Pongo signed up too:)
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miss the fact that fights use to actually be spread out.
There was a large number of people scattered in between fields, mixed up between friendlies and enemies going at it.
Now, there's only a handful of people that will venture a lil ways away from their base and they promptly get shot down by the opposing hoarde.
Even with numbers advantages, these people are for the most part timid gang bangers and they don't go too far away from the pack.
Regardless of the map, this thing is turning more into "radish High" over run with late war uber rides.
Head2Head arenas are more fun, atleast they fight there.
-SW
Yup its not the map, its the general population.........However things get more aggravated in the larger map because there so much more for the hoard to go after.
I never viewed AH as something that can be "won". Resets always happened but the base capture seemed a side show to the a2a war. Now we have whole groups of folks who only play the land grab reset game. They take the paths of least resistance whether it be undefended fields or suicide runs.
People wonder why ostwinds get the majority of the kills in ah. Its because everyone is busy killing themselves in the great land grab going for that reset.
Folks would rather die to ack or auger before fighting.
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I really liked the early days of AH I just could not afford to play in consecutive months. :D
The other night I had a great string of fights in defense of A48 (Mindanoa sp?) while flying for the Rooks. The Bish were constantly running up and trying to knock 48 out to get a clearer shot at our CV. I actually got into 4 consecutive fights with 3 different P-38's and a P-51. They were escorting a flight of B-17's to hit the base at A48. Too bad the bombers sucked because their escorts forced me and the other CAP fighters into playing with them. I was flying an F4U-1D in the fights so it really was not what I wanted as a matchup but the previous A6M2's and A6M5b's that came up off the Bish CV in the area were not a very exciting matchup. I must have flown for two hours up there fighting and defending the base and CV.
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here's what =TED= Does when the Gangbang crew shows up :D
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Haha OZkansas, if anyone remembers when I first joined up I was such a "Little General". Remember how I would sweety constantly? I guess I've calmed down since then.
Ahh sometimes I miss the good ole days of AH.
When there were only 21 fields total on the map. (7 per side)
When bases only had 2 and 3 acks.
When there were no hangers.
When you could fly a goon at 200mph, 5 feet off the ground and drop all your troops out without even one of them getting a twisted ankle.
When the Osty and the La7 did not exist.
When taking up a HUGE force of B17s and escorts to bomb an enemy City and HQ actually MENT something.
Ahh there are too many memorys to post...all I can say is sometimes I miss the old days.
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C'mon guys....don't ya get it?
It's always like this with everything in life....when it was new, it was more exciting...ya look back and remember how it was so much better back then.
I'm the same way about AWDOS, then WB's and now AH.... your first real girl friend or your first car, etc.
I agree, that AH is different and has lost that lovin feeling to some extent, but my faith remains with those who brought us here....patience will be rewarded.
In the meantime, probably accepting the fact that it will never be as sweet as you remember it, will help alot:)
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Its still not impossible to get a 1v1 in MA you just gotta try and tease 1 away from a gang bang by looking like an easy kill.
Problem is it takes time and you gotta look like your running to hook em far enough away from the crowd.
As for CAP i still enjoy it but it has changed in its short time, as you say it seems to be going in the direction of find a furball fast, perhaps it would be better if each event had more objectives to accomplish, over a wider area to force separation.
I know this will not apply to your squad Wotan but i also suspect the Axis rides in CAP are less appealing now as the allies planeset improves.
As for the MA sometimes i log off in disgust and go read a book, i have no interest in raping or being raped and its very rare you catch me vulching as thats not what i consider a fight.
You will usually find me fighting away from my squad for the simple reason i prefer not to gang the Rooks.
A good fight was definitely easier to find when the numbers were lower.
I reckon the mass land grab and gang banging is driven by those less skilled and noobs, safety in numbers kinda thing.
But wait is it coincidence it got worse around the time of the AW influx ?
;)
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No its not the planeset in Cap, the 109f is more capable then a spit 5. It was my group of 12 against well over double our number in the last 2. I cant sell that to the guys my squad. I cant sell tod when I have guys getting up at 4 and 5 am or staying up way late to fly around for an hour and 45 min to then after refuel run into double our number of 40k nme fighters and 27k bombers.
With 15 min to go you either run headlong and try to make a maricle happen or rtb and call it a night. I cant generate much excitement for the next one. I asked my guys about Cap. I heard the same things.
I am not complaining AH has a great appeal to allied flyers. Look at BoB. I had numerous openings. Not just in the typical bombers but 109e flights were empty and not even walkons to place.
Can you believe in a BoB scenario that in every frame their would be 109 e slots open? Lots of umm.
But thats different then the main. I dont necessarily seek 1 v 1s just anything other then 10 to 1 or run.
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My biggest gripe on gameplay is the "unlimited life" aspect of all the arenas. It turns them mostly into low alt furball fighting. I tried it in AW, WB, and AH, and I am so done now with MA's of any kind. I fly there once in a while with a squaddie for "the heck of it" but my hearts not in it. Its just not that interesting.
The thing I like most about events is the 1 life per frame or, in the case of the CAP event, 1 life per 30 minutes. Pilots grab alt because they realise they dont get free lives if they blow the first one. To me, it makes a huge difference. There is a point to it all, and its the only place to get a decent "WW2" mission. You actually see bombers and escorts, that care wether they come back or not at the end of it.
Also I find there is a completely different community amongst the regular event flyers, its smaller, and more friendly. I found this in WB too in comparing MA to event play, big time.
Im not knocking MA, it will always pay the HTCs bills, so I can fly in the Snapshots and TODs. Each to their own.
A quick edit: I also think that there are issues of balance in events, true, but they are on a completely different order of magnitude to MA. I fly all the events, some work out ok, some dont but on the balalnce, they are still far and away the best flying.
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The thing about events now is they are all almost always object based in terms of victory. This leads to the very same gameyness you see in the main.
Capture XXX and win. Kill the 2 red buildings by the big black one or kill 80% of the black ones. etc........
Deaths and losses are never a factor in victory. So you may have 1 life but outside your wanting to last a while in the event that life has little bearing on the out come.
In the MT HT has indicated that mission success and surviving will be part of the equation.
What events lack now is way for a smaller force to win. When deaths/losses are factored in a small force can enflict enough damage as to achieve a "mission kill". Take a bomber mission in which a smaller forces engages and strips away an escort and a smaller force engages the bombers and kills 45% of them with very few losses. Even though the bombers get through and hit the 2 little buildings they hardly "won". But in ah they call that a victory. Until this gets some how worked back into events in ah I just cant see them being any thing but ma like, but more boring.
In these events the Axis side is almost always outnumbered. Its impossible to stop a greater force smashing its way to target regardless of losses.
So I think the idea that events may be 1 life until that 1 life means something then I will have to pass.
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Originally posted by Beefcake
Haha OZkansas, if anyone remembers when I first joined up I was such a "Little General". Remember how I would sweety constantly? I guess I've calmed down since then.
Ahh sometimes I miss the good ole days of AH.
When there were only 21 fields total on the map. (7 per side)
When bases only had 2 and 3 acks.
When there were no hangers.
When you could fly a goon at 200mph, 5 feet off the ground and drop all your troops out without even one of them getting a twisted ankle.
When the Osty and the La7 did not exist.
When taking up a HUGE force of B17s and escorts to bomb an enemy City and HQ actually MENT something.
Ahh there are too many memorys to post...all I can say is sometimes I miss the old days.
He heeeeeeee,ya remember ya being a General, heheeee. You were also a commited B-17 driver too, I think you were the only one, as well as a goon driver:)
Remember Hang and what's his name having the big P-51 and LW duel in the MA and RAM, heheee,ya, RAM heheee,remember RAM? The BBS filled with RAM comments heheeee! The only guy who quit daily heheeeeeeeee! What was his original name?
I wonder if ya could view that film of Hang and what's his name if the film showed up? I think it was an exciting fight if memory serves me right.
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"Take a bomber mission in which a smaller forces engages and strips away an escort and a smaller force engages the bombers and kills 45% of them with very few losses. Even though the bombers get through and hit the 2 little buildings they hardly won".
I have to agree 110 percent. I would also like to see a change in scoring some of these events too. It should matter that pilots rtb their a/c.
Example: I would much rather see 1/3 of the B-17s get downed, and 1/3 of the P-51s lets say...Im just being hypothetical here...and say 1/3 of the LW gets downed and another 1/3 has to rtb for damage and ammo, scored upwards for the LW because they had fewer a/c to start with, and call that a tactical victory for them?, than forcing the LW to use near suicidal attacks to down all the bombers to technically "win" the frame, but almost 90 percent of the LW fighters are downed along with all of the B-17s.
Inflict losses, and get home, the target gets bombed, but its not scored strictly on BDA. Im just throwing a quick example up there, Im sure you get my gist. The fighters should not think they have to commit suicide by "stopping" all the bombers, that makes no sense. Not for event play. Also escorts have to rtb as well, they cant just expend the whole force on ack running, chasing cons past fuel limits, and fruitless dogfighting.
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Wotan,
Arena size is just one factor that has changed since Beta.
Maps have changed,
Players have changed,
Planes and GVs have changed,
Strat has changed,
Bombers have changed,
You and I have changed,
And so on...
Two main arenas may help the matter, but I doubt that things would ever even remotly resemble the old Beta MA.
The closest thing to it... is of course... the CT.
What has been described in this thread is one of the reasons why I prefer to fly there.
eskimo
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Wotan: I totally agree with you I find the MA best under 300 players more then that and it just turns into a big mess especially with the old maps. And I can't stand the texture of the Pizza map so I don't include it.
I now try and avoid logging on at peak times. All up AH is starting to lose it's interest for me and seems more like Quake every day. Along with the aging (very fast these days) graphics and total lack of strategy I can see my account closing soon unless there are some changes on the way that offer alot more then a couple new planes and a redundent bomber.
...-Gixer
The Horse Soldiers
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I think the biggest change in AH in the last year (player base wise that is) is the mindset that has developed.
Many are now perfectly happy to suicide, bail, ditch etc rather than try to survive a sortie. It seems that the MA is now just another Quake server. I guess it always was to a certain extent, it just didn't seem so prevalent before.
I also think the average courtesy level has dropped too. Too much smack talking and not enough 's these days. Most of the time I only see the old hands giving them out.
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Originally posted by 214thCavalier
Its still not impossible to get a 1v1 in MA you just gotta try and tease 1 away from a gang bang by looking like an easy kill.
Problem is it takes time and you gotta look like your running to hook em far enough away from the crowd.
As for the MA sometimes i log off in disgust and go read a book, i have no interest in raping or being raped and its very rare you catch me vulching as thats not what i consider a fight.
You will usually find me fighting away from my squad for the simple reason i prefer not to gang the Rooks.
A good fight was definitely easier to find when the numbers were lower.I reckon the mass land grab and gang banging is driven by those less skilled and noobs, safety in numbers kinda thing.
exactly. this is why you see me going off about lamer ganger dweebs... i work hard to pull 1 or 2 away from the lemming trail, often by being at a disadvantage in some manner. yet... because the lemmings won't stray tooooo far from that trail, there will always be a few more lemmings desperate and eager to kill something that isn't immobile and come tearing in to gang me while i'm already working on giving 1 or 2 an exciting time.
i just hope that i can piss people off enough with my taunts to make them say to themselves "by cod, i'm gonna get good enough to shut that idiot shane up on my own merits!"
pipe dream, i know.
:rolleyes:
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I've been over here since May from WB. Leaving an empty arena to a full one was a great change.
Not to say those rare nights when all the old timers were up furballin over the channel and you new every one of them on both sides. The smack floweth. Good time, but rare. One on ones were easy to find, good fights, good times. But an empty arena does not make the juices flow.
My kind of fight is here. Fly for a squad that enjoys the fight as I do. Have a great time. The trick is to find the fight because they're out there.
Some nights you find them, some nights you don't. Had a few good ones lately.
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Some things to think on...
It is one thing to learn about the past; it is another to wallow in it.
Kenneth Auchincloss
Nostalgia is a seductive liar.
George W. Ball
The past always looks better than it was because it isn't here.
Finley Peter Dunne
...and some sage advice from a pop icon...
Say goodbye to the oldies, but goodies, because the good old days weren't always good and tomorrow ain't as bad as it seems.
Billy Joel
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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I liked the game most pre-AW-influx. No offense to the former AW players, I would have come to AH as well, ;)
The game changed from a combat flight sim to a Lemmings invasion game.
And I agree with Wotan, the big map didn't just give room for 300+ players, it gave way for milk running to polish up the overall rank, :eek:
I flew allot in the pre-1.08 versions, now I fly less and less.
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What a lot of whining, you all sound like AW-Dos vets bewailing the influx of AOL dweebs. Over time you've all got exactly what you've whined for and you still don't like it.m (and ain't the CT proof of that!)
The BS over "atmosphere" in the MA is just that - BS. The MA (and AH as a whole) is a lot more friendly and clique free today than it was in the days of "wish it was Warbirds".
As for events: What a load of codswallop. The Axis were outnumbered in Sicily, and we won. The Allies were outnumbered in BoB, and we won.
Guess what? I'm going to win Nieman too, and then you'll have to find another whine.
Nutless rutabagas.
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Originally posted by Seeker
Nutless rutabagas.
Feel the power of the dark side Luke.
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The BS over "atmosphere" in the MA is just that - BS. The MA (and AH as a whole) is a lot more friendly and clique free today than it was in the days of "wish it was Warbirds".
Utter rubbish. I started playing 2 and half years ago and things were much more friendly. Channel 1 was nowhere near as bad then as it was now. The proportion of nutjobs seemed to have risen dramatically - or maybe they are just more vocal - it's hard to tell.
AH has always been very open. From the very first day I played, people were always willing to lend a hand. How an arena can have a clique is beyond me...
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Seem's to me a few people are suffering from what I like to call "MMOG Tunnel-vision".
I've got some serious complaints about Aces High of late. Spit and Lala hordes... suicide JABO/Buffs..... The Pizzacrap map.... Facestudmuffin N1K's... Ganger-lamers.... etc etc... the list goes on. Got to the point I was irritated before my first launch...
I used to be the same way in AW. After awhile I got to where I found the game was more irritating than fun.....
SO I TAKE A BREAK[/size]
It's a great remedy, I figure allot of folks around here ought to give it some thought. If you find you don't like it, but love it...just take a break and find something else for awhile. I haven't launched a plane in AH in close to two weeks (very long time for me over the last 9yrs or so... at least by choice)... and I don't miss it a bit....yet. My "love of the moment" is OpFlash, It's damn fun. I will eventually wake up one day and find my addiction to Aces High is back in full swing and have a GOOD TIME flying and not give a crap about all the irritating little things. I'll get the bug and be in there full time again having the time of my life.
I made a serious complaint to the folks at Kesmai over AW once, stating I was thinking about quitting the game. The reply I got was a suprise... "We'd hate to see you go but we'd rather see you quit than not have fun"....good advice.
One thing about other games... after awhile, "There's always Aces High"... and I'd like to thank HTC and staff for that.
.....take a break, it does wonders.
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Originally posted by Squire
It turns them mostly into low alt furball fighting.
It is how the scoring is set up, guys are just playing the game as designed. It is really just that simple.
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Originally posted by Oedipus
Look what happened to AW (it's shamefull slide into being an RR arcade game and no significant improvement or advancement to it for 12 yrs) and look where it is right now.
Oed
The demise of AW had nothing to do whatsoever with the player base. It had to do with Electronic Arts love muffines and thier tendency to ruin any flight-sim they come into contact with. Electronic Arts HAS (had) the resources to do wonders with AW... they just didn't, because IMO they put greenbacks ahead of "anything" and the console kiddies have more to offer, lots more.
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Originally posted by Oedipus
Look what happened to AW (it's shamefull slide into being an RR arcade game and no significant improvement or advancement to it for 12 yrs) and look where it is right now.
Oed
3 points in one sentence. Two of them wrong. You are 33% correct :).
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CT
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Originally posted by Seeker
What a lot of whining, you all sound like AW-Dos vets bewailing the influx of AOL dweebs. Over time you've all got exactly what you've whined for and you still don't like it.m (and ain't the CT proof of that!)
The BS over "atmosphere" in the MA is just that - BS. The MA (and AH as a whole) is a lot more friendly and clique free today than it was in the days of "wish it was Warbirds".
As for events: What a load of codswallop. The Axis were outnumbered in Sicily, and we won. The Allies were outnumbered in BoB, and we won.
Guess what? I'm going to win Nieman too, and then you'll have to find another whine.
Nutless rutabagas.
Isnt the entire concept of a "nutless popsicle" absurd? I mean...to have one..you dont have the other. And IF you do have both well...thats just wierd.
Maybe its an attempt to point out ones lack of "bravery..manhood extra". In a video game? OMG...THE LITTLE GHOSTY DUDEi s GONNA EAT ME (ie PACMAN, the yellow chopper dude)!!! RUNNNNNN. "Golly-geen your a stinking coward for running from that icecream looking squeak."
xBAT
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one word
CT
Eagler
I don't know Eagler, maybe I've just been unluky but in at least half of the few times I've ventured into the CT, I've encountered exactly the same behaviors. The CT, for me at least, was like the pizza before the pizza arrived. The 109e running to ack over the "German Fleet" from my low Hurricane, and joining a buddy there who was also menaced by a sole Hurrican without an e advantage was my last experience there.
Charon
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[I miss the fact that fights use to actually be spread out.
Fields limits....................... .... (elsewhere called zone limits)
an arena adjustable setting that sets the maximum number of players that can be inflight having spawned from any one field at any one time................
a) limits size and source of uber missions
b) forces stuff to be spread across and behind front lines when arenas are busy.........
c) naturally keeps stuff away from the 32 plane limit
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Originally posted by Charon
I don't know Eagler, maybe I've just been unluky but in at least half of the few times I've ventured into the CT, I've encountered exactly the same behaviors. The CT, for me at least, was like the pizza before the pizza arrived. The 109e running to ack over the "German Fleet" from my low Hurricane, and joining a buddy there who was also menaced by a sole Hurrican without an e advantage was my last experience there.
Charon
i see you met eskimo
:D
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yep... you guys should go to the CT where everyone is touchy feely and..... you never have to worry about crowds.
lazs
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Originally posted by Oedipus
read please. DoK says is so much more eloquently:
http://216.91.192.19/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52984
So who's DoK and why's DoK the ultimate authority on the subject? I'll stand my ground... AW(the future)4 had potential. EA simply refused to do anything with it.
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Originally posted by Oedipus
"so why's DoK the ultimate authority?"
lol. Forget it. I don't want to shatter your fantasy.
So you're right. AW was only beginning to rise to being King of the Hill when cold heartless EA ripped it's young, healthy, vibrant heart right out.
Oed
Nice interpretation :rolleyes: .... I'll go back to my fantasy and you can go massage DoK's backside.
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Originally posted by Tumor
Nice interpretation :rolleyes: .... I'll go back to my fantasy and you can go massage DoK's backside.
Snork! :D
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Originally posted by oboe
This contest seems like a complete disaster to me. It encourages and rewards behaviors most people find offensive - score mongering, flying dweeb planes, vultching, gangbanging, etc. I pity the poor newbs trying to learn the game in such an environment.
Amen, Oboe, which is why I am considering cancelling or putting on hold, my account. The ganging and lack of USN/USAAF A/C representation in the CT is more than I can handle right now. Not to mention the absolute poor-sportedness of these fliers.
I did manage to kill this guy (P-47-25) who was talking trash Over CH 1 to some friends, I guess, about how he loves "pig-stompin'" before he even engaged me. He went down in about 15 seconds.
I guess he won't be talking trach to any more Corsair Pilots.. hehe
Been fun all...see you all at some point in the future
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
Amen, Oboe, which is why I am considering cancelling or putting on hold, my account. The ganging and lack of USN/USAAF A/C representation in the CT is more than I can handle right now. Not to mention the absolute poor-sportedness of these fliers.
I did manage to kill this guy (P-47-25) who was talking trash Over CH 1 to some friends, I guess, about how he loves "pig-stompin'" before he even engaged me. He went down in about 15 seconds.
I guess he won't be talking trach to any more Corsair Pilots.. hehe
Been fun all...see you all at some point in the future
You meant MA right?
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I have to say the one thing that really helps me enjoy AH is large forces of the same type of aircraft.
what i mean is for some reason when i am flying along in my chosen ride, say a p40e and there are 11 or so others in the same aircraft with me.
You then meet 20 or so others all in 109s or 205s or similar types and you have a great big fight.
I have no idea why this is more enjoyable than a huge balls of different planes but i suspect its because it LOOKS and FEELS like the WW2 movies or documentaries and seems to be more real.
I think the flying with a total lack of objectives wihich is common in MA really becomes boring rather quickly.I often log on and look for an area i can make a difference and struggle to find that perfect area.
I then often try to form a mission because alone i cant make an impression but with a large body of aircraft you can swing the tide of a battle.
Unfortunately missions seem to be ignored more than ever in the MA and i often log off because the endless 'take off, fight , get kill then die to overwhelming numbers' and repeat, has become too tedious.The fun seems to have gone.
The desert map(pizza) seems to emphasise this even more.
Theres so many bases that capturing one is more of a small chore in a long line of 'things to do'.
I often log into pizza see huge areas that need to be captured and realise alone im not going to make much of an impression, I then try to make a mission, get no response and log off bored.
This is why im hoping the mission theatre will be the saving grace for me.If i can log into an arena and theres a mission ready to go with a real objective I wont have to sit there thinking about what i should do :) The aircraft will all be the same type and will look exceptionally cool just like the scenarios.
Some of my best moments were in scenarios.Either flying a ju88 with a whole squadron fighting off spitfires and struggling home with badly damaged wings and engines. Or the fantastic hostile shores squadrons of 190s attacking huge formations of TBMs or F4us or lancasters.
There wasnt those moments where you look behind you and see 3 aircraft all with various abilities that just about assure you cant choose any option.Thers 4 of the same types! you can decide to use whatever superior manouver you can to escape.
I often find in MA when im low and trying to escape that i have an LA7, Spit and nik all waiting to pounce.
I cant run, the LA7 will reel you in......
I cant turn , the spirfire will easily beat you....
I cant even HO because 20mms bristle on the nik....
theres no fun in relying on blind luck or hoping one of those 3 are newbies.luck is very fickle :p
I long for the old days of AH myself, I personally think they whole atmosphere/gameplay behaviour changed when the numbers increased substantially.around the time AW closed.It can never come back but maybe HTC can add the mission arena and refresh my interest, I really hope so.
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Attrition as it normally applies to battle is a material process. IE you destroy enough of the enemies personel and material that they no longer can maintain the battle.
In the AH scense Attrition is totaly a moral issue. IE you make the game so unfun for the other side that they cease to play and you win.
This of course only applies to the "reset" game. But if one side can always muster an overwhelming tactical numerical supperiority that can be constantly replaced..what possible success tactic can the other side have?
I feel this unusual form of attrition is a big issue that has crept into the game as it gets bigger. It is far more of an issue now then it was at a 200 person arena.
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Been here since Oct 1999. I remember the old times. Everyone you shot down or shot you down always sent a "
" or ":)", maybe a "Nice Shot".
Progress is progress. I still enjoy the game. I'm in a great squad which make any misgivings, worthwhile.
Yeager and I were chatting about this very subject the other day in the CT.
BTW, where is Wardog?????
Swager
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The ganging and lack of USN/USAAF A/C representation in the CT
Lol!! I hope you're joking!:D There's usually atleast one US fighter in every setup- even if there was none historically but just to add "variety" to the setup.
Here's the allies planes for the last 4 setups-
This week
F6F, SBD, TBM, P-47D-11 & D-25, P-38L, P-40E, Boston-III, A-20
Week before
P40E ,IL2, LA5, Yak - both models, Bost II, B26, A20
Week before that
P40E,Huricane MK I,Boston,
Week before that
F6f5, TBM, SBD, FM2
US aircraft are anything but under represnted in the CT.
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I know change the MA to two sides only. That way people have to spread out and you should not have the gang bangs so much; at least in theory. :p
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You guys are right, but then again your wrong.
Yes the game has a very different flavor now than it did when we started this whole thing. I can still remember the first couple of days of open beta, when we were like kids on Christmas morning. LOOK! at the bright shiney new toys.
But we as players are different as well. We've played hundreds, thousands, and I bet in some cases, hundreds of thousands of hours. We get jaded. We get burned out. We leave and we come back. You can only do the same thing, so many times, before it loses its appeal.
It was the same for me when I started AW back in late 94/early 95. It was the same for me when I moved to WB's just as 0.99 was ending. It was the same for me and then when I came here when open beta started. But its almost 2003. And after 7-8 years of what is basically the same genre of online combat, its hard to get excited about much anymore. The same thing happened to me with online roleplaying games. LOK, Ultima Online, Everquest, and the many others that have followed them. I don't think I've played one of those types of games in a year now.
Yes, the horde/gangbang/suicider mentality of today is tiresome. The slow withdraw from the community of the Developers/Producer (who use to communicate daily with us). The ever increasing development cycle and what seems like decreasing content per update as well. But the past had its problems as well. But the bigest change is US !!!. You can never regain your virginity.
Me? I can't hardly find the will to even log in the last 6 months. I read the boards during my breaks at work, talk with my squaddies by email. But I don't hardly fly at all anymore, or play much of any game.
But we'll always have our memories of the Glory Days!! :)
Salute My Friends !
PS: Tumor, AW's demise basically started right after AW3 was released on Gamestorm. After that it was a corprate decision to minimize costs with very little development, and to maximize profits by increasing player numbers, without regard to its effect on the community and the "flavor" fo the game itself.
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Verm makes a good point. I think I'm at that burnout stage myself. I used to have a cheery optimistic online persona. Now I'm a grumpy tired old snot. ;)
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Combat Theater :)
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hahem ...
What you are saying Verm is that you feel like a dinausor ?
Running away ... :p
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Originally posted by Eagler
Combat Theater :)
Unfortunately, my visits to CT been quite worse than MA in almost every measure (especially in the ganging department).
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Originally posted by Turbot
Unfortunately, my visits to CT been quite worse than MA in almost every measure (especially in the ganging department).
my advice would be to wait for company or pick ur battles more carefully - 9 to 10 pm on weeknites, even later on weekends - CT can't be beat - that is unless you NEED 20 countrymen surrounding you to get a kill :)
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Some guys flying in a squad in there "...but, but we are a squad we have to fly together, etc etc etc...." like that makes it OK or something. (Quite a rude bunch too - no thanks, been there done that.)
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Originally posted by thrila
Lol!! I hope you're joking!:D There's usually atleast one US fighter in every setup- even if there was none historically but just to add "variety" to the setup.
Here's the allies planes for the last 4 setups-
This week
F6F, SBD, TBM, P-47D-11 & D-25, P-38L, P-40E, Boston-III, A-20
Week before
P40E ,IL2, LA5, Yak - both models, Bost II, B26, A20
Week before that
P40E,Huricane MK I,Boston,
Week before that
F6f5, TBM, SBD, FM2
US aircraft are anything but under represnted in the CT.
I stand corrected, and thanks for the follow-up.
perhaps I was only referring to F4U-s and PJs and Ponies....it SEEMED to me I have been flying an awful lot of Hurri2c's or other's each squad night for the past several weeks I was able to attend. I guess I missed the good weeks.; In any event, I am burned out, and jaded. That's not my idea of RnR from work...so I'm on an extended hiatus...
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Originally posted by Shane
exactly.
i just hope that i can piss people off enough with my taunts to make them say to themselves "by cod, i'm gonna get good enough to shut that idiot shane up on my own merits!"
pipe dream, i know.
:rolleyes:
Exactly, I also had to taunt people into a 1-1...and that's not me, I didn't like what I had to do to get a decent fight.
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Hell... Straffo I AM a Dinosaur ! ;)
I'll be in touch soon about that Mirage III information. I've been busy with my job lately.
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Originally posted by Vermillion
I've been busy with my job lately.
Your priorities are boviously outta whack :).
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feel free to mail me Verm :)
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Wotan - welcome to the nightmare. :)
AW went through *exactly* the same growing pains but it didn't have the time (or the will) to find a solution. I think I heard it best expressed that "The landgrab should be a *vehicle* to promote Air Combat as opposed to the be all end all of the game."
However correct the above statement may be, the problem remains that a whole lotta players "like" the stratego land-grab and that can't be ignored either, it puts fannies in the seats.
First thing HTC could do is find a way to not reward abberant behavior like suicide missions. Of course there has to be a way to differentiate a "suicide" run as opposed to lousy planning. :)
Now, to really take a page out of an old musty book.....
The old AW1 had some maps where only the center of the map had capturable bases. As opposed to land grabbing the *entire* map, the objective of a team was to capture and hold this central area. Other bases could be "closed" but not taken. Attacking the strat targets of the team that held the middle would weaken thier means to continue to hold the middle. Perhaps a bigger version of a map like that, with the "objective" being for a country to hold that area for 12 hours straight to force a reset, could work out. I really dunno. It's one thing to "win the war" but that's a finite point in time. Capturing and HOLDING turf (over time) is a slightly different game. The map would have to be designed so that the team currently owning the middle was "spread a little thin" by virtue of having to allocate resources to maintain the controll. If it takes 1/2 your side to maintain controll, you have less people available to defend your strat - yada yada.
(I will editorialise a sec and say that this is not an unrealistic model for a "war game". IE in many wars the objective isn't to drive your opponent into the sea, it's merely to assert (and maintain) controll over a "disputed area". There exists an understanding that the countries themselves will continue to exist.)
What I do know is that the problem was not solved as AW grew bigger. The Big Pac map was good - but it also got knicknamed the "Big Pork" - because the land grab, (and the abberant player behavior a total land grab spawns) took center stage. There was constant friction between the "pure ACM dweebs - and the "stratego wannabe's". Not at all unlike what's going on in the MA now except that I believe that there *may* be a solution if HTC is willing to hunt for it. As I said before, AW lacked the time (or the will) to ever solve this issue - so theres no history to tap.
The trick will be, to both design a map, and gameplay rules, to thwart people from merely "gaming the game" to achieve an objective, yet providing an objective that somehow rewards good ACM over silly gameism.
It's still virgin turf..............
-W
(PS: Allowing players to perma-squelch individuals on channel 1 would stop a lot of the whining about silly loudouths)
Originally posted by Wotan
I never viewed AH as something that can be "won". Resets always happened but the base capture seemed a side show to the a2a war. Now we have whole groups of folks who only play the land grab reset game. They take the paths of least resistance whether it be undefended fields or suicide runs.
People wonder why ostwinds get the majority of the kills in ah. Its because everyone is busy killing themselves in the great land grab going for that reset.
Folks would rather die to ack or auger before fighting. [/B]
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Combat Theater
(CT marketing director :))
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Originally posted by Ratbo
- because the land grab, (and the abberant player behavior a total land grab spawns) took center stage. There was constant friction between the "pure ACM dweebs - and the "stratego wannabe's".
Ya know... I never really saw it that way. I mean there was allotta crap going on but I just never saw it get that (this) bad in AW. Of course.... the last 9mo or so AW was alive I was almost never there, did it degenerate THAT bad in those last months?? I really don't know.
VERM... sent you and email.
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AH is a game for enjoyment I don't take it serious I don't care who is better than me... personaly I find 250+ arenas very boring I would like to see the community grow to 5k online 24/7. Most of the hard core players are very good, even the medium player is better than most... this presents a problem for new players who want to experience immediate success.
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Come on.....you must have heard the term "Big Pork" and reference to the "Pork and auger dweebs" ?? Both were born out of the same issues Wotan adressed. I don't think it was the last months - it was when the Big Pac was at it's peak. The "fightertown atoll" was the attempted solution - more of a band-aid.
-W
Originally posted by Tumor
Ya know... I never really saw it that way. I mean there was allotta crap going on but I just never saw it get that (this) bad in AW. Of course.... the last 9mo or so AW was alive I was almost never there, did it degenerate THAT bad in those last months?? I really don't know.
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Originally posted by Ratbo
The old AW1 had some maps where only the center of the map had capturable bases. As opposed to land grabbing the *entire* map, the objective of a team was to capture and hold this central area. Other bases could be "closed" but not taken
This produced a problem in game play often referred to as the "disney land" effect......... 2 sides at the end of one of the rivers battling it out whilst a third far away watched on.......... or flew for 40 mins to get to the action
The Big Pac map was good - but it also got knicknamed the "Big Pork" - because the land grab,
Big pork came from the fact that a player could (in AW3)carry out a suicide raid on an enemy fuel silo and "pork" the quality of fuel such that its octane level was reduced......and all players upping (with the exception of the 109F) would fly poor performance planes.......... hence land grabbers would pork fuel of any field they intended to capture........this was later resolved.
AW lacked the time (or the will) to ever solve this issue -
Infact it lacked the tools...........making a terrain was a massive job...........
The trick will be, to both design a map, and gameplay rules, to thwart people from merely "gaming the game" to achieve an objective, yet providing an objective that somehow rewards good ACM over silly gameism.
agreed...........in the MA balance is about game play and creating conditions for optimal combat.......... I believe that HTC are doing just that..........they have the tools to do it.........they can adjust stuff............try stuff.......... what they have said they will try next seems very logical.........
Be sure there is a large group of players who are very much into winning the land grab.........they enjoy it ...............just go to the MA and watch...........
HTC's challenge is to make something for every one without splitting stuff up............ the gap between RR & FR was a serious problem for AW............ AW also had a fighter only arena which after an initial spell became just what the duelling arena is here.........
I do believe the MA seriously needs a field limit (AW's zone limit) to spread stuff out more, reduce mass raids from one single field etc etc
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Originally posted by Oedipus
Ratbo for having an honest to God good memory and for not donning those rose color spectacles like so many of your friends have.
Oed
So close, but so far away. Most of those you called wearing "rosed colored glasses" abhor the kind of behaviour AH aproves of by way of gameplay I.e. the pork and auger dweebs, the gangbangs, the generalisimos, the ever eternal landgrab. All products of AH's stated gameplay goal of "winning the war."
The flaws in the system were there like in AW. The recent (not so recent anymore) influx only brought to light those flaws. In fact in put them on the front page. HTC's advantage is that they are willing to work on resolving those issues (I hope they can).
So, while your and your high horse put blame on the current state of the game on exAWers you are wrong. Way before most of the "rose colored glasses" crowd came over, most of them had brought to light here and elsewhere the flaws in the system.
And then, you get your nickers in a bunch when Shane starts whacking those who exhacerbate the kind of behaviour you so much detest. You are full of contradictions Oed. But dont let that stop you from blabbering 'bout.
Good day.
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Originally posted by Oedipus
You, Shane, Tumor and Grizzly are vBB facestudmuffinging, lamer gangbanger no skill dweebs and you all suck.
(that last is just doing my part to be a vBB "Shane")
Oed
Yer learning. Soon you'll be one with the force.
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I miss that field A27 (I believe?) in the beta terrain... rolling in at 150 mph onto the field in tanks! :)
Arena was more fun with 200 or less. Of course, the times I've had a chance to fly (early Sat. mornings) thats what the numbers have roughly been running.
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I think things really improved once all those cool AW pilots arrived.
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Originally posted by Tilt
This produced a problem in game play often referred to as the "disney land" effect......... 2 sides at the end of one of the rivers battling it out whilst a third far away watched on.......... or flew for 40 mins to get to the action
Reply:
If the stated "objective" was to capture and hold the center atoll for X amount of hours to get a reset - it would tend to concentrate the fighting more toward the middle. (I'd hope)
Tilt:
Big pork came from the fact that a player could (in AW3)carry out a suicide raid on an enemy fuel silo and "pork" the quality of fuel such that its octane level was reduced......and all players upping (with the exception of the 109F) would fly poor performance planes.......... hence land grabbers would pork fuel of any field they intended to capture........this was later resolved.
Reply:
And now the land grabbers pork and auger because it's faster that way to capture bases. Only the fuel motivation was cured in AW. Pork and auger continued there (and here) because it's a more efficiant way to deliver more eggs. That's motivation enough. (and the cure is elusive).
Tilt:
Infact it lacked the tools...........making a terrain was a massive job...........
Reply:
Therefore it lacked the time - as I said. :)
Tilt:
agreed...........in the MA balance is about game play and creating conditions for optimal combat.......... I believe that HTC are doing just that..........they have the tools to do it.........they can adjust stuff............try stuff.......... what they have said they will try next seems very logical.........
Reply:
And I think over time they will indeed find answers. I just threw out one idea to "change motivation". There could be a dozen answers.
Tilt:
Be sure there is a large group of players who are very much into winning the land grab.........they enjoy it ...............just go to the MA and watch...........
Reply:
I *know* they enjoy it - I *personally* enjoy it. But I always RTB'd despite a motivation to auger - just because I'm the kinda guy I am. When I got sick of it all - I gravitated to exclusively scenario play. I still think you can have a "war" and a "land grab" and somehow eliminate abberant behavior.
Tilt:
HTC's challenge is to make something for every one without splitting stuff up............ the gap between RR & FR was a serious problem for AW............ AW also had a fighter only arena which after an initial spell became just what the duelling arena is here.........
Reply:
Exactly, Splitting up the community does no one any good. HTC has a challange indeed - I think they're up to it. :)
Tilt:
I do believe the MA seriously needs a field limit (AW's zone limit) to spread stuff out more, reduce mass raids from one single field etc etc
Reply:
And there's another good idea. Again. the trick is to limit "strange behavior" without ruining it for the stratego types. Not easy to do.
-W
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Originally posted by midnight Target
I think things really improved once all those cool AW pilots arrived.
Agreed! My K/D ratio improved! ;)
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Feild limits was a great Air Warrior feature...And my K/D ratio drastically improved when I came here.