Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Curval on December 10, 2002, 01:18:56 PM
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At lunch yesterday a client and I were chatting about his African operations. He was discussing the possibility of expanding into another African country which has now calmed down after many years of civil war. I asked him about whether he would feel safe there..and he shrugged and said "As safe as anywhere else in Africa." He then explained how crime is different in Africa as opposed to the US or the UK. He said that in western countries, when someone puts a gun to your head you have a level of comfort that the guy "probably" won't kill you if you do as he/she says and hand over the money. In Africa you cannot rely on this assumption...they simply don't care if they pull the trigger or not.
One of the other guys at the table made a comment that there are some very good car security features now that might help prevent a hold-up...apparently the criminals over there ambush cars more often than anything else...generally as you are leaving home. (The logic on this is that you would least expect it near the comfort of your house.) The features he was talking about were the ones designed to prevent a car-jacker from getting into the car....locks etc.
The guy from Africa then said, "The kind of security features you are talking about, short of bullet-proof glass on the windows, is the kind of security system that gets you killed. If you don't do what they say immediately they will open fire! Hell, I still have a bullet in my leg."
I turned to him with a look of shock on my face...and he nodded. Three guys with automatic weapons attempted to rob the guy as he was on his way to work with two friends. He was in the back-seat. One of the two friends took too long stopping or something and all three gunmen opened fire. His two friends died in a hail of bullets...the doctors counted 8 chest hits on one of them. One bullet hit my client in the leg after passing through the front seat and is apparently still there, embedded in the muscle...the doctors won't remove it as they are concerned about damaging the muscle and causing permanent damage. I asked if he was worried about lead poisonoing..he just shrugged.
Amazing.
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South Africa, I suppose? Their crime rate makes the US look like Sweden. :)
ra
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I agree, parts of Africa are totally out of control.
I'm most familure with Zimbabwe. A buddy of mine, Tim Bradshaw, is a close friend of wildlife artist Craig Bone, who lives there. My buddy sells his paintings, and he has spents months there as Bone's guest.
The government actually incites the blacks to take over white ranches and farms by force. You don't go anywhere without being armed. Its a lawless place. Bone has a lot of stories about the stuff that goes on there...
For info on his paintings....
Here (http://www.africanseasons.com/)
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Originally posted by ra
South Africa, I suppose? Their crime rate makes the US look like Sweden. :)
ra
Nope...another one, but I won't say which as it could identify my client.
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Curval: ...how crime is different in Africa as opposed to the US or the UK. He said that in western countries, when someone puts a gun to your head you have a level of comfort that the guy "probably" won't kill you if you do as he/she says and hand over the money. In Africa you cannot rely on this assumption...they simply don't care if they pull the trigger or not.
I would like to disagree with such assesment and point out that some places in US are very similar to what he describes when it comes to sensless killing and other things, but I cannot yet think of a way to express it that would not sound racist to some of the audience...
miko
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A friend of mine is the adventure type if you know what I mean. He was a paratrooper in the military, he dives as often as he can, not the normal dives though, noo as deep as possible, and preferably around sharks, now lately he has started with adventure racing, you know the kind you see on Discovery channel...echo challenge or whatever the most famous one is called.
Anyway, I met this guy in lawschool, and a couple of years ago while we were still in school he started with various adventure travels. Two years ago he skied from Canada to the north pole (that is kinda cool in more ways than one), and his girlfriend flew out there to meet him (russian helicopter) and they got engaged there on the north pool (now that is really cool).
ANYWAY, back in lawschool, one summer he and a friend of his decided to go backpacking in Africa. He decided to take a break from the studies, and he and his friend decided to walk from Cape Town up to Kenya (yeah, he isnt really right in the head my friend :) )
So they get all the gear they need for the walk, they fly down to Cape Town and they get a room in a really first class hotel. Not some cheapo place in the slums, no, a really first class hotel in a really classy area. Anyway, my friend and his friend have been making the final preparations for the trip. The plan is to take the bus to the town limit and start walking from there. They have been checking the closest bus stop to see when the morning bus departs, and they are walking back to the hotel (the really nice one in the really classy neighbourhood) when from an alley 10-15 locals come running, and quicly surround my friend and his friend.
They dont say much, one of them gestures towards the watches and mobile phones etc. Now this is happening around 1800 local time, in the middle of the street in a "good" neighbourhood. When my friend and his friend has dropped their wallets and stuff, one of the bandits starts to look around, then he pulls out this machete, and a couple of other bandits pull out some knives. My friend and his friend panics, and decides to make a dash for it, so they both run for their lifes, and manages to get away from the bandits.
They make it to the hotel which is like 50 meters away. They call the cops, and some south african detective comes to the hotel. He tells them how lucky they are to be alive, that there had been something like 15 tourists killed in the last month etc etc. My friend tells him about their plans to walk across South Africa to Kenya and the detective looks at him as if he was mongolid. He said something like, "uh, you guys would be dead within a couple of hours." So my friend and his friend decided to skip walking across South Africa, and decided to start at the border to Botswana instead.
Anyway, he has lots of great stories from that trip.
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miko... I got no problem with the truth... our "african amercian" gun crime is over 40% of all gun crime in America. Makes no difference what the cause is... I certainly don't want to be disarmed in the face of it.
lazs
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Originally posted by miko2d
I would like to disagree with such assesment and point out that some places in US are very similar to what he describes when it comes to sensless killing and other things, but I cannot yet think of a way to express it that would not sound racist to some of the audience...
miko
Note the quotes around "probably"....I did so because i knew someone would bring up your point.
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Originally posted by lazs2
miko... I got no problem with the truth... our "african amercian" gun crime is over 40% of all gun crime in America. Makes no difference what the cause is... I certainly don't want to be disarmed in the face of it.
lazs
Careful what you call truth.
Factor in economics and race makes no difference.
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It took 16 minutes before the PC police was in place.
Now let the bashings begin.
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LOL, if you call my post "PC Police" then you are too sensitive my friend. Having guilty thoughts about Halle Barry or something?
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At this time I would like to state that it wasn't my intention to start a BBS race-war, or comment on gun-control (or lack thereof) in the US. I was just relating an interesting conversation.
Carry on.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
LOL, if you call my post "PC Police" then you are too sensitive my friend. Having guilty thoughts about Halle Barry or something?
The only one who should be feeling guilty about Halle Barry is Halle Barry. That acceptance speech was the worst pathetic drivle I have ever seen.
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MT... I have no problem with the truth. I can find no figures for gun crime based on income. I can find the figures based on race. I would be interested in seeing a breakdown based on income if you have one. Point is... you have to call a spade a spade (so to speak). To ignore the data is to complicate the problem and slow the solution.
In any case.... I am not black nor low income... I don't see why my gun rights should be infringed because of the actions of either small group.
Tell ya what.... I will continue to work on keeping my/our gun rights and you can work on getting poor black people to behave themselves and then everyone will be relatively happy.
lazs
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Originally posted by Hortlund
The only one who should be feeling guilty about Halle Barry is Halle Barry. That acceptance speech was the worst pathetic drivle I have ever seen.
Oh Yea!!??
I agree.... stupid, but beautiful.
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yeah... MT... kinda like the whole liberal view on things eh?
Remind me to check in on ya in about 10years... you're a fairly bright lad.. can't see ya not getting it much longer.
lazs
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midnight Target: Factor in economics and race makes no difference.
Unless race determines economics as well as violent tendencies. You cannot assign cause and effect arbitrarily.
Being poor does not make you noticeably more dumb or senslessly violent.
Being dumb makes you much more likely to be both poor and senslessly violent.
miko
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Originally posted by lazs2
yeah... MT... kinda like the whole liberal view on things eh?
Remind me to check in on ya in about 10years... you're a fairly bright lad.. can't see ya not getting it much longer.
lazs
Funny Lazs, maybe when you're my age you will get it.
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Originally posted by miko2d
--snip---. You cannot assign cause and effect arbitrarily. ---snip---
miko
So it would be wrong to call it "African American Gun Crime" wouldn't it. The descriptive adjective could read "Poor American" or "Disenfranchised American" or .. you fill in the blank.
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I suscribe to a BBS for hunting and there are many members who hunt in Africa. One of them posted this story:
From News 24 (http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,1113,2-7-1442_1290196,00.html) in South Africa.
26/NOV/2002 22:22 - (SA)
Raped tourist: I was paraded as 'white flesh'
Sonette Lombaard
Pretoria - For more than 14 hours a young British tourist was hauled from one shebeen to the other and shown off as "white flesh", before being raped by one of the kidnappers who was "dirty and revolting and smelled horribly of beer".
Julie Stevens (29) told the British newspaper The Mail on Sunday about her and her friend Tinus Opperman's (25) nightmare experience earlier this month when five men overpowered them at the scenic Long Tom pass in Mpumalanga.
They were held for 14 hours, during which Opperman was stabbed with a knife and she was beaten and raped.
When a Mozambican driver stopped to help them after the drunk kidnappers had overturned the car in which they were travelling, he was shot dead.
Stevens is still recovering in Mpumalanga, but decided to tell her story to "get back" at the criminals. She will only know in three months' time if the antiretrovirals she took did protect her against HIV.
Stevens worked in a Newport office in southern Wales before she and Opperman decided to visit South Africa for a working holiday. She was very excited about it.
They were staying with Opperman's parents in Sabie and went for a drive to a look-out post in the scenic Long Tom pass.
"I got out first and stood at the edge looking out over the mountains. Suddenly five men appeared from behind the rocks. They pointed a gun at Tinus, demanded money and took our sunglasses and watches," she recalled.
Opperman realised they were in grave danger and hoped the attackers would settle for the car. But the men tied their hands behind their backs with a long leather belt. When other vehicles drove past, the couple was pushed over the side so that they would not be seen.
When the motorists had passed, the couple were hauled up and pushed into the vehicle and forced to crouch behind the front seats.
The attackers raced from one petrol station to another where the men tried to draw money with the couple's credit cards.
The men were disorganised. They cursed and yelled and were furious because they were unable to draw money. They kept the gun against Opperman's head, saying "they had murdered in the past, and they would do so again".
Stevens kept praying quietly that she would not be killed or raped. Throughout the night they were driven from one shebeen to the other in various townships, where they were shown off as "white flesh" to the attackers' friends and family.
Their pleas for help fell on deaf ears.
The attackers were drinking heavily. At one shebeen they left Stevens and Opperman in the car. After a while one of them returned and drove to a deserted alley.
"I then knew I was going to be raped."
She was crying when he pulled her onto the backseat. When she resisted, he hit her.
"He was dirty and revolting and smelled horribly of beer. It was quickly over. I passed out."
He drove back to the shebeen, where he again left them in the car.
But he returned to rape her a second time.
By that time she had managed to free one hand. She hit him with a beer bottle. It enraged him, and he hit her again, this time much harder.
After a while the four others drunkenly returned to the car and they drove off along the road between Badplaas and Barberton. The driver barely managed to keep the vehicle on the road.
At 04:30 the car overturned and landed on its roof in a ditch. Opperman was hurled through the window, cutting his back. He later had to receive 100 stitches. Stevens was also hurled out of the car by the impact.
A passer-by stopped and approached. Stevens whispered a warning that he should leave because the men were armed. She and Opperman managed to run away.
They heard a shot and realised that they had shot the man, killing him in an attempt to rob him of his vehicle.
Stevens said she was sharing her story because she hoped it would make her feel less isolated, not just another statistic.
She said she didn't want to hate South Africa or black people, because "there are reasons why people become hardened criminals.
"We were in the wrong place at the wrong time. I thank God that we are alive".
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Originally posted by midnight Target
So it would be wrong to call it "African American Gun Crime" wouldn't it. The descriptive adjective could read "Poor American" or "Disenfranchised American" or .. you fill in the blank.
Are there black americans committing crimes at all MT? Or is that just one big racist lie?
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It takes a great stretch of the imagination to compare gang violence in the U.S. to tribal warfare in Africa. One is an order of magnitude, or two, greater than the other.
Shuckins
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Are there black americans committing crimes at all MT? Or is that just one big racist lie?
Did I say there weren't?
Gang warfare has existed in American Cities since the dawn of the industrial revolution, maybe even before. Gangs have been Irish, Italian, Jewish, Puerto Rican, Skin Head, Black, Jamaican, etc.
They tend to be made up of the poorest people at the time. Blacks happen to be the poorest today, with Hispanics a close second. I wonder where the crime rates will be highest?
Saying we have an African American crime problem today is no different than saying there was an Irish crime problem in the 1910's, or an Italian crime problem in the 1920's, or a Jewish crime problem in the 1930's.
We had a crime problem with the poor, and still do. Assigning a racial descriptor on the issue as a whole does no one any good and tends to focus the blame onto a large group of people who are mostly good and law abiding.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Did I say there weren't?
Well, to be perfectly honest it looked as if you were trying to. With the "it is wrong to call it african american gun crime, instead you should say poor american gun crimes"-ramblings I mean.
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Worked with a guy from South Africa briefly this past summer.. he told stories of kids running around with AK's(his words). They didn't always have any ammo, but you never knew..
From what he told me, mercenary types are often hired to hunt these kids down.. sounded like it wasn't a case of dead or alive either... just dead...
SKurj
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Curval you have interesting clients, what kind of business are you in?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Curval you have interesting clients, what kind of business are you in?
I manage their businesses and advise on the structure of their companies. I also do the accounting work and liase with auditors etc.
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Originally posted by Curval
I manage their businesses and advise on the structure of their companies. I also do the accounting work and liase with auditors etc.
Sound like a cover story for a double-0 agent! :eek:
Let me guess when in Russia you're a "Cultural Liason".
I'm on to you spy boy, living in and visiting exotic locations indeed. "Clients" with strange bullet wounds??
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Sound like a cover story for a double-0 agent! :eek:
LOL..you have me confused with Animal.
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The criminals in africa are nuts compared to Western civilized nations. Uneducated, poor, and unwilling to abide by the law, the only real way to get rid of the criminals is to kill them.
Remember when the U.S. stopped the famine in Somalia? And how all the food shipments kept getting hijacked? Then when Army Rangers started engaging and 'neutralizing' the warlord members who were hijacking the food shipments, thousands of somalis began shooting at the Rangers.
Africa can be a rough place.
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MT.. I might even be older thatn you.. If not then... there probly isn't much help for you.
as for the crime figures... over 40% of gun homicides are black on black or black perps.. this is not racist and it is a valid statistic... It also means that if you took the black element out of the U.S. homicide rate then you would have rates that were very comparable to the british ones... or....
are you saying that if you removed all blacks from the U.S. that the poor white and other ethnicities would take up the slack so far as homicides? I don't think you can say that. I do think it is a black problem for whatever reasons and to ignore the fact is to help no one.
I didn't do ther math but if y0u are saying that it is an economic problem unrelated to race then I think you are way off... In order for 18% of the population to commit 40% (some say closer to 50% if you factor in the unknowns) of the homicides then you would have a huge group of poor blacks that were all very poor. What percentage of poor whites commit homicides? I have heard that there is no correlation between economics and homicide for whites. I bet poor whites commit less murders than middle class whites.
lazs
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Here are some other numbers:
Unemployment - 5.7%
Black Unemployment - 9.8%
There are also significant gaps between white and black workers when it comes to wages. According to Economic Policy Institute's 1998 "State of Working America," the 1997 hourly wage for white women was $10.02, compared to $8.49 for African-American women. The gap's worse than in 1989, when the white female wage was $9.84, while the black female wage was $8.76. College-educated African-American women saw their wages drop 3.2 percent in the last five years, while white women who were college graduates saw their wages grow by 4.4 percent.
White men earned $18.20 an hour in 1997, compared to $12.92 for African-American men. Overall, men saw their wage levels drop between 1989 to 1997, with the wages of African-American men dropping more precipitously. But among college-educated men, there was slight wage growth, with black men's wages growing twice as rapidly as white men's from 1989 to 1997. The gap remains among college graduates, though, with white men earning $21.45 to the $16.53 that black men earn. Further, wage growth among white men was far more pronounced than that of black men in the past five years, when white men's wages grew by 2.5 percent, and black men's by just 0.1 percent.
The point is, there are other reasons to explain the crime rates. It is NOT a genetic problem with a whole race of people, but a problem developed through years of being treated poorly and the degradation of the black family unit. No doubt there is high crime in Black eighborhoods, just don't tell me its due to skin color.
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Saw a documentary about a Johannesburg SWAT team.
Relaxed, laid back types. Dinnae wear all the cool black gear the US SWAT teams did.
However, they see much, much more action. The film crew stayed a week, during which there were several shoot outs.
Gangs were carjacking, using AK-74s and usually killing the driver and passenger, often seemingly for fun.
They responded to one of these - there was a big shootout and three carjackers were killed. Scary to see the disorganized murderers run like hares while the SWAT team did their best to protect bystanders while at the same time kill the murderers. Several were killed.
US SWAT teams service seemed like a picknick compared to what these guys had to face - each day :/
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Careful what you call truth.
Factor in economics and race makes no difference.
That statement is incorrect....modify it to read "less difference" and I'll buy it.
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Originally posted by Rude
That statement is incorrect....modify it to read "less difference" and I'll buy it.
If you mean that there are other factors besides economics I agree, my statement was simplistic in that regard.
If you mean that race (genetics of a race of people) has a part to play in this, then nope, can't go there.
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MT... I don't see anything in your numbers that would explain the huge difference in homicide rates between the races. I don't believe that being poor makes youi a murderer in any case.. I don't believe it makes other races murder. No... It has to be something else... economics can't be the major factor. More murders are commited by the middle class in other races and.... I bet that a lot of the black homicides are committed by blacks with far higher than average incomes even if they don't declare said income to the IRS.
to simply ignore such a huge difference is like saying that whites are every bit as good athletes and that some sort of economic situation keeps em from doing better... I don't buy it... It may be despair from living in a country that they feel like outsiders in ... who knows? It may even be a racial trait like more testosterone... I don't really care what the reason is but I certainly won't accept your glib lefty PC explanation.
What do you think the main cause is and why?
lazs
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midnight Target: So it would be wrong to call it "African American Gun Crime" wouldn't it. The descriptive adjective could read "Poor American" or "Disenfranchised American" or .. you fill in the blank.
Absolutely - saying that without clarifications would imply that AAs are somehow more "evil" than other races - and there are no indications that "moral values" are genetically encoded. Actually, temperament like impulse control or level of aggressivness is genetically determined to a high degree but not nearly enough to account for huge discrepancy of crime rates.
But saying "Poor" or "Disenfranchised" is also very wrong as those are mostly secondary effects of other factors and when everything else is being held equal, being poor has little influence on antisocial behavior.
What has a huge effect on antisocial behavior is level of intelligence. Less intelligent people are more likely to be antisocial as well as poor, "disenfranchised", etc. - for obvious reasons. And we are not talking about corellation here but easily understood causal relationsip.
Since human races noticeably differ in distribution of intelligence (15+ IQ points), realising that and coming up with practical explanations and solutions would dispell a lot of rasist stereotypes.
Saying we have an African American crime problem today is no different than saying there was an Irish crime problem in the 1910's, or an Italian crime problem in the 1920's, or a Jewish crime problem in the 1930's.
It is very different. The irish, italian and jewish organised crime was highly publicised, but the numbers and character of crime were much different than what is going on in black communities now. Those groups were marginalised by discrimination, not inborn lack of abilities. The former can be remedied.
lazs2: I have heard that there is no correlation between economics and homicide for whites.
Thatd depends wether intelligence was factored out. Blackd do not really differ from whites or other races in that respect though the total effect can be aggravated by concentration.
It is NOT a genetic problem with a whole race of people...
Of course it is. And it explains matters much better. So many groups were discriminated against in US - practically every single one besides WASPs. So many countries experience problems - but nowhere similar to Africa.
miko
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Ok... factor intelegence. I haven't seen those figures but it would have to come up with some kind of profile like... "people with x IQ or lower and X yearly income have X amount of homicides per 100,000 regardless of race. I don't think that will do it... I think blacks will still come out at the very top of the charts. Besides.... how do you regulate intelegence?
lazs
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Cripes, enough popsicle footing around. Who here thinks the problems are caused by the genetics that make them black people?
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Originally posted by lazs2
Ok... factor intelegence.
Besides.... how do you regulate intelegence?
lazs
heh
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IQ tests are racially biased too.
Those groups were marginalised by discrimination, not inborn lack of abilities. The former can be remedied.
Miko, that is pseudo intellectual crap. I don't understand how anyone with the brains you seem to possess can still feel this way. So either you are trolling, or I was wrong in my assessment of you. Do you think that Blacks have NOT been marginalized by discrimination?
Lazs - What do you think the main cause is and why?
Not sure Lazs, maybe anger, frustration, the assurance that they will certainly get a raw deal so "why not". The degradation of the family through poor male role modeling. But all of those things are really symptoms aren't they? How exactly would you react if you knew you were not going to be treated fairly in most areas of life?
Or maybe the numbers you quote are just not indicitive of the facts. Here is an interesting read:
Black Crime (http://www.peace.ca/truthaboutblackcrime.htm)
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I dont know why you guys bother.
I would love to see miko, lazs and some others have a discussion with some professors I have met.
Some of the brightest minds in the fields of genetics, psychology, and sociology would laugh by reading the posts these people make :)
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I'm affraid I have to ignore all your arguements from now on Animal, as you have an inborn lack of ablilities.
This actually becomes obvious when you are compare your life with a random white guy...let's say...lazs.
Animal:
student pilot - check
scuba diver - check
well versed in philosophy, literatue, current events - check
hottie girlfriend - check
dad's corvet - ?
Lazs:
silly servant - check
shoots cans - check
hasn't read a paper in 30 years - check
bitterly devorced- check
tractor - ?
I think this shows Animals inadequacy compared to a white guy.
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in college one of my best friends was a s.a. ex commando. he was in some war outside southafrica using all american ammo grenades anti tank stuff. after the war he had to walk/hitch home as his govt was done with him . soldier practice had expected deaths somthing like 6% didnt make it as in live.
he got home and they drafted him for the civil police . the same body i think you saw. used all military hardwar and had a 6 month life expectancy at the time . aparthide was ending .
he opted for graduate school. name was johan betal. one of the coolest guys i ever new . had war stories that would curl your toes.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
I'm affraid I have to ignore all your arguements from now on Animal, as you have an inborn lack of ablilities.
This actually becomes obvious when you are compare your life with a random white guy...let's say...lazs.
Animal:
student pilot - check
scuba diver - check
well versed in philosophy, literatue, current events - check
hottie girlfriend - check
dad's corvet - ?
Lazs:
silly servant - check
shoots cans - check
hasn't read a paper in 30 years - check
bitterly devorced- check
tractor - ?
I think this shows Animals inadequacy compared to a white guy.
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAROOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOO
RACIST PERSONAL ATTACK!!!
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAROOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOO
RACIST PERSONAL ATTACK!!!
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAROOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOO
BAN HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:D
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Originally posted by SKurj
he told stories of kids running around with AK's(his words). They didn't always have any ammo, but you never knew..
I can assure you, if they were running around with me, we were never short of ammo!
-SW
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hmm... seems that it is not intelegence since... the brightest proffessors are black... soo... back to square one. Not economics and not intelegence.
MT votes for anger and frustration or... the way those are handled?
I wouldn't want to be in a place where I was, or even felt that I was being dicriminated against.. there was a time when I reveled in it but not anymore. I really can see how that would lead to anger and violence but... again... not my problem till it affects my neighborhood and if it ever does... I want to be armed.
I let a pilots licence laps 30 years ago... I have flown ultralights and raced cars... all my college is night stuff so probly doesn't count... my daddy never had a corvette but I built my own out of a wreck when I was 22. I have been a contractor and have had a girlfriend or two to go along with an ex wife or so... My current girlfriend is working out nicely. I have a fair skill level with a lot of tools and have built both cars that I am driving. Did I mention that my daddy never owned a corvette and that..... I never got all weepy about it but then.... I never took any philosophy courses so that may be the problem.
I have hired black guys and worked with em... I don't care about em one way or the other. I bet I am less of a bigot than you are thrawn cause I am honest about it. I don't date black women cause I don't find em attractive unless they are allmost white. I don't drive in black neitghborhoods or pretend that "negroes like me".
lazs
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Animal:
student pilot - check
scuba diver - check
well versed in philosophy, literatue, current events - check
hottie girlfriend - check
dad's corvet - ?
This has got to be the gayest post ever.
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LOL
I prefer beating my own chest to someone elses :D
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yeah.. he kinda sucked me into that one. My point was that people are people and everyone has his accomplishments and foibles. If you want an unbiassed view (in alphabetical order and referenced) of my faults.....simply ask the aforementioned former wives and girlfriends. or thrawn.
lazs
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Povery plays some part in the proliferation in Black Crime, but not the major part. The great majority of African-Americans in the U.S. have, throughout our history, been poor. However, their society has not always been violent. One of the oddities seldom discussed in these debates is the rising violent crime rate during decades when a large percentage of the Black population was moving into the lower and upper middle classes.
How does one explain this? The answer lies in the growing drug culture in American society. Most inner-city gangs are deeply involved in it. The violence associated with drugs is more than just a struggle for turf or a share of the market. Some murders are committed as revenge for some previous act of violence or disrespect. A way of saving "face," as it were. Much of it is done just for thrills or kicks.
My home town, although it has a population of only 3,500, is a prime example. During the '50s and '60s, despite the effects of discrimination and segregation, it was a relatively peaceful place to live. There were jobs available to any who wished to work.
But by the early '70s some of the local business began to go under. The middle class, both black and white, started to desert the town. Law enforcement grew lax. Drug use began to spread, not only among the poor but also through the ranks of the remaining middle class. The streets that were filled with black and white shoppers and partiers on Friday and Saturday nights grew deserted because of the fear of violence.
The causes were only indirectly linked to poverty. These events happened because of a change in the town's cultural more's.
Shuckins
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I respect anyone who has succeeded in life, especially when the circumstances made success difficult.
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Shuckins, I agree completely.
Drugs have been the key. One of the reasons "Black Crime" statistics are IMHO skewed is due to drug law enforcement. Look at the article I posted earlier. A black person is more likely to be caught, convicted and incarcerated for possesion, even though we know most users are not Black. This increases the Black population in our prisons, and in a vicious circle increases the police presence in Black communities and on and on and on.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
IQ tests are racially biased too.
Yep, just like SATs, they're obviously biased in favor of Laotians and other people of south east asian descent .
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Lazs, who said anything about black professors?
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Ok... so now it's not inteligence or poverty.... it's.... drugs. Black people are somehow more suceptible to the effects of drugs or... they become more murderous on drugs? it's all so confusing.
animal... good point. I assumed that a black professor would have more insight on black culture. I do realize that there are certainly a lot of white professors that belive they have the answer... they sound good when their audience is a bunch of 18 year olds but when they publish... well... let's just say that I haven't seen anything that explains it to me but...
why don't you ask em and then you can explain to the rest of us who are not seeming to be able to come up with an answer... The latest is that somehow.... blacks that are stupid and poor are more murderous when on drugs than white people who are stupid and poor and on drugs. Don't sound plausible to me so maybe you can ferret out the real reason from your learned proffessors who no doubt have vast experiance in these types of studies.
lazs
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Black American social ills are mostly a result of the Great Society. In 1965 black illegitimacy rates were 25%. Now they are 70%. Patrick Moynihan has all but admitted that the Democrats' meddling with infinitely complex social forces has been a disaster. End it, don't mend it.
ra
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lazs2: Ok... factor intelegence. I haven't seen those figures but it would have to come up with some kind of profile like... "people with x IQ or lower and X yearly income have X amount of homicides per 100,000 regardless of race. I don't think that will do it...
They will in almost all income/intelligence groups.
The situation will be somewhat worse at the bottom - but mostly due to effects of concentration. That would be cultural circumstance - not an indication of ingerent "evilness".
100 dumb people living in a community of 1000 regular people would be much less likely to get into trouble than the same 100 dumb people living alone like it happens in inner-city gettoes.
how do you regulate intelegence?
What do you mean by regulate? You can screw it up by wrong nutrition or using drugs/alcohol during pregnancy.
There are no methods of raising it by a measurable amount - whatever the expence. Some methods (Head Start) add 6-10 IQ points to young children but by the age of 17 the difference between them and a control group goes away, so they actually accelerate it rather than add to it.
What you can do is create an environment where dumb people are less likely to cause problems and create jobs they can perform, etc.
BTW, while most of the antisocial people are dumb, only a minor fraction of dumb people are anti-social. That is very important to remember.
Just because over 50% of criminals are black, only a very small fraction of black are criminals.
Do you think that Blacks have NOT been marginalized by discrimination?
Sure they were. That does not mean that the discrepancies we see today are mostlythe result of discrimination that ended two generations ago. There are studies that allow to isolate the effects - good studies done by conciensious people. Not just in US. Not just in places where blacks are minority or are not represented, etc.
So either you are trolling, or I was wrong in my assessment of you.
Unfortunately I am not trolling. You are welcome to examine the same studies/information I did and find flaws in them. I would be only to happy to learn that the problem is solvable. I have no desire for my children to live in a racially-torn world. I do not believe it would be good for them even if theyw ere guaranteed the role of "oppressors" - let alone victims.
I've done a lot of homework on that topic. I tried to bring extensive descriptions of the studies and results but never got an argument on the vurtues of the data presented - just got called names. So I leave it to the people to read the books/articles. I could give you the references if you have trouble finding them - which is highly unlikely. Whether you agree with my point now or not, it would never hurt to know the arguments of the opposing side. You would have to spend time though - few thousand pages worth.
If you list a specific example how a study can be skewed, I would be happy to examine it. So far I can see one clear statement:
midnight Target: IQ tests are racially biased too.
Not the ones I am referring too. You do not try to discredit physics based on incorrect theories that physicists believed 150 years ago.
Care to name a kind of study that could was/have been done over the last 50 years and how it could have been biased and I will respond.
The link you've provided is not that convincing. The author does not use any numbers - just makes a hypothetical point and discards the whole issue. Yes, there may be racial bias - but in may be eliminated. Was it? Yes, the drug-posession may be more skewed. But by how much? Were the results used in the studies he mentions without such adjustments? Where are the references?
What about murders ? Murder Victims - hard to skewed race statistics of a murder victim, isnt'it? Children out of wedlock?
The degradation of the family through poor male role modeling.
And you think those can be unrelated to intelligence?
Animal: I would love to see miko, lazs and some others have a discussion with some professors I have met.
Since it is not likely, would you care to direct us to any books or articles those esteemed fellows produced on the relavant subject? Barring that, would you ask them what reading they would recommend?
The guys I've read were quite accomplished academicians too.
H. Godwineson: The great majority of African-Americans in the U.S. have, throughout our history, been poor.
Lack of equality and social mobility kept capable blacks living among less capable ones. Also, there were no corrupting government handouts. Once that situation got corrected, capable blacks left.
Black American social ills are mostly a result of the Great Society. In 1965 black illegitimacy rates were 25%. Now they are 70%.
But white's are "only" 36% - how come such a discrepancy? So it can't be just welfare.
miko
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Here is even more to spin yer head Lazs.
From
This Article (http://hnn.us/comments/1789.html)
It should be noted that some studies have suggested that rates of black homicide and other violence are no greater than those of similarly situated (i.e., economically deprived) whites. See, Brandon S. Centerwall, "Race, Socioeconomic Status and Domestic Homicide, Atlanta, 1971-72," 74 AM. J. PUB. HLTH. 813, 815 (1984) (reporting results of research and discussing prior studies). See also Darnell F. Hawkins, "Inequality, Culture, and Interpersonal Violence," 12 HEALTH AFFAIRS 80 (1993).
and
(historian Roger Lane) emphasizes industrialization as a violence-reductive factor in the Western World: the Industrial Revolution required and produced disciplined, orderly work forces.
and (lazs will like this part)
. As we shall see, urban blacks actually have far less gun ownership than either whites in general or rural blacks. Yet the gun murder rate among young black urban males is 9.3 times higher than among young black rural males. Lois A. Fingerhut, et al., "Firearm and Non-Firearm Homicide Among Persons 15 Through 19 Years of Age: Differences by Level of Urbanization, U.S. 1979-89," 267 Journal of the American Medical Ass'n. 3048, 3049, Table 1 (1992). Obviously, neither guns nor race can account for the fact of homicide being so much less among the well-armed rural African-American population than among their relatively poorly armed urban compeers. The obvious lesson is that, whatever their race, the small fraction of (highly aberrant) people who want to murder find guns regardless of how prevalent guns may be in their general community.
and just to completely novelize this post, here is another possible reason for "Urban" crime rates.
Historically, disproprotionate black homicide rates may be attributed to the virtual exclusion of African-Americans from major sectors of employment during the post-Civil War period which continued through the mid-20th Century. Lane's seminal research has documented the role of racism in both promoting murder by African-Americans and excluding them from the violence-reductive effects of industrial employment:
In the post-Civil War period though black murder rates were high, they were far lower than today ... and lower than those of their immigrant Irish competitors while Italian murder rates [when Italians began immigrating] soared well above those of blacks.
[A]fter the [Civil W]ar both unions and employers, all over the country, combined to drive [blacks out of high paying trades]... [F]actory work, all across the country was considered too good for black workers. [Black homicide is] another social-psychological [deprivation that] resulted from black exclusion from the regimenting effects of industrial and bureaucratic work. These effects are shown in the relatively rapid decline in homicide rates among Irish and Italian immigrants, two other ethnic groups with high levels of preindustrial violence, as their integration into the industrial work force demanded unprecedented levels of sober, disciplined, orderly behavior, which carried over into their private lives.
[Later when they were] no longer shut out of the urban-industrial revolution, blacks were instead let in too late. During the 1940s and 1950s blacks in effect were piped aboard a sinking ship, welcomed into the urban industrial age just as that age was dying, with industrial cities losing population and jobs.
[In late 19th Century Philadelphia] blacks consistently outscored their competitors on written tests of all kinds... Even the white press generally agreed that black civil servants (and, a historian would add, blacks as a group) were overqualified for the [low level jobs to which they were confined] in this era, as a result of a general refusal to promote them to positions where they might have authority of any kind over white workers. [Blacks were acutely aware of the need for education and struggled heroically to attain it. B]lack literacy in the city soared from roughly 20 percent to 80 percent over the final thirty years of the [19th C]entury ... [Philadelphia blacks included doctors, lawyers and other professionals -- graduates of Harvard, Yale and the University of Pennsylvania. But] that was no guarantee that they could make a living. As whites would not hire them and blacks could not afford them, licensed black physicians were found working as bellhops.... In the early 20th Century not one of Philadelphia' black attorneys could make a living through his law practice alone.
The lesson blacks learned from this was that for them education had no economic value. (NOTE: the quotes just given are taken from Lane's MURDER IN AMERICA, pp. 181-85, 298-300 and 327, as well as Roger Lane, "Black Philadelphia, Then and Now" 108 THE PUBLIC INTEREST 35, 42 (Fall, Summer, 1992) and Roger Lane, ROOTS OF VIOLENCE IN BLACK PHILADELPHIA: 1860-1900 (Cambridge, Harvard U. Press, 1986).
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Originally posted by Hortlund
This has got to be the gayest post ever.
I can't help myself, I find that I am attracked to Animal. :(
I ment as sort of tongue in cheek, Hortland.
I think that Lazs is getting screwed up by causality.
Statement - Black people are involved in more per capita homocides then other races.
Conclusion - Genetics in black people are the cause of this problem.
I would like to see him prove this.
It's a simplistic argument that ignores economic, historical issues (such as decades of out right segragation) and the insititutional racism that surround these people.
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miko - That does not mean that the discrepancies we see today are mostlythe result of discrimination that ended two generations ago.
Which dream world are you in today?:confused:
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Thought Thrawn was yer old gf lazs :D
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so that everyone understands... I think that it is a small percentof black people that are causeing the high per capita rate of gun homicides in America. If we take these sociopaths out of the mix then the U.S. gun homicide rate is "acceptable".
I do not pretend to know the reasons... I can guess but ... like all the answers i have seen here... it would be a guess... I am pragmatic in any case... I will deal with it as it is and you libs can work out the "cause"... If you can come up with a solution that is better than my solution then I will support it.
My solution is to have even looser concealed carry permits and at the same time.... Increase penalties dramatically for gun crime including stealing a firearm. If you ad 30 years to a sentance for burglary if a gun is stolen you will see houses cleaned out with the gun still lying on the floor.. If you dowbt this then you are not looking at the example of the postal service...
In the mean time... If you want to improve the lot of the sociopath in order to prevent more from being made/born whatever... fine. But you need to get the disease under control first.... a little quarantine is in order.
lazs
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Which dream world are you in today?:confused:
How often do you see whites discriminating against blacks? In my 13 years in NYC I havent' seen one case and I saw a lot of privileges extended for racial reasons.
And I was looking and asking for years. Being raised in single-race society where racist feelings could not possibly exist other than as concept of "evil" practiced somewhere in US, according to our books, I was really interested. What's more - I saw plenty of evidence from blacks that there is no discrimination, otehr than the danger of resentment brought on by preferential treatment. Ward Connerly? Thomas Sowell? Walter Williams? Any number of books by black authors denouncing affirmative action in your nearest book store?
How about places where blacks are overwhelming majority, have black school boards, legislatures and mayor? And plenty of money spent per student in a public school, etc. Like Washington, DC, for example. Who opresses them?
I saw the results of the studies - including those that show that blacks with the same IQ are paid a bit more than whites. That does not indicate a lot of discrimination, does it?
I could try to be personally offencive (like you) and imply that you live in a scary-fantasy world created by socilaists but I would rather argue the issue on a merit of the arguments and data. Care to name real examples of widespread discrimination? I will consider them.
The liberal's position is that blacks are 12% of the population and women 51% - so we should observe the same distribution everywhere. That would be true if the groups were identical in related abilities. If they are not - you pose an unachievable goal.
Yes, the scientists 150 years ago tried to explain an obvious phenomenon with hypothesis that were false - measuring brain volume, etc. Those hypothesis and methods were proven false. That does not mean that the phenomenon does not exosts and that modern methods should not be considered.
Every time a liberal "refutes" the "intelligence hypothesis", he/she refers to 100-year old statements despite plenty of research done quite recently and available in any bookstore. Why is that? Too scared to tackle the real thing?
Yes, slavery had negative effects. How come those effects were mild 40 years after slavery but became terrible 100 years after it ended (compare stats for 1905 and 1985 - marriage, etc)? And that after most of the country switched to pro-equality from segregation?
If the majority of americans support equal rights (after all, the laws were adopted reflecting teh will of the majority), who does all the discrimination?
Colleges fight for a black student who has even a slight chance not to drop out. Big firms look for such graduates regardless of qualifications to make "quotas". Are you saying there is enough hidden discrimination that negates those widespread and visible efforts by the majority?
I am not even talking about the fact that even if the discrimination were present, 30 million blacks could have had mostly self-sufficient communities like many other ethnicities had and still have.
If a guy fails to hire a capable black guy in favor of incapable white or refuses the black customers, than the non-racist business, especially the black business would have built-in advantages of more accessible capable employees and guaranteed loyal customer base - besides the fact that many non-rasist whites would also prefer black-run businesses. So even with real discrimination blacks would actually prosper - like many discriminated minorities did over the centuries in many countries.
Unless you are implying that blacks are not capable of running the business as well as whites do and cannot maintain a civilised society other that as an appendage of a white one. But that would imply an inherent lack of abilities, wouldn't it?
How about lots of blacks, let alone other ethnicities immigrating into our country just to get a chance to be discriminated against?
Anyway, I somehow expect that my post will elicit no more of substantiation than any past discussions did.
For people trying to prove genetic racial equality of intelligence, liberals surely do not try hard...
miko
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Statement - Black people are involved in more per capita homocides then other races.
Conclusion - Genetics in black people are the cause of this problem.
If the statement is true, that does not have to mean that the conclusion is true too. There might be other reasons. Welcome to the scientific method
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Originally posted by Hortlund
If the statement is true, that does not have to mean that the conclusion is true too. There might be other reasons. Welcome to the scientific method
Uhhh, that's what I said.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Uhhh, that's what I said.
Uhhh, I know that.
But if the statement is true, there has to be some reason for it...no?
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Originally posted by Gunthr
I agree, parts of Africa are totally out of control.
I'm most familure with Zimbabwe. A buddy of mine, Tim Bradshaw, is a close friend of wildlife artist Craig Bone, who lives there. My buddy sells his paintings, and he has spents months there as Bone's guest.
The government actually incites the blacks to take over white ranches and farms by force. You don't go anywhere without being armed. Its a lawless place. Bone has a lot of stories about the stuff that goes on there...
For info on his paintings....
Here (http://www.africanseasons.com/)
Story broke today in the news that Mugabe was inciting more racial riots in order to steal land from the farmers that bought the land during British rule. And then there were the Nigerian riots caused by a fashion writer's opinion of the Miss World pageant. If something like that will touch off a riot, I'm not so sure I'd want to be in an African nation, particularly one that was just coming out of a civil war.
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I see discrimination fairly regularly miko. Not every day, but often enough.
I have seen the police follow my son around a store then out to his car... followed by the delivery of a ticket for "bald tires". I am certain that the policeman assumed he and his 2 black friends were "probably troublemakers". This type of thing happens more often than you realize.
Sometimes discrimination is pretty obvious, like that extra ID check at the store counter that the white man in front of you didn't get. Sometimes it is more subtle and probably unintentional like when someone talks to the white man in a group as if it were obvious that he must be in charge. The point is, discrimination is alive and well.
I'm assuming you missed my earlier post regarding the sociological reasons for increased urban crime. I am not trying to duck your intelligence theories, just provide a more logical one. One of the points included this:
[In late 19th Century Philadelphia] blacks consistently outscored their competitors on written tests of all kinds...
Additionally, as a former Special Education teacher, I find IQ assessments to be questionable at best. They are invariably tied in some way to social development or the accumulation of some knowledge base.
I had a student who was tested at an IQ of about 70. If you were to tell her your birthday and year of birth she could calculate your exact age in years months and days in about 3 seconds. She would then tell you which day of the week you were born. What was her real IQ?
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Originally posted by midnight Target
I had a student who was tested at an IQ of about 70. If you were to tell her your birthday and year of birth she could calculate your exact age in years months and days in about 3 seconds. She would then tell you which day of the week you were born. What was her real IQ?
"about 70"
By definition her IQ was about 70, you just said so yourself.
Exactly what does the concept of "IQ" mean to you anyway? The ability to calculate high numbers?
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"What IQ means to me"
It is just an attempt to assign a number to a person's potential to learn. The real question is ... how much is intelligence predicated on genetics and how much is based on sociological development?
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Originally posted by midnight Target
"What IQ means to me"
It is just an attempt to assign a number to a person's potential to learn. The real question is ... how much is intelligence predicated on genetics and how much is based on sociological development?
Not an expert here, but as far as I know, you can't change your IQ. You just got what you got, and once the child develops into an addult and reaches the peak, the IQ remains the same for the rest of a life
I'm sure Miko will explain it better.
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I'm sure he will also, but that very point is at the heart of the controversy regarding miko's favorite book.. "Bell Curve".
It is not as cut and dried as you say, or as miko feels, or as the authors of Bell Curve try to prove.
IQ can be enhanced through social intervention.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
how much is intelligence predicated on genetics and how much is based on sociological development?
Didnt the twin studies give the answer to that one?
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Thrawn: Statement - Black people are involved in more per capita homocides then other races.
Conclusion - Genetics in black people are the cause of this problem.
Hortlund: If the statement is true, that does not have to mean that the conclusion is true too. There might be other reasons. Welcome to the scientific method
Just becasue you call something "conclusion" does not make it a conclusion.
Here how it really works:
Statement - Black people are involved in more per capita homocides then other races.
Hypothesis - Genetics in black people are the cause of this problem.
Development of the theory:
Let's come up with a hypothetical mechanism that would explain causal relationship of genetics on a crime rate.
Let's come with experiments that isolate influence of genetics and support or refute teh hypothesis.
Working hypothesis:
1. Intelligence is mostly genetically determined.
2. Low intelligence increases a chance of antisocial behavior.
3. Blacks' genes determine lower intelligence.
Research:
1. Condict studies on on a statistically significant sample isolating effect of genes in determining intelligence. Studies on twins, siblings, adopted children. Factor out socioeconomic and educational environment, ethnicity, culture, etc.
Finding: intelligence it 60%-80% determined by genes. The rest of it is random.
2. Conduct studies on a statistically significant sample isolating influence of intelligence on anti-social behaviour. Factor our other variables.
Finding: low intelligence has much higher influence on anti-social behaviour than family income, education, etc.
3. Conduct measurements of blacks intelligence. Done.
Conduct studies to determine if the lower intelligence in blacks is mostly genetic rather than economicaly, culturally or otherwise determined.
Ancillary:
Determine if the low performance of blacks on paper-and-pencil or oral tests is influenced by lower motivation, unfamilarity with taking tests, etc. Design tests that woudl eliminate such distortions if any.
Done. Example - Forward digit span blacks are better than whites which indicates better memory and at least the same motivation. Backward digit span which requires much more involved neural processing. The same blacks perform worse. Motivation cannot be a factor.
Examples:
Perform culture-neutral question/answer tests designed to measure intelligence.
Test subjects on neural-pricessing tasks of various complexity not requiring concious thought.
Measure physiological and neural parameters that were in other groups shown to corellate with measured intelligence - brain wave frequency and patterns, degree of myelination, neural conductivity, neural density, glucose consumption, etc.
Conduct statistical studies. Example:
Take a sample of parents - whites, blacks, and jews with average IQ 120-125 and family income $100,000+, both parents present and are professionals with a graduate degree, residing in upscale suburban neighbourhoods. All children attending private or suburban schools.
Measure average intelligence of their children. According to the statistical phenomenot of "reversal to the mean" the average intelligence of the children would be in the middle of an average of their parents intelligence and the average population intelligence. I_children = (I_parents + I_population) / 2 approximately.
Results:
Whites average children intelligence 110 which indicates average white population intelligence 100 - as expected.
Ashkenasi jews children intelligence 118 which ndicates average ashkenazi jews intelligence 115 - check.
Blacks average children intelligence 105 which indicates average black population intelligence about 85 - check.
And so on...
Now we come to a conclusion and can form a theory.
midnight Target: I see discrimination fairly regularly miko. Not every day, but often enough.
I am sorry to hear that. I would certainly hope that the cases of real discimination are not neglected by honest people. You never do a favor to you own race by discriminating against another one.
I would like to note that the examples you've cited are not discrimination that would actually prevent a person's promotion or social mobility.
Yes, police does concentrate more on certain groups. But. Unless the the cops turn criminals and fabricate charges - which does not happen often, most of their checks do not result in any real harm other than frustrationand lost time. I view such attention as privilege to blacks becasue it increases a chance of a black criminal being caught which benefits lifes of law-abiding blacks more than otehr groups. I wouls certainly not mind if police cracked down on russian criminals. I would have easier time dealing with russians knowing there is smaller chance one of them is a crook - even if I have to be stopped by police one in a while.
My experience with groups which really underwent discrimination - jews and germans in Soviet Union, as well as historical examples indicate that a group is at elast as likely to thrive as suffer die to external pressure - at least culturally, with respect to family values, etc.
Yes, ID check at the store is humiliating. Not only does not it not prevent one from studying or working, but provides motivation to succeed - provided the ability is there.
In late 19th Century Philadelphia] blacks consistently outscored their competitors on written tests of all kinds.
There are plenty of capable people among blacks. Given appropriate leaders and cultural motivation, why shouldn't they have succeeded? Were they truly representative of the whole black race or a selected sample? I suspect latter but I do not know about that.
as a former Special Education teacher...
You surely must know that statistics is not applicable to individual cases and a person's individual IQ score is only corellated with his/her chance of success - rather loosely at that. It is indicative of a person's success but only roughly. Often motivation, temperament and other traits play more significant role. I know plenty of brilliant failures.
But for a population a small statistical difference is hugely significant. Casinos are making millions with only 2-3% odds advantage.
When it comes to obvious deviaitons from the norm, all statistics goes out the window.
The girl's abilities demonstrate powerfull capabilities of human mind that are not accessible to us because of higher level of controlling processes. Brain has amasing raw computing ability. She is not in any way unique in that - we all have those abilities, just can't access them conciously or voluntarily.
miko
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Just for starters, and I don't want you to think I am ignoring the book you just posted...
I will pass on to my son that the discrimination he has experienced is really the White mans gift to him. I'll have him send a card.
:rolleyes: <--- not enough of these in the world.
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"social intervention" yikes... MT... I think if you see discrimination every day then you are seeing things that your mind cojurs up... I also say that I bet negroes like me better than they like you. They told me that they think you are a wuss.
but... all that asside.... rhythm..... black people more than white?
lazs
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yes
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Originally posted by lazs2
"social intervention" yikes... MT... I think if you see discrimination every day then you are seeing things that your mind cojurs up... I also say that I bet negroes like me better than they like you. They told me that they think you are a wuss.
but... all that asside.... rhythm..... black people more than white?
lazs
:)
I gotta admit Lazs, you are one funny honky.
Rhythm? More? I prefer to think it's just a different rhythm.
I can't get into East Coast rap, and my sons just don't understand Led Zepplin.. go figure?
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Myth: Social intervention cannot raise IQ. (http://www.korpios.org/resurgent/L-intervention.htm)
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midnight Target: I will pass on to my son that the discrimination he has experienced is really the White mans gift to him. I'll have him send a card.
OK, I was speaking straight and did not intend to offend anyone.
I do really hate people who find joy in abusing or humiliating others - be they policemen or anyone else. There is usually a limit in intelligence that a patrollmen is allowed to have in many jurisdictions - smart people get bored with that kind of job.
I feel revolted seing other people humiliated by whomever.
You did, BTW, not indicate if those policment behaved in impolite manner which makes quite a difference.
I do not want scumbags in my police. I do not really want police paid for by my tax money spend any extra time in black neighbourhoods. That "White man's gift" is paid with my money and given to my detriment. If it's not welcome - I would be more than happy to vote for any politician who would stop that. i have some doubts about that - I constantly hear cries for "more police" in those places.
Would you care to suggest segregatoing police so that blacks are dealing only with black policemen? I'd support you.
But excuse me if I do not cry you a river because of your hurt feelings. You live in your country and seem to mostly like it. I left a country where I lived for 25 years - because it was really tough. Many people around me - blacks and yellows and browns and whites - are immigrants here in New York. We all came into this "racist", "discriminatory" society because we had real troubles back there - not some dude asking for an ID at the store or checking a driver license.
I would not feel extra stop by police as the real problem in my life. If that's the biggest worry of you and your son - I can only congratulate you. Do not emigrate to another country.
If that would really prevent your son from getting as good grades as he can - of couse it will not be your fault but of the overeager policemen.
miko
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midnight Target: Myth: Social intervention cannot raise IQ. (http://www.korpios.org/resurgent/L-intervention.htm)
So let's hope someone conducts a representative study covering pre-birth through maturity.
I see clear contradictions with the results in this article.
How come intelligence differences in whites do not "fade" - intelligence at 6 years old is the best predictor of intelligence at 18 - but the "Head Start" results disappear?
Nobody argues that it is possible to remove negative effects of malnutrition - bringing abilities to the genetically-determined level. Above that - not much success to show.
Other results cited there - I can take a guess about few wholes those studies might have had. I may be wrong but without seing the conditions of the study I do not know. I will try to look up the originals.
Example:
Socioeconomic status change and IQ of adopted children.
...lower or upper class biological parents who had been adopted by lower or upper class homes
It would be hard for me to believe that the sample babies were truly randomly assigned to parents.
Wouldn't upper class parents try select the best available babies? Like from a poor misguided girl who might not be ready to start a family, but healthy, good looking, apparently smart and not abusing drugs, alcohol, etc.?
Poor people have problem with adoption approval. They take what they can - even if they realised implications of the poor choice.
Wealthy know their adoption will always be approved. They can pick and chose. How many IQ points bias would selection by smart wealthy adoptive parents introduce?
How would a poor family grab a hold of a baby from an upper class household? France is an extremely egalitarian society. children of wildly varyiing backgrounds get much closer educational environment that in US. So to make a large difference, the lower class should be really, really low. I am surprised there were so many so bad households that were allowed to adopt babies.
Was there something wrong with the babies to explain upper class parent's willingness to part with them?
Oh, yeah: A few qualifications about the study bear mentioning: the sample size was very small (38 children), and it is unknown exactly how rich or poor the parents were, or what their IQs were. - just 38 children in the study. Unknown parents IQ? Isn't it likely that biological parents from the upper households who have unwanted babies are very likely to be of low intelligence. In fact low-intelligence better that social status predicts if you end up with an unwanted baby.
How about this:
"The problem, obviously, is that no one knows how to equalize environments upward on so grand a scale, particularly since so much of what goes on in the nurturing of children is associated with the personality and behavior of the parent, not material wealth." (17)
This is a truly remarkable statement. First of all, it's a political and economic argument, not a biological one. It abandons their original claim that social intervention cannot raise IQs, and now argues that we do not possess the political will or economic ability to do so.
That's an outright lie. The (17) statement claims that the personality and behavior of the parent are most important, not wealth.
The artcle's claim "First of all, it's a political and economic argument, not a biological one." seems completely incoherent. How do you equalise upwards parent's personality?
How do you politically or economically change parent's behavior? Their love of children, interests, reading books to the kids?
They just plugged usuall socialist slogan for redistribution of wealth without even seeing if it applies.
Smart people have smart children. Smart people also tend to be wealthier - but even if you make them poor, they will still have smarter children. Wealth (outside of starvation) is not a biggest factor.
Anyway, thanks for reference. I will look it up time permitting.
miko
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Uhhh, I know that.
But if the statement is true, there has to be some reason for it...no?
Uhhh, yeah.
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I guess if you are living in a country and that country uses an IQ test that is biased because after 400 years of living in that country you still have your own culture... then the IQ test merely tests how well you will fit in and how well you will do in that society. If you do poorly then... you should switch gears since it is easier for you to do so as an individual than it is to change society.
lazs