Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Pyro on December 10, 2002, 04:53:10 PM
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Anybody know where I can find turret traversal rate for the Panzer IVH?
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I can get it for you tonight I think.
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I was wondering about that Oedipus... and the same thing about the Ostwind. Could they be operated without the engine on and what sacrifices were made as a result?
AKDejaVu
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Hmmm, I only know Tiger I's one...
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Maximum traverse rate is 14 Degs/second according to my sources.
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dejav, I think the ostie's turret was powered by man power.
(but not sure, I must re-check my source later.)
oedipus's idea is great.
btw my another question is why AH doesn't simulate correct fire action in the ostwind.
AH's ostie can fire cannon like a full-auto gun, but actually it had 6-round cartridge clips (magazine).
it means ostie needs to change magazines when it fired 6-round.
I think Bofors 40mm cannon had the same system too (WWIIOL already simulated this action).
what about implementing it to AH?
thx.
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Originally posted by Mitsu
dejav, I think the ostie's turret was powered by man power.
(but not sure, I must re-check my source later.)
oedipus's idea is great.
btw my another question is why AH doesn't simulate correct fire action in the ostwind.
AH's ostie can fire cannon like a full-auto gun, but actually it had 6-round cartridge clips (magazine).
it means ostie needs to change magazines when it fired 6-round.
I think Bofors 40mm cannon had the same system too (WWIIOL already simulated this action).
what about implementing it to AH?
thx.
Would be nice if this was modeled.
I bet if it was, the Ostwind scourge would quickly end. If after every 6th shot, the gun had a 10 second or so delay (to simulate reloading) it would be much harder for the spray and pray types to kill stuff.
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Originally posted by Midnight
Would be nice if this was modeled.
I bet if it was, the Ostwind scourge would quickly end. If after every 6th shot, the gun had a 10 second or so delay (to simulate reloading) it would be much harder for the spray and pray types to kill stuff.
yes, if it's modelled, the ostie would be weakening, but it also would make the new tactics.
I'd like to see it.
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Originally posted by Midnight
Would be nice if this was modeled.
I bet if it was, the Ostwind scourge would quickly end. If after every 6th shot, the gun had a 10 second or so delay (to simulate reloading) it would be much harder for the spray and pray types to kill stuff.
i like it!
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oh, i'm sorry for hi-jacking thread...pyro.
my english is bad, can someone post a new thread about it?
thx.
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Pyro-
Manual traverse of PzIV turret was 14 deg/sec
Powered traverse was electric and not dependent on engine speed...will research.
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Oh, thank the Lord!! I thought this was going to be another Kurt Tank bashing thread!!
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times for full revolution.(German testing)
T34 10 seconds
KV 30-35 seconds
Sherman 15 seconds
Panther-Tiger 30-35 seconds..
Should be noted that the T34 had very fast traverse but inaccurate..
the Sherman had fast and accurate...
They didnt list the Panzer IVH.
The panzer IV H had a small two stroke engine that could run to keep the electric turrent travers going when the main engine was off..
I dont know if Ostwinds based on a panzer iv chasis kept the turrent motor and electric drive though. Easy to tell with a rear picture of the thing..if it has a big muffler and a little muffler it has the turrent motor.
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Powered traverse was taken out with the "J" model.Not the "H".
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PYRO:
Give me 72 hours and I'll get you the traverse speed data (powered at a couple of different RPM levels + manual) from WW2 Pz IVH crew training manual. I may even be able to get you scanned pages of the manual with the data.
Powered traverse speed varied - it was based off engine RPMs which is why German Pz drivers were taught to 'keep high RPMs when moving into firing position' = the high RPMs insured the fastest possible traverse.
Mike/wulfie
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Re: Ostwind - true about reloads. However, the ammunition should also be exploding shells with fuses, which would not require a direct hit on an aircraft to damage it.
3.7cm FlaK 43 of Ostwind didn't need to reload every 6 rounds either. It had a bigger magazine and was an amazing gun - 150% ROF increase over earlier 3.7cm FlaK gun used by Germans.
Mike/wulfie
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Thanks for the info guys. I did some digging through a bunch of books today but couldn't find it. Could one of you guys cite a source for the 14 deg/sec?
Mitsu, that gun was fed by clips but that did not require it to cease firing while another clip was loaded. Rather, the clips were simply inserted onto a feed tray(IIRC the tray could hold 2 clips at a time). As long as the loaders could toss clips on the feed tray faster than the gun fired them, there was no interruption. In fact, the Ju 87G illustrates this to some degree as it also used the six round clips but used two of them together for 12 rounds per gun. They just didn't have the luxury of somebody sitting out there slapping more clips into place as rounds were expended.
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Pyro, Thank you for explaining.
so these cannons didn't have a reload action lags...ok I understand.
Thanks.
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I don't mean to be annoying, but don't forget the cited 14°/s were for manual traverse. Powered traverse would be much faster - unfortunately, I'm 350km from my books ATM. If none of the other guys has the detailed data by Friday, I'll dig it up.
Did I say much faster ? The electric turret traverse system was deleted in Ausf. J (we got the model before, Ausf.H), so I guess it wasn't that fast ;)
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Google says the data is on this page - but the data fields come up blank in my browser (but I have foriegn languages turned off too)
In any case nice pictures diagrams and cut-aways, places for the data which I am pretty sure is there but I was unable to see:
http://www.chez.com/mythicpanzers/Panzer_!_Le_Mythe/Panzers/2-MediumPanzers/2-Pz.Kpfw_IV-2.html#Ausf.H
Extra Stuff:
Gun data - everything except traverse of course, other than to note 360° (manual and electric) and interestingly however that gun elevation was manual only: (also all sorts other datas such as Max grade 67% Max level road speed 24mph etc etc etc.)
http://afvdb.50megs.com/germany/pz4.html#AusfH
Penetration Performance and Armor thickness
http://members.rogers.com/admfisher/html/pz4.html
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Well, this is everything I could find: Of course, Traverse speed is missing, but it was powered by a seperate engine:
Ausf A, B, C, D, E, F1 Ausf F2, G, H, J
Crew Commander, gunner, loader, driver, radio operator Commander, gunner, loader, driver, radio operator
Physical Characteristics
Weight A: 39,683 lb, 17.3, 18.4 tons
B: 17.7, 18.8 tons
B, C: 41,887 LB
C: 19, 20 tons
D: 44,092 LB, 20 tons
E: 46,297 LB, 21 tons
F1: 49,163 LB, 22.3 tons 52,000 LB
F2: 50,706 LB, 23, 23.6 tons
G: 23.5, 23.6 tons
H, J: 25 tons
Length w/gun A: 18' 4.5", 18' 8", 5.6, 5.7 m
B-F1: 19' 5.25", 5.92 m
B, C: 5.87 m
D, E: 5.91 m
F1: 5.93 m 20' 10"
F2, G: 18' 5.5", 5.62, 6.63 m
G: 19' 4", 5.9, 6.62 m
H, J: 23' 3", 7.02 m
Length w/o gun F2: 5.93 m
G: 6.63 m
H, J: 5.89 m
G, H, J: 19' 4"
Height 8' 8.5"
A: 2.65 m
B, C, D, E, F1: 2.68 m
A-C: 2.59 m
D-F1: 2.68 m 8' 6"
F2-J: 8' 9.5", 2.68 m
Width A: 9' 6", 9' 8", 2.9 m
B, C: 9' 3.25", 2.83 m
D, E, F1: 9' 4", 2.84 m
A-C: 2.85 m
D, E: 2.86 m
F1: 2.88 m 9' 7"
F2: 9' 3.75", 2.84, 2.88 m
G: 9' 7", 2.9 m
G, H, J: 2.88 m
Ground clearance A-F1: 40 cm F2: 40 cm
G, H, J: 1' 3"
Ground contact length A-F1: 3.52 m F2-J: 3.52 m
Ground pressure A: 9.67 psi, 0.65 kg/cm2
B: 0.66 kg/cm2
B, C: 10.95 psi
C, D: 0.75 kg/cm2
D: 11.81 psi
E: 12.94 psi
E, F1: 0.79 kg/cm2
F1: 12.52 psi F2, G: 0.84 kg/cm2
G: 13.23 psi
H, J: 0.89 kg/cm2
Turret ring diameter A-F1: 1.65 m F2: 1.65 m
Armament (mm)
Main 75 mm KwK 37 L/24 F2: 75 mm KwK 40 L/43
G: 75 mm KwK 40 L/43 or
75 mm KwK 40 L/48
H, J: 75 mm KwK 40 L/48
Secondary
MG A, D, E, F1: 7.92 mm MG34, coaxial, hull
B, C: 7.92 mm MG34, coaxial 7.92 mm MG34 coaxial, hull
Side arms
Quantity
Main A: 122
A, B, C, D, E, F1: 80 87: HEAT, smoke, APCR, APCBC, HE
F2-J: 87
Secondary
MG A: 3,000
B, C: 2,400
D, E: 2,700
F1: 3,000, 3,150 F2: 3,200, 3,000
G: 3,000, 2,250
H, J: 3,150
Side arms
Armor Thickness (mm)
Hull Front, Upper A: 15@7°
B, C, D: 30@7°
E: 30+30@7°
F1: 50@10° F2, G: 60
F2: 50@10°
G: 50 or 50+30@10°
H: 80@10°
J: 80@8°
Hull Front, Lower A: 15@12°
B, C, D: 30@12°
E: 50@15°
F1: 50@12° 25
F2: 50@12°
G: 50 or 50+30@12°
H: 80@14°
J: 80@15°
Hull Sides, Upper A, B, C: 15@0°
D: 20@0°
E: 20+20@0°
F1: 30@0° F2, G, H, J: 30@0°
Hull Sides, Lower A, B, C: 15@0°
D: 20@0°
E: 20+20@0°
F1: 30@0° F2, G, H, J: 30@0°
Hull Rear A, B, C: 15@10°
D: 20@9° & 10°
E: 20@10° & 15°
F1: 20@9° & 12° F2: 20@0° & 20°
G: 20@9° & 12°
H: 20@8° & 11°
J: 20@10°
Hull Top 11
A, B, C, F1: 12@85°-90°
D, E: 12@84°-90° F2, G, H, J: 12@85°-90°
Hull Bottom A, B, C: 5@90°
D, E, F1: 10@90° F2, G, H, J: 10@90°
Turret Front A: 15@10°
mantlet: 15@round
B, C, D, E: 30@10°
mantlet: 30@round
D, E mantlet: 35@0°-29°
F1: 50@11°
mantlet: 50@0°-30° F2, G: 50@11°
mantlet: 50@0°-30°
H, J: 50@10
mantlet: 50@0°-30°
Turret Sides A, B, C: 15@25°
D: 20@25°
E: 20@24°
F1: 30@26° F2, G, H: 30@26°
J: 30@25°
Turret Rear A: 15@0°-25°
B, C: 15@0°-24°
D: 20@0°-24°
E: 20@14°
F1: 30@16° F2: 30@16°
G: 30@10°
H, J: 30@15°
Turret Top 10@83°-90° F2, G: 10@83°-90°
H: 15@84°-90°
J: 12@86 & 26@90°
Engine (Make / Model) Water cooled
A: Maybach HL 108TR
B, C: Maybach HL 120 TR
C, D, E, F1: Maybach HL 120 TRM F2, G, H: Maybach HL 120 TRM, Water cooled
Cylinders 12 12
Net HP A: 230
320 320
Transmission A: Synchromesh, ZF SFG 75, 5 forward, 1 reverse
B-F1: Synchromesh, ZF SSG 76, 6 forward, 1 reverse F2-J: ZF SSG 77, Synchromesh, 6 forward, 1 reverse
F2: ZF SSG 76, Synchromesh, 6 forward, 1 reverse
Fuel type Gasoline Gasoline
Octane B, C, D, E, F1: 74 74
Capacity 105 gallons
A-F1: 470 liters
A: Fuel usage per 100 km of road: 313 liters
B-F1: Fuel usage per 100 km of road: 235 liters F2: 105 gallons
F2-H: 470 liters
J: 680 liters
126 gallons
F2-H: Fuel usage per 100 km of road: 235 liters
J: Fuel usage per 100 km of road: 235 liters 227
Performance
Traverse 360°, electric 360°, electric
J: hand
Max Speed A: 18.5, 19.3 mph, 30, 31 kph
B, C, D: 40 kph
E, F1: 42 kph
B, C, D, E, F1: 25 mph 25 mph
F2, G: 40 kph
H, J: 38 kph
Cross Country A: 17 kph
B: 11 mph
C-F1: 20 kph 11 mph
F2-J: 16 kph
Road radius A: 150 km
B-F1: 200 km
C, D, E: 125 miles
A: Cross country: 100 km
C-F1: Cross country: 130 km F2-H: 200 km
G, H: 125 miles, 210 km
J: 200 miles, 300 km
F2-H: Cross country: 130 km
J: Cross country: 180 km
Turning Radius A-F1: 5.92 m F2-J: 5.92 m
Elevation Limits -11° to +21°
A: -19° to +30°
B, C: -10° to +20°
D, E, F1: -8° to +20° -11° to +21°
F2, G, H: -8° to +20°
Fording depth A-C: 80 cm
D-F1: 1 m
C, D: 2' 7.5" F2, G: 1 m
H, J: 1.2 m
G, H, J: 3'
Trench crossing C, D: 7' 7"
A-D: 2.3 m
E, F1: 2.2 m F2, G: 2.2 m
H, J: 2.35 m
G, H, J: 9'
Vertical Obstacle A-F1: 60 cm
C, D: 2' F2-J: 60 cm
G, H, J: 2' 6"
Suspension (Type) Leaf springs Leaf springs
Wheels each side 8x2 8x2
Return rollers each side 4x2 4x2
J: 3x2
Track length
Tires
Track width 15.75"
A-E: 38 m
F1: 40 cm 15.75"
F2-J: 40 cm
Track centers/tread A-E: 2.39 m
F1: 2.45 m F2: 2.45 m
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I have an Ostwind Question in Aircraft and Vehicles if anyone is in the know
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72419
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Originally posted by Pyro
Thanks for the info guys. I did some digging through a bunch of books today but couldn't find it. Could one of you guys cite a source for the 14 deg/sec?
Pyro,try http://www.battlefront.com BBS....Those guys from Combat Mission are hardcore WW2 vehicle junkies and can answer most any question.
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Originally posted by Turbot
Google says the data is on this page - but the data fields come up blank in my browser (but I have foriegn languages turned off too)
In any case nice pictures diagrams and cut-aways, places for the data which I am pretty sure is there but I was unable to see:
http://www.chez.com/mythicpanzers/Panzer_!_Le_Mythe/Panzers/2-MediumPanzers/2-Pz.Kpfw_IV-2.html#Ausf.H
not empty fields.... just pure WHITE text LOLOL
the moron who made that site should be shot :D
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Pyro,
For questions regarding Armored Fighting Vehicals, a good source for information and recommended source material would be the forum at the address listed below.
http://63.99.108.76/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=AFV+Forum&number=13&DaysPrune=10&LastLogin=
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With a tray system going over bumpy ground at 25 miles an hour youd think thered be 37mm rounds bouncing all over creation and falling out of their stupid little tray. Another thing when I put a few magazines through my 12 gauge the thing gets rather hot, But I had an ostwind the other day just held his trigger down at me for over a minute, As I was circling around him in my sturmovik. Must have went around him 6 complete times in circle 3k out from him and he sprayed the whole time. Shouldnt the accursed thing melt or start cooking off rounds or something?
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Originally posted by Mitsu
yes, if it's modelled, the ostie would be weakening, but it also would make the new tactics.
I'd like to see it.
Like this idea. 6 out, then some reload time. Great idea imho.
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Originally posted by Pyro
Mitsu, that gun was fed by clips but that did not require it to cease firing while another clip was loaded. Rather, the clips were simply inserted onto a feed tray(IIRC the tray could hold 2 clips at a time). As long as the loaders could toss clips on the feed tray faster than the gun fired them, there was no interruption.
For those of you who need a more visual reference, here's a picture:
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Originally posted by Fariz
Like this idea. 6 out, then some reload time. Great idea imho.
Instead what about having a key for reloading (and having a max of 2 clips loaded)
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i wanna know where the Osti had room for 1,000 rds? towed trailer? people running around outside the vehicle to transfer mags? (and the implications of this when it's under a straffing run).
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NIce model Shiva..Is that one of your's?
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Pyro if you guys are going to make armours as accurate to operate as at least I'd like to see here's one book you should get if you don't already have it:
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here's what that book has inside (http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/contents.gif)