Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Turbot on December 11, 2002, 01:30:34 PM
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I am confused - I was going to look up how well an Ostwind gun should do when I ran across an unexpected problem. The data I find on the Ostwind indicates a different gun than our AH uses.
Typical Example (So far all are saying same thing):
(http://www.skalman.nu/third-reich/bilder/ostwind.jpg)
Looks right, but...
Primary weapon 3.7cm Fla.K. 43
Ammunition 400 rounds
http://www.skalman.nu/third-reich/equipment-panzer-4-ostwind.htm
Others:
http://www.militarygameronline.com/Panzer/flak-panzer.htm - "The FlakPanzer IV "Ostwind" (East Wind) was similar to the Wirbelwind, which it was intended to replace, but carried the more powerful 3.7cm AA gun in a different turret. Only 43 were constructed. "
http://www.panzerworld.net/Ostwind.htm
I have found no reference at all yet for a Ostwind with a Flak 18 as main gun as listed in AH Help File data on Ostwind. Is this a typo?
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ammo load to 400 rouns would make it less effective as a town and field killer.
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I also read somewhere on this board that the main gun had 6- round clips that were manually loaded.
Sounds like a great idea to me. It might scale back the effectiveness enough to get it below what many people see as 'perk worthy'.
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Ostwind Gun Performance (If I looked up right one)
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/html/germany/guns.html
3.7cm FlaK 43 L/89
ammo PzGr18
ammo wieght lbs 1.4
Velocity 2,526'/s
100 meters 35mm penetration
500 meters 28mm
1000 meters 21mm
1500 meters 17mm
The Flak 18 - the AH Gun (if I am reading this stuff right - then it is indeed a typo in the AH Help Pages and we have somethign like above)
8.8cm (that would be 88mm) FlaK 18 L/56,
ammo type PzGr
ammo weight lbs 20.9
velocity 2,657'/s
100 meters 97
500 meters 93
1000 meters 87
1500 meters 80
2000 meters 72
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Handbook on German Military Forces, page 381, has a Flak 43 down as the type of gun used. The specs for the Flak 43 are on page 348, while the Flak 18 specs are on page 347. German Tanks of WW2, page 78, also states the Flak 43 was used. The magazine capacity of 4,216 rounds given in this book is WAY off. The 400 round figure above is correct.
The Flak 43 is differentiates from the Flak 18 as follows
Barrel length: 1 foot shorter
Weight: 1,120 lbs lighter (fixed implacement gun's weight)
Rate of fire: At least 140 rpm faster
It's been wrong since introduction. I don't know if it's only a typo, and Pyro used the Flak 43 specs. Or if Pyro stuck to the Flak 18 specs instead of using the correct gun.
And yes, only 43 Ostwinds were made.
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Originally posted by Citabria
ammo load to 400 rouns would make it less effective as a town and field killer.
Good point! Maybe it should be lowered to 400 even if other sources say it carried 1000 rounds.
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Turbot,
The 3.7cm FlaK 18 and the 8.8cm FlaK 18 both existed.
8.8cm FlaK 18 and 8.8cm FlaK 36 were basically the same weapon - differences were in sights used and minor differences in carriage between the 2 guns.
The 3.7cm FlaK 18 was the primary 3.7cm AA weapon of the German armed forces until early '44 (even then it was by far more common than the 3.7cm FlaK 43 ever was). The SdKfz based SPAA vehicles that carried 3.7cm weapons carried the FlaK 18 version.
Also, brief (German) gun glossary:
FlaK = AA gun (duh)
PaK = AT gun
KwK = vehicle mounted gun
7.5cm PaK 40 = 75L48 AT gun
7.5cm KwK 40 = 75L48 MA for Pz IVH, Pz IVJ
Mike/wulfie
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Enclyopida of German tanks of WW2 says the osty caried 1,000 rouds for the Main gun.
P111
Armament: one 3.7cm FlaK43/1 L/60 ammo 1,000 rounds.
On page 109 it does list for the 3.7cm Flak auf Fahrgestell, the Sd Kfz 161/3 which had the 3.7cm Flak43 L/60(a slightly different gun) an ammo load out of only 416 rounds, this was a total different AA tank, the Mobelwagen, the gun being mounted in the open when in use and enclosed with a very limited degree of fire forward when not being used as an aa tank, the sides folding down to provide a firing platform.
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The six round clips were loaded onto a tray which held 12 rounds total, as the gun consumed the first 6 the loader simply laid the next clip on the tray in this way continious firing was possable, the gun could fire till the tube melt or hell froze over or they ran outa ammo.
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Turbot, I do beleave those penatration figures are for penatration aganst a 30 degree slope at those ranges which would make that gun far more effective aganst the flat plate armor of the Panzer/osty, M3/M16.I have a referance that sights simmilar figures hear with me that is for that aganst a 30 degree slope.
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Originally posted by brady
Turbot, I do beleave those penatration figures are for penatration aganst a 30 degree slope at those ranges which would make that gun far more effective aganst the flat plate armor of the Panzer/osty, M3/M16.I have a referance that sights simmilar figures hear with me that is for that aganst a 30 degree slope.
The figures seem poor even so. I don't know if these guns were available with the PzGr 40 Hartkernmunition load used in the BK 3,7 (it used the same ammo) but this could penetrate up to 140mm/100m/90 degrees.
Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion
forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)
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I cant imagine a Vehical like this not cariing some AP ammo, seeing their is tons of evidance(photographic and otherwise ) indacating thier use aganst ground targets on numiours ocashions.
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Originally posted by Turbot
3.7cm FlaK 43 L/89
ammo PzGr18
ammo wieght lbs 1.4
Velocity 2,526'/s
100 meters 35mm penetration
500 meters 28mm
1000 meters 21mm
1500 meters 17mm
NOTE:
This performance is for the Panzergranate 18 shell, not the Sprenggranate 18 shell. The penetration tables are for AP solid-shot rounds, not the high-explosive shells that the Ostwind is firing in the game.
Look at Deutsche FlaK (http://www.achtungpanzer.de/dgflak.htm) (German) or the English translation (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.achtungpanzer.de/dgflak.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dpanzergranate%2B18%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26as_qdr%3Dall), and scroll down to 37mm FlaK, then look at the 'Model 43' column. The table also gives maximum ranges -- 6500m for ground fire, 4800m altitude -- that people can use to decide when they're out of range for firing at an aircraft; of course, most of the time, the range/altitude tradeoff isn't that easy to determine...
If you're going to give the Ostwind the armor penetration of the solid-shot AP round, then it's going to have to lose the blast effect of the HE round -- or the other way around. Or make Ostwind drivers make the same AP-vs-HE tradeoff that the PzKpfw IV drivers have to, and make them switch ammunition.
The 3.7cm FlaK 18/36/43 could fire HEI (high explosive incendiary -- 'Brandsprenggranate'), AP ('Panzergranate') with and without tracer, HE ('Sprenggranate') with tracer, incendiary ('Brandgranate') with and without tracer, and mine shells ('Minengranate' -- presumably the same type of shell as the 'Minengeschloss' round for the MG/FF and MG 151/20) with tracer. If you're going to give the Ostwind's shells the armor penetration of the AP shell and the blast effect of the HE shell, then do the same thing for the PzKpfw IV's ammunition loadout and drop all this crap about having to pick your AP/HE tradeoff. Or fix the Ostwind so that it's firing HE, not AP, and stop letting it carve Panzers into cheese.
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I have found the 1000 round ammo figure on several web sites and in the book Bradey mentioned. I think the 416 is a far more reasonable number...But the 1000 one is out there for sure.
Why a mobel wagon..that doenst have the turrent basket would carry half the number of rounds that the ostwind would carry is wierd.
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What I find most interesting in the data for the FlaK 43 is the listed rate of fire..250 rounds per mimute, if an accurate figure thats a lot of firepower.
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More important looking at the photo that gun could never fire 90 degrees straight up.
??????????????????
:confused: :eek: :cool:
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Dammit!!
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Still i have hope gunners would not be able to shoot straight up, because he wouldn't be able to aim through his sights.
anyone maybe know??
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Originally posted by Shiva
This performance is for the Panzergranate 18 shell, not the Sprenggranate 18 shell. The penetration tables are for AP solid-shot rounds, not the high-explosive shells that the Ostwind is firing in the game.
Not quite. As with all German AP shells of 20+mm except for the tungsten-cored PzGr 40 and 41, there was a cavity in the shot which was filled with HE (or sometimes incendiary material) and initiated by a base fuze.
In the case of the 37mm AP, this was 13g of Nitropenta. Not a lot, but a bit more than the 20mm Hispano HE.
Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and Discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)
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Even with the AP ammo, Ostwinds don't have especially good penetration numbers.
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/html/germany/guns.html
3.7cm FlaK 43 L/89
ammo PzGr18
ammo wieght lbs 1.4
Velocity 2,526'/s
100 meters 35mm penetration
500 meters 28mm
1000 meters 21mm
1500 meters 17mm
Yes these numbers are 30 degrees, they do that of course because most armor is angled.
panzer IV armor mm/angle:
Front Turret: 50/11
Front Upper Hull: 50 or 50+30/10
Front Lower Hull: 50 or 50+30/12
Side Turret: 30/26
Side Upper Hull: 30/0
Side Lower Hull: 30/0
Rear Turret: 30/10
Rear Upper Hull: 20/12
Rear Lower Hull: 20/9
Turret Top / Bottom: 10/83
Upper Hull Top / Bottom: 12/85
Lower Hull Top / Bottom: 10/90
Gun Mantlet: 50/0
even against another ostwind:
ostwind armor mm/angle:
Front Turret: 25/37
Front Superstructure: 80/10
Front Hull: 80/12
Side Turret: 25/30
Side Superstructure: 30/0
Side Hull: 30/0
Rear Turret: 25/30
Rear Superstructure: 20/11
Rear Hull: 20/9
Turret Top / Bottom: open
Superstructure Top / Bottom: 12/85-90
Hull Top / Bottom: 10/90
Gun Mantlet: 25/round
There are weak spots, but should be no easy armor kills for the ostwind here, even at close range. (Even with the mythical ammo load we have.) I think we are using HE ammo in AH - I say this because when I go to shoot at guns, close hits seem to do the job (i.e. you don't have to hit directly). As such HE ammo penetration - numbers I don;t have or looked for yet - will be much worse than AP figures at the top of this post.
Long and the short of it is, I feel Ostwinds are too powerful as an anti-armor platform. If somethign is in the gun range of the Ostwind as is, that something dies. This is odd for an anti-aircraft platform. (Only thing that saves some tanks now is being able to engage from greater distance.)
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I'm still puzzled by the penetration figures. The 20mm Flak could punch through about 40mm at short range, and the 37mm was considerably more powerful. The figures I have for the 37mm APHE are about 50 mm / 500 m / 90º or 40 mm at 60º. This is reasonable as the ammo was slightly more powerful than the 37mm PaK which could penetrate 48mm/500m/90 degrees.
Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and Discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)
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Even a slight slope can dramaticaly effect AP value, a slope of 30degreas may not seam like much but it has a substantial effect on pentration, the flat armored sides of the Panzer would make it easy meat for the Osty's gun at reasionable ranges, not to mention the rear plate.
IMO it is most likely a game play conshion that the osty's AP value is being reduced in the game, I always fet it was prety much bang on.
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i think the reduction in its penetrating ability is probably due to some new evidence that has changed htc's mind , purely because they wont change anything else without reems of info.
Then again maybe they are trying to make players use panzers,tigers and shermans to do the vehicle to vehicle fighting whilst ostwinds and m16s are left to AA duties.
I would imagine on a REAL battle field the AA guns are immediately ordered to retreat when tanks with 75mm appear over the horizon.Surely the AA tanks are there for a good reason, to stop aircraft. they were placed around key positions to protect from air attack so why would they risk them in a headlong dash at an enemy tank? I think personally that wouldnt have happened.
As to whether they loaded AP rounds i would have thought they would have wanted HE rather than AP for the reason HE works better against aircraft (their primary targets). Perhaps a few rounds for that emergency? who knows?
me? im glad its being changed and i hope its because of new evidence rather than a gameplay concession but as im getting a bit tired of dieing in a panzer to ostwinds that take a 75mm shell hit and still fire at me unharmed, I would think that wouldnt I :D
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Originally posted by brady
Even a slight slope can dramaticaly effect AP value, a slope of 30degreas may not seam like much but it has a substantial effect on pentration, the flat armored sides of the Panzer would make it easy meat for the Osty's gun at reasionable ranges, not to mention the rear plate.
True, but as I pointed out, even when striking at that angle, the AP shell of the FlaK gun should have penetrated around 40mm/500m, which is way better than the source quoted in earlier posts.
Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and Discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)
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Originally posted by hazed-
As to whether they loaded AP rounds i would have thought they would have wanted HE rather than AP for the reason HE works better against aircraft (their primary targets). Perhaps a few rounds for that emergency?
That would, I believe, be normal practice for any AA gun operating in the front line. It was for the British Bofors, for example.
Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and Discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)