Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: StSanta on December 12, 2002, 05:01:37 PM
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That I live my wife thread got me thinking about this again. We've probably been over it, but my memory isn't what it has been. I cannot even remember if it was what it used to be, whatever that means.
Anyway, regarding marriage. The pros: legal documentation. There are certain legal perks you get when you're married, including certain tax breaks, right to inherit and whatnot.
Another: a commitment from the person you love. Getting in is easy, getting out harder. And of course it is a mental commitment to stay true and love forever and all that.
Cons: stuck with one person. All individuals change over time, and you may grow apart. Divorce is messy, especially if children are involved. Expensive too; she/he gets half.
If we put the legal arguments aside, why get married? I can understand if religious people want Gods permission to shag away (to be blunt, inaccurate and rude). But otherwise?
She'll love you no more because of a piece of paper that says you're married. You can commit yourself to a partner fully without it. Indeed, getting married can be construed as an ownership issue and even as something to do with jealosy and distrust. By getting married, you put an extra moral obligation and sharpen up the lines, so to speak. but that's more out of selfish reasons than love, then.
So tell me. What is so great about marriage? You wake up next to the same woman, married or not.
What happens when you get married? How is you, your partner and your relationship different after you've slipped each other a ring, some tongue and gotten a priest or official to speak some words?
I just don't get it. My personal experience with marriage hasn't been a good one. parents relationship is stormy to say the least, and to me it seems like they stick together because they know what they have but not what they'll get. Essentially they're afraid to be lonely, especially as old age approaches. Perhaps if they weren't married they'd gone separate ways, dared to seek more fulfilling partners and not gone on and on like it is.
Why would anyone want to risk that, aside from legal or religious reasons?
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alot of times when dating or even living together you both aren't in the same place emotionaly or you think you are until the other person has a whole other idea of where you're at/going.
example (http://www.theonion.com/onion3846/lead_you_on.html)
marriage is an agreement where you both formally state where your at and what you intend. you make it clear to the person you are with- and witnessed by anyone you care enough about (or who can afford really good gifts) to invite- that from this day on you are no longer conscerned with ME so much as US.
basicly you agree to go ahead and stop holding back or preparing what to do after it's over and go ahead and put everything you have into the relationship
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...tend to agree with you, StSanta. After one bad round of my own, I found that not only did I not want a repeat, but I no longer wanted the lifestyle of the big M.
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Good question StSanta, very good question.
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And no easy answers really. I spent 15 years with a woman I came to untimatly hate. We have 2 children which suffered her bullchit cheating and overall stupidity. I have the knowledge and satisfaction of being able to say I told you so. This is the bad side of marriage.
Now....
I'm married again. For the first time I understand what real love is. Marriage doesn't make me love her any more than I did before I married her. Your right in that statment you made as far as I'm concerned. The thing that marriage does do is.....
Puts your lives in the same direction. It's really that simple. IMO no matter what some say , when you just live together there really is a way out. Weaker guys (or chitheads) will run at the first sign of maybe not getting what they want. They have that "Why buy the cow when ya get the milk free" thing. So , when the woman says hey..I want something more or says..you know..we should be married to continue...They just say screw it and leave. Which really means they never loved at all. So Marriage is that commitment. Saying that I am ready to not only spend the rest of your life with you , but SHARE the rest. Marriage is work sometimes. It's extremely easy others. I'm religious in that I believe in marrige. But , not to the extent that I didn't live with my wife before we married.
St.Santa
Man it's a tough question to answer for me...Wish I could give ya help..Ya seem to have some issues that ya want answers to. I've been on that crappy side of the fence. Tough after ya been thru the grinder to jump back in. But I suspect when you meet the right one you'll understand what marriage reall is. It can be and mean differnt things to alot of different people.
Hope ya find the answers ya want...This ramble probably didn't help. Best of Luck:)
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marriage is totally unnecessary and i wish more people would realize that. it would save them a lot of time but many people have to get married or their families will ostracize them or belittle them for religious reasons.
people get married for the stupidest reasons and it really diminishes the institution because 1/2 the time in america it ends in divorce. if you think you'll get bored with the same woman then don't get married! :)
when you make the commitment it's more than the piece of paper, you are making a partnership. you really do have to be best friends and all those other cliche things for it to be right. it can't have anything to do with money or status or any of that. it works for me, i love being married because my wife is fun to hang out with and all that, but the best advice i'd have is don't try to make a chance to get married, it really does 'just seem right' when it is.
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Why would anyone want to risk that, aside from legal or religious reasons?
My take:
The purpose of marriage is to bear and raise (grow and enrich physically and mentally) children in a stable home which provides the children with a solid model for their own relationships. If this is not your goal, then marriage is probably not for you. As you point out, other than tax benefits, there are not a whole lot of positives beyond what I said above.
PS By marriage I mean the lifetime committment to the other person, with or without the blessing of God depending on your faith or lack thereof. The legal institution doesn't mean diddly.
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You're asking the wrong group of people. There's really only one person that can answer this for you... the one you decide to spend the rest of your life with.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu
You're asking the wrong group of people. AKDejaVu
Agreed. :)
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There are no guarantees whatsoever such a person exists, though :)
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Originally posted by funkedup
The purpose of marriage is to bear and raise (grow and enrich physically and mentally) children in a stable home which provides the children with a solid model for their own relationships.
yeah that too- well i don't know if married people have to have kids... but if you're going to have kids, you'd better be married. that single parent toejam will never measure up no matter how hard they sell it.
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"that single parent toejam will never measure up no matter how hard they sell it."
Well I'd have a hard time saying that to someone who is busting their bellybutton every day to raise kids by themselves.
But yeah it's a suboptimal situation and should be avoided.
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For me,
it was time when my love for my wife was beyond even the slightest doubt.
eskimo
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Women only get married so that they can cut their hair short :D
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It's an oath and vow to your partner to become one (a team against the world) and to care for each other through thick and thin. It's typically performed in public in front of family and friends (or a bunch of Elvises in Vegas) who bear witness to the vows. Marriage isn't necessary, but it is comforting and reassuring to many. I don't see anything wrong with it.
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SEXISM RULES! :D
(Disclaimer: blah blah blah...)
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Santa,
As we say in Spain, "Each one talks about mass(religion) just how they get in with it"...more or less literal translation.
My experience has been wonderful so far. I really don't know what would be without the legal and religious bindings, but I do state that the "ties" have not been a problem at all.
I agree with you parents (both sides) are a problem, especially the first years. I'm a lucky guy, I have both mine and hers 600 Kms. away, so our run-in period has passed just fine, no interferences.
As for why is the marriage is so great, well...I focus it like a house. By far the interior is the most important and, at the very end, it's the part you can't live without. They are the feelings, the moral compromise and, above all, love. The legal, religious, social ties are the exterior. The part of the house seen by others. My personal take in this is (coincidence?) the same as for my real house. I like it to be clean, simple and beauty. Beauty is on the eye of the beholder, and so my marriage is beautiful for me. I don't care about what others might thing about it.
You can live a life with or without marriage. As you can live in a house with an imposing facade, a large garden, or in a tent, in the middle of a wood. Both perfect. Both with his pros and cons.
It's all a matter of personal beliefs and, thus, personal options. Each one has his own personal and unique arrangement that fits. The only tricky part is findin it. I've been immensely lucky so far.
Cheers,
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Well heres 2 sides.
My grandparents on my mom's side have been married for 71 years. Grandfather will be 100 December 16th. Grand mother will be 97 Jan 3rd. They Owned Tarbell Farms in upstate New York, Every weekend since they turned 45 was spent alone just the 2 of them no phones radio or tv's. (except holidays) My gramps built a cabin in the middle of the woods on our property. It had no elec or phone's so it was just the 2 of them alone. He told me about 10 years ago he thought that spending time together with no distractions, Kept them from growing apart, and they were each others best friend.
Now I know a couple that were married for 3 years, fought since 2nd year hated each other got divorced. met 2 years later started dating, They have been together for 30 years now as Boy friend girl friend, never remarried but had two boys now grown, They told me that being not married made you work harder on relationship, knowing other could leave at any time with no divorce, Just walk away.
I guess as I think of these two couples, and my marriage. I would say unless your going to work harder atmarriage than any thing else Don't get married, It takes alot of work to make a marriage work. I know I thought and others told me I had perfect marriage to my first wife, we were married for 13 years, She never went without what she wanted , Houses cabins cars.fur coats just about everything she wanted. Thought she was happy and thought I was happy. Wasn't till now that I met my new wife of 9 years did I see what I was missing in a marriage let alone what exwife was missing.
To those with money I'd say if you need prenup agrement. Don't get married.... If you don't trust her or him STOP now save yourself the hassle.
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One very important aspect of marriage is the fact that without it lineage is impossible. In a very Euro-modern world this is something that doesn't seem to matter. It does to me.
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Lineage will be there, in terms of DNA.
What changes in you, your partner and your relationship when you get married?
Thanks everyone for the excellent responses; they've given me something to ponder.
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Marriage?
Its so she can dress up, burn up lotsa money on a ceremony plus party, and get lotsa photos where she is the center of attention.
Also helps with the residency and getting her into the country :D
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I have been living for two months now with my gf. It was about time, we have been dating since 9 yrs. ago.
I don't need to get married for any special emotional reason, I already pretty much decided in all these years not to ever leave her until she goes away herself. But you get heavier taxes here if you are single. So I see it just as some paperwork I must do in order to get a tax cut and some benefits. And thats not related to loving her or inviting my family and friends to celebrate something, I tend to celebrate things with them anyway.
I have no pressure in my family to get married, but she has had the whole get-married-in-church-wearing-a-useless-expensive-white-dress idea deeply engraved in her mind by many somewhat "redneckish" members of her family so I'll end up having a religious wedding with a hundred people there that I don't really want to see.
And there is the "extortion" thing: as the wedding ends up costing an exhorbitant amount of money, here in Spain people feel pressured to instead of giving you some stupid present, just hand you 200,300 or 400 euro per person and I strongly refuse to do that to my friends and family just to invite the stupid wife of a cousin I have not seen since I was 4.
Of course I'll do it because I love her, but it pisses me a lot, because I must tolerate something I profoundly dislike, and help perpetuate a stupid irrational ceremony which would go away if those who don't want to get involved as myself were left alone by the rest.
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vulcan, what you describe is a wedding, not a marriage.
this confusion is another reason why many marriages fail. many women spend 10 times the effort making sure that their wedding is perfect, than the spend making sure their marriage is even sucessful.
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I got married 6 weeks ago,
I wouldn't change it for the world and no the "honeymoon" period we didn't have, first 3 weeks we were at each others throat (shoot she through a phone at me).
Having grown up without a dad, i do believe that when you have kids, you do need that solid mother/father marraige to work.
Now as we are working through our plroblems it is very nice to come home to someone that is looking forward ot being with you. It is also nice to know that I can trust my wife with anything I say and know that she won't tell anyone what is going on in life.
As funked said, it depends on the person, my wife and I wanted a family life, a commitment to God and commitment to each otherr, some others don't.
Some men likes to screw fat chicks, some like black chicks, some like blondes and some like males.
CB
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Originally posted by StSanta
Lineage will be there, in terms of DNA.
What changes in you, your partner and your relationship when you get married?
DNA? Come on. What if you are trying to prove that a person is your father and that person has moved to a different country and doesn't "want" to be found?
Marriage is a legal relationship...living with someone and spawning a few children may constitute a legal relationship in certain countries with respect to common-law, but not in others. In fact the common-law marriage concept arose because of the difficulties associated with lineage issues in "out of wedlock" relationships.
Furthermore, without a legally constituated marriage it is so very easy for couples to split up. When couples run into difficulties...which is inevitable in every relationship...it is just too easy to walk away and start over, without the legal ramifications of a separation or divorce. Sure it might involve similar emotional factors, but the real crux of any split up are legal in nature, for example: division of assets, living arrangements, vistation rights when children are involved etc.
The concept of "Let's not fall into that old fashioned marriage trap" is very shortsighted and frankly I think you guys in Europe will, in the next 20 to 50 years, start seeing all kinds of problems resulting from it. In my opinion it is not only a shortsighted alternative to marriage, but also a very selfish one.
Having said that, it is bound to make some family legal practices a great deal of money when they are hired to try and sort out the ramifications of these couples that "live in sin."
(I don't really think that they are living in sin...it is just an expression.)
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All I know about marriage is this:
-Glad I lived with a couple girls before choosing marriage...it prevented a couple of "future divorces"
-Glad I married when I was older, more set in my ways (age 30..read "stable" into that sentence..not prone to go out every night)
-I feel sorry for the rest of you saps, as I won the "wife Lottery" and married my best friend. The relationship grows stronger everyday.
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depends on temperment. I am not a team player and I do not do comprimise... I have never met a woman who has the same "goals" that I do.
Having said that... I am extremely glad that I have two children from two different marriages... the divorces were messy and expensive but... better thatn a life of blandness varied only by the excitement of fighting.. I have been a single parent and it is very difficult and I didn't do a very good job even tho I tried very hard. it all turned out ok tho... It allways does.
Any woman that I see more than 20-30 hours a week is just getting in my way of me doing what I would rather be doing. Some men don't feel that way.
I am older now and it is harder to overlook womens flaws... or they mine. If taken on an anual basis... I probly have more and better sex with women I see only once a week than with those I have been married to or lived with... In any case it works for me.
I do believe that parents should stay together to raise their children.. it is simply a matter of personal responsibility... no worse than getting up to run a cement mixer every day... I've done both.
Taxes? not much of a break anymore.. inheretance? sheesh... if there is anything left it goes to my kids.
lazs
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StSanta - I believe that you approach the question from the wrong perspective - that is if you a interested in a philosophical discussion rather than getting a recipy for achieving your personal goals - which you'd have to specify.
Historicaly, morals and rules governing the society are not products of either instinct - biologically programmed inclinations, or a reason - someone intentionally producing a rule that would have have a desired long-term effect.
Morals and rules evolved - all kinds appeared at one time or another in different places and those that promoted welfare and spread of the carrier populations are those that came to be the dominant ones.
Obviously those morals only worked when they were enforced - in fact a belief that morals should be enforced is one of the traditions that evolved too. The enforcement took the form of religious cannon, strong traditions with penalties by society or state laws based on prevailing morals.
There could be no rational justification for those morals without using any goal specified by the same moral system. So we cannot rationally speak of the reasons for them to exist but can explain mechanisms of their origin and existance.
Those morals survived and spread that were good at survival and spreading. As simple as that. Same as genes.
The morals certainly did not evolve to make people subjectively happy - any such effect is purely coincidental. In many cultures eutanasia of elderly or infanticide developed because they were conducive to survival - not happiness.
No real reason for people not to go with morals that mandate other arrangements than marriage. Many tried. It's just that after many generations they have not many living descendants.
Of couse it all worked untill socialist philosophers started dismantling our society "irrational" morals - especially those supported by religion - without appreciating how much our society was based on them. I find no issue, BTW, with a desire to improve the morals and customs - as long as you know what you are doing and only dismantle things when a suitable substitute is found.
So our society changes. One of the reasons why many more people are now having marital problems is that morals and customs that ensured children being prepared to assume the roles of a husband and wife have deteriorated.
For better or worse, people were "trained" what to do and what to expect as a spouse - so even arranged marieages were way more successfull becasue people fit each other's expectations.
Modern parenting and educational practices ensure that people entering the marriage are much less compatible that they were.
Laws and customs making divorce or unmarried cohabitation more prohibitive disappeared.
Technology providing abundance of wealth and socialist state redistributing that wealth ensure that penalty to the survival of progeny are not only removed but reversed - "illicite" incontinent procreation is actively promoted.
That's where we are today.
BTW, the same dismantling is happening with evolved morals concerning private property, value of an individual and personal freedom.
That is not a moral judgement - just an observation. If our society ever experiences hardship, we will either lose a lot of population, or be given an excuse to establish a completely totalitarian system and then lose a lot of population. Of course it may not happen in our time - more likely in our children's or grandchildren's.
miko
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I think some people get married for the wrong reasons...If she isn't your best friend to start with,it will probably not last the kids/years/money woes etc..
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Marriage suxs...period. I hate my wife.....
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SirLoin: I think some people get married for the wrong reasons...If she isn't your best friend to start with, it will probably not last the kids/years/money woes etc..
That woudl probably work for some - but it would not be representative of a majority of successfull marriages.
Marriage is not about being best friends but about fitting specific distinct roles according to each other expectations.
As a universal recipy for a man I would suggest waiting untill about 28 years old taking that time to acquire experience, education, go through military service and get a start on a career. Take that time to experience affairs with older women - to learn what creatures they are and where their buttons are. Don't hesitate to ask for advice on dealing with girls. Older (even if just by 2-3 years plus women mature faster than men anyway) women love educating young inexperienced boys and you do not have to worry about consequences.
Then find an 18-year old girl from a good family background with acceptable genes and court her, marry her and using women's natural malleability (to a degree) mold her to your specs till she is about 24. After that you are stuck with what you have and any changing would have to be done by you - and you better love the result.
Have kids as early as you can. Risks, problems and grandparent's health only gets worse with age. Do not go crazy over career past earning enough to live on and have her stay home or at least not take her job seriously.
Of course there can't be any frienship between a mature man of 28-30 and dumb ignorant female creature of 18. That would have to wait till she is older.
miko
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lol
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Does anybody else here read Miko's posts aloud using the voice of Peter Sellers' Dr. Strangelove? :)
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Originally posted by funkedup
Does anybody else here read Miko's posts aloud using the voice of Peter Sellers' Dr. Strangelove? :)
lol- sort of but more russian.
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It worked for me - in fact my wife - who I started courting when she was 18 - is now undisputed head of the household. She runs our life. I only make rare decisions like buying houses, investing money and changing jobs. :) :) :)
miko
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Originally posted by Curval
The concept of "Let's not fall into that old fashioned marriage trap" is very shortsighted and frankly I think you guys in Europe will, in the next 20 to 50 years, start seeing all kinds of problems resulting from it. In my opinion it is not only a shortsighted alternative to marriage, but also a very selfish one.
Having said that, it is bound to make some family legal practices a great deal of money when they are hired to try and sort out the ramifications of these couples that "live in sin."
(I don't really think that they are living in sin...it is just an expression.)
I'm interested in what problems you forsee Curval.
We have lived together for 10 years (since our early 20s) and we have a 1 yr old son. We have formal parental responsibilty agreement for me -
(amusing aside: In the UK the parental responsibility agreement is usually 'served' on absentee fathers. They were really freaked when we went in and I wanted to sign one - like it didn't compute.)
- that names me as the responsible father. Lineage is fully recorded on birth certificates, and inheritance is ensured through an up to date will.
We are often asked at weddings when we will get married. When we say never, we are always asked to explain ourselves.
We simply couldn't find a single good reason to get married, so why do it?
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What do you guys think about polygamy ?
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Originally posted by Samm
What do you guys think about polygamy ?
no way- you should have only one wife you respect. but it's ok to have concubines i think. as long as they live in the same house and the wife can order them around. if they were all wives it'd get too squeaky and competitive.
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Originally posted by bounder
I'm interested in what problems you forsee Curval.
None in your case..you have a formal parental responsibility agreement and you seem to have all the bases covered. So I cannot argue the point with you. But your case is a rare one.
Does the child have your last name, or your partners..out of curiousity?
Is there common law marriage in the UK now? Are you considered legally married in the UK after living together for say 2 years?
If you and your partner split up, who keeps the child? In this event would you be bound to pay your partner any form of support, or just for the child?
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I've gone through and read all of these posts and the closest to how I feel about marriage is bounder's situation.
no kids, no tax breaks, no paper, and no church.
lots of love, but then that's why we're together and why we remain together.
still no reason that I can see to marry.
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Interesting enough.
It boils down to this:
Legal papers and money. Requirement from extended family. A snare that makes it more difficult for both parts in a relationship to break up.
Not exactly a rose guarden, the reasons to get married :D.
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Marriage is great! Kids make it better.... If ya have 2 or 3 kids and time it right, you won't have to mow the lawn, do the dishes or sweep the floor for over 25 years!
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No matter what you may think marriage is before you enter in to one, you'll find it is not at all what you thought.
:D
29 years in February. Still happy. But it's not what I thought it was 30 years ago... heck, it's different from 10 years ago.
There ya go.
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Originally posted by StSanta
Interesting enough.
It boils down to this:
Legal papers and money. Requirement from extended family. A snare that makes it more difficult for both parts in a relationship to break up.
Not exactly a rose guarden, the reasons to get married :D.
I suppose you are right, when you look at the arguments I brought forward, which are more practical reasons than emotional.
It all boils down to personal feelings about the institution of marriage. I have had this debate with a friend of mine from Denmark when he was with his girlfriend that he came to the island with. The two of them were dead set against marriage and having children, and came up with many of the same arguments you put forward. Ironically they split up and he is with another girl.
He and his new girlfriend are looking to get married in May or June of 2003. I'm willing to bet that they have kids within two years.
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Originally posted by Curval
None in your case..you have a formal parental responsibility agreement and you seem to have all the bases covered. So I cannot argue the point with you. But your case is a rare one.
you're right there, but there is evidence showing that in the UK at least showing that we are less unique than we were.
Does the child have your last name, or your partners..out of curiousity?
My last name. I was all for changing our name (all 3 of us) by deed poll, (marriage not necessary) to something like, oh, I fon't know, Rothschild or Soros or von Richthofen, but all of the grandparents promised revolt if we did. I'm not hung up on names. My family name dates back 100 years when my great grandad worked in a bank with another guy with the same surname. The bank manager ordered them to both change their names to avoid confusion. Like I say, I can trace my family back a lot further than my family name, which has changed a lot.
Is there common law marriage in the UK now? Are you considered legally married in the UK after living together for say 2 years?
Yeah common law marriage is that, but it doesn't carry much weight in the courts or anything. It doesn't necessarily indicate next-of -kinship for example.
If you and your partner split up, who keeps the child? In this event would you be bound to pay your partner any form of support, or just for the child? [/B]
We'd both have equal claim over custody. I would also be required to pay some child support, depending on her income.
To my mind, if it ever came to us splitting up, what was best for the boy would completely dictate my actions in the matter.
The institution of marriage is certainly not what it was (institutionalised slavery). Today I see it as a hangover from history, when a union of families was least about the couple getting married, and more about financial and property calculations. This is not unique, dowries are a popular form of marriage contract the world over.
All of that and the need (pressed by my and her parents) that we would *have* to have a wedding if we got married. Don't get me wrong, I love weddings, but if I had the kind of money to spend on a wedding, the last thing I'd spend it on would be a wedding.
I have no objections to marriage, but I do think that my contemporaries who have got married (most of them) haven't thought that hard about it, and are just doing it because 'it's the next logical step' and 'it's the done thing'.
Our relationship is between us. I don't care for publicising it in the style of grand public declarations.
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Originally posted by bounder
I love weddings, but if I had the kind of money to spend on a wedding, the last thing I'd spend it on would be a wedding.
Our relationship is between us. I don't care for publicising it in the style of grand public declarations.
So basically it boils down to legal documents and money for me..according to Santa. For you it appears to just be about money.:p
Sorry if my public declaration of love for my wife in that other thread offended your sensibilities. Maybe if you were married you would understand why I would do such a henious thing?
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horses for courses Curval. It would be wrong of me to suggest anyone should not get married, and many of my friends are married and that is cool. Just not for me. My words about marriage may have been a bit derogatory, not the intention.
In the 'old days' marriage was a method of forming (within the ruling classes at least, peasants didn't get married much) strategic alliances between families. The poor schmucks who had to actually say the vows often had little to do with it.
But if you get married for the right reasons, who am I to argue?