Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: TheCage on December 14, 2002, 06:48:12 PM
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Was checking out WWII Online and they finally got the He-111. Wonder when they will get it here in AH :)
He-111 film clip (http://www.playnet.com/downloads/v16_111.wmv)
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<~~been fighting for that poor old war dog for a year now,,,but more people want { weird and unsual} hardly produced planes instead of front line main bombers ,,there are lots of othere countries lacking stuff,,so i understand,,russians need more things,,a pby would help fill the set,,but sooner or later,,too have a full ww2 front line plane set,,you need liberator,,,he111,,,,and maybe a pby sence so many countries made the things,,lol how can you have B.O.B with out the he111,,just aint right,,and italy needs a bomber,,he111 was the best bomber italy produced
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No doubt the He111 will be introduced at some stage in the future but HTC have to think about other aircraft that are/will be important to the MA. Perhaps the introduction on the Mission Theatre will prompt the historically important aircraft such as the He111 or Do17. We'll have to wait and see!
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The WWIIOL implementation of the He-111 has one serious detail flaw -- the bombs don't drop right. In the He-111, the bombs hang vertically nose up; this produces a distinctive 'flip' when the bombs leave the plane (presumably increasing the scatter), as opposed to the smooth nose-forward departure you see on other planes.
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i would like to see the do217<~~looked like a cool plane,,the he177,, ju188,,were a little late,,but were atleast used,,,,but nothing like the he111,,ju88 and do217,,,he111 was a test platform for raido controlled bombs and v1 missles,,and guided missles,,,and a nice 120mm cannon you could replace the bomb load with<~~wow wouldnt that be wild to use on base and tanks,,lol
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O god....
dont get me started......
I will keep this short, if for no other reasion as to safguard my own sanity.
AH does not nead a He 111, or Do 217.
If Ah is to get any new German bomber the He 177 is the only worth while one to model, any argument to the contrary is mearly a veiled atempt to argure for their favorate plane rather than what could be best for the plane set.
Germany has a very nice plane set at present and realy does not neaed another bomber, Russia, Italy and Japan are all in far greater nead of somthing on this line than Germany is.
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Originally posted by Replicant
No doubt the He111 will be introduced at some stage in the future but HTC have to think about other aircraft that are/will be important to the MA. Perhaps the introduction on the Mission Theatre will prompt the historically important aircraft such as the He111 or Do17. We'll have to wait and see!
Not to be rude Replicant, but just exactly how can one of the most produced bombers on the axis side not be important to the MA? I am no fan of buffs to begin with, but guess what both the He-111, He-177, and Do-17 have as an important role as will the Soviet Pe2, Kate, and Sally. Saying it is not so just IMHO is not right. Plane sets should be added, again IMHO, in accordance with their production numbers. Adding a plane just to say we have a plane from that country is b.s. There are lots of important buffs missing, as well as utility and fighters. The whiners will cry when I mention the B-24J, B-29A, B-25J, A-26B, Helldiver, and PV2. But just because they are US designs does not make them less important than say a country that had 200 aircraft of one type and are not represented. We need the mass produced aircraft in this game, Mission oriented or not, they need to be represented.
Originally posted by Brady
AH does not nead a He 111, or Do 217.
If Ah is to get any new German bomber the He 177 is the only worth while one to model, any argument to the contrary is mearly a veiled atempt to argure for their favorate plane rather than what could be best for the plane set.
Brady, I think your opinion is valid, that the He177 is needed, but to leave out the He-111 and Do-17 is pure horse poo. They are both significant to the historacal nature of the game. You can not argue that.
Hope to see many more plane types brought here soon.
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he 111 will never get used it would be a complete waste of time to model it.
He 111 wont survive in the main no matter what version. Bombers are irrelevant in the main as they cant keep pace with 50 man base rape auger missions.
Bombers are mostly used now to dive bomb and ack star and the he 111 will suck at both.
I would go as far to say if it aint 44 or 45 dont waste the time even modelling it. Planes were developed to keep pace or to get/keep the advantage over the nme. Even in ah events plane type is irrelevant for the most part because most are object based. Any advantage a fighter or bomber had is offset by the type of gameplay this entails.
In the main its about "war winning" not air combat or any of that. Its the reset that matters. In events its "kill the building or capture the flag no matter the cost" and you win.
Chew on that ;) :p :D
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The He111 won't survive in the MA, but we're all under the assumption that it will be modelled for the MA. As I mentioned earlier, it really depends how successful the Mission Theatre becomes when it's introduced. Here it will find a niche as HTC will post missions with certain aircraft and basically you'll have to take the aircraft if your side has any chance of winning.
The Mission Theatre will be good for the lesser or weaker type aircraft because they should hopefully be used more.
Regards
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Man I am geting prety board with all this.
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I think your over estimating the appeal the mt will get. Do a search on the excitement and call for the combat theater. Then check the actual number of participants.
Everyone and his brother loved the ct and couldnt wait to fly there. Same with the p40. Folks said how much they loved it and would fly it but its a hanger queen.
And like Brady this is pretty boring so instead of carrying on the same discussion over and over I will leave it with yas.
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I wouldent say its a hangar queen. I regularly get 4 kill's in it. Its highly underestimated. And when it come to killing La7's its a good place to start.
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AH does not nead a He 111, or Do 217
<~~well i dont think the germans thought that !! the do217 killer bomber,,the he111 was very importaint to the italy and germany,,the late model had good guns and no matter what you think,,it would be used alot more if it had all its little goodies,,,that plane was a transformer,,lol
the he177 good bomber if you could keep it from killing its own crew members,,,it was a flying junk pile most of the time,,lol,sure the performace was good,,but i think it killed more of its own men,,then anything else<~~why would ya want a bomber that was hardly used compared to the long used do217 and he111?
Man I am geting prety board with all this
thats fine,,lol,,,if you like it or not,,aces high is a ww2 simulator!!<~~you seem to forget that?,, so whats the problem adding the most popular bombers to the germans and italy? just because you dont like them?,,,that dont sound like a good reason to me,,,like it or not!! those are the most popular bombers the germans had in ww2!!<~~kinda like not giving the usa a b17 or british a mossy,,doesnt matter if you dont like them,,they were used more than any bomber in ww2 on axis side
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Brady, I think your opinion is valid, that the He177 is needed, but to leave out the He-111 and Do-17 is pure horse poo. They are both significant to the historacal nature of the game. You can not argue that
<~~very well putt
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Originally posted by Shiva
The WWIIOL implementation of the He-111 has one serious detail flaw -- the bombs don't drop right. In the He-111, the bombs hang vertically nose up; this produces a distinctive 'flip' when the bombs leave the plane (presumably increasing the scatter), as opposed to the smooth nose-forward departure you see on other planes.
thats not really "serious" flaw.
More like minor detail you're talking about.
I think only IL2 actually models it right, of all the games around.
However theres quite good detail used as well in WWIIOL - only sim where 109 whole horizontal stabilizer is trimmed instead of control surfaces.
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WWII has the 111
We have a flight modell !
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Geez, lufties getting pretty upset about asking for a German plane!
Remember, the main topic is:- Was checking out WWII Online and they finally got the He-111. Wonder when they will get it here in AH
So when we've run out of aircraft to model you still don't want the He111?
I've always been open minded and very optimistic about requests for particular aircraft. Just because it's not survivable in the MA doesn't mean it should not be modeled. Easy targets could be applied to quite a few in AH but they still get used, albeit a lot less than many others. All 'The Cage' is asking is when it might arrive here. No one knows but no doubt it will do at some stage. To then argue saying it's crap is rubbish because it may or may not even arrive. It really depends on what priorty HTC gives the MT over the MA. They have introduced quite a few scenario type planes such as the Spit I, Hurr I, SBD, Val, Kate, Ju87, etc...
Of course we need other bombers from other countries (there's many a very important and survivable bombers missing from most countries), but this topic is NOT about that, The Cage has asked about the He111 so calm down everyone! ;) I just can't understand the hijacking and put down by some people on this BBS!?
Of course I'd love to see a He177, or even something from Russia or Japan, but that has nothing to do about this topic!
Regards
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Originally posted by Bodhi
Not to be rude Replicant, but just exactly how can one of the most produced bombers on the axis side not be important to the MA? I am no fan of buffs to begin with, but guess what both the He-111, He-177, and Do-17 have as an important role as will the Soviet Pe2, Kate, and Sally.
I think you've totally misunderstood me. I'm all for any inclusion of aircraft into AH. I totally agree that it's one of the most important aircraft but HTC may prefer to introduce more survivable aircraft into AH before they choose the He111. It all comes down to what priorities they have, whether they go for the MT or the MA. For example, if the MT turns into a success (??) then it may be high on their list. If it isn't a success then it'll most likely drop down their list for the MA.
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when i asked the same thing cage did long time ago,,i got the same responce from the same people,,lol<~~they dont like the plane for some reason,lol,,and it shouldnt matter if they like it or not,,it was a very importaint peice of the war
it sad too see a bomber left out,,like the liberator and he111,,just because some one didnt like it,,,,those 2 bombers i just mentioned are the some of the most produced bombers on each side<~~and did most of the work,,,if you leave them out ,it is just wrong,,this is a ww2 simulator it should have atleast the most produced planes first
i too like funny weird planes that were hardly used,,but shouldnt we have the most used planes first? right?,,lol
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I think you've totally misunderstood me. I'm all for any inclusion of aircraft into AH
me too,,i think every ww2 plane should be in here,,but,,shouldnt the most produced be here first?
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I have been one that flies many of the scenarios in the SEA. One of the sorely needed aircraft needed for the BOB is the He-111. That is the only reason I was asking. There are a great many other planes that are needed to make the scenarios in the SEA more historical and should in my opinion be modeled before any more late war planes. The French aircraft are non-existent in this game and many Russian, British, Australian, Japanese, and Italian planes don't exist. Some of the smaller countries even had aircraft that showed they were equal to the best of the German aircraft aren't even considered and some of those aircraft flew throughout the war. FYI I am not a buff pilot, I fly P-38's in the MA.
Here is a list of just bombers and they're production numbers although it doesn't cover every bomber type produced.
German:
* Ju-88 - 14,980
He-111 - 7,300
Do-217 - 1,730
Do-17 - 1,200
He-177 - 980
Fw-200 - 276
* Ar-234 - 274 (includes 30 prototypes, and 20 pre production)
Russian:
Pe-2 - 11,427
Db-3 - 6,800
Sb-2 - 6,656
Tu-2 - 2,527
Pe-8 - 81
British:
Wellington - 11,462
* Lancaster - 7,377
Mosquito - 6,535
Halifax - 6,176
Blenheim - 3,296
Whitley - 1,814
Italian:
S.M. 79 - 1,370
P.108 - 182
Japanese:
Ki-21 - 2,064
Ki-46 - 1,742
* Ki-67 - 698
GM4 - 2,446
American:
* A20 - 7,385
A-26 - 2, 450
* B-17 - 12,731
B-24 - 18,482
B-25 - 9,816
* B-26 - 4,683
B-29 - 3.960
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Hi Bodhi,
>Plane sets should be added, again IMHO, in accordance with their production numbers.
That certainly is one possible criterium.
However, production numbers neglect capability, and on a server without historical planeset changes, an older plane produced in higher numbers might be a worse choice than a more capable aircraft of lower production.
If you select capability as criterium, you'll find that the current planeset already has a Luftwaffe medium bomber (Ju 88) and a Luftwaffe high-speed bomber (Ar 234), but no Luftwaffe heavy bomber yet.
The He 177 fits this description, and since more than 800 aircraft rolled off the lines, it certainly qualifies as mass-production type.
The He 111 would be a great alternative for a Luftwaffe medium bomber and should be added to the game for its historical significance, but not for the merit of higher production numbers alone.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Luftwaffe medium bomber and should be added to the game for its historical significance, but not for the merit of higher production numbers alone.
good quote,,now the he111 was very importaint in the spanish rev,,and impotaint to b.o.b,,and it would give italy a bomber it really needs sence it dont have any<~~italy was a powerfull country back then,,and desurve a bomber too,,so i guess there are a few reasons for it too be here than just production numbers,,historicaly it merits being in here
but i understand there are so many planes out there to be added, the he177 would be a great plane!! but would it burn up once and a while for no reason like the real thing?,,it was a very pain in the butt bomber,,full of problems and wasnt used as much,,,im sure if its added people will use it like crazy! just because unlike the real plane,, im sure the aces high version wont catch on fire all the time and kill the crews on the take off strip,,lol i think it was the only german bomber that killed more of its crews then the enemy,,lol
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However, production numbers neglect capability, and on a server without historical planeset changes, an older plane produced in higher numbers might be a worse choice than a more capable aircraft of lower production
So what your saying is that 2/3 of the plane set were a waste of HTC time? I don't think so.
I think historical importance should be the first consideration, not whether it will in your opinion survive in the MA. The P-40 is a 1930's fighter that seems to do well in the MA when flown by good sticks. Same goes for the Zero and Hurricanes. When it comes to shooting down bombers I think the B-26 is the toughest while the A-20 makes a great bomber and in some cases a good fighter.
As far as the 177 goes the crews use to call it the "Flying Coffin" as was as good of a plane as the F-111 was. It too was considered a flying coffin also. Both planes were dismal failures.
What I don't understand is where you think the He-177 would fair any better then the He-111. The 111 was known for being a tough bird and it's saving graces were that toughness. The He-177 was structurally unsound and would be easier to knock out of the sky then the Boston we currently have now. It's engines were totally unreliable, and caught fire more often then not. As was stated before, it killed more crews then any enemy action did. Pilots and crew hated the bird to no end and so the nickname flying coffin came about. If HTC modeled all this into the plane I seriously doubt anyone would bother to fly it.
Lastly the biggest difference besides bomb loads were the fact the He-111 was designed to be a level bomber. The He-177 was designed to be a massive dive bomber which it could not do. Heinkel himself knew it was a mistake and tried to correct the problem but the RLM didn't want to hear it. At his own expense he created the He-277 which was the same plane but with four engines that actually turned out to be a much superior bomber. Again the RLM told Heinkel to cease and desist, and the project was abandoned.
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oohh the 4 engine one,,aint that the plane they flew over new york city? really high about 40,000 feet or somthing?,i seena thing on discovery talking about it once,,and said it was the only german bomber that could fly to usa and back,,and the only bomber that did it!!,,lol
but yes,,he111 is a good bird,,and there aint one plane on aces high i dont use!!<~~i use everyone of them,,from the sbd to the c47 to the bf109,,you name it i fly no matter how bad of a plane some people think it is,,,and from what the crews say,,the he111 was a good plane,,,and very well armored,,and the late model had a good gun aray:)
the he177 was a coffin,,it looks cool,,and the performance sounds like its the best! but when you see how much the crews liked it,,you will get a good idea how crappy the plane really was,,lol i would like too see it anyways,,lol i think every ww2 production plane desurves to be seen<~~including planes that are not popular
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Hyena the plane your thinking of was the Ju-390 (Bomber version). It had a 6,027 mile range and flew right up to the 12 mile limit off the cost near New York in October of 1943. America bombers that were considered were a modified version of the Bv-222 flying boat, and the Ultra long range Me-264, which resembled the B-29 but with twin tails. Max range on the Me-264 was 9,321 miles. Only one prototype was built and tested. Due to Allied bombing of the factory, the project was canceled.
The RLM had two plans for the 264. One was to fly a lighter load, bomb the US then return home. The second idea was to carry the max load, bomb the US, then ditch in the Atlantic near a Uboat. How ever fighter production at that time became more important so the America bombers were shelved. The last project to get around building bombers was the V3 rocket. If completed would of been the first iintercontinental rocket. It would of been able to hit cities along the US coast.
Here is a little known fact, the He-111 was upgraded once with four engines. It was called the He-116, but never was used as a bomber. Only six were built, and those were used for high altitude photo recon only.
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wow,,i never seen that version of the he111,,lol,,and i know they used the he111 for lots of experiments,,it could do about anything,,launch bombs,,rockets,,guided bombs,,i love seeing the version with the 120mm cannon,,,looked like it could rock a few bases,,lol
ok,,i wasnt sure of the name of the plane that flew next to new york,,i new it was a 4 engine plane,,and hitler didnt want any 4 motor planes till it was too late,,too stuck in the past,,lol,,so i figured it had to be one of them planes,,lol but you know your planes ,,,,most people wouldnt have any idea what i was talking about:)
ya the v3 would of been messed up,,or that catipilar gun they were planning to use on england,,now that thing was a monster,,wildest lookin gun i ever seen,lol
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He-116
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BoB won't be a BoB without a He111.
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I actually want to see the He177 in AH, what do u want with the He111? yeah nice plane, but it´s not better then the Ju88 we currently have..
But why not the He177? yeah i know it´s big problems with his engines and structural limits, but i think we will get the Me163 with the next Patch?! It´s just the same catastrophe with that plane, hard to land and it had even big take-off problems, even 80% of the Me163 were caused by technical problems.
But that problems will be not simulated in AH (correct me if i am wrong), but we still get it, so why don´t we get the He177 with 12klb Bomb load and much better defensive abilities then the He111? Oh and btw the He177 Greif was designed as a 4engine-plane, and it has 4Engines (2 x 2-linked-DB603 or 2x 2-linked DB601 engines, the He277 got 4single DB603 engines)
Ok thank u for listening my broken english and just keep in mind, that´s only my opinion. ;)
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yeah he 111 (or any axis bomber) would be nice
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wow,,that is very cool:) never seen the 4 engine model before,,,im sure it did pretty good for its self
and i wanna see the he177 in here too,,and as for the me163,,well the he111 should of been here way before the komet,lol,,,first german planes that should of been added to aces high,is the stuka,,,,bf109,,,ju88,,,he111,,,,,the he111 is little tuffer than a ju88,,takes more hits and carries a little bigger bomb load,,but its all so slower,,,and you cant have b.o.b with out the he111,,and like i said tons of times,,italy needs a bomber,,and the he111 was italy's favorite bomber produced,,but for production numbers and historical value it should be in here
the ar 234 should not be here sence only 30 of them were made,,lol,,and i think only a 100 comets made,not sure about that,,but i know there wasnt many,,,its funny that we even have to fight for a plane that was historicaly used more than most german bombers<~~its allmost like not giving the usa a b26 or b17
and anothere importaint plane being left out,,is the old pby cat<~~are long range daddy,,lol,,produced in 3 diffrent countries,,even by russian<~~it was one of the best bombers russian had,lol
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its great hearing what all the h2h moochers want
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You are correct Blunder....the 177 was a four engine plane with either two DB-601 or DB-605 that were linked together driving a single propeller. Those engines became the DB-606 and DB-610. The first of eight prototypes flew in December of 1939 followed by 35 pre-production types in November of 1941. Of the first eight prototypes, six crashed mainly due to structural failures or engine fires. Although the structural problems had mostly be fixed the engine problems still remained.
The design factor behind the He-177, was the result of a stupid requirement by the RLM that all bombers must be able to dive bomb. So the logical solution was a twin propeller driven by four engines to streamline the design, and allow it to carry a much larger bomb load. Heinkel knew the simplest way to cure the problems with the 177 was to use four separate engines. In his first attempt he created the He-274, but Goering got so fed up with Heinkels incessant requests that he expressively forbid any more mention of the project. Heinkel obeyed the order but secretly started to work on the He-277.
When completed and everything turned out as expected he told Hitler that this bomber could now meet all the demands for a new bomber. Hitler then told him to build it and it became officially the He-277. But July 1944 the whole thing came to a halt as he was ordered to build nothing but fighters. While I agree the He-177 in the way it would be modeled here in AH would not represent the 177 plague with the RL problems would be a good bomber for AH. But starting this threat was only meant to bring the He-111 in the game for the BOB in the SEA.
There are many other planes that need to be in the line up for the SEA. Both Japanese and Russian aircraft. But during the BOB, the Ju-88 was a minor participant and the He-111 was the main bomber. The chief reason the He-111 was chewed up so badly during the BOB was due to the lessons learned in Spain. At the time it was faster then the contemporary fighters. Because of this it was lightly armed with only three machine guns.
By the time the BOB happened it was no longer faster then the fighters, but the argument remained the same. Another factor lay in the fact the once the British fighters engaged the bombers, they did not remain in formation but rather split up. Everyone knows what happened to lone American bombers when they fell out of formation. The mutual defense was lost and the bombers fell easy prey. Secondly the Me-110 was not a viable escort (note: Had the Fw-187 been used it would of been different) and the Me-109's without a drop tank had only 10-20 minutes of combat time over England. This left the bombers to fend for themselves where without escorts were easily shot down.
The same lessons were learned the hard way by the 8th Airforce later on with the B-17 and B-24 bomber missions flying without any escort. It was the same reason the the British opted to fly bomber missions only at night in hopes to keep their bomber losses down. Which brings me to the after BOB battle. The Germans also started the night raids which also greatly lowered their loss rate with the bombers. As a note here even the Ju-88 were no better off to the onslaught of the British fighters. They too were shot down in large numbers.
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Wotan I pay my $15 a month just like you do and I won't stoop down and dignify a comment to your statement.
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its great hearing what all the h2h moochers want
moochers huh?,,i paid my 15 bucks a while ago ,,just because i cant afford it right now,,doesnt give you the right to call me or anyone names<~~~just shows your lack of respect for players,,just because they dont pay,,doesnt mean they dont want to,and doesnt give you the right to mock them for there opinion's
and anyone can say there peace on this message board,,if they fly aces high or not
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Wotan I pay my $15 a month just like you do and I won't stoop down and dignify a comment to your statement.
very well said<~~but i had to stoop a little,,jk!!
like it or not,,the he111 should be here,,its a popular ww2 bomber,,just like the liberator and pby cat<~~which would help out the russians sence they got crappy bombers anyways,,russians never made any good bombers till after the war,,,most of there bombers were slow moving pigs,,the he111 would seem like a hot rod compared to the stuff the russians flew for bombing runs,,no better than old cargo planes pretty much
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Hi Cage,
>So what your saying is that 2/3 of the plane set were a waste of HTC time?
No. What I'm saying is that aircraft capability provides a rational guide to prioritizing arena plane development.
>It's engines were totally unreliable, and caught fire more often then not.
The same could be said about the early Typhoon or Super Fortress aircraft. The He 177A-5 was greatly improved in that respect over the early He 177A-3.
>The He-177 was designed to be a massive dive bomber which it could not do.
So was the Avro Manchester, which provided the airframe for the Lancaster. I never heard its history made the Lancaster any worse in the level bombing role, so why should it be that way for the He 177?
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Hi Cage,
>Here is a little known fact, the He-111 was upgraded once with four engines. It was called the He-116, but never was used as a bomber.
The He 116 was a completely different design from the He 111.
The He 116 was designed following a civilian requirement for a long-range aircraft, had wooden wings, and used four small engines of the 250 HP class.
It was lighter and smaller than the earlier twin-engined He 111C, but had at twice the range even compared to a He 111C with overload fuel, and a 50% higher ceiling.
Payload was 450 kg, not enough to make it a worthwhile bomber though it might have been a fair reconnaissance plane.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Originally posted by brady
O god....
dont get me started......
I will keep this short, if for no other reasion as to safguard my own sanity.
AH does not nead a He 111, or Do 217.
If Ah is to get any new German bomber the He 177 is the only worth while one to model, any argument to the contrary is mearly a veiled atempt to argure for their favorate plane rather than what could be best for the plane set.
Germany has a very nice plane set at present and realy does not neaed another bomber, Russia, Italy and Japan are all in far greater nead of somthing on this line than Germany is.
says it all. agree 100% . ju88 covers the same ground as the he111(very small loadout crap 7.9mm guns) and the do217(same crap 7.9mm defence guns.)
He177 is only bomber worth having (20mm and 13mm defences) as it will perform similarly to b17 in AH.
However an italian or japanese Heavy bomber would be acceptable i guess. as long as it has at least 6000lbs of ordinance and has better defence guns than 7.9mm or other rifle calibres.It NEEDS 13mm or similar or its torn to peices in MA.
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the he111 late model had 7.9mm guns and a 20mm,,and 4,100lb in bomb load<~~italy does need a bomer,,and thats the best bomber they ever had,,,same with russia<~~there best big bomber was pretty much the pby cat ,,because the rest of there bombers were old cargo planes and slower that dog poo:)
but the he177 would be nice,,,but will it have all the flaws the original had?,,i dout it,,because they dont model that stuff,,just the preformance chart<~~sure did great,,and carried a big load,,but it was a bomber that was doomed and killed too many of its own crews to be liked by anyone back then,,,still its a cool lookin bomber,,just a failed plane,hitler wanted every bomber to be able to dive bomb ,,so it could help his ground troops,,bad idea with a heavy bomber of that size,,lol
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italy does need a bomer,,and thats the best bomber they ever had,,,same with russia<~~there best big bomber was pretty much the pby cat ,,because the rest of there bombers were old cargo planes and slower that dog poo
i question your knowledge of \/. \/. S. & reggia aeronautica bomber A/C...
He111 h-series could carry more bombs than Ju88, enough to kill 3 hangars, rather than the 2 the Ju88 can do in - that might add it some popularity - they could carry 10 paratroops too
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i question your knowledge of \/. \/. S. & reggia aeronautica bomber A/C
ok what did i say that was wrong?,,the he111 h model alone<~~numberd up too 20 diffrent models atleast,,,he111 h1 to h20 or more,some with strait wings even,,carried any were from 2000kg too 4000kg,,counts on the model and opitions it had,,,so about 4000lb,,too 8000lb <~~i dont know everything v.v.s. and reggia bombers,, but can you say my information is wrong?,,i dont think so:P
7.92mm Rheinmetall MG 15 machine gun on manual mountings in nosecap, open dorsal position and ventral gondola; (H-3) same, plus fixed forward-firing MG 15 or 17, two MG 15's in waist windows and (usually) 20mm MG FF cannon in front of ventral gondola and (sometimes) fixed rear-firing MG 17 in extreme tail; internal bomb load up to 2,000kg in vertical cells, stored nose-up; external bomb load (at expense of internal) one 2,000kg on H-3 or two 500kg on others; later marks carried one or two 765kg torpedoes, Bv 246 glide missiles, Hs 293 rocket missiles, Fritz X radio-controlled glide bombs or one FZG-76 (V-1) cruise missile
China, Germany (Luftwaffe, Lufthansa), Hungary, Iraq, Romania, Spain, Turkey<~~counties that used that plane,,spain used it till 1956
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just saying that the itlaians produced bombers superior to the He111 & the soviets produced bombers better than the catalina (especially when you narrow it to bomber quality rating for war on the steppe)
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what did the soviets build that was better than the pby cat in ww2 and was used?,,cat had the longest range of all there ww2 russian bombers and big payload and it was built in russian,,canada and usa,,used by every allied unit in the world pretty much:) the Petlyakov Pe-2<~~closes good bomber russians had,,fast kinda,,good bomb load,,,,but it had horrible range,,700mils or somthing like that,,compared to the cats 2,300 and a bomb and rocket load of 4,000lb,,its hard to beat the old cat<~~most mass produced flying boat in history
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range & payload are not the only meritorius characteristics a bomber can have. to avoid interception speed & ceiling are very important. catalina had neither. Pe-8 had the range of the PBY, twice the payload, a 90 MPH speed advantage and 2500m higher ceiling. Yer-2 had the range of the PBY, 2/3 the payload, a 125 MPH speed advantage and 3200m higher ceiling. just about every level bomber the soviets produced during the great patriotic war had tremendous advantages over the catalina in the areas of speed and ceiling
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there were only 79 p-8s made,,compared to how many pbys?:) but it is a good plane i have to say,fast,,but i dont think it was as reliable as the pby,,but what plane was,,lol,,think the pby is known for being very reliable<~~russian bombers were very unreliable till too late in the war,,it took them too long to copy everyones stuff:)<~~there motors were horrible and by the time they figured it out,,it was getting pretty late in the war,,and there production numbers were even worse,,,79 planes,,and they were pleaged with problems till the end of the war,,think last p-8 flew in 1950,,,cats are still in use today
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how many catalinas bombed berlin?
soviets had plently of good bombers early on - Pe-8s, Yer-2 & Yak-4s were reliably bombing berlin in '41.
so what if the soviets scrapped their GPW planes when they had better A/C to fly?
PBY was a good plane for long range oceanic recon & submarine vulching (which seems to have been the main soviet use of it). with a brave crew it was a good night attack plane also. it wasn't a good plane for WWII style bombing, tactical or strategic (this explains all the B-17s & B-24s the USAAF used). the soviets barely had 200 of them.
i still question your knowledge of \/. \/. S. bomber A/C
¦¬ž
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early?,,p`8?,,it didnt have a reliable motor in it till 1943 pretty much,half of them had to have there motors replaced over many times,,and russians had 200 pby's ,,about twice as many as there own bomber the p-8<~~which was a problem child for many years
but plain and simple russian didnt have many good bombers and most were plagued with horrible undependable motors and terrible range
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im not saying p-8 wasnt a bad bomber,,like a he177 the preformance charts look great till you read the troubles they had,,and why they didnt make very many,, it was a problem child compared to the old reliable and still used pby
if i was you,,i would of used the p-2 instead <~did alot more than p-8 did,,just didnt have the long range,,, and didnt have all the problems ,and about the best plane they made,,but it was outdated and out of the game by 1945<~~unlike pby still being used today in some counties and fight fires in usa<~~which is amazing for a plane built in 1935 dont you think? most of the reason they were used for bombing subs and ships,,because of there high range and water landings<~`you saying bombing ships wasnt importaint to the russians?
i question your knowledge \/. \/. S. bomber A/C whgates<~~because p-8 bad example ,,it was used in small numbers and didnt make much of a impact on ww2
it is perhaps surprising that the Pe-8 was the only aircraft of its type to see Soviet service during WW2 and then only in small numbers<~~doesnt sound like it was importaint:)
im not here to argu about bombers anymore,,lol<~~i can bring up data all day long that says the pby was more improtaint than the p-8,,and im sure you can bring some stuff up too,,so much info you can get lost,,its easy too,,but from what i read,,pby was twice as importaint as the p-8how many catalinas bombed berlin
how many pe-8 bombed anything?,hehe,,they were hardly used and didnt make much of a impact on the war
like i said before,,the pby for reliability,,range and bomb load ,,it was one of the best bombers the russians had:)
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Originally posted by hyena426
it is perhaps surprising that the Pe-8 was the only aircraft of its type to see Soviet service during WW2 and then only in small numbers<~~doesnt sound like it was importaint:)
The reason why Russia didnt produce many Pe8 is because of its military doctrine Hyena426 not because its was not reliable enough. Russia military doctrine for the VVS was centered on battlefield support (Il2).
And you forgot about the Tu2 wich was about as good as any Twin the US produced during WW2.
The Pe2 was an attack plane, designed as a dive bomber (the dive brake got stuck after use so they removed them.)
The Pe8 once carried molotoc on a 13000km trip. It could carry 4000KG bombload. It had good performances.
Although early versions used primitive powerplants with an engine in the fuselage used for high alt (supercharger or something like that).
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I for one am eternally gratefull to HTC for seeing past the 1944-5 dweeb rides. Without the earlier a/c there would be no scenarios or events worth attending at all.
He-111? sure, not right away, but down the road yes. Its too important a LW a/c to not eventually have. For some of us thats still important.
Later.
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Originally posted by hyena426
the he111 late model had 7.9mm guns and a 20mm,,and 4,100lb in bomb load<~~italy does need a bomer,,and thats the best bomber they ever had
Boy, it's really difficult to understand your writings, but I need to point you that Italy did'nt produced the He111, it was produced by the Heinkel, a German factory.
Italy had a good medium bomber, the SM 79 (Savoia Marchetti), that deserve to be modeled as Italian plane, or the low produced Piaggio p-108, almost like a B17 (but in Italian style, so better :) ), more suited for the Main Arena.
And must not be forgot the Cant Z.1007. (Yes Brady ;) )
I repeat again:
He-111 it is NOT an Italian bomber.
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taly had a good medium bomber, the SM 79 (Savoia Marchetti), that deserve to be modeled as Italian plane, or the low produced Piaggio p-108, almost like a B17 (but in Italian style, so better ), more suited for the Main Arena.
<~it was not better than a he111,,,,its barely faster than a he111,,it only carries half of the bomb load,,and wasnt produced in the numbers that the he111 was<~~how can you have b.o.b with out this plane?,,,thats like not having butter on your toast,lolit was produced by the Heinkel, a German factory.
well,,your wrong , Ernst Heinkel AG; also built in France on German account by SNCASO; built under licence by Fabrica de Avione SET, Romania, and CASA, Spain<~~look how many countries produced the he111,,just like pby for allies,,it was made and used by about all the german allies,,spainish needs a bomber too:P
China, Germany (Luftwaffe, Lufthansa),italy, Hungary, Iraq, Romania, Spain, Turkey
and used way more than the sm-79 and produced in 4 times the numbers<~~why is the sm-79 more suited for main?,,it wasnt as tuff as the he111 ,,it wasnt used as much as the he111,,and the bomb load in the early version and late one's were only half of what a he111 could carry,,allmost 8,000lb he111 could carry by late war<~~more than a b17 does here now,,and i would like to see that sm-79 even think about carring that many bombs,,it would break in half:)
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He-111? sure, not right away, but down the road yes
<~~very well put:) to not have this plane in a ww2 sim is just wrong,,,there crews liked them,,they were tuff,,and well used,,,only reason in b.o.b that they were chewed up,,was because of lack of fighter cover,,,,look at what happend to usa and england's bombing raids ,,when they didnt have air cover they were slaughtered just like the he111 over england
there is not one reason,,not one!! why the he111 shouldnt be in a ww2 sim,,very importaint plane and used just as much or more than most bombers
but in time,,i hope it makes it,,i dont think ill throw my self off a cliff if it dont show up,,but im tired of hearing people say it wasnt importaint and didnt make a impact,,it did,,it was a good plane like it or not:)
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Originally posted by hyena426
[B...he111 could carry,,allmost 8,000lb he111 could carry by late war<~~more than a b17 does here now,,...[/B]
7150 lbs is not almost 8000 lbs, it is slightly over 7000 lbs„„„& that was only w/ RATO & low fuel load———apply that standard to the B-17G & it can carry over 20000 lbs•••SM79 is not the only italian medium bomber«««SM84 could carry nearly 9000 lbs & had nearly twice the range of the He111
¶^‡
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Function: bomber / torpedo bomber
Year: 1941 Crew: 5 Engines: 3 * 1000hp Piaggio P.XI RC 40
Wing Span: 21.13m Length: 17.93m Height: 4.59m Wing Area: 61m2
Empty Weight: 8846kg Max.Weight: 13288kg
Speed: 432km/h Ceiling: 7900m Range: 1830km
Armament: 4*mg12.7mm 2000kg
every were i look,,i dont see any 9000lb bomber load,,only about 4,000,,,you looking at a future version? and only 309 were built
Its combat use was not very successful, because it was unstable and had unreliable engines. <~~there we go again,,thats one of the reasons alot of some bombers were built,,because of reliabilty,, no pilot wants to fly a unsafe and unproven plane,,even in the time of war,,lol<~~besides chuck yeger or someone,,lol
its hard to beat the old war horse somtimes ,,because they had time to hammer out all the problems<~~i shouldnt have to argu why this plane should be here,,it speaks for its self,, i think you pull of some very good info whgates,,,but its hard to deny that the he111 was very importaint to the axis,,was tuff and very reliable <~~one of the best traits for a bomber its only down fal,,but like most bombers,,was it was slow,,but from what i read,,it was tuff as nails:)
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my mistake«×»i meant SM-82
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bomber with a maximum bombload of up to 8,818 Ibs (4000 kg), the S.M.82 saw very limited use in this role<~~guess it was used more for dropping troops and cargo
but it was slow<~~he111 maximum speed (H-3) 415km/h emty
sm-82 Maximum speed 230 mph (370 km/h); emty ,,about 400 made,, defenatly a big hauler,,but from what i read,,good plane,,just underpowerd7150 lbs is not almost 8000 lbs, it is slightly over 7000 lbs
<~~~but if you look,,the he111 h3,,carried 2000kg in belly,,and 2000kg on wings,,thats alot more than 7,000lb,,thats the same bomb load as the sm.82 but with a little more speed
sm.82 did have good range,,but not twice the range,,1800km compared too 1200km<~~the better motors in the he111 must make up for the gas diffrence,,and the sm.82 lot bigger plane in size,,big gas tanks im sure,,must be why it weighs more than a he111 when loaded
gas is heavy
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Well, I think we can all agree that the plane sets that exist are pretty sweet. The one thing I think are lacking, but do not really see a problem in terms of balance are for large strat bombers for the Axis. There are none as yet. Which fits, sinse there were very very few and rarlely used in the War.
In a dream state I would love to see the anti-buff versions of the Ju88 for tac missions, or possibly the B25J (ground attack varient) but I think for the most part the plane sets are pretty good where they are until the ground game can be exponded on a little. I understand the Name of the game is Aceshigh, and that this a flying game. But the door has been breached with the Tiger, and a pretty good job to boot. Let's have some fun with it. From the game aspect I think it is a major improvement, and from a flyer's point of veiw, I think it makes the game far more interesting. The sea game could also use a little improvment. But hey, you guys at HT are doing a fine job with a little money. IMHO, this is the best sim out there online. Keep up the Great work.
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i agree with that my self,,,but when i see them ad a bomber like the kate<~i bet money that the he111 would of seen more use in aces high than this poor thing,,,and as for the sea,,you know the pby has to be next,,it seen action on every end of the world,,and even stopped a possible invasion of alaska that i read about once<~~good plane,,very reliable,,,i hear they even dive bombed with the poor thing,,even know it wasnt made to do it,,i guess it would dive bomb,lol<~~would be a scary site too see,lol but would take both pilots to get her out of a dive,,hhehe
i think aces high does a great job,,im happy to be able to fly in it,,im just here tring to show people how great these planes were so that they wont be skipped up in the next few updates for planes that were hadly used or produced,,,we need the front line planes first,,then we can have room for experimental planes and hardly produced models,.,right?
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LOL Hyaena, there is for sure a language barrier between us.
I repeat again in a simpler form:
The He-111 it's not an italian plane.
If some italian plane have to be modeled, it's the SM-79, the most representative italian bomber of the war.
The only italian bomber suited for the Main is (as already I have stated) the Piaggio 108, that is almost of the same class of the B17.
There's another italian bomber that will be nice to have, the Cant Z.1007.
You understand?
He-111 it's not italian.
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Originally posted by hyena426
<~it was not better than a he111,,,,its barely faster than a he111,,it only carries half of the bomb load,,and wasnt produced in the numbers that the he111 was<~~how can you have b.o.b with out this plane?,,,thats like not having butter on your toast,lol
Whats the connection between Italy and BoB (Br20 aside?)
well,,your wrong , Ernst Heinkel AG; also built in France on German account by SNCASO; built under licence by Fabrica de Avione SET, Romania, and CASA, Spain<~~look how many countries produced the he111,,just like pby for allies,,it was made and used by about all the german allies,,spainish needs a bomber too:P
So the He-111 it's a french bomber? :rolleyes:
does'nt seem so ugly (Sorry Straffo ;) )
and used way more than the sm-79 and produced in 4 times the numbers<~~why is the sm-79 more suited for main?,,it wasnt as tuff as the he111 ,,it wasnt used as much as the he111,,and the bomb load in the early version and late one's were only half of what a he111 could carry,,allmost 8,000lb he111 could carry by late war<~~more than a b17 does here now,,and i would like to see that sm-79 even think about carring that many bombs,,it would break in half:)
The 108 it's more suited for main, the SM 79 will be cannon fodder.
You still are asking a German plane as it was Italian, and you are wrong.
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Whats the connection between Italy and BoB (Br20 aside?)
who said italy had anything to do with bob?,,lmao!! {knocks on head} hello mc fly!!,,lol<~~ were did i say italy had anything to do with bob? are ya reading it all wrong?,,im just giving reasons it should be here,,and yes it was used in the spanish war ,,when italy was tring to win spain over to there side,,germans helped and there was plenty of he111 in both counties by the start of ww2
So the He-111 it's a french bomber?
,,yes,,matter of fact,,they retooled alot of there factories to produce there own wepons,,did you know the germans used the french 75mm cannon too?,,because it was so easy make,,and such a good gun to build
i think you need to read more bout the he111,,,,well for those who dont know,, spanish built the he111 too,,matter of fact!! one of the only ones left flying in the confederate airforce is a spanish built he111!!You still are asking a German plane as it was Italian, and you are wrong.
<~~lmao,,,were did i say it was only a italian bomber?,,,i said it was used by all those countries and then some<~~every bit of info i have got from books and online specs ,,if you have a problem with my information you can go bug the history keepers about it or the web sites,,and see what they say about it,,lol,,,because i wasnt there,,and i know you wasnt too,,all my info is from books and web sites<~~and most of it is right on the money like it or not well,,your wrong , Ernst Heinkel AG; also built in France on German account by SNCASO; built under licence by Fabrica de Avione SET, Romania, and CASA, Spain
<~~dont beleve me,,look it up for your self,,thats all i got to say about that
i dont know why you think just because a bomber is from germany,,doesnt mean it wasnt made and produced {or used}in othere countries,,lol,,it happend alot!! lots of countries during that war used some one else's goods..that is what having allies is all about,,lol,,so if you think im wrong,,,well,it aint me,,just the info i read,,and im pretty sure most of the info is right on the money,,im done with this poor thread,,,i shouldnt have to argu about a bomber that was one of the most importaint and produced bombers they had,,and that it was made in france,,that so hard to beleve?,,sorry but it was true,,atleast thats what the he111 web sites say,,go argu the fact with them :) but i know im right,,and like i said,,if you dont think so,go read some history
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I still think the He111 would be redundant since we already have the Ju88 for BoB.
We dont have any Russian or Italian bomber yet.
I think thta should be HT's priority for bombers right now.
A Tu2 would be a great MA bomber (entered service in 1944 so it might not be a good choice for scenarios though).
Pe2 as a bombload similar to the Ki67 so it would not see much use. (great use for scenarios too).
SM79 and CANT would not be very competitive in the MA but they would be useful for scenarios.
P108 would be good in the MA but not much use in the MA.
Looks like a though choice :D