Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Effdub on March 21, 2001, 09:01:00 AM
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"Once bitten, twice shy". Many "fighter" pilots seem to react that way when it comes to buff-killing. The end result is endless whining to "please dumb down a buffs ability to defend himself".
Oh, c'mon ladies... if the buff is too strong, your setup is too weak (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Key elements to buff-killing "should" be known to to our wannabe fighter pilots.
These are:
a) Patience
b) Fast slashing attacks
c) Knowledge of blind areas
d) Altitude
e) Speed
f) Fill in things I've missed so far
Even more important than "knowing" the theories is actually TRAINING buff-kills!
It is OBVIOUS that you'll die often to bombers in the beginning. No one can expect to achieve anything well without learning "the job".
What does this mean? Go fight buffs, die, learn from your mistakes, go fight buffs, get better, go fight buffs... etc
Mindset:
A good Buff kill starts in the hangar. The decision to kill buffs should be made BEFORE you jump into your plane.
Why?
a) Plane selection. Some planes are better suited than others for buff killing. You can obviously select weaker planes for the job too, but they are only effective when you "really" know what your doing. Make your life easier and select planes with good arnament, climb rate and speed. I personally prefer the Spit IX (with the alternative gun loadout), because its a fairly good buff killer, but also can fight its way back if attacked by fighter escorts.
b) Setup. You'll need altitude to engage buffs. You have to figure out where buffs are likely to show up (forward airfields, HQ). Sure you can go after enemy fighters and jump the random buff that comes along, but 9 times out of 10 you'll rush into the engagement and die. If you limit yourself to buff kills alone for a sortie your mind will be free to concentrate on the job.
c) Situational awareness. Watch the buff closely BEFORE you do anything!
1: Is he manouvering? If your lucky (the plane is set on a straight course), the buff driver is afk while having the autopilot on and isen't aware of your presence.
2: At which range does he start to fire? If the buffer starts firing at plus 1k he's: a newbie (newbie = bad gunner, wadting ammo) or a pro thats faking newbieness (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
3: Check six! The best buff-killing setup will get ruined if you fail to see his escort fighter... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
4: Make it hard for him! Come in from high above and aim for something offset from his turret - the BEST target is his wing. Fire at short range. Some buffers don't even know you are there untill they hear the pings and it's harder to lineup on close targets from a buffers point of view. Try it yourself! Fly a buff, check out the turrets. The framework obscures your line of sight.
5: How smart is this buff driver? Some buffers have great evasive manouvers to blow your setup. Make a quick decision if you are good enough to counter his moves. If not, abort or fight him anyways... as I said before TRAINING is the key.
Conclusion.
Buff kills get easier if you are willing to do your part. Learn.
Whining about a buffs toughness shows one thing alone: YOU want your kills served on a silver plate without being forced to actually develop your flying ability.
I feel sorry for you... if I had the money I'd send you a copy of Quake to satisfy your "I want my kills nice n' easy" mentality (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Introduce gun shake in buffs? Fine with me. As long as its an emmersion feature. Not to make a buff drivers life even more miserable (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
p.s. I'm not a dedicated buff driver. This tour I've been in fighters exclusively.
I just welcome the challenge buff engagements have to offer.
Scores vs Buffs so far...
Against
B-17G 5 kills, 1 death
B-26b 5 kills, 1 death
Lanc III 3 kills, 1 death
Effdub
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All well and good except for one factor. Time. You are quite right, you need altitude, but 1 buff can totally annihilate a field, you don't have that time luxury.
As I said in another thread, most of us here are experienced sim pilots and know how to kill a buff.
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You also left out the part about having a plane capable of maneuvering at 30k in order to get the buff.
AKDejaVu
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lol DJ, good point.
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They really aren't that hard to kill - especially if you have a teammate to help distract the guns.
All you need to do is not decide to climb up to the buff from the low furball over the field. It really isn't that hard to position up high and between your fields and the enemy's.
Climb up and start your attack while slow and from the 6 and you are toast. Guaranteed. Make a slashing attack from high 2 or 10 and you have a really good chance of a 1-pass kill if you get guns on and keep them on through the pass.
The buffs only have turbo laser guns when you provide an easy target.
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PakRat
63rd FS, 56th FG
"Zemke's Wolfpack"
(http://home.att.net/~ahpakrat/pakrat.jpg)
"Juggies, dance us back in history!"
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Yes we should all fly chogs all the time so just when the buff comes we have a chance.
As for "fast slashing attacks" well those dont really work anymore, a b17 can rip u up from nearly any angle now. You apparently have no idea what it feels like to set up a 400 mph 30C hi frontal acpect pass on a B17 then get totaly blown up wings ripped off flaming wreck by ONLY THE whoopeeED MOTHERdiddlyING potato SON OF A squeak TOP TURRET WITH ONLY TWO whoopeeED AH "50CAL" GUNS. Sorry guys but i hate this. Feel free to mute me BTW. Its practically the worst part of AH IMHO.
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uck ! Grun, get a "chill pill" or something mate (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
As I've stated in another thread on the same subject "I can kill buffs alright, it's the little ones I have trouble with".
I'll get it if I am patient and will maneuvre around him (Even if I have found more "smart" Buffplots, who don't let you in their blind spots... they will turn with you & keep you in a firing window if you're not fast enough)
Of course, I have only succeeded Killing buffs that are between 0.1 --> 20 K.
The maneuvrability ratio between an AH Buff & an AH fighter at high altitudes are well..."interesting". I have yet to succeed "buying myself a kill" at high altitude. I did get a few, but it was then pure luck, because all I could basicaly do was a slashing attack from the side...without movin' much(because, if you move you'll loose a lot of alt.)
I still enjoy a lot Prowling for Buffs with a 190A8.
Disclaimer : This High alt perception might change now with the TA152, but I haven't tried that yet, so I will keep it out for now.
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MASS/SAW
(http://saintaw.cyberspace.be/saw_typh.gif) (http://saintaw.cyberspace.be/ff/)
"I am distracted when I talk to my privates".
Wobble
[This message has been edited by Saintaw (edited 03-21-2001).]
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Effdub: I think you covered it pretty well-my suggestion would to fly a buff for a while and see what works/doesn't work in defense. Then apply that to offensive fighter tactics.
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Originally posted by Apache:
All well and good except for one factor. Time. You are quite right, you need altitude, but 1 buff can totally annihilate a field, you don't have that time luxury.
agreed - by the time you set up the perfect attack - the guy has downed your base - sometimes you have to go for it
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There was another point left out. The buff will be able to out maneuver you at high alt (27 - 35k). They can turn and attack a fighter easier than the fighter maneuvering against the buff.
Mav
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Effdub is WRONG, buffs that strato-bomb are virtually untouchable. At 20k, everything is game, including your sister, but unless HTC puts in the Me-262 or Me-163, attacking high altitude bombers is 'impossible'. The Ta-152 may be nimble at high altitude, but in speed comparison, it's a huge risk to chase any B-17. Even if you come at him from 40k, why risk 50 perk points against the fragile 152?
A few points..
The Buff has a TAS of 320 at 30k, while you may have a TAS of 350-430 (if you didn't manouver, climb, sneeze, or fart the past five minutes). That translates into a 100 mile an hour closure advantage. Plus, at 30k your climb rate is dick, a whopping 500-1500fpm. Now, throw that against a B-17 with 4 or 5 50 Cals aimed at you travelling in a perfectly straight line, it's bad news. For the bomber, it's like swatten flies with an sledge hammer, for you, its swatten flies with a McDonald's drink straw 10 feet long. Not to mention, at 30k, your plane flies like it just drank a full bottle of Nyquil.
Bottom line, Strato-Buffs are not fun to attack. When I go Buff, I fly at 27-30k - so far I'm 30 and 1 (got shot down landing), and it feels great to buff high and not be bothered. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Some countries, you'll even get arrested for going buff. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Vruth
403 RCAF Bomber Sqn
[This message has been edited by Vruth (edited 03-21-2001).]
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What are buffs?
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GRUNHERZ says:
Whaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!! Bombers don't just die when I look at them! BWAAAAAA!!!! Its not fair!! WHAAAAAAAAA!!!!!
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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EffDub,
Everything you mention is always good practice when attacking bombers but it really can become complicated by so many other factors that often you cannot use many/all of those points.
To counter those points, bombers often:
1) Fly in the stratosphere (30K+) where they handle well and fighters almost can't turn.
2) Fly off the map so you can't even find them until they pop up right next to your HQ.
3) only appear on dar such that a G10 in max climb can get up to 25K before the bomber is over the target. This gives no time to properly set anything up.
4) smart bomber pilots will turn to keep you chasing at their 6 all the time, something that they couldn't really do in real life lest miss a target off-course or break formation.
On top of that from all angles you are usually facing at least 4 guns from a bomber (B-17, Lanc, B-26), and the convergence is always varying to account for the distance. It also appears that different calibre guns (like .303's and .50's on the Lanc) account automatically for the varying performance in ballistics. It's like facing a HO from a P-51 when attacking a B-17, but your closing speed is, even with a nice dive from above, only ~250mph, not the 600mph+ you'd expect to get in a real fighter HO. The slightly heavier .50's on the B17 also tend to hurt a bit more (be it more hitting power (i.e. velocity), or better accuracy).
I know this bomber thing has been brought up time and again, Effdub's suggestions are correct, but to some ace bomber pilots/gunners it just doesn't make much difference 1 on 1, you will either both die (due to lag allowing each side to get the killing blow done), or the fighter will usually lose. 2 fighters on 1 bomber, the bomber almost always loses badly if the pilots can coordinate their attacks.
I guess it's all a gameplay concession thought I wish HTC would look into it.
-Soda
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GRUNHERZ says:
"Screw you Karnak" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Hey im definatly not an expert as i am sure my record would show. But what does seem to work more often than not is diving from 2k above him. You want to start your dive from in front of his flight path so when you are in guns range you are flying straight down into him. This attack always works if I take the time and set it up right. Of course if its a 30k B17 ill just give him the finger and not bother.
Ive been flying buffs to try and get enough points so I could fly a 234 for a squad mission or something, and by flying em i think its helping in downing them. Those that get me I try and remember that for my next time attacking a buff.
I got 3 in a row tonight, all by myself so it is possible.
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"...smart bomber pilots will turn to keep you chasing at their 6 all the time, something that they couldn't really do in real life lest miss a target off-course or break formation..."
Exactly. The people recommending attack from this angle or that angle must be attacking different bombers then the rest of us. When the bombers are continually turning, it's impossible to set up a good attack. This is the silliest part of the whole thing.
bowser
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By the same token, we shouldn't have platoons of FlakPz's chasing after squadrons of cannon armed fighters. FlakPz's were defensive weapons, but in AH they have the initiative - because they have higher chance of scoring a kill 1-1 with a fighter. The *last* thing an *open-topped* FlakPz should want to see is a couple of fighters looking for them.
-DoK
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When you said:
a) Patience
b) Fast slashing attacks
c) Knowledge of blind areas
d) Altitude
e) Speed
f) Fill in things I've missed so far
I think you meant:
A)Patience
B)Altitude
C)Speed
D)Fast slashing attacks (I like vertical)
The rest doesn't matter. If, you do this right, one pass in a six-.50 cal ride will bring anything down. You have to hit it though! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Voss
13th TAS
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First thing I do when I want to kill a buff is find a likely buff target. HQ is usually good especially if enemy has close bases. climb high 30k or so and wait. Usually a buff will come along loaded with bombs determined to hit his target. Slash and run concentrate on getting hits but don't worry about killing him in one pass. Never come up his six. If you come at him fast from above and behind aim for his wingtip. I'm not real good at it but buff hunting is one of my favorite AH sports. Let em climb High grab a 152 and show em what High is.
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Here's some buff tactics I posted a while back that work great:
Historically speaking, there were three angles that a bomber was vulnerable to. A 20º cone head-on, and directly above. Slashing attacks were nearly impossible to defeat due to the angles and speeds. Attacking from directly behind is suicidal, that's a given. But head-on attacks, with up to 7 guns on you, can't be done in AH. It should be only 5 guns, but since the ball turret can be elevated to about +5º you can fire through the aircraft with it. Known bug that still hasn't been fixed.
Lancs aren't trouble; they're flying targets. Some 30 caliber machine guns positiioned on top and on the front. A pair of 50 cals tacked on the rear, gee there's a real threat. Come at 'em from below and they're toast; aim for the wings.
B-26s are easy prey too. Above and behind or directly above are prime angles for a sure-fire kill. I vulched one guy 4 times simply by diving on him; this was done using a D-hog.
Ju-88s are easy to kill at any angle.
B-17s are impossible to kill from head-on, rear, and below. So you're stuck with slashing attacks, which work very well. In a single sortie I shot down a pair of B-17 using slashing attacks and a D-hog. 10 and 2 o'clock work best, and aim for the inboard engine. Dispersion will not only kill that engine, but maybe blow the wing off or cause a pilot-kill. Any other angle usually won't work unless you get the drop on the pilot/gunner. Attacks from above are sort of a grab bag; you might get him, he might get you. The same goes for strikes from below.
TBM-3s are also easy kills. Below and behind works, or a simple bounce from above. Again, aim for the wings to be sure of a kill.
Someone once asked me why he kept losing kills. Easy, he didn't keep shooting. If you blow an engine the guy can still ditch, but if you rip his wing off he's dead. Inflict enough damage to make sure he goes down. This means aiming for the wings or tail section. Once you've got him burning and going down all you have to worry about is someone stealing the kill. Or you can keep firing until the guy explodes, which wastes ammo in my opinion. Crutial if you drive a Yak like me.
Duma refered to the Ju-88's 7.92mm MGs as sonic warfare. He's right too; all those hit sounds are a barrage on your ears! And they probably cause damage just by the shockwaves of impact. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"For yay did the sky darken, and split open and spew forth fire, and
through the smoke rode the Four Wurgers of the Apocalypse.
And on their canopies was tattooed the number of the Beast, and the
number was 190." Jedi, Verse Five, Capter Two, The Book of Dweeb
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/delta6.jpg)
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Fowl! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
B-17G 8 kills, 2 deaths
B-26b 16 kills, 1 death
Lanc III 6 kills, 1 death
Ju 88 3 kills, 0 deaths
And I have about the worst gunnery in the game.
Killin a buff will basically offer you the same odds as a good clean Co-E 1v1 vs a fighter. Just because it's big 'n fat 'n slow doesn't mean it's yer god given right to be able to bring it down. It doesn't matter that you say "yes yes, that's all good and fine - I've been doing this for years, and I know how to kill a buff, thank-you-very-much". If you truly did, you would. It's a different mindset, really... and if you aren't prepared to go toe to toe with a buff on its terms, don't complain when it kills ya. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And while they do exist - those 30k strato buffs are *much* more rare than some make it seem, and not a worthy excuse for makin' the buff driver's job more difficult.
Good tips Effdub.
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Amen Effdub. All true ... all wrong. The good Browning gunner who is waiting for you almost always wins. And the problem here are the special (lethality, range, convergence) buff-Brownings. BTW, you have had few clashes with buffs so far. Come back when you have tens of them (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 03-22-2001).]
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Originally posted by Nash:
Fowl! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And while they do exist - those 30k strato buffs are *much* more rare than some make it seem, and not a worthy excuse for makin' the buff driver's job more difficult.
Good tips Effdub.
I agree here. I have only been above 20K 2 or 3 times. I made it to 28K at best and it turned out not to be worth the 1 hour effort. I usually try to make it to 20K. More than that just isnt worth the time spent getting there (to me anyway). Plus it makes it more interesting with fighters inbound. Even if I die it is usually a pretty good battle (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I have died 12 times in a bomber.
I have 11 kills in a bomber.
I think it seems pretty fair so far. But I haven't flown the B-17 yet. The B-17 was a pretty dang tough plane to kill though. I tried to chase one down once in a Corsair. I saw lots of hits and smoke from him but he nailed me. I came in from his 6 (not too smart but wife was callin me so I had to hurry) and started shooting 1.2 out. But I have been told not to fly the B-17 cause I will never earn enough perks for the arado so I havent flown it.
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Chuck Perry
"Sky61"
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Stratobuffs... I think it's a fair trade-off. If you are willing to spend so much time to get alt, just to hit a field, so be it. "If" buff driver would ALWAYS get enough people to fly in huge formations, "if" they'd ALWAYS get enough people to come along as escort you could tone down the bombers. Would this work? I dunno... just take a look at user made missions, how many do actually join those...? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Time... as I said before, if you want to kill buffs you should make that decision in the hangar. That includes looking at the current map situation and figuring out where buffs are LIKELY to show up, not looking for radar blips that are ALREADY there...
So, instead of climbing frantically to catch a radar blip, you'll already be cruising at alt to hopefully intercept incoming buffs.
Boring? Well, it dosen't have to be YOU that hunts buffs, you could be the furballer, the tank driver, the dive-bomber, whatever. Me, I like hunting Buffs for a taste of something different (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
TA-152. Why not take it up to hunt buffs? What else are you going to do with your perk points? Right now I have 500 I think... I could die 10 times in the TA-152 before I take up furballing to buy me a new one... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Off-Map flying sucks - period.
and Gatt...
Scores for Tour 13 vs Buffs...
against
B-17G 11 kills, 4 deaths
B-26b 13 kills, 3 deaths
Lanc III 3 kills, 4 deaths
(oops! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) coming in from below didn't work as good as I thought it should)
Ju-88 9 kills, 1 death
(thrown in to make my Lancaster debacle look a tad better) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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One tactic which I haven't read in this thread but works for me on B17's is starting off with a reasonable altitude advantage, the diving below as the distance is about 1k (the point where the average buff starts firing. You can then make slashing attacks constantly switching between above and below the buff. I always do this either from the sides or from a very high rear angle. The beauty of this is that your constantly forcing the buff gunner to switch gunnery positions (top turret and bottom turret). Obviously this doesnt work if your directly on his six as the rear gunner can cover you all the time. If you take the time to set this up right it almost always works. Only once in AH have I ever seen a pilot do this on me (me in a buff). I found it very hard to defend against since every time I switched guns i had to correct aim by which time the fighter had made his pass and was away to set up his next.
Just another angle (if you pardon the pun).
<S>
Gremlin
56th Firebirds Squadron (RAF)
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Effdub,
The whole argument in support of strato-bombers is crap, pure and simple. I've yet to hear anything even resembling a good excuse for it. "If people are willing to spend the time to get that high then they deserve to be invulnerable".... what crap. They start their climb, have a smoke, grab a cup of coffee, whatever, most of them aren't sitting there staring at the screen the whole time. Even it they are, too bad, you can run an effective bomber raid from 20K and only spend half the time climbing you would to get to 30K. They fly at 30K, and totally change the balance of the game by hitting something important, be it a field or HQ.
Risking something like a Ta152 at 30K to attack a bomber, well, we saw a lot of that last weekend where it cost the Bish 5 Ta152's to attack a bomber formation. The Ta152 isn't the answer since I doubt many people want to waste that ride attacking bombers. An arado, maybe, but not a B17.
Good, or even fair, bomber gunners are getting better than 1:1 K/D ratio against fighters. A bomber can do as much to set up the fighter as the fighter can do to set up the bomber. At high alts the bomber is actually at an advantage since it can maneuver far better than a fighter and thus the bomber can dictate the fight, not the fighter.
Bombers are such a powerful force in AH that they are extremely important to defend against. 2 Lancs can totally destroy a country's HQ, or destroy all the AC hangers at 3 small fields and still have bombs to spare. Flying high looking for bombers, well, that's all great in theory, but even if you are high then you might find yourself still lower than the bombers and getting shot down.
All you suggestions are good Effdub, I disagree with the support for stratobombing, I don't think it's necessary or fair. Considering the pinpoint accuracy from those alts it really is unbalancing. Still, setting up good attacks on bombers is quite a skill as well as an art. It's just that I feel the bomber aspect of the game needs some work in a release pretty soon. I think it gives a rather unfair advantage to people who climb into the stratosphere where not only are they nearly invulerable that high, but they can also deeply influence the game since they can inflict such crippling damage from those altitudes.
-Soda
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I think nash is right. that's not to say that there is nothing wrong with the buffs or the strat tho. Even tho he's right.... it doesn't make it any more fun to kill a buff for me. It is too much effort (and chance) for way too little reward. In an arena with something to do I will avoid all but front quartering shots with buffs and even avoid that if there is ANYTHING less boring to do.
lazs
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notice how all these threads come back to the fact that what little (choke) strat there is is gimicky and not fun. The strat, or lack thereof, leads to the goofy concessions.
soda explains the problem well.
lazs
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hmmmmmm........I have LW gun cam film that shows LW fighters flying through, over, and under buffs at speeds very much higher then the buffs. also have film of them shredding formations. gave me the chills watching the film. seems like what I saw on the guncam film, with gear falling, engines actually falling of, and USAAF bombers coming apart in mid air from the weak 20mm cannons on the FW almost an apparition in AH. I don't think one tail gun gunner could handle that attack. There were plenty of gunners firing at the fighters, the fighters in the gun cam film had more success against a formation, with more guns trained on them, then we do 1 vs 1 in AH and a single tailgunner. Just food for thought!
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I think the general mentality of AH doesn't really point to a more indepth strategic model, in general. Lots of people come here for the quick furball and could care less about investing a lot of time bombing strategic targets. That's totally valid. It would be impossible to put constraints on all that without negatively impacting a larger percentage of the AH subscribers.
Still, for the couple of people who like to play the "whole" AH game, including the strategic elements as they exist, the bombing is a very important aspect that can seriously alter the balance of the battle. It is important because it is very effective and shifting the entire outcome of a country and thus turns off another group of players.
I like seeing bomber raids come in to try and hit important targets, and I don't mind facing them at every turn to help save "the homeland", but then people cheat, and that is what gaming the game is, then it doesn't make it fun as you seem to have found laz.
I just wish HTC would plug some of these loopholes, or at least comment on them rather than for the same 10 problems to get mentioned over and over again but nothing apparantly be done about them. There is no good reason to strato-bomb other than to boost score or to make a joke of the real game that AH is.
-Soda
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soda.. I think that is well reasoned and obvious to most who are not too narrowly focused. The way that the "strat" is now is that it only limits vehicles from being available. I think that most people feel this is a fighter sim and a lot of people who wish to fly fighters in a ..... well, fight... get pretty miffed when all they see is fields with two buildings down 3 deep and the message "u are unable to take off from that field".... It looks and feels gimicky and chintzy.
If the fields were maybe easier to take but fighters (planes) were available till the very end then.... many who don't participate in "strat" (because it's boring and phony) would get cought up in the defense and taking of fields. If for nothing else, for the action. Fields would close faster and people could see what was going on at a glance plus resets would happen easier.
lazs
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laz, back in the early versions of AH you couldn't close a field to fighters, you could always spawn. It lead to endless vulching situations where planes would just circle and run up 20 kill sorties killing people as they took off. It was very phoney, moreso in my opinion than the current model.
The version of strategy here is pretty simple, but I think it at least works, while not being great, it's not complicated and leaves several options to users to accomplish a goal. I think it's not too bad, though I wish people wouldn't be able to use "cheats" to circumvent the way it is implemented. You could never really have true strategy since that involves all kinds of factors you could never really model in a game (social, economic, personal, military).
If this is to be discussed anymore it should be in it's own topic though since this is way off the original reason for this thread.
I did kill 3 Lancs last night, had little time to set up good approaches on any of them, but had friendly help nearby and got all three with only 1 or 2 pings in return. It showed how unbalanced the battle becomes for bombers when they are out-numbered 2 on 1.
-Soda
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It lead to endless vulching situations where planes would just circle and run up 20 kill sorties killing people as they took off.
How did changing the "strat" stop this? It didn't. This can still be done. Just don't take out the fh's and there ya have it. Nah, should be able to spawn if you choose until the entire field is closed, not just downing the fh's, IMO.
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Nice of ya to say lazs... though I was only talking about buffs, as per the original post, in purely tactical terms. Not strategic. That's another matter and I don't really have an opinion on it other than to say that I wouldn't be against any improvements.
The trouble I'm having is that the suggestions and complaints coming from you and others seems to be coming in... how do I word this?... little pieces... and often I look at each of the suggestions and think to myself "yes, ya could do that, makes sense... but if ya did that what are ya gonna do when (X) happens as a result? It wouldn't work"...
I do see yer points, but they only seem to work in isolation.
I suggest, for a real discussion on Strat (because come on - we need *something* - just not "gimmicky" as you say), that you create a new post titled something along the lines of "Lazs' definitive suggestion for a strat overhaul". Come up with a solution and try to create something that covers *all* of the contingencies (eg. Soda's pointing out the result when fighters could still spawn).
You can't take it piecemeal like this. Everything effects everything else. The only way to seriously tackle this is go right back to the drawing board and design a whole new strat system. If ya want changes to the strat you simply *need* to give it that amount of thought.
But I for one would be *very* interested if you tackled something like this... rather than specific complaints/suggestions that are often incongruous with the other strat elements. I think it would be a worthwhile discussion. Personally, I don't have too much of a problem with the current strat model. You, on the other hand, seem like you'd be up for something like this.
It would probably be the only way to get any of your smaller, detailed gripes addressed.
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It did change it, though you can still resort to vulching for hours if you want now. But there is a different option, where there didn't used to be.
People would just wait for the goon to arrive, then all spawn in a big pack so it was impossible to kill them. They'd all grab planes to strafe the ground, or have bombs which they would drop to kill the troops. It was almost impossible to capture a field if a couple of people sat there in wait for the goon to arrive. You could NEVER protect the goon properly since one person could spoil the whole attack and there was nothing you could do about it.
It sure pisses me off not being able to spawn at a field to defend, then again, that just means the enemy has done their job to deny me that. Endless spawning sucks, we've been down that road before and I'm glad it isn't the issue it is now.
-Soda
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<S> Soda. I guess it depends on what side of the coin you're on. You're post proves a point. Fields are ridiculously easy to take now. How realistic ( and I apologize for using the "R" word )is it to disable air-ops by simply killing 1 or 2 buildings? I think one should "work" for the capture if thats what they wanna do. Take down the whole field, all of it, then that disables air-ops. Once thats down, your scenario of a mass spawn wouldn't be an issue.
[This message has been edited by Apache (edited 03-23-2001).]
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nash... really, i do see your point. I have laid out in the past my idea for a large arena with seperate "area's".. what happens if you get too detailed is that people tend to pick one or another detail and focus on that only. throwing out the baby with the bathwater. OTOH, i dissagree that you can't make small changes. adding revetments would kill some of the gimicky feel to the capture and allow fighters to take off for longer or till most of the field was down.
I don't think you can seperate the issues of bomber concessions with strat. If you make the bombers too defensless then they will just not be unused. Bomb damage should be more realistic but so should the targets. If the fighters are "forced" to attack buffs and the only way to attack them in a timely and usefull manner is suicide.... Buffs become/are even more resented. Many fighter jocks (as apache says) are very resentfull that their fun can be "spoiled" so easily by bombers.
If fields were easier to close and capture but fighters available till the end then you would have more people participating in the strat. As it is.... The bombers are using fighter availability and limits as their sole strat. many who are only interested in fighters only see that some "jerk" in a bomber is ruining all the fights and/or making them take off from 2-3 fields away. In light of how few actual resets we have it seems even more silly and contrived with bombers having it all their way.
Believe me... We do not admire this skill.
lazs