Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: weazel on December 16, 2002, 06:14:46 PM
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Sweden takes the title from the US. :(
Sweden Providing Platform for U.S. Officials Cowed by Bush
Intimidated bureaucrats regain their voice as protected guests of a genuinely democratic regime.
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By: Dennis Hans - 12/11/02
STOCKHOLM — Blaine Williams hasn’t stopped grinning since he arrived in Sweden two weeks ago. Several times a day he’ll approach a complete stranger, offer a handshake and a smile, introduce himself as a former CIA analyst from America, and proceed to tell the bewildered Swede all the things he knows that directly contradict President George W. Bush’s declarations about Saddam Hussein’s intentions and capabilities.
“Free at last!” Williams exclaimed to a reporter as he sat on his front porch and waved to new neighbors. “I was stuck in a totalitarian bureaucracy for 14 months. What a relief it is to say in public who I am and what I think.”
Williams is the first of dozens of former U.S. government employees expected to take refuge in Sweden over the next several months, courtesy of a bold project of the new social democratic government.
On October 15, the Swedish Parliament appropriated 500 million dollars for the “Palme Plan.” Named for former Swedish president Olaf Palme, it promotes the virtues of free and honest speech among government officials in underdeveloped democracies.
“Swedes have always been generous in providing economic aid to countries with underdeveloped economies,” said Erland Carlsson, the parliamentarian who conceived the Palme Plan. “But we’ve done little to promote democratic development in underdeveloped democracies.”
Some leaders of underdeveloped democracies have welcomed Sweden’s “democracy teams,” encouraging their efforts to create a culture of candor and transparency in the corridors of power. Those efforts comprise the overt component of the Palme Plan. The covert component kicks in when a leader is hostile to the very notions of candor and transparency.
Palme, who was Carlsson’s political mentor, believed his greatest failure as president was his inability, during the Vietnam War, to persuade U.S. officialdom of the virtues of public candor. “Palme believed that if the national security bureaucracy had not been cowed into silence in the face of a torrent of deceit from a determined White House, the U.S. would never have invaded and destroyed Vietnam,” Carlsson said.
An October 8 story in the Houston Chronicle, by Jonathan Landy and Warren Strobel (http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/nation/1607676), convinced Carlsson that the same suffocating environment had enveloped key sectors of the Bush administration.
Thirteen officials from the CIA, State Department and Pentagon, many with vast experience in the Middle East and South Asia, told Landy and Strobel the same thing: The White House has squelched dissent, imposed conformity and silence, demanded skewed analyses to justify its hard line, and repeatedly exaggerated or falsified intelligence information to inflate the Saddam threat.
What most alarmed the Swedish MP was that none of the analysts were willing to be quoted by name. Some were too frightened even to be quoted anonymously.
“I couldn’t help thinking that if these informed, respected patriots could raise their voices openly and in unison, they’d stop the administration’s chicken hawks in their tracks,” Carlsson said. “Public and congressional support for the war path would whither, and the president would be exposed as the world’s most crooked ‘straight shooter.’”
Borrowing Bush’s Brilliant Idea
When Bush insisted that U.N. weapons inspectors be able to take Iraqi scientists and their families outside of Iraq for interviews, thus protecting the scientists from possible retaliation by Saddam’s secret police, Carlsson had the solution that had eluded Palme so many years ago.
“That’s it!” he told a colleague. “We’ll offer U.S. bureaucrats and their families safe passage to Sweden and a secure environment from which they can speak freely and publicly to the folks back home. They can stay here at our expense until a climate of openness and honesty prevails in the Bush administration.”
In addition to Williams, 28 other bureaucrats and their families are en route to Stockholm. All were spirited out of Washington by a team of Swedish secret agents who had honed their rescue skills in Yugoslavia and the Congo.
Once the former officials settle into their new homes and get comfortable with saying who they are and what they think, they’ll spend their time giving speeches an interviews.
Former CIA analyst Williams is already a sensation on Swedish TV as a regular guest on the top-rated chat show, Nugen Farger (“Hard Rugby”). On a recent edition, he parsed a string of Bush’s statements on Iraq, including assertions at a Republican fundraiser that Saddam Hussein hopes to deploy al Qaeda as his “forward army” against the West, and that “we need to think about Saddam Hussein using al Qaeda to do his dirty work, to not leave fingerprints behind.”
“I can assure you,” Williams told Swedish viewers, “that no one at CIA believes a word Bush said. What’s more, no one at CIA believes that Bush believes a word Bush said.”
Strong words, and Williams anticipates an echo chamber as more of Sweden’s newest residents regain their voice. But he wonders if members of the U.S. news media, particularly those he calls “the boobs on the tube,” will dare to listen.
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Interesting writing technique by the Author. Source?
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Sweden just announced the sale of 200 of sweden's newest fighter jets to Iraq, when asked about the sale , sweden's govt said " hey , we sold ball bearings to Hitler , so whats the big deal?"
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This is a joke right? Sweden is not actually using their intelligence services to help US intelligence agents defect? I can't believe they would do anything this foolish.
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hehe, that is too funny to be true.
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SCOOP (http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0212/S00082.htm)
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Interesting writing technique by the Author. Source?
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Or is this just your usual knee jerk spin to anything that shatters your illusions about chimpy?
Originally posted by john9001
Sweden just announced the sale of 200 of sweden's newest fighter jets to Iraq, when asked about the sale , sweden's govt said " hey , we sold ball bearings to Hitler , so whats the big deal?"
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Yellow Journalism at its best....:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by funkedup
This is a joke right? Sweden is not actually using their intelligence services to help US intelligence agents defect? I can't believe they would do anything this foolish.
The US wouldn't use it's military to conduct covert propaganda operations in allied countried would it?
"Dennis Hans files fantastic stories from cities he’s never visited for the Wishful Thinking Express. He is a freelance writer whose work has appeared in the New York Times, Washington Post, National Post (Canada) and online at TomPaine.com, Slate and The Black World Today (tbwt.com), among other outlets. He has taught courses in mass communications and American foreign policy at the University of South Florida-St. Petersburg. Dennis is a contributing writer for Liberal Slant and can be reached at HANS_D@popmail.firn.edu "
I would like to see this story verified by another source.
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Originally posted by funkedup
This is a joke right? Sweden is not actually using their intelligence services to help US intelligence agents defect? I can't believe they would do anything this foolish.
well.. they were one of the most important business partners with the nazi germany :>
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clipped from "scoop"
- Dennis Hans files fantastic stories from cities he's never visited for the Wishful Thinking Express. He is a freelance writer whose work has appeared in the New York Times, Washington Post, National Post (Canada) and online at TomPaine.com, Slate and The Black World Today (tbwt.com), among other outlets. He has taught courses in mass communications and American foreign policy at the University of South Florida-St. Petersburg. Dennis is a contributing writer for Liberal Slant and can be reached at mailto:HANS_D@popmail.firn.edu
dennis hans wrote the "sweden" story
so , people , dennis hans is just another lying liberal.
this guy teaches a course in "foreign policy' at a university, no wonder our grads are so messed up.
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¡ |_ () |_ !
sweden is now part of the axis of evil
i want to see grippen vs. f-15 dogfight
report anyone who drinks absout, aquavit or pripp's blå to TIPS
will Vilgot Sjöman be the next tokyo rose?
ace of base is subversive
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Knee-jerk.
Another lemming blasted by the "Milhouse 9000 GOP brainwashing gun".
"dennis hans wrote the "sweden" story
so , people , dennis hans is just another lying liberal.
this guy teaches a course in "foreign policy' at a university, no wonder our grads are so messed up."
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one winter when i was there in 87 they showed political refugees on television and they were like 20 american soldiers who got out of nam and got political asylum. the had a interview with one guy who pretty much said he was betrayed my his country ( in hindsight he was right ) then they had another interview with him 20 years later he still felt the same way and was so anti american he spoke english with a accent.
befor that i didnt think that was even possible.
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I am not saying I don't believe people from America could say such things... I just don't share the perception. Your friend the Viet Nam vet may have a point- bureacrats calling America "totalitarian" are a bit nuts, and frankly we are well rid of them.
And Weazel, seriously fellow... seek some help. There's a lot of hate boiling over there. Read the stuff you posted on AGW... wow.
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I sometimes get the feeling , reading these boards, that some of us are convinced the second world war is still going on.
There were no innocent parties to that conflict. However, whilst we fly a WWII flightsim, the actual war ended over 50 years ago.
Hitler is dead.
We don't hate Germans anymore.
Swedes sold Steel to everyone, provided a haven for those fleeing persecution in nazi Germany and hosted many parties with top brass from all sides in attendance.
People need to stop watching SPR now, and return to the 21st centruty maybe?
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Originally posted by john9001
Sweden just announced the sale of 200 of sweden's newest fighter jets to Iraq, when asked about the sale , sweden's govt said " hey , we sold ball bearings to Hitler , so whats the big deal?"
eh? what are you wittering on about
(clue: source?)
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But I guess I'm supposed to muzzle my thoughts or opinions, to become *PC* in order to fit in with all the other lemmings with their heads in the sand...right?
Not in this lifetime...it's revolting to see all the people that "follow the winner"...in my eyes these people are selling out America and everything it's supposed to stand for...all so they can be part of the *in* crowd.
Wrong or right I will always tell it the way I see it, if people can't handle that....too bad.
"There's a lot of hate boiling over there. Read the stuff you posted on AGW... wow."
Your one of the most unbiased republicans on the two UBBs...but I don't ever recall you telling any of the extremist right wingers to "seek some help" when their frustration boils over...or are you trying to be part of the *in* crowd by being silent?
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Really? You've never seen my comments to Eagler or Hortlund? Cabby? Well... might as well suggest to MG he vote Republican. Opposite ends of the spectrum, equally intractible. The one difference is that Cabby can usually back a lot of his comments up, at least to the point of making a clear argument. To top it off, they have always been that way, you haven't.
Check the comment today on the "Gore won't run in 2004" thread. Eagler made the comment that "any Republican was better than any Dumacrat". Check my response.
Anyway, I say this to you because I think you may not realize just how angry you sound. No, not angry... over the top. It is real concern, take it how you wish.
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Dennis Hans files fantastic stories from cities he’s never visited for the Wishful Thinking Express.
I think this is a clear indication that the article was intended as humor.
The image of Swedish secret agents honing their skills in the Congo should have been a tipoff. Can you picture an undercover Swede in the Congo?
So don't get your panties all in a bunch about Sweden, fellow patriots. :)
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PS Concur with Kieran re: Weazel's paranoia.
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I gotta chime in here.
Some might think I'm a little to the left of Jesse Jackson, and they might be right, but that article was just plain silly Weazel. Surely there is plenty of legitimate ammo out there.
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In other words, I and others who disagree or see major problems with decisions made by chimpy are not only "unpatriotic," but now we're all "nut bags" or "paranoid"".
You've learned the "conservative" mantra well funked, chimpy is proud of you.
Originally posted by funkedup
PS Concur with Kieran re: Weazel's paranoia.
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the fact that you keep using the name 'chimpy ' shows that your mind is closed tighter than algores "lock box"
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Originally posted by weazel
In other words, I and others who disagree or see major problems with decisions made by chimpy are not only "unpatriotic," but now we're all "nut bags" or "paranoid"".
No. Because in that case I would be calling myself a nut bag or paranoid. I'm a little nutty and sometimes unpatriotic, but I don't think I'm paranoid.
The ones I would call paranoid:
People who can go through everyday life in the US and see it as a totalitarian state, to the point that they will condone acts of treason and espionage against the US government.
People who are so convinced of the existence of the totalitarian state, that they will believe joke stories from fringe leftie sites.
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It's a sign of DISRESPECT for the white trash in the White House.
Did you have to come up for air? I'm surprised you could read my post with all that sand in your eyes.
Please make up some more funny lies for me to read.
"Sweden just announced the sale of 200 of sweden's newest fighter jets to Iraq, when asked about the sale , sweden's govt said " hey , we sold ball bearings to Hitler , so whats the big deal?"
Originally posted by john9001
the fact that you keep using the name 'chimpy ' shows that your mind is closed tighter than algores "lock box"
On another note how about that good old boy Elliot Abrams being the latest criminal to join chimpys team...anyone remember him?
The administration of President George W. Bush announced the appointment of Iran-Contra figure Elliott Abrams to the region's top policy spot in the National Security Council (NSC).
He was indicted by the Iran-Contra special prosecutor for giving false testimony about his role in illicitly raising money for the Contras but pleaded guilty to two lesser offenses of withholding information to Congress in order to avoid a trial and a possible jail term. He was pardoned by President George H.W. Bush along with a number of other Iran-Contra defendants in 1992.
His credibility for truth-telling was so low that at one point he was required to take an oath before testifying before Congressional committees. Most analysts believe that he was given an NSC post by the new Bush administration because any other position would have required Senate confirmation.
Yeah....I'm paranoid funked, with the line up of crooks in chimpys administration you should be too.
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I gotta chime in here.
Some might think I'm a little to the left of Jesse Jackson, and they might be right, but that article was just plain silly Weazel. Surely there is plenty of legitimate ammo out there.
This is the same weazel who just said that Reagan deserved his Alzheimer's. So what do you expect?
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don't let em get to ya weazel... sean penn and martin sheen agree with you along with all those lefty "journalists" you dredge up from the bottom of the internet pond... At least the actors only come out once in a while. Anyhow... keep fighting the good fight... you really are one of the few in America thjat doesn't have his head buried in the sand... maybe martin sheen will invite you to a party?
lazs
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weazel, when you post an article like that and try to pass it off as truth you hurt liberal causes, not help them.
One thing that pretty much defines liberalism for me is open mindedness. It seems to me that your vitriol and poorly thought out arguements goes against this.
If you want to convince someone of the rightness of your ideas and ideals, then clear, concise arguements are probably going to serve you better, and even then people might come back with insults and childness. But at least the strength of your agruments will prevail in the debate. And sometimes the other guys arguement will be stronger, but that's okay, because then you've learned something and can adjust your beliefs to the new information.
I will guarantee one thing though, to come here with anger and hate, with lies and spin, will get the people you are trying to convince backs up. And it will let them justify, to themselves, any generalistic beliefs they hold about you, the group of people they feel you represent.
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Well... I gotta admit... it does reinforce my view that liberals are all about lies, spin and vitriol. I allways ask when I see a liberal lie.... Is your cause so bogus that you have to lie about it? I allways recall the "the end justifies the means" liberal mantra.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
Well... I gotta admit... it does reinforce my view that liberals are all about lies, spin and vitriol. I allways ask when I see a liberal lie.... Is your cause so bogus that you have to lie about it? I allways recall the "the end justifies the means" liberal mantra.
lazs
Like I always say, never generalize. Everyone hates it.
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Damn wiezelle thanks for a good laugh, at you... Fool! However why don't you make a permenent investigative trip to Sweden in order to confirm the story.
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Fjord, a Swede over at AGW, just checked his tax "W2" equivelent of our W2, he paid 79% in taxes. :eek: Its funny how the liberals in the US always point to Sweden as a model society...gee, I wonder why? ;) (Hint: Democrats love to tax and spend)
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Liberals are not ALL about lies, spin, and propaganda. Some are hard-working, average Joes who have genuine concerns about their country and the welfare of the people in it. We disagree on some points and agree on others. Neither side of the political spectrum is well served by the vitriolic invective of their radical members. Rather, it debases the value inherent in the thoughtful exchange of ideas between those with opposing points of view. Juvenile rantings have no place in such discussions on this board.
So THERE! Neener, neener, neener!
Shuckins
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Gawlee you talk gooooood! Ain't you from Arkansas? Musta moved there or something.
:D
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Eloquently put, Thrawn.
Sorry for the pig-pile, Weazel, it isn't really what I intended at all. I've just been struck by the intensity of your posts of late is all. And you are right, a few of the guys ought to lay back on the cheap shots.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Its funny how the liberals in the US always point to Sweden as a model society...gee, I wonder why?
You right, they should point to these countries first.
"UNITED NATIONS -- Norway is the best country to live in, and Sierra Leone the worst, according to a United Nations report.
The Human Development Rrport, released on Tuesday, ranked 162 countries according to per capita income, health care, life expectancy and educational levels.
Australia followed Norway in second place, with both countries narrowly ahead of Canada, the leader for the last six years, which slipped due to statistical revisions, the authors said."
"The rate is lowest in Sweden (ranked fourth) and Japan (ninth), where one out of eight people is expected to die before 60 years of age.
In the U.S., ranked sixth, the probability of an infant not surviving to the age of 60 is 12.8 percent, the report shows."
http://europe.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/07/10/un.development/
But fourth isn't bad. Can you tell me about how Canada sux again Rip :D
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But Norway isn't part of the E.U.! :eek: :cool: (I know, neither is the US ;) )
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Originally posted by Thrawn
But fourth isn't bad. Can you tell me about how Canada sux again Rip :D
Care to compare Immigrant charters for those going to the USA from Canada, and V/V? :)
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MT,
Naw! I did not move here. Actually I am the product of a local delta school. During the 60s it was top-notch. Sadly, that is no longer the case. A combination of fiscal mismanagement, rising drug use in the community, and mean-spirited local politics has taken its toll. It is still possible to obtain a good education there, but fewer and fewer students avail themselves of the opportunity.
The flight of the middle class, both black and white, hasn't helped matters either.
Shuckins
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Yep rip, 79% taxes. And Denmark is even worse. For every crown we pay in taxes, we (healthy people with higher educations) get perhaps 2-5% back through education, roads etc. The rest is swallowed by the welfare state.
And unpopular as this might be to say, a disproportionate amount (and I'm talking VERY much so) goes to welfare for refugees, immigrants and the like. I say refugees, but what a good part of em are fleeing isn't war, but poverty. The strain on a well devveloped welfare system is enormous. I'll find some figures: maybe then you yanks will stop complaining about high taxes :D
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Weazel....
It's obvious that you can throw stones....why don't you tell us who you feel would honor the office of President...only got two more years for the chance to put GWB out on his kister.
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How about someone who's not a deserter from the US armed forces...or doesn't surround themselves with criminals from a previous administration?
I realize that weeds out 99% of republican OR democrat politcos...but surely in that last 1% there's a good man for the job.
Anyway, I'll leave all you ditto heads to your mutual admiration society...I'm outta here.
Originally posted by Rude
Weazel....
It's obvious that you can throw stones....why don't you tell us who you feel would honor the office of President...only got two more years for the chance to put GWB out on his kister.
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well, weazel has done one positive thing , he has got me and Thrawn to agree on something ,sortof
:cool:
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Nice dodge Weazel...you wouldn't be one of those guys who criticizes everything and everyone, yet never offers a viable alternative would ya?
If Bush is the Anti-Christ, who would you in your wisdom, choose to replace him?
A real answer would be nice this time:)
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No matter who I choose, 3rd world cretins like grunherz, or liars like john9001 will take another shot at insulting me for my choice.
I'm not ashamed to be an American...however I AM ashamed of all those who feel that having a deserter as president...a president who surrounds himself with criminals from previous administrations is acceptable or desireable.
There's nothing about the current administration that should make anyone "proud to be an American."
It should make us all hang our heads in shame to be lead by a low life white trash deserter who's never done an honest day of work in his life...one who couldn't even complete a tour in the National Guard during wartime...the very tour that kept him from combat duty.
This really is my last word in the O'Club...the back slapping mutual admiration society of republican dittoheads has won the war of words...your illusions are still intact...find another whipping boy.
I have come to recognize that you can lead a person to knowledge...but you can't make him think...and reality as I see it is that many dittoheads are content to allow others to think for them....
Thrawn, I never claimed to "represent" liberals, my opinions are my own.
Don't sweat it kieran, your still one of the good guys.
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A 3rd world cretin! Thats great wiezelle, how's the packing going for your trip to sweden?
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Shhhhhhh he's busy signalling morse code to his Swedish Intel contact.
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LOL :D
I'm picking it up on my GOP Black Helicopter scanner...
dit it dit diit diit it dit diiit diit it diiit dit
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Operation CHIMPLER SUPRIZE
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Jawohl!
The ninjas are fast-roping on wiezelle's safehouse as we speak...
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Weazel, come back. I enjoy your perspective.
And he has a point. A lot of Republicans were making comments much worse than his during Clintons presidency.
Bush's papers regarding his service disappeared, leaving no proof whether he went AWOL or not. He's hiring convicted criminals...or at least convicted liars. That much is not disputable.
And his harsh words are just a mirror of some words that were said during the Clinton administration by reps here. So in a way his crowned 'dittoheads' are as much critisixing themselvesd as weazel when they call 'im names :).
This is good stuff, this :D
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I'd agree, different perspectives are always needed. I'd also agree I was as pissed as anyone could be by Clinton, and made no secret about it.
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Originally posted by StSanta
Weazel, come back. I enjoy your perspective.
And he has a point. A lot of Republicans were making comments much worse than his during Clintons presidency.
This is good stuff, this :D
Yea I remember all those Clinton is Hitler posts and seemingly serious accusations about a dictatorship.
Wiezelle has shown his true colors and they are yellow and blue, off to sweden you go....
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More news on the Bush administrations efforts:
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WASHINGTON, DC—Flanked by key members of Congress and his administration, President Bush approved Monday a streamlined version of the Bill of Rights that pares its 10 original amendments down to a "tight, no-nonsense" six.
A Republican initiative that went unopposed by congressional Democrats, the revised Bill of Rights provides citizens with a "more manageable" set of privacy and due-process rights by eliminating four amendments and condensing and/or restructuring five others. The Second Amendment, which protects the right to keep and bear arms, was the only article left unchanged.
Calling the historic reduction "a victory for America," Bush promised that the new document would do away with "bureaucratic impediments to the flourishing of democracy at home and abroad."
"It is high time we reaffirmed our commitment to this enduring symbol of American ideals," Bush said. "By making the Bill of Rights a tool for progress instead of a hindrance to freedom, we honor the true spirit of our nation's forefathers."
The Fourth Amendment, which long protected citizens' homes against unreasonable search and seizure, was among the eliminated amendments. Also stricken was the Ninth Amendment, which stated that the enumeration of certain Constitutional rights does not result in the abrogation of rights not mentioned.
"Quite honestly, I could never get my head around what the Ninth Amendment meant anyway," said outgoing House Majority Leader Dick Armey (R-TX), one of the leading advocates of the revised Bill of Rights. "So goodbye to that one."
Amendments V through VII, which guaranteed the right to legal counsel in criminal cases, and guarded against double jeopardy, testifying against oneself, biased juries, and drawn-out trials, have been condensed into Super-Amendment V: The One About Trials.
Attorney General John Ashcroft hailed the slimmed-down Bill of Rights as "a positive step."
"Go up to the average citizen and ask them what's in the Bill of Rights," Ashcroft said. "Chances are, they'll have only a vague notion. They just know it's a set of rules put in place to protect their individual freedoms from government intrusion, and they assume that's a good thing."
Above: Bush works on revisions to the Bill of Rights.
Above: Bush works on revisions to the Bill of Rights.
Ashcroft responded sharply to critics who charge that the Bill of Rights no longer safeguards certain basic, inalienable rights.
"We're not taking away personal rights; we're increasing personal security," Ashcroft said. "By allowing for greater government control over the particulars of individual liberties, the Bill of Rights will now offer expanded personal freedoms whenever they are deemed appropriate and unobtrusive to the activities necessary to effective operation of the federal government."
Ashcroft added that, thanks to several key additions, the Bill of Rights now offers protections that were previously lacking, including the right to be protected by soldiers quartered in one's home (Amendment III), the guarantee that activities not specifically delegated to the states and people will be carried out by the federal government (Amendment VI), and freedom of Judeo-Christianity and non-combative speech (Amendment I).
According to U.S. Sen. Larry Craig (R-ID), the original Bill of Rights, though well-intentioned, was "seriously outdated."
"The United States is a different place than it was back in 1791," Craig said. "As visionary as they were, the framers of the Constitution never could have foreseen, for example, that our government would one day need to jail someone indefinitely without judicial review. There was no such thing as suspicious Middle Eastern immigrants back then."
Ashcroft noted that recent FBI efforts to conduct investigations into "unusual activities" were severely hampered by the old Fourth Amendment.
"The Bill of Rights was written more than 200 years ago, long before anyone could even fathom the existence of wiretapping technology or surveillance cameras," Ashcroft said. "Yet through a bizarre fluke, it was still somehow worded in such a way as to restrict use of these devices. Clearly, it had to go before it could do more serious damage in the future."
The president agreed.
"Any machine, no matter how well-built, periodically needs a tune-up to keep it in good working order," Bush said. "Now that we have the bugs worked out of the ol' Constitution, she'll be purring like a kitten when Congress reconvenes in January—just in time to work on a new round of counterterrorism legislation."
"Ten was just too much of a handful," Bush added. "Six civil liberties are more than enough."
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:eek: Run for the hills!