Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: hazed- on December 17, 2002, 11:26:02 AM
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I noticed the stuka we have , by this i actually mean the EXACT model we have represented is the same ju87 that was flown by the RAF and was written about in 'wings of the luftwaffe' by Capt.eric brown
it is Ju87 D-3 (Werk-Nr 2491) T6+BC of stab II Gruppe Stukageschwader 2 "Immelmann" operating in stalingrad autumn/winter 1942.
this very ju87 is illustrated in the book and has the siren.There is also a cutaway diagram that shows the siren.
Maybe it was too much trouble to model it but it certainly did have it.
HTC is it possible you will add it later? or was it found to be too hard to include?
Im not complaining, just a little dissapointed we havent got it.
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Are there any real world pictures of that plane in that book?
Or are they just illustrations and diagrams?
If it's the latter, those are commonly incorrect in many publications (even "notable" ones).
-SW
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well theres no photo of this actual aircraft but there is one of a ju87-D3 of 4./St.G.77 which clearly shows the sirens.
Also theres a ju87-D1, a ju87-D2 and a ju87-D5 with the sirens.
I think this is likely to be a pilots preference in a loadout by the looks of it as there are pictures of ju87s in the same squadron with and without sirens.
btw AKSW the picture is a plan veiw with close up illustraions of the insignia and the 'barli' writing. Drawn it seems from the aircraft itself or id suspect a photo of it.In the book it calls it the 'general arrangement drawing' as if its part of the report? I cant be sure.
Also the cutaway drawing of the ju87-d3 has the siren.Surely its unlikely they have made a mistake and if they have why on earth has HTC used this particular ju87?
I would suspect its because the data that is available on this particular model from all the tests done on it by the RAF.In which case there seems to be scant reason to suppose they have the illustration wrong whilst having the other info correct does there?
I have to ask SW, where have you seen this 'commonly incorrect' illustrations you are refering to and how do you know for sure the d3 didnt have the siren? Just asking as you always seem to play devils advocate to my posts :)
rather than immediately dismissing my find as a common mistake how about you show me how you 'know' it is a mistake? ;)
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Shame no siren on stuka though - I don't care if it was really on there or not - it is just too cool a feature to have been left off. Frankly I may be a WWII history ignorant dolt - but I surely did expect the stuka to make noise, it would be 1/2 the fun of flying it.
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ya,,even on old airwarrior 3 the stuka had a dive siren,,,was cool to dive it and hear the screem,,,my buddy said he could even hear it while he was dog fighting me,,every time i nosed it down,,he too could hear it ,,,very cool,,,i hope they add it,,sure missing thats for sure,,but its still a good plane,,and i wont complain too much,because im just happy they released it at all,,lol
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Because illustrations and drawings of planes tend to be incorrect, unless done by Watanabe (I think that's his name, believe he's a Japanese artists).
I never said it was incorrect, I said they tend to be.
-SW
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Hazed the d5 had the dive flaps removed so why have a siren? I think your source maybe bogus is it shows the d5 with a siren.
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Wotan the source is 'wings of the luftwaffe' by Capt. eric brown.
The photos shown are all labeled and have their marks so if like you said the ju87-d5 had no sirens at all then i guess they could be labeled wrong.
but does it necessarily mean the stuka had to be in a dive to use sirens? maybe this pilot liked to scare enemy troops while he straffed them? :)
according to the picture it is a 'ju87-D-5 of 9./St.G.77 displaying well-worn temporary white winter finish'. it shows a stuka with sirens .Is there a simple way to identify a ju87-D5 over other marks? perhaps some info on this particular gruppe which could prove its another type other than d5?
from info in another book i have it says the ju87-d5 was 'intended' for ground attack only and had the dive brakes removed.Does this mean they actually couldnt dive bomb at all?
You could be right, and the book could be wrong in its labeling of pictures but then again it may be right.Would be nice to work it out one way or another.
I'll post the pictures later when i set up my scanner again.
P.S. AKSW just out of interest the illustrator of cut away is a guy called 'weal' . know of him?
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Never seen his illustrations. But just for example, I have a couple of books with 3-way view drawings, diagrams, and illustrations of certain aircraft.
One depicts the 109E has having the supercharger intake (I believe that's it, the one through the spinner) as a 20mm MGFF cannon. While another book's drawing indicates the small spinner on the Ju87 is in fact not a siren, but a power generator.
Those are just 2 examples I can remember off the top of my head.
I have a couple of books at home with diagrams of the Stuka, altho I believe they are B and G models. I'll check.
Still gonna check my books at home, but while I was over at the IL2 site, this is what is listed for the Ju87:
Main modifications:
Ju-87 D-1 - The first serial variant of the "D" modification. Additional cabin armor. Strengthened landing gear.
Ju-87 D-1 trop - A version with an additional air filter and other desert equipment.
Ju-87 D-2 - Planes of the series were intended for towing landing (transport) GO 242 and DFS 230 gliders. Strengthened tail assembly. New tail leg with a towing hook for the glider.
Ju-87 D-3 - Ground attack aircraft. Strengthened armor for the crew, engine and radiator. Aerodynamic sirens were removed.
Ju-87 D-4 - Prototype of land-based torpedo-bomber. The aircraft could carry one 533mm LTF 5B torpedo.
Ju-87 D-5 - Ground attack aircraft. Increased wingspan (15m). Increased bomb load. On-board armament: 2x20 mm (MG 151/20) - in the wing; a 2x7.9 mm (MG 81) - at the rear gunner's disposal.
Ju-87 D-6 - Simplified version of Ju-87 D-5 bomber-fighter. No serial production.
Ju-87 D-7 and D-8 - Variants intended for night operations. Installation of flame extinguishers and special equipment. Both variants had Ju 211P engines with 1,500 HP. Brake bars were removed on most of the planes.
D-7 - modernized D-3; D-8 - modernized D-5.
Ju-87 E - Carrier-borne variant of land-based version created on the basis of the Ju-87 D-1 aircraft, adjusted to carry the 533mm LTF 5B torpedo. The aircraft came with sea equipment similar to the Ju-87 C. No serial production.
Ju-87 F - Modified Ju-87 D aircraft with Ju 213 engine (rated 1,700 HP). It was anticipated that the aircraft would be equipped with large-diameter wheels and wings with considerable wingspan. No serial production.
-SW
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Ju-87 D-5 'Stuka'
Armament
2 x 20 mm MG 151/20
2 x 7.92mm MG 81
Propulsion
Engine: Junkers Jumo 211 J, V-12 inline
Power (combined): 1 300 HP
Specific power: 197 HP / ton
Maximum speed: 402 kph
Ceiling: 7 320 meters
Range: 1 000 km
Production
From: around June of 1943
To: N/A
http://lemairesoft.digitalrice.com/engins2/1461.html#1121
The Ju-87 D-3 had been found too slow and not enough maneuvrable by the crews. Learning from that, this new version of the Stuka had lengthened wings and more armement. The dive brakes were abandonned in the course of this series: the plane was almost never used as a dive bomber any more and only as ground support plane.
I still don't care, a siren would still be very cool. I am gettign confused as to which one we have anyway :)
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a dive siren would be cool,,if its a dive bomb model atleast,,because the siren was suposta help slow the plane a little and scare ground troops at the same time:)<~~but they figured out the dive flaps were anuff alone and the siren was more sound than anything,,but it would still be cool:)
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Is there a simple way to identify a ju87-D5 over other marks?
Yeah no dive flaps and no Siren :)
The Stuka was obsolete by the time of barbarossa but the lw need ground support aircraft to strike against armored spear heads in particularly against light armor and the support vehicles for the mbt. MBT were tough targets not like in ah and even the stuka couldnt achieve much against them. The stuka as it was originally designed was a battle interdiction weapon against soft targets, fixed defenses, and troop areas. In france it hit artillery and troop concentrations and broke reserves. This allowed the blitz to keep moving. The siren was added as terror tactic. Troops would give up their positions at the sound of the trumpets of jerico.
There was no use to having the siren on Schlacht aircraft as their targets were more often vehicles of some type and they attacked at low level.
With the d3 variant the lw was transforming the stuka from its original roll to a ground support aircraft. It had added armor to better take small arms ground fire. as a result it was heavier slower and manuvered worse then the d1.
The d5 was an attempt to lighten up and restore some manuverability to the aircraft. Anything that wasnt necessary was removed. The dive flaps were gone the wheel farings etc. The d5 wings were extended. Theres no logical for the siren to be on either the d3 or the d5. And the siren only worked at speeds achieved in a dive. Low level it would do nothing.
Rudel achieved most of armor kills in g model. the d3 became a g1 the d5 a g2. Rudel was an exception and a true nut who should have been dead numerous times.
The Fw 190 g and f were replacing the stukas as fast as possible.
For what its worth dont rely on pics unless you know the source even if they are reprinted in books.
Even searching the web.
It just makes no sense to keep the siren on the d3 or d5 models.
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http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/ju87d.html
Lots of pictures but I don't know what I am looking for.
(http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/ju87d-1.jpg)
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We dont need no stinkin siren
this is all we need
(http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/ju87g-2.jpg)
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I wouldn't trust just a single source, whether it's written, TV, or Web. I've seen blatant errors in all three. Is there a second source?
It'd be nice to have several photographs of several different Ju87 D3s along with when & where the pic was taken. If we can prove that atleast one production Ju87-D3 had a siren (installed during or after production), then maybe we could convince HT to add an optional siren. For now, I'm not convinced.
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I want the damn siren and the BFG's (Big Fuggin Guns)
think of all the tank killing you could do in that thing!
Box
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Well, what I have is inconclusive. I have books with pictures of obviously D model Ju87s, still having dive flaps and bomb carrying (centerline and wing mounted), with no dive siren.... they are listed as Ju87D-3s, each picture is of them operating on the Eastern Front.
But then there's 2 dif drawings of Ju87D-3s by Watanabe, one has a dive siren... one doesn't.
-SW
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Originally posted by Wotan
Hazed the d5 had the dive flaps removed so why have a siren? I think your source maybe bogus is it shows the d5 with a siren.
Probably around half of the production D-5s indeed did have the dive breaks.
Here's one of them:
This is one of the Gefechtsverband Kuhlmey's Ju-87D-5s you can easily see both 20mm cannons and dive breaks there.
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(http://users.swing.be/airimg/12369.jpg)
This is deffinately a pic of a d5 and it has dive flaps still there.
Captioned
Of Ju-87 D-5 in camouflage of winter on takeoff. Although it is this version which lost the air-brakes, the two specimens of the photograph are still equipped with it.
The Dora began deliveries in January 1942 to units on the Eastern Front. This had an up-rated 1400 hp engine and an increased bombload of nearly 4000 lbs (1800 kg) for short-range missions. Protection for the air crew increased with additional armor and replacement of the rear armament and its mount with an armored GSL-K 81Z turret mounting a twin-barreled MG 81Z 7.92mm machine-gun. The fuel system was similar to that of the R model with wing tanks that increased normal range to 510 miles (822 km). Underwing drop tanks extended the Dora's maximum range to 954 miles (1538 km).
Much effort was devoted to streamlining the Dora, one example being the repositioning of the Berta's massive chin radiator to positions underneath the wings and the oil cooler mounted in its place, but maximum speed only increased to 255 mph (410 kph) As part of this effort the landing gear redesigned to handle the increased weight in a trimmer installation which proved to be rather less sturdy than the Berta's.
The D-2 sub model was designed as a dedicated glider tug with a strengthened rear fuselage although almost any Ju 87 could be fitted with the appropriate hardware.
The D-3 featured more armor, protecting the engine, radiators, and fuselage belly as the Stuka was being used more in the the low-level attack role. The dive sirens which so discomfited Allied troops in the early years of the war were removed because they had lost their effectiveness.
Some D-1s and D-3s were modified as D-4s to carry a torpedo, but the torpedo attack role was better filled by the faster He 111H and Ju 88A bombers which could also carry more torpedoes. All D-4s were reconverted back to D-1 and D-3 standard without ever flying an operational sortie.
The D-5 sub model began to delete the dive brakes as unnecessary since they weren't used much. By mid-'43 when the D-5 was introduced the Stukas were more often used in the close-support role than as dive-bombers. Presumably this was due to the loss of total air superiority by the Luftwaffe so that the Stukas couldn't climb to the altitudes needed to dive-bomb properly without fighter escort, but ground-level attack missions could go on regardless. The D-5 also replaced its wing-mounted 7.92mm machine guns with 20mm cannon, had extended wings to reduce the wing loading and re-introduced the jettisonable undercarriage of the Clara to make belly landings safer.
As the aerial environment became less hospitable for the Doras they were transferred to night ground-attack units (Nachtschlachtgruppen) where their disadvantages were less apparent. The D-7s and D-8s flown by these units were modified from D-3s and D-5s respectively by the substitution of a 1500 hp engine and the addition of flame dampening tubes for the engine exhaust. These aircraft usually operated in flare-dropper/attack teams or under ground-based radio control, the latter referred to as the Egon procedure. The former method required one aircraft to drop flares to illuminate or silhouette the target so it could be attacked by the other aircraft. This was very similar to the method adopted by the British Fleet Air Arm for its night torpedo and bombing strikes, Taranto being the best-known example.
However some Stukas still flew by day as their special abilities required. These Gustav models were specialized tank killers, nicknamed the Panzerknacker (tank cracker) or Kanonenvogel (cannon bird). G-1s were minimal conversions from D-3s while G-2s were rebuilt D-5s that were much cleaner aerodynamically than the G-1. A pair of underwing Flak 18 37mm flak guns were mounted with 12 rounds per gun, the normal wing armament generally being deleted to save weight. The 37mm guns proved capable of destroying all but the heaviest Soviet tanks with their tungsten-cored shells. The Panzerknackers were extremely vulnerable to enemy fighters, but they flew on regardless until the end of the war.
This d5 (Werknummer 494083) has no dive flaps.
(http://www.bingo-ev.de/~eb2948/Museum/Bilder/Hen21.jpg)
If ya really want to prove d3s had a dive siren then heres some books for yas.
Stuka/Die Geschichte Der Ju-87
ISBN : 3 87943 2910 Smith Pc
Junkers Ju87 Stuka
ISBN : 1 86126 1772 Smith Peter C
Luftwaffe At War : Stuka Spearhead
ISBN : 1 85367 3293 Smith P
Junker JU87 Stuka
ISBN : 1 84037 1986 Griehl, Manfred
Luftwaffe at War 9: Stukas Over the Steppe 1941-1945
ISBN : 1 85367 3552 Smith Peter C
Stukas over the Mediterranean 1940-45 Luftwaffe at War 11
ISBN : 1 85367 3765 Smith Peter
Junkers Ju 87 Stuka
ISBN : 0 88740 4774 Elfrath
Junkers Ju 87 Story
ISBN : X 909 00019X Mbi
Junkers Ju 87 Stuka Vol 2
ISBN : 0 7643 0092X Zobel F
(Oca.1) Junkers Ju87 Stuka 1937-41.
ISBN : 1 85532 6361 Weal J
Stukas ! Les Avions Allemands D'attaque
ISBN : 2 8404 81006 Leonard H
Stuka Dive Bomber*Pursuit-Bomber*Pilots.
ISBN : 0 88740 216X Aders/Held
Uwaga Stukas Pt.1
ISBN : 83 911393 1X Michulec R
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I have a book "Hitler's Luftwaffe" with the same picture (what is called a D-5 in winter war paint) and it is identified as a Ju 87D-8 being operated by Stukageschwader 77 during the winter of 1943-44 with dive barkes. One of the reason for these seemly errors in modle identification is because of the "Reparturbetrieb" or rebuild centers , the Minerva Works in Mortsel Belgium did complete rebuild of both Ju 87s and Me 109s, Junkers set up a center for their aircraft repair/rebuild at Courcelles Belgium. The Rivierenhof plant was producing a completly rebuilt Me 109 every hour 24 hours a day. The version of aircraft they produced were more up-graded than what was coming off the production lines as the latest equipment mods were applied, this made it possable for a rebuilt Ju 87-D3 to come off the production line with a rebuilt D-8 wings.
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So there were some D-3s fitted with sirens? I should think it could be made an option in the hangar?
BTW, does anyone else think the Stuka is the evilest looking plane to grace the skies of WW2? It's like the aviation embodiment of Nazism. ;)
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I too have the "Hitler's Luftwaffe" book, and it's not always accurate. Used it as reference in a Ta-152 discussion some time ago, and got stomped on so hard by the 152 lovers here that I'm still trying to recover (;)). Don't trust it.
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the original design had the landing gear goose-stepping across the sky...jew-seeking bomb never worked out either...
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BTW, does anyone else think the Stuka is the evilest looking plane to grace the skies of WW2
funny you say that,,because if you read about the goofy guy you invented the stuka,,he said he sold his soul to the devil for the stuka design<~~the guy was a really out there i guess,,or was he?,,hehehehe
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No Spats...............but with a siren.............seems familiar but no nose sig
(http://www.btinternet.com/~lee_mail/Ju87-8.jpg)
here with spats (with the number 2)......same fuselage code and nose art as ours........could this be "our AH stuka"? Its got a siren..
(http://www.btinternet.com/~lee_mail/Ju87-2.jpg)
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=669393)
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Originally posted by Wotan
We dont need no stinkin siren
this is all we need
Agreed.............with ap rounds...........
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I'm sorry but.....I want sound effects, if I fly something ugly I want it to sound ugly!
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Could this be a job for Mitsu? The "high speed" sound with the wind blowing ... don't you hear that sound when diving? Couldn't someone just mix in som siren noise with that?
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lol whgates
You've got to admit the Stuka is synonimous with the Germans in WW2. It's a flying jack-boot.
GScholz - maybe that's the answer? Just sub the wind sound for any siren noise, for the stuka. I'm gonna try it tonight.
Shame people on the ground won't hear it.
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"It's a flying jack-boot."
I knew there was a reason I was sad upon hearing of your imminent departure, glad you stayed - you little commie toejam! :D
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More importantly, I'm reasonably certain... after much research... that the tunic buttons on the AH Luftwaffe uniforms are exactly 1.35 mm smaller than they really were during WW2.
Undermodeled again!
Something MUST be done.
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Heh. I didn't say I was quitting AH - just the O-club. And I have. ;)
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I've seen pictures and diagrams of many Ju-87-D3 and up with sirens. At least they were labeled that way, and they looked like D models to me (The D and B model actually look different, so that parts pretty easy to tell, whats tough is distinguishing between D models). The pictures could have been mislabeled, I don't know. I really don't care to much about the siren, I guess I'm in the minority on that.
SW- The 109E was fitted for an engine mounted 20mm MG/FF firing through the spinner, but I don't think any were actually made that way. Actually, Galland may have had his modified, I know he had a couple 109s modified as 'one-offs' with more firepower than the standard ones. As far as I know, the supercharger intake was on the side of the nose, not through the spinner.
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Maybe it wasn't the supercharger intake, but I've read elsewhere it was some form of air intake...
Then again, the agreeance between sources of what it is indeed varies.
I've read that it was for a 20mm MGFF but since they proved to be unreliable and heavy maintence in test trials none were ever fitted.
With the 109E7 they used a closed spinner (no hole), so I guess it was for the intent of adding a 20mm MGFF, but I don't believe any where actually fitted... except for a few aces probably (Galland had a special 109F2 as well, so anything's possible with his aircraft)
-SW
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Hi folks. This has been an interesting thread to read from the standpoint of an airplane and AH noob. From what I gather, some had sirens and some didn't. Personally, I'd love to see a dive siren for the stuka even if I won't fly it much, because I think it would add to the enjoyment of many who do.
Also, would anyone mind identifying the dive brakes and siren in some of these pictures? I have no clue what they look like. :)
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the thing cylinder shape with a flat straight object at the end of it in the red circle in this picture is the siren.
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The dive brakes are somewhat difficult to see, but they are circled in red.
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Bf109E3 had provisions to mount an engine cannon and some were initially fitted with them, but there were jamming and overheating problems which led to them being removed, the spinner was left with its hole for the gun though. Then E4, and E7 introduced the capped spinner which sealed off the blast tube as they gave up on the cannon for the time being.
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The b had a much larger oil cooler look at the "chin" of those d models imagine it bigger in a b. B were in use up to 42 when the dora began production.
See sw pick to see the dive flaps then look up in one my post theres a colored pic of a stuka look under the wing you dont see dive flaps.
In SWs other pick that prop on the gear spun the siren. Looks at tilts pick where the small prop and look up on the wing edge thats where the sound came from.
From what I gather lotsa of later model Doras were refurbished d1 d2 and d3s etc. Early production versions of the d5 and possibly the d3 used early variant frames and wings. Also some early variants were retrofitted to upgrade them to a later variant.
Like everything lw in the later years they re used everything.
Also some picks are mis labeled. So we may never know whats correct but it plausible that there were d3s with sirens and as shown there were deffeinately d5s with dive flaps.
As for the emil Gruen is correct.
However HT dont waste time redoing the stuka just get the flak 18s done for the g1 please :)
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im supirzed they didnt give us the dive siren,,,maybe it was a pain to put a dive sound in for the stuka,,,im not sure,,but im happy to have it here anyways:)
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Thanks for the highlighting, wulfe.
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fyi from the pics over at il2 seem oleg is modelling the d3 with a siren......
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The D-5 had a larger wingspan than the D-3 - the tip was more pointed.
The D-5 had 20mm wing guns, the D-3 had 7.92mm MG17s.
The early production D-3s had the siren, laters did not.
Early D-3s had a shroud over the first exhaust stack, laters did not.
Early D-3s had a non-skid wing walk, laters had metal strips.
The coolant radiator under the nose was moved back on the Ds and lost the multiple flaps of the Bs. (Woton, not only just an oil cooler;))
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Here is my Idea,
Why not make the Dive Siren an option in the Hanger.
Use it if you want to, or if your looking for realism dont.
Id really love to have the siren, Just think of being on the ground when a full flight of Stukas come diving in, the sirens wailing would be the the S*T
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well the chin radiator was positioned underneath the wings in the D and not clearly visible in those pics. You can clearly see the oil cooler though :)
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Under the nose was the coolant radiator, flanked by an oil cooler, as well as the 2 coolant radiators under the wings.
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"We dont need no stinkin siren
this is all we need "
Wotan,
I know someone has already agreed with you on this, but I'm doing it too. When I first flew the Stuka online I was looking for the 37mm option as I thought they'd offer it for sure. It would difinately be an armour killer from above.
Stony
:D
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Go to the Sounds BB and you can download Stuka sounds......WITH SIREN!! Yep, comes in at 300 mph, pitch remains constant and fades in nicely.
I've put up some tac noted based on actual Stuka tactics on a couple of BBs if anyones interested.
Does anyone know if a Stuka Sqn is going to be formed?