Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: MWHUN on December 17, 2002, 12:57:54 PM
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Okay let me preface this by saying I don’t know much about the stuka except it was a slow ground attack/dive bomber used in close support with panzer commanders.
Also I have always thought that a stuka could come in a very steep dive and the pilot would/could actually pass out as an “automated” system pulled them out of the dive-bomb run afterwards.
I took up a stuka last night climbed to 12k with my giant bomb and got to an enemy airfield—I figured I drop on a bomber hanger as I had heard it pops with one of those 1800kg bombs.
Well I cut throttle and begin a slow roll in on top of the hanger-deploy my dive flaps-light comes on in cockpit for dive flaps but that is it… I hear no sound to indicate my flaps are moving nor does she feel any different. Perhaps I’m too slow so I go full throttle—Nothing! I accelerate towards the target-I panic switch off dive flaps drop ordinance and blow up buff hanger, ammo and a couple of fuel with that bad boy.:D (WOW) I manage to pull out but it was close…
But my question is what went wrong with my dive attack—should I have felt something? AM I incorrectly informed about how a stuka should pull me out of a dive? Was I too slow-too fast, etc?:confused:
Feedback appreciated.
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Going to full throttle during a steep dive was not a good move. Also, there is nothing in the release description for 1.11 mentioning an autopilot pullout, so it probably isn't modeled. Good job on the targets, though. :)
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The Ju88 also had an automatic dive-pullout mechanism - I have never seen it modelled (for Ju87 or Ju88) in any sim yet.
OK, Ju87s and dive-bombing. The idea of dive-bombing is to go down SLOWLY so that you have maximum time to get lined up on target accurately, and also to ensure that you don't break the plane and do pull out of the dive OK. When dive-bomnbing your engine should be idling (at very low throttle) not at maximum!
The automatic pull-out gizmo was a kind of fail-safe. Attacks would go in from a known altitude above target. In theory, a good pilot would follow the correct method perfectly and pull out in time. In practice, sometimes pilots misjudged and smashed into the ground, if they were trying too hard to get as low as possible at the point of drop. To help prevent this, they developed the automatic device, linked to the altimeter. It want there because the pilots might black out, but because they might misjudge their altitude. Once engaged, the autopilot would indeed pull the plane out of the dive at the right altitude, whether the pilot was conscious or not. However, I believe the autopilot could be manually overriden by the pilot.
The dive brakes (not flaps) on planes are often not the same as the flaps (there are a few exceptions where normal flaps double as part of the dive brake system, like on the SBD). Look at the Ju88 for an example - the dive-brakes are those grille-like things that drop down under the wings. The main give-away as to whether dive brakes are deployed or not are the indicator light on the dashboard for them and the fact that your speed isn't increasing out of control.
Hope that helps!
Esme
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ju87-b2 in il2 has the auto mechanism its great escept in il2 theres no pickling of bombs.
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Going to full throttle was indeed silly, but despite other posts on the board, there IS an automatic pullout (of sorts).
If you hit x after dropping your bomb, your plane will pull up much harder then if you just pull back on the stick. The stuka should have super strong wings because of the standard flight profile, so it should survive this (but I haven't tried it yet).
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As far as I can tell, the dive flaps, which should limit terminal velocity, don't. So, be sure to monitor your speed carefully when diving.
Funny thing about that 1800 kilo bomb, I dropped one about 5-6 boat lengths from a PT and killed it. Watched another guy drop one on a VH and kill 3 GVs about 50 yards away. And yes, only one is required to kill any hanger, and a direct hit is not required, just get it close.
Tonight is squad night for my squadron. We are planning a squad strength Stuka raid. There will be nothing left after a single pass. This same size raid (20+) would wipe out a fleet in two minutes.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
As far as I can tell, the dive flaps, which should limit terminal velocity, don't. So, be sure to monitor your speed carefully when diving.
Exactly—this is why I eventually throttled up, thinking maybe a stuka needed speed or something.
When full throttle down and dive flaps/breaks deployed she was still accelerating and I felt no benefit/function from the dive flap deployment. I figured those crazy Germans went in full speed to avoid ground fire and perhaps they were somehow speed sensitive.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that on an SBD there is no mistaking when you have the dive flaps/breaks deployed. Last night on the stuka I felt non-of the benefits of it.
P.S you better have a good fighter cap for that slow stuka raid tonight
:D
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Originally posted by Widewing
This same size raid (20+) would wipe out a fleet in two minutes.
My regards,
Widewing
I was wondering how long before someone realised this :) Except I was thinking you didn't need nearly so many.
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I was testing that beast bomb offline, and the shock wave blasted me to nothing a good distance from the explosion.
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it only takes 2500 lbs to kill a hanger. Ht mentioned in the original thread about the axis bombs that he would like to up the hanger hardness to 3k. It said 3 k on the help pages but it was wrong. I dunno if he upped the hardness to 3k as of yet.
So ofcourse 1800kgs will kill a hanger.
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Originally posted by MWHUN
P.S you better have a good fighter cap for that slow stuka raid tonight
:D
Well, I'll just escort 'em in my Hellcat, that ought to be enough! ;)
My regards,
Widewing
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I could be wrong but........
I was told that dive flaps dont slow you down, but rather re-direct the wind pressure preventing compression.
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Originally posted by fishstix128
I could be wrong but........
I was told that dive flaps dont slow you down, but rather re-direct the wind pressure preventing compression.
Dive flaps on dive bombers are there to provide drag, thus limiting the maximum speed. I seem to recall that a typical Stuka, with dive flaps extended, had a maximum (terminal) speed of around 250 mph. These are required due to the duration of the dive, often extending to 10,000 ft. or greater.
My regards,
Widewing
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besides.Stukas were SPOSED to go straight down..have seen countless films of them doing just that (well...alMOST straight down, anyhow)
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"I was told that dive flaps dont slow you down, but rather re-direct the wind pressure preventing compression."
You are both right AND wrong, depending on which airplane you're talking about. There are two different types of "dive devices" airplanes used, which served different purposes.
DIVE FLAPS were used to re-route the airflow over a wing and prevent the onset of compression in high speed dives. Examples of planes equipped with dive flaps are the P-38 and P-47D-30. Dive flaps will NOT make much of a difference in airspeed or acceleration and are basically useless at low speed.
DIVE BRAKES were used to slow the plane's acceleration and top speed in a dive, to allow more time for aiming in a dive-bombing attack (or in more modern cases to make landing easier). Dive brakes were most often carried by, you guessed it, dive bombers like the SBD and Ju-87 Stuka. These SHOULD make a noticable difference in dive acceleration and top speed when deployed.
The confusion between the two arises in AH because the same comtrol is used to deploy both types of devices.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by Widewing
Dive flaps on dive bombers are there to provide drag, thus limiting the maximum speed. I seem to recall that a typical Stuka, with dive flaps extended, had a maximum (terminal) speed of around 250 mph. These are required due to the duration of the dive, often extending to 10,000 ft. or greater.
I once had a document that dealt with dive characteristics of the Ju 87 and Ju 88 but here I just used some testimony from Eric Brown's test flight. He stated a max dive speed of 387 which it crept up to in his test dive. Of course, he didn't have an additional 4000 lbs strapped to the plane which would change that a great deal.
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According to Richard Townshend Bickers' excellent book, "The Battle of Britain", the Stuka began its dive from 15,000 ft./4,000 m. The dive angle was 80 degrees, and the maximum speed attained was 350 knts. The plane pulled out automatically at 4,000 ft. and the bomb was dropped.
MRPLUTO VMF-323 ~Death Rattlers~ MAG-33
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I guess the whiners that predicted "no real use" for the Stuka in the MA can eat their own words now. ;)
Eric Brown also mentioned in his testflight that the Stuka was a "true" 90 degree dive bomber. He rode it down vertical and he said that it didn't have that "runway" feeling he got in the other DB's he'd flown.
Anyways ... the Stuka will never see as much action as the fighters in the MA (duh), but it may not be uncommon to hear "WARNING! HIGH STUKAS COMMING DOWN NOW!!!" screamed over VOX. :D