Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: rickod on December 17, 2002, 03:12:11 PM
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This is what happens when a Stuka drops its big load
P.S. I survived it can this 1800kg bomb be under modelled
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Seriously doubt even a Tiger would handle a hit from a 1800kg that close, I've heard it can take alot of bomb hits before dying in AH.
What happens if you hit it spot on??
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You need to understand how explosive force dissipates in atmosphere.
You are 'in effect' attacking armor plate with a 'shock wave'. If the power of that 'shock wave' isn't enough to cause the plate to fail...it (the plate) doesn't really care.
If you want to outright 'kill' a Pz VIE with a bomb - hit it directly with the bomb.
The MA is learning why MBT kills reported by attack pilots in WW2 were almost always (honestly) overclaimed to a great degree.
If that bomb hit behind the Pz VIE, only 15' away, it probably would destroy the exhaust system components on the outside of the Pz VIE, and even start a small fire in the engine compartment.
The crew would hit the fire extinguishers and bail out - for 4 or 5 minutes. They'd then get back in the Pz VIE and either keep fighting or head back for repairs.
From the pilot's point of view: "Enemy tank started spewing smoke and crew bailed out".
This happened, again and again, in real life with the more sturdy MBTs in the war (mainly Pz VIE, Pz VIB, Pz V, Churchill VII, IS-2) unless they were hit by something that cleanly penetrated them.
AARs from German Pz units from '43 on are full or reports like the hypothetical one I typed above.
The bottom line is this - it was very rare for an MBT like a Pz VIE to ever 'explode'. The majority of the later German MBTs were lost when they were abandonded by the crew and could not be recovered. There wasn't alot around that could cause them to undergo a 'deathstar' like explosion - the main cause for such destruction would be fire getting to the stowed ammunition, which didn't happen 'instantly' very often as German ammunition stowage was fairly 'secure'.
Mike/wulfie
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yet tigers still expolde when bumping into a palm tree...
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Seriously doubt even a Tiger would handle a hit from a 1800kg that close, I've heard it can take alot of bomb hits before dying in AH.
What happens if you hit it spot on??
I don't know about "alot" of bomb hits ... was in a Tiger last night ... heard the "whistle of death" and poof ... was back in the tower.
Don't know what dropped on me, if it was a direct hit, or how many were dropped, but it surely is not impervious to bombs as you might think.
A squaddie rolled one on a base last nigth and said the ack bounced of him like spitballs.
Only time will tell how rugged this machine will be when it comes to bomb damage and when it comes face-to-face with an ostwind or a panzer.
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I just killed two with an M8 :D
It also seems that tracked engines now have a better grip on the ground.
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Originally posted by TPIguy
yet tigers still expolde when bumping into a palm tree...
ROFL
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The Tiger might not be damaged too much from the blast but I doubt the crew would survive the pressure wave of a 1800kg bomb going off 10m away.
-Amboss
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The Tiger not damaged from a 1800 KG ~ 4000lb's TNT ????????
Come on. Even a Tiger Tank will never survive it.
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The whole bomb's mass is 1800 Kg. There is less explosives than that as the casing has a mass too.
// fats
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I don't know about "alot" of bomb hits ... was in a Tiger last night ... heard the "whistle of death" and poof ... was back in the tower.
Thanks :) I was a bit worried there for a while, I haven't got the chance to try it yet as I am still waiting for my computer to arrive!
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In my experience, direct hits by heavy ordinance are needed to kill a Tiger outright .
Although I haven't had too much experience with them, a near miss, although not necessarily deadly, should have a fairly good chance of knocking off the tank treads.
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Nearby detonations might not destroy a tank, but I've seen the pictures of Tigers and Panthers tossed on their backs like toys due to bombs landing close by. The pictures were taken after D-Day, and were the result of the heavy air raids performed by the Lancs of the RAF (along with 8th Air Force). I believe they used 1000 lb bombs.
I haven't played v1.11 yet, but it sounds like a good balance has been struck.
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Ya I had an A20 drop a 500 pounder on me sent me back to the tower.
Quirious thing is look at the Wingman parked next to the Tiger, he is very close as well I wounder why Stuka boy dident kget kill shottered.
Who was leadpipe the guy in the Tiger?
And if you did drop the 1,800 KG bomb(on the Tiger in the pick) what did you get the Citty building and the Kill with?
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Lol and I lost a Tiger when I ran over a dead ack position. That just isnt right.
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Originally posted by Dowding (Work)
Nearby detonations might not destroy a tank, but I've seen the pictures of Tigers and Panthers tossed on their backs like toys due to bombs landing close by. The pictures were taken after D-Day, and were the result of the heavy air raids performed by the Lancs of the RAF (along with 8th Air Force). I believe they used 1000 lb bombs.
I haven't played v1.11 yet, but it sounds like a good balance has been struck.
Agreed 1800kg SC bomb that close should invert a Tiger after all it would invert a house..............
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One book I have has a story about how Tiger went airborne after near hit by a bomb and IIRC it took 3 hours to dig a cave under the tank so 3 still living tankers could crawl out from their tank.
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Originally posted by Staga
One book I have has a story about how Tiger went airborne after near hit by a bomb and IIRC it took 3 hours to dig a cave under the tank so 3 still living tankers could crawl out from their tank.
there's a good point... even if the tank survives the explosion, and the crew survives the shock wave, what's keeping the tank from getting flipped or rolling into the crater?
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Originally posted by TPIguy
yet tigers still expolde when bumping into a palm tree...
LOL
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Originally posted by Preon1
there's a good point... even if the tank survives the explosion, and the crew survives the shock wave, what's keeping the tank from getting flipped or rolling into the crater?
Crater? What is it? :D Where can I find one in AH? :D
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Originally posted by Saintaw
I just killed two with an M8 :D
YOU DID NOT.... LIAR LIAR LIAR. BAN HIM!!
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OTOH, I think it's a good gameplay concession to make them a little bit less vulnerable to near misses. What would be the point of taking one if they could be hit by some half-arsed, off-target bomb drop? No-one would ever use one.
Besides, if you can't get a bomb on target in AH then there's no hope for you. ;) It becomes easy with practise, even with moving targets.
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My team had an airfield that was on the receiving end of two spawn points - from airfields held by each of the other teams. A 3-way GV battle ensued, and since I was trying to defend I decided to roll a Tiger for the first time.
I successfully got across the open field and into the town. As I passed through the town to engage enemy armour on the other side of the buildings, I rolled across the blown-out wall of a house and exploded. Back to the tower.
Frustrated at the gaminess of that loss, I kicked through the gears and turned to exit the hangar, brushed the edge with my tracks and exploded. Back to the tower.
Calming myself, I carefully exited the hangar, worked my way across the open plain, and stayed well clear of the town while hugging the edge of a mountain. As I came upon the ridgeline I heard the sound of an enemy tank approaching. I stopped my tank and shut off my engine, but the enemy tank got off a shot before I could and hit me, then I fired and hit him, then he fired and hit me and I exploded. Back to the tower.
One last try. I got out of the hangar, rolled across the plain, was on my way to the town..."UDP session lost, try TCP/IP".
After the crash to desktop, I logged back in and drove the standard-issue Panzer for the rest of the night. I participated in the capture of a port, but as I went to "land the points" in the town, I lost my UDP session again.
One thing I noticed is that the front quarter of the Panzer is now impervious to the autoflak at the field, which is a nice change from the way it used to be where the autoflak would kill a Panzer with 2 or 3 strikes. I'm glad to see that fixed.
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Originally posted by rickod
This is what happens when a Stuka drops its big load
P.S. I survived it can this 1800kg bomb be under modelled
I don't understand. Looking at your picture, it doesn't look like you "survived" at all, you are smoking and your guns are damaged.
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Originally posted by Saintaw
I just killed two with an M8 :D
It also seems that tracked engines now have a better grip on the ground.
I got one, but it took every bullet I had - and at that all i did was damage him so bad he couldn't move anymore. Still had to run from his gun (which turns to slow to very easily target a moving M8)
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the city building was whacke by somone else
leadpipe was just sitting close by he had no effects from bomb and I survived my tank didnt but i did
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i just lost my first tiger to A ROCK !!!after several succesful sorties :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by rickod
the city building was whacke by somone else
leadpipe was just sitting close by he had no effects from bomb and I survived my tank didnt but i did
Now that I look at that again, how did you manage to get a kill on your wingman there? (he seems OK still?) You get the message for someone elses kills? I am more confused than ever now :)
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Looks like Rickod is in the TA. Weapon leathality is reduced way down and killshooter is off.
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the bleeding hull mg is still working by the looks of it!!
btw, this looks like a h2h arena, you sure the host wasn't monkeying around with the settings?
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A maverick missile with the "small" 150ish lb warhead pooks a small hole in a T-72 and vaporizes everything inside. A maverick with the "large" 300 lb warhead may knock the turret off of a T-72. A 500lb bomb direct hit, even one that doesn't fuze properly, will typically blow a T-72 turret 100 ft away from the body and may also flip the body upside down. A 2000lb bomb direct hit tends to leave very little that is recognizable as a tank.
Near misses may cause a functional kill and the shock/blast may kill or disable the crew, but it takes a rather close "miss" to kill a modern tank with even a 2000lb bomb. If just about any bomb hits it though, even a concrete-filled training bomb, it's toast. I have no idea how that translates to WWII tanks but I thought you guys might find it interesting :)
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If Rod367th is maning the man ack best believe he will detroy your tiger at any angle. I died to man ack 3 times last night..:(
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Originally posted by jamusta
If Rod367th is maning the man ack best believe he will detroy your tiger at any angle. I died to man ack 3 times last night..:(
If you are stupid enough to let someone fire 200+ rounds at you from a manned ack (I saw the conversation on chan 1) you deserve to lose your tiger. Tanks can kill manned acks with absurd ease.
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Now why is it that I compliment someone for being a great shot..he was hitting me from a very long distance....some idiot has to insult my intelligence...
Now ask yourself if I were in your face would you call me stupid.
It amazes me how hardcore poeple can be over the net
I refuse to believe that 37mm he round can kill tiger at more than 2k....
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agree Jamusta
A 37mm HE round would not kill a Tiger, 100 HE rounds should do nothing more than annoy the crew or maybe disable external stuff like antennas and tracks. If you hit a thick metal plate with your fist it would not buckle it, and neither would a 100 hits.
If HTC cant fix the "rocks killes panzers" thing, they should make em look like mines, not rocks
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well, for one thing, most of the time you don't know if your being shot at, as you can't see his tracers, although he can see them
i wish ht would do something about it
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this pick was done in h2h the only setting thats not default is the external view of vehicles so i could get a screeny for yas
and i had killed leadpipe a second before i reupped and had the ju87 come after me
all settings were default so i believe the bomb dropped was also at full strength
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Originally posted by jamusta
Now why is it that I compliment someone for being a great shot..he was hitting me from a very long distance....some idiot has to insult my intelligence...
Now ask yourself if I were in your face would you call me stupid.
It amazes me how hardcore poeple can be over the net
I refuse to believe that 37mm he round can kill tiger at more than 2k....
What I was saying was that manned acks are very easy to hit tanks with, I do it all the time, even from long range. The only thing is, when I'm in them the tank I'm firing on usually starts firing back and I'm back in the tower before I can land enough hits to damage the tank. I know the first thing I do when in visual range of a base is take out the acks, including the manned ones. You can zoom in a lot more with a tank gun sight than you can with a manned ack so theoretically you should never be within effective range of a manned gun.
As I said, it is very easy to hit with a manned ack and if you are going to sit there and let someone hit you over 100 times without taking out the acks then you are really acting stupidly (PS I'd say this to you in person too. If you think that getting some criticism and/or advice about how you play a game is "hardcore" then I suggest you check your perspective). I'm not saying you are of diminished mental capacity, just saying you're using stupid tactics.
Oh and I believe that 37mm shouldn't be able to even hurt a tiger tank, let alone kill one. HTC removed the AP component from the ostwind ammo, maybe they should do the same for field guns, unless they are AT guns of course...
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Originally posted by TPIguy
yet tigers still expolde when bumping into a palm tree...
That is the most rediculous thing I've ever seen in a game. Main battle tanks don't look for paths in the woods, they make them.
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I took out a Tiger with an 1800kg bomb from my JU-87 last night. 1 hit, boom! I also finished a Tiger off with two 250's from an N1K, although I only got an assist so I don't know what else had been done it. I unloaded my N1K's entire ammo load into another Tiger and it didn't seem fazed. Moral to the story? Those Tigers are tough!
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BlueMako it seems it doesn't take more than maybe 10 rounds from MAN ack to kill a Tiger, we were testing it in h2h with MA settings, on the Front Quarter armor plating. And tigers were dispatched fairly easy. Maybe there is a hole in the armor or something. We're going to be doing more extensive testing with videos to show for HTC, if we find anything.
-BlckMgk
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Why not? 100 x 37mm HE rounds have tremendous kinetic energy, the plate would become very stressed, hot, etc.
Originally posted by Nilsen10
agree Jamusta
A 37mm HE round would not kill a Tiger, 100 HE rounds should do nothing more than annoy the crew or maybe disable external stuff like antennas and tracks. If you hit a thick metal plate with your fist it would not buckle it, and neither would a 100 hits.
If HTC cant fix the "rocks killes panzers" thing, they should make em look like mines, not rocks
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Well I wasnt quit sure how mant times he shot at me but he said 200x and since he was the one shooting and have to believe him. If I would have seen or heard him shooting at me i dont think I would have stuck around. By the time I did see him zoomed in to aim for a shot got range and bam died...No damage no nothing.
If saying I was stupid was critism then you need to work on it. And if you insist that you would call me stupid to my face then you also need to work on your foolishness because you dont know me just like I dont know you. You just might catch a beat down over nothing.....
With that said I'll let you have the last words.. Cus Im done with you.
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Originally posted by jamusta
Well I wasnt quit sure how mant times he shot at me but he said 200x and since he was the one shooting and have to believe him. If I would have seen or heard him shooting at me i dont think I would have stuck around. By the time I did see him zoomed in to aim for a shot got range and bam died...No damage no nothing.
So you didn't hear any pings? GVs don't hear pings from manned acks? I apologise then, if you didn't hear any hits then it's easy to see why you'd just sit there.
You just might catch a beat down over nothing.....
Kinda says more about your attitude then mine... ;)
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Originally posted by Blue Mako
So you didn't hear any pings? GVs don't hear pings from manned acks? I apologise then, if you didn't hear any hits then it's easy to see why you'd just sit there.
I hear pings when manable acks hit me, I think you are mistaken about not hearing it.
Booky
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The main trouble is not being able to see the tracers...as a noob driving a panzer (and I'm still a noob) I got nailed repeatedly by someone on a flak gun. Not being able to see the tracer, I had no idea where the shots were coming from and didn't realise for a few deaths and after having it explained to me that it was probably manned acks, I assumed there was a tank somewhere that I just couldn't see.
If you can see ack tracers from planes, why can't you see them from GV's?
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Originally posted by Booky
Originally posted by Blue Mako
I hear pings when manable acks hit me, I think you are mistaken about not hearing it.
I was just going on what jamusta said. I never get close enough to live mannable ack guns to hear pings in a gv, I always kill them first...
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Vulcan why not? Well there was more than one Tiger I that came back from battle with well over 200 hits from every Soviet weapon from the 14.5mm AT rifle to 76mm of T34 and was not destroyed. So that pretty much rules out melting the armor plate or as you said stressing it with heat.
Many Russian KV-1 and KV-2 also had similar experiences vs German 37mm AP and 75mm HE in 1941.
Guys you are just inventing bizzare excuses (yet again) for flawed armor programing (yet again) , we should simply ask that it be fixed.
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Originally posted by eagl
A maverick missile with the "small" 150ish lb warhead pooks a small hole in a T-72 and vaporizes everything inside. A maverick with the "large" 300 lb warhead may knock the turret off of a T-72. A 500lb bomb direct hit, even one that doesn't fuze properly, will typically blow a T-72 turret 100 ft away from the body and may also flip the body upside down. A 2000lb bomb direct hit tends to leave very little that is recognizable as a tank.
Near misses may cause a functional kill and the shock/blast may kill or disable the crew, but it takes a rather close "miss" to kill a modern tank with even a 2000lb bomb. If just about any bomb hits it though, even a concrete-filled training bomb, it's toast. I have no idea how that translates to WWII tanks but I thought you guys might find it interesting :)
I think thats an exact parable for what whould happen to a medium or better tank. They were killed by hitting them with bombs..not by missing them. they were killed by top attacks only by very heavy(37mm) cannon attacks. Or vary rarley by rockets.
The game as it is now is very much like killing tanks would have been from the air..except they have no place to hide.
Rudel says he hit directly infront/under t34s with bombs befor he got his 37mm...He says he would flip them over that way I believe..
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To answer your question I did here 3 pings but I was aways out and didnt expect it to be manned ack. I was busy trying to find another tank. I have been wondering if manned ack is more lethal than unmanned ack? I have driven on a field and have taken numerous hits from ack in a pnzr or ostie. My turret may be disabled but I was always able to take out the ack unless track was hit.
But like i said I was just complimenting him on great shooting. We laughed and I kept trying to get close to him. It was fun and I will destroy him the next time we meet.
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You don't always hear pings when you get hit by a manned ack.
I'm not sure why to be honest with you, but I've been killed at extreme ranges (3,500+ yards) by manned ack in a Panzer IV.. I heard 1 ping then I was in the tower. After asking the gentleman about a hundred times how he managed to kill me with a manned ack, he said he must have hit me 200 time.. I never heard a ping until the one that sent me to the tower.
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The other night I was in a panzer shooting at a tiger...to my surprise the 75mm ap round bounced off every time...:rolleyes: they say the tiger can be killed
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A panzr can kill a Tiger done it lots of times. It takes a while cus most shot will simply bounce off into the air. Always try to get side or rear shot and always aim for turret first. I never fire at a tiger first hoping he doesnt see me so i can close gap. Hopefully I can get about 2k in range then open fire. If u miss chances are u will die.
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I've managed to sneak up behind tigers in a panzer lots of times in my gv combat arena, I'll see if i have a film i can dig up
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side shot from the old tank on tiger at close range = tiger dead, almost always one shot.
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Ive killed plentie of tigers...just not with a panzer, ive killed with hurri 2c's and d's and ju87s but not easily
btw...maxtor, how many times have you been able to get right next to a tiger in the MA?
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Is it just me, or does the tigers turret seems a little weak?
Everytime i hit a tiger its turret goes poof first
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I get close by simply allowing them to engage friendlies and flanking or by using terrain to my advantage. To go H2H with tiger while in a pnzr is suicide. I also wait in ambush.
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In Panzer elite the rear of most tanks were the most vulnerable. Woudlnt this be the same in AH? Not much tank experience in AH.
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jamusta, that tactic of letting your team mates get shot is called chumming. its not a very practical way to kill them and looses the whole sense of teamwork.
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Originally posted by bomber6969
Ive killed plentie of tigers...just not with a panzer, ive killed with hurri 2c's and d's and ju87s but not easily
btw...maxtor, how many times have you been able to get right next to a tiger in the MA?
I think every tiger I killed is with a panzer - I'm too lazy to check.
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oops forgot the ones i got with M8
wasnt trying to be smart,I actually got several more with M8 ( as in I disabled them) But yeah I get close to tigers :)
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Originally posted by bomber6969
jamusta, that tactic of letting your team mates get shot is called chumming. its not a very practical way to kill them and looses the whole sense of teamwork.
I disable tigers often on the open range, I know I won't get "kill", I know I cant nhuke em in an M8, but I know who got em. :)
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ive had m8's take my tracks off my tiger...but it was when i was turning around back to base to land my kills, then i was surrounded by 9 panzers, 1 m8, and 2 tigers shooting all they had at me...i lost
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The guys that been had know it :)me, I even have credit for some. More than a few will tell ya, you best watch your six out there in the open country.
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Originally posted by jamusta
A panzr can kill a Tiger done it lots of times. It takes a while cus most shot will simply bounce off into the air. Always try to get side or rear shot and always aim for turret first. I never fire at a tiger first hoping he doesnt see me so i can close gap. Hopefully I can get about 2k in range then open fire. If u miss chances are u will die.
Actually, you're better off with a range about 2800-3200 for taking out tigers with a PzKpfw IV; at the longer ranges you do lose some armor penetration from KE loss, but the extra range has your round dropping in more, so you've got a better chance of hitting the thinner top armor.
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Its not chumming and it is teamwork. Being that I was in an Armored Calvary Regiment which were the oposing forces for all U.S. Army armored units I have seen different styles to armored battles. I find the the russian tactic of swarming your enemies flank works best.
During battles with superior tanks, 'we used simulated T-72's against M1A1's in the worlds largest game of laser tag' , when first contact is made by our advance units they would engage. the enemy would then stop engage and become fixated on whats in front of them. All the while our main body would flank come over the hills and completely destroy the enemy.
Did this for 4 years 2 weeks a month and only recall losing once.