Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: SlapShot on December 17, 2002, 03:25:45 PM
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I think that its major role, after the newness wears off, will be for the most part, used for defensive purposes on most maps.
If one spawns a Tiger for offensive purposes, you just might as well kiss those 50 perk points goodbye. Once spawned, chances of getting a safe landing are slim to none. In a defensive roll, you can be aggressive, and if hurt, chances are you will be able to get back to your field to land/park it safely.
I know that when an inbound GV attack is coming, the first GV I will be rolling out of the hanger will be the Tiger ... on the other hand .. If I am involved in an offensive attack, I will not be bringing the Tiger out of the hanger.
Somehow, don't know the correct solution here, but a safe landing zone (not the enemy airfield) is needed for spawned vehicles. I always thought that this was needed, but didn't seem to be a pressing matter due to no perks were involved. Now there is a price to pay.
I know some will say ... "Hey, they are only GV perks !!!" ... true, but there still needs to be some balance and a fair chance to keep the perks.
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Disagree..
I rolled a tiger to A24 last night (all alone). I was engaged by no less than 2 JU87s, an IL2 and a formation of LANCs.
After I played cat and mouse with them for a little while (driving around trees and shooting back with my pintle MG) I managed three kills and then proceeded to level the town. After that, I exited next the map room and came back with an M16 and a squadie in an M3. We captured A24.
I wish I had filmed it all. It was grand.
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Originally posted by Midnight
After I played cat and mouse with them for a little while (driving around trees and shooting back with my pintle MG) I managed three kills and then proceeded to level the town. After that, I exited next the map room and came back with an M16 and a squadie in an M3. We captured A24.
I wish I had filmed it all. It was grand.
This type of sortie will be the exception. When people get used to what it takes to kill a Tiger they will be toast unless they have AAA cover.
We need a way to exit w/o loosing perks for GV's that remotely spawn. Just like you can RTB in a plane you should be able to RTB to your spawn point in a GV since that spawn point is a safe enough < unless a spawn point camper...er vulcher is there > position to spawn at.
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I think we may start seeing a lot of folks in Tigers bringing along a buddy with vehicle supplies for repairs. :)
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I agree Midnight ...
Notice I said "slim" and certain maps (like AKDESERT), chances will be greater to get that baby parked, but your sortie (nice work BTW), I believe, will not be the norm.
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I filmed my first sortie in a Tiger last night. I shot down 3 La7's with the commander's MG (well, 2 of the three crashed straffing me, but they all were smoking, haha), and blew up two Tiger's that had spawned at the base I just left after it was recaptured by the knights. Both tigers blew with one 88mm each, both front quarter shots.
I was strafed for 10 minutes straight, I bet I took 500 rounds, and had no damage, so it can be used offensively so long as no Jabo's show up. Like anyone else, if I see a Tiger while landing I'll instantly up a Jabo sortie and try and blast him. Good clean fun.
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All we need is for C-47's and/or M3's to be able to drop an "exit point" cargo that, once dropped, would allow friendly vehicles/chutes to exit safely in a given radius for some length of time (say 15 minutes). The graphic of the "exit point" could look like a tent with a flagpole or something like that.
J_A_B
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i would have not lost my tiger if some gun happy player didnt blow up the FH i was hiding in @ the enemy base :mad:
was gonna "land" but moved backwards to get outta the hangar and boom! :(
oh well i kinda chuckle now ... they killed EVERYTHING at said base... i mean EVERYTHING that can be shot lolololol
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Originally posted by J_A_B
All we need is for C-47's and/or M3's to be able to drop an "exit point" cargo that, once dropped, would allow friendly vehicles/chutes to exit safely in a given radius for some length of time (say 15 minutes). The graphic of the "exit point" could look like a tent with a flagpole or something like that.
J_A_B
J_A_B, bud, not to be rude, that just sounds too damn hokey Star Trekish... Just make the Spawn Point actually represent something in the future. i.e. Camp, or something along those llines. If you leave a base, you should have to return to a base of sorts.
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And allowing the vehicles to spawn in the middle of nowhere isn't "star trekish"?
It might not be strictly realistic, however the MA we have in AH is itself not strictly realistic. In Aces High, nobody wants to spend an hour or more driving a vehicle back to base and I can't blame them--people want excitement in a game, not boredom. Remember that first and formost, AH is a game that people play for fun, and driving that 50-perk tank back to base for an hour isn't a whole lot of fun.
Allowing a C-47 or M-3 to set up a "remote exit point" might not be strictly realistic, but it isn't totally implausible either....such a point could be thought of as a "forward command post" or some such thing. Regardless of what you call it, such a feature would be highly useful for improving the fun of those who enjoy driving the vehicles, with absolutely no down side to the opposing players (players can already ditch whenever they want so it wouldn't let people do anything they can't already do).
I would ammend my suggestion though in that it should have a minimum distance requirement from an enemy base, at least a mile.
J_A_B
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(read this post as an attempt at humour, because some of the suggestions in this thread sound like features from a futuristic battle sim)
If the C-47 can drop three pattern enhancers in a rough triangle, maybe exiting there will transport you back to the cargo deck, unless there's too much multiphasic interference causing instability in the pattern buffers.
We're talking about AH or Battlezone? Isn't there some other game where you can fly in little factories and spawn points, little glowing green/gunmetal platforms where you can refuel or exit safely? Want powerups too? :rolleyes:
Be careful what you ask for gentlemen (and ladies)... You might get it. I personally want the vortex from "The Final Countdown" to chase down and suck in any CV who's captain has driven the fleet off the map, but that's kind of extreme too :D
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I invite you to think of something better.
J_A_B
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I also don't care for the C47 idea (sorry J_A_B), but I think it would be nice if there were a spot near the spawn point where a spawned vehicle could exit / end a sortie successfully.
Ideally (and I don't know how hard this would be to do), it would be an area on the terrain that you could navigate to with the clipboard map. If it were something that was visible, I would think it would become a beacon for spawn campers.
SOB
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"If it were something that was visible, I would think it would become a beacon for spawn campers. "
Well this might be a good idea anyhow...the spawn camper wouldn't be much of a concern since people would be EXITING at said point, rather than entering there (presumably relatively few people would be trying to exit when there are enemies nearby).
Actually this sort of thing wouldn't be a whole lot different from my "player droppable exit point" idea except that it'd be a permanent feature of the terrain, which is arguably even better.
Another idea might be to simply count ANY exited vehicle as a normal "landing" PROVIDED there aren't any enemies within a certain specified distance...this would allow attackers to "land" their vehicles yet not permit them to do so in the middle of combat. Perhaps a new button command could tell you if there are enemies within the necessary distances...or maybe just a "There are enemies nearby, do you wish to exit?" message. Defenders, of course, could still exit in the middle of combat simpl,y by heading over to their field and exiting normally.
J_A_B
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I was thinking that the exit point would be near the spawn point, but it certainly wouldn't have to be. On the exiting successfully anywhere idea, I like that too - maybe once you recieve any damage, you would only be allowed to ditch/be captured.
SOB
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"I like that too - maybe once you recieve any damage, you would only be allowed to ditch/be captured. "
Or call out and wait for a repair :) That makes it even better, the repair feature is under-utilized
J_A_B
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I think ditch any time that you have no enemy within (x)k of you should be free..simple mechanic..make it 5k and see how that works..
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Originally posted by J_A_B
All we need is for C-47's and/or M3's to be able to drop an "exit point" cargo that, once dropped, would allow friendly vehicles/chutes to exit safely in a given radius for some length of time (say 15 minutes). The graphic of the "exit point" could look like a tent with a flagpole or something like that.
J_A_B
I would rather not be able to drop random "worm holes" about the terrain............... so we could be magic'd away.........
However if you could drive back to the nearest spawn point and actually find it then that seems reasonable............. a revetment maybe?
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I think just being able to exit at the spawn point without ditching would be an improvement. I blew perkies the other day by spawing to a remote point in a Tiger only to find there was nothing near and immediately ended mission..... and ditched wtihout ever moving.
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Saw many Tiger sorties with 20+ kills, someone had even 42 or 44 Kills - if you think Tiger isn't going to get PLENTY of use, you are mistaken.
Of the RTB option described above, I see none better than our present system. Doesn't mean our present system IS the best, just I not seen a better or less gamey idea - unless you want to do away with forward sapwn points all together (which I don't BTW).
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Originally posted by Flossy
I think just being able to exit at the spawn point without ditching would be an improvement. I blew perkies the other day by spawing to a remote point in a Tiger only to find there was nothing near and immediately ended mission..... and ditched wtihout ever moving.
The trouble with this is, damaged GV's at the remote spawn would then be able to RTB with no kill awarded. I think in this case the cures suggested could be worse than the percieved desease.
I suppose you could have continued with your mission and prepared for yourself a safe place to RTB, yes?
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Originally posted by J_A_B
All we need is for C-47's and/or M3's to be able to drop an "exit point" cargo that, once dropped, would allow friendly vehicles/chutes to exit safely in a given radius for some length of time (say 15 minutes). The graphic of the "exit point" could look like a tent with a flagpole or something like that.
J_A_B
A good idea, but I think a better one would be to simply represent the spawn point with several indestructable objects such as rocks to (a) provide some protection for vehicles just spawning, and (b) to delineate an area where remotely spawned players can safely land the Tiger. You would spawn from the point, do your business, and if you can't capture the town, then you can retreat back to the spawn point and save your perks.
Then again, maybe having the Tiger as a mostly defensive vehicle isn't such a bad idea either. It would certainly provide some defense against waves of enemy jabo base capture missions, assuming you can get out of the hangar before its dropped.
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The Tiger's damage model is somewhat flawed, I think.
I was able to withstand several jabo passes with bombs and rockets. No damage.
Then I faced a M3. It took more than 5 direct hits (it was not moving) before dying (straaange). I got it, so well, no big deal.
BUT, then I came across an Ostwind, and guess what... after some impacts, I began to lose a track, the main gun, the pintle gun... and after some time, the Tiger was no more.
Is that right???
Daniel
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there is a way to successfully land...once the base you raiding is taken just go to there vh right in the middle then tower out...it counts (from some experiments in the hth i came to this comclusion)
and i took out a tiger in one pass from a mossie (2 500 pounders and 8 rockets landing somewhere around it)
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Originally posted by Turbot
Saw many Tiger sorties with 20+ kills, someone had even 42 or 44 Kills - if you think Tiger isn't going to get PLENTY of use, you are mistaken.
Of the RTB option described above, I see none better than our present system. Doesn't mean our present system IS the best, just I not seen a better or less gamey idea - unless you want to do away with forward sapwn points all together (which I don't BTW).
I'll bet that those 40+ kills were most likely defensive kills and not offensive kills. They probably drove to the spawn point and had M3s running supplies. Launching an offensive attack does not land you directly next to the base VH so offensive attacks dont have the same luxury. They must drive thru B17s, Ju88s, F6Fs, P51s all with eggs trying to stop the march. That is why I believe that it will be very rare that an offensive attack will ever result in a 40+ kill sortie.
What is being asked for is simple ... give perked vehicles (now that we have one) an opportunity to land/park safely the same as perk planes.
All ideas proposed so far sound plausable. If we keep working/refining the ideas, maybe HTC will implement one of them or something similar. They do watch and listen to our ideas and if they are sound, they do implement them.
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Originally posted by vorticon
there is a way to successfully land...once the base you raiding is taken just go to there vh right in the middle then tower out...it counts (from some experiments in the hth i came to this comclusion)
and i took out a tiger in one pass from a mossie (2 500 pounders and 8 rockets landing somewhere around it)
Vort ... I think we all realize that you can land safely at the field you are attacking once it has been taken. Heck, you can land/park even before its taken ... if you get there.
If you take up a perk plane to capture or support the capture of a base and it just isn't gonna happen, what do you do ? You fly BACK to a friendly base and land that puppy !!!
Spawn a Tiger to a base and if things don't work out, where are you going to go to land/park it safely ??? Right .. unless you have a few HOURS to spare, you just lost your Tiger perks.
Thats the point ... :D
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Originally posted by SOB
I also don't care for the C47 idea (sorry J_A_B), but I think it would be nice if there were a spot near the spawn point where a spawned vehicle could exit / end a sortie successfully.
Ideally (and I don't know how hard this would be to do), it would be an area on the terrain that you could navigate to with the clipboard map. If it were something that was visible, I would think it would become a beacon for spawn campers.
SOB
I agree that we need a place to land GV perks. Nothing sucks worse than being in the middle of one of those grand fire fights with every type of armor driving around, 10+ scalps flying from the antenna and poof... someone pops the enemy VH. Now what is a GV to do?
SOB's idea of a structure reminded me of those "Reference point", psuedo VHs that are scattered on the maps (evidently convoys spawn from these). Could a similar structure be placed a couple of miles in back of the remote spawn point so if a GV wants to leave a fight, he actually has to retreat to this haven before exiting to preserve his kills. It wouldn't necessarily be on the maps, but it should be in visual range with max zoom.
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Originally posted by SOB
I would think it would become a beacon for spawn campers.
SOB
... and yes... the enemy "despawn" hanger is the first place I would park MY Tiger :D
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Originally posted by Turbot
The trouble with this is, damaged GV's at the remote spawn would then be able to RTB with no kill awarded. I think in this case the cures suggested could be worse than the percieved desease.
I think that having some kind of indicator at a spawn point -- a green flag on a post, for example, a single rectangular bitmap that's always drawn perpendicular to the viewer's LOS so it's always visible to them -- marking the spawn point, where you can exit and have it not be a ditch would be a good idea. If you set your FE up so that the flag is only drawn if the spawn point belongs to a field your country owns, that would eliminate giving people a permanent indicator of the location of the spawn point that they could camp at (instead, they'd have to drive to the area where the map indicates the spawn point, then wait for someone to pop up to show them where it was before they could camp).
However, in conjunction with this, I would also recommend that exiting a damaged vehicle anywhere but in a hangar (vehicle or aircraft) be counted as a kill for the player that did the most damage to that vehicle (but not a death for the driver of the exiting vehicle). Even though you survived to exit, someone did shoot you up to the point where you unassed the vehicle on the field, so they should get the kill. Or score it as 'damaged' and award it as half a kill -- but recognize it as some kind of victory by their attacker. One of my pet peeves about the way that GVs spawn/despawn is watching a tank or Ostie pop up next to a VH, dropping three rounds of AP into it and taking out a track, the turret, and the engine, then watch the turkey exit his vehicle and get a successful landing while I get nothing, even though his tank is Swiss cheese.
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You have to have a real team player to help you as dropping supplies either vehicle or base does nothing for the player dropping them other than hurt their bomber rank, if they are trying to maintain a rank. You get perk points for it but no score points towards rank.
Dropping supplies on the hq, bases, or vehicles knocks down you damage/sortie srather drastically and if you get shot down doing so you take a double whammy.
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if your not totally sure that this gv raid is gonna work out take a panzer instead...