Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: sax on March 21, 2001, 02:44:00 PM
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Lately the 13th Tas has been getting a lot of comments on our high aproach into a furball.
Things like "Here comes the 13th Tas
stratus sphere squad", or, by the time you guys drop in from up there you'll have forgotten why you came.
I used to think this was just friendly ribbing, or perhaps some jelousy of our wing tactics.
Now I,m starting to wonder if we aren't grabbing alt just a little to much.
Last nite I climbed to my usuall altitude, I swear I saw the Mir space station, and as God is my witness, I,m sure Voss was docked for re-fuel and re-arm.
In the future I will now no longer get pissed when some comment comes across the buffer regarding "How High" we fly.
Sax*****13th Tas*****
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Don't let it bug ya Sax...those who criticize us need to quit whinin. If they think we'll fly to please them, well, that's funny. I personally get a big kick out of those who feel the need to tell anyone how to fly, especially the 13th TAS.
First of all, I could care less what anyone thinks about how we chose to engage the enemy...secondly, as you well know, the objective is to kill the enemy without being killed. Now, when let's say 6 TAS members enter an enemy area and rtb with 25-30 kills with no losses, I consider that a good thing.
Those that don't are obviously the ones who are cryin in their milk, sittin in the tower, typin digs at us for the unfair or better yet the unmanly way in which we fly this sim.
You know that we fight under 10k the majority of the time, so why care what they say...just kill em and move on! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
In closing, to those who feel we don't fight the way you think we should, well, PISS ON YA! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Enough said!
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Ice
13thTAS
It's not the Big that kill the Small, but the Fast that kill the Slow!
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Fly your game guys...thats what it is all about. If that is what you enjoy who cares? But it does lend itself well to jibes so you gotta role with it...
Hows the air up in the dweebisphere?
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Well that thing about the "unmanly" 13th TAS just might be true (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
The 56th FG also prefers to come into a fight with an alt/E advantage. Of course we are generally in lead weight with wings P-47s and need everything we can get.
But ask any real fighter pilot and they'll tell you that altitude is life. It gives you options. Any dweeb that enters a furball from below just proves they aren't too smart. Maybe manly, but not too smart. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Don't let it get to ya. Well, except for maybe the manly thing (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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PakRat
63rd FS, 56th FG
"Zemke's Wolfpack"
(http://home.att.net/~ahpakrat/pakrat.jpg)
"Juggies, dance us back in history!"
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You should always strive to fight on the ground of your choosing, at the time of your choosing, and with the tactics of your choosing, and in the aircraft of your choice.
You can't always enter a fight with those advantages, but any time you can, you have no reason to apologize for it.
Regards,
Wab
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Hey Pongo...man it's cool and crisp...totally invigorating! Clears your senses and sharpens your aim. Also, the ride getting there allows you time to make a pot of joe or have a smoke (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Oh, btw....we liken our flying style to that of the two bulls on a hill top, one the Father, the other the Son. As they look down on a herd of females, the son says, "Hey Dad! Let's run down there and get one of them females"! The Dad replies, "Naw son, let's walk down there and have em all"!
That of course is the polite rendition of a very old tale, however, it conveys the attitude of the 13th TAS as we look down on all of those bandits! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Ice
13thTAS
It's not the Big that kill the Small, but the Fast that kill the Slow!
[This message has been edited by Ice (edited 03-21-2001).]
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Well I for one would prefer it if the 13th TAS would lower there operational ceiling by aboot (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) 5k to 8k. That way I could stop getting bounced by 5 p51's on my way to my operational alt of 37k (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
S! 13th you guys are flying right, they only get mad because you were smarter and grabbed more alt than they did...
Udie
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Originally posted by Ice:
Oh, btw....we liken our flying style to that of the two bulls on a hill top, one the Father, the other the Son. As they look down on a herd of females, the son says, "Hey Dad! Let's run down there and get one of them females"! The Dad replies, "Naw son, let's walk down there and have em all"!
That of course is the polite rendition of a very old tale, however, it coveys the attitude of the 13th TAS as we look down on all of those bandits! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
hehe...that explains a lot! 13th TAS, the deadly fairies of the AH skies (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Hey guys, I wasn,t complaining about the insults.
I was serious about seeing Voss.
Beemer sent over some new pipe tobacco for me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)I saw some other things to, but I don't want to share those with anybody.
Sax*****13th Tas*****
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Arghh I dont mind if guys fly high- But I hate that u bastids are such great teamworkers, cant barely ever get one of ur ponies 1v1. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Big <S> on your good wingman flying.
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Heh, there was this spit see? He kept grabbing after we killed him twice and I sidewalled him with four or five pings on his attempted HO. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) I kept it at 25k and waited for him to come down. When he did it was amazing to see a spit stay with me to buffet and straight through the ack! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) I had his six when he augered. Go figure.
No apologies. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
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Voss
13th TAS
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Heheheh, after many an insult, I managed to sucker a 13th TAS pilot to actually engage me 1v1.
At first, this friendly individual would set up a high six shot, I'd roll a little left while building speed. he'd pull up, I'd do the same. Same procedure for about four or five times.
Lots of insults and derogatory comments later (including a nice exchange like
<13THTAS>stop yer yapping, I fly like I want>
<StSanta>Muahahah, yah but yer never gonna get a shot at me this way>
He actually closed to within d1.0 for a shot. Since he dinnae saddle up, my trusty A5 could easily outmaneuver the P-51, since it was going a good bit slower.
Onto his six! Type in text buffer "now you DIE pony boy!"
Of course, this was just a second before I remembered I am flying the A5, not the D9.
One Brave Sir Robin later, after I'd desperately tried to run down this too fast pony, I saw something I haven't seen in a while; a 13th TAS locked in a fight, with no wingie to check his six, and slower and lower than me. So surprised was I that I almost forgot to fire as I engaged.
Was fun (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
I personally have no jealousy for the way the 13th fly. There are differences of philosophy in each squad. I for one am happy that it's a squad dedicated to flying planes from only one country.
But you WILL get a lot of comments from flying high in packs and disengaging when e states are nearing something that would mean that the enemy might possibly get a shot at ya. Now people know that you can fly from an advantage pretty well, and extend and because of the massive fuel capacity of the P-51, regrab and come back. What they know much less about is whether you're very good at co e, co alt fighting, or duking it out to the death of one of the engaged sides.
But who cares, right? A squad should fly in accordance to the temperaments and wishes of the members, not its targets (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). Being one of the latter more often than not, I know how frustrating it is to *finally* get those damned P-51's low and slow enough so that in just one more attack, I might get a snapshot on one, only to see them hit the pedal to the metal and leave me standing in a cloud of dust, wondering why my A5 won't do more than 310mph (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
9./JG 54 likes to go to fronts where there are few kniggits around. If there are few friendlies and many enemies, we try to go for an alt advantage. Of course, 9th also seem to love to stay for far too long, which in the end means "eeeeeeeeek, let's BUG the HELL outta here" on RW followed by "cannot, am locked" on rw, with a last comment of "ok, coming back hold on...shi<beep>, there are LOADS of hi enemies here".
I just wish I was as good a shot as you 13th TAS guy. The flying bit I am decent at, the shooting...miserable.
Drop in on 9./JG 54 any time, we'll be experimenting with a thing that might take pick one or two of ya off (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"You filthy piece of distended rectum! DIE allierte schweinhund!"
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 03-22-2001).]
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S!
Usually when seeing high Pony-D's our squad is getting on it's toes.It is 90% of the time 13th TAS.My wingie and I had a great fight against Baane and supposedly Voss,since he stayed higher and watched Baane attacking(master teaching apprentice? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)).But still managed to down other of these gents and my wingie same guy 2nd time a bit later when these silverish beasts appeared again (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) <S> to Your fighting style 13th TAS,U really fly the P51 as it should.
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DB603
3.Lentue
Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34/)
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StSanta:
But you WILL get a lot of comments from flying high in packs and disengaging when e states are nearing something that would mean that the enemy might possibly get a shot at ya. Now people know that you can fly from an advantage pretty well, and extend and because of the massive fuel capacity of the P-51, regrab and come back. What they know much less about is whether you're very good at co e, co alt fighting, or duking it out to the death of one of the engaged sides.
Well, I guess there's no pleasing anyone then. You described flying pretty good, but you obviously don't know the 13th. Generally, as a squad, we leave the area when we have 0k AGL or there are no enemies left. In pairs, or solo, the guys are just having fun. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Personally, the few times I have seen LW planes are when I am 0k and egressing, or I catch them higher but they dive to 0k. Goes both ways.
Mostly, I see La7's, P-51's, and Nikis.
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Voss
13th TAS
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Just one note guys.
It's not always a good idea to enter the furball with altitude. I tend not to come in high... but for a different reason. I will dive prior to icon range and turn my E into speed. I'm still coming in with a substantial E advantage (hey, I fly a Jug) but I hide it as speed. It is much more difficult for a bogey to gauge your E state based on speed than it is to judge it based on your altitude. If you combine speed with lag or off-angle approaches, you can control closure rate and make it very difficult for the enemy to get a good read on your energy state. This is why I try not to come into the furball high. I want to be near the top, but not the highest, and I'm gonna sneak in with lots of speed and blast the first sucker that under-estimates my Jug. Muhahaha. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/) for AH articles and training info!
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You're right Leph...it works well. We try to come in above the furball with at least 250IAS, preferably 300IAS.
I use the technique you described when I'm 1v1...gives ya some options eh? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I want to thank you guys for the compliments...the guys in the 13th have worked hard to get better fighting together and in general flying smarter. If you haven't tried this as a group, it is harder to do consistently than you might think...we still have alot of work to do on other skills.
Many of you are dangerous pilots...very skilled in areas that personally I'm weak in. I wish I could fly my 51 like Hang or manuever like Nath...RA still has the best displacement rolls I've seen in 10 years of doing this.
I guess what's most important is that we are all having fun...really doesn't matter what your style is as long as your grinnin while your flyin (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) For me personally, as long as I'm killin more folks than are killin me I'm happy...never have enjoyed my handle, tagged as killed, in someone elses buffer...prolly a pride thing (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Most importantly though...we all like each other in the 13th...we are friends and enjoy flyin together...without that, I would be lonewolfin again like back in WB's.
Cyas Up!<S>
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Ice
13thTAS
It's not the Big that kill the Small, but the Fast that kill the Slow!
[This message has been edited by Ice (edited 03-22-2001).]
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i have no problem with your alt. In some arenas it is great because then we never see each other. I like "layered' fights anyway. If I come up from a field that has 4-6 p51's over it and try to climb up to engage it's my own fault. Every time I have engaged a group of 13th guys by myself or with some scattered low greens...I knew it was dumb but due to circumstance or boredom i did it anyway.
I will add that I don't have the patience to fly effectively against P51's that are teamed up. I have no objection to 13th team tactics its just that I don't want to play. still... it is easy enough for me to just go somewhere else rather than participate.
I am glad that everyone doesn't fly that way since it is not a style I enjoy using or flying against. I feel with the addition of even more late war fast, poor turning planes... we are losing some balance tho. Good for 13th... bad for some of the rest of us.
lazs
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As much as I like to kid around with the 13TAS guys I have to say what you do, you do well - very very well. Never mind those who complain about your tactics or methods. They're sore losers. You folks aren't doing anything wrong at all. Well, except for RWY and Thunder who had the dubious honor of helping me break my "No-13TAS-kills" streak last weekend. In one flight and less than 3 minutes apart too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Well done guys (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
<S> to the 13TAS. Nothing less than full respect from me.
-Westy
(goes back to recruiting and training with the anti-13TAS high altitude mercenary force)
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It's kinda funny, since lately I've found myself on the other side with an arena full of D9's and La7's and other rides that for all intents and purposes just as fast as my pony and suddenly finding myself not able to run down anything and everything that comes my way. Just the other day I got bounced by a high D9 and he just ran for it after 1 pass and I stopped and yelled at the screen "G*d Damnit turn around a fight!" a second later I realized what I just said and decided it was time to rtb and go curl up in bed with a good book for a while. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Boss, I've been engaged together with Kirin with the 13Th TAS more than a few times (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Each and every time, they've extended once the altitude difference was equalized, unless they had superiority of numbers.
It's smart flying. Didn't mean to make that comment sound like a derogatory one.
I'll extend if I'm in a B&Z plane and outnumbered with no help coming.
Of course, it's hard to extend in an A5 if ya ain't got a few k's of alt.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"You filthy piece of distended rectum! DIE allierte schweinhund!"
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Originally posted by lazs:
i have no problem with your alt. In some arenas it is great because then we never see each other. I like "layered' fights anyway. If I come up from a field that has 4-6 p51's over it and try to climb up to engage it's my own fault. Every time I have engaged a group of 13th guys by myself or with some scattered low greens...I knew it was dumb but due to circumstance or boredom i did it anyway.
I will add that I don't have the patience to fly effectively against P51's that are teamed up. I have no objection to 13th team tactics its just that I don't want to play. still... it is easy enough for me to just go somewhere else rather than participate.
I am glad that everyone doesn't fly that way since it is not a style I enjoy using or flying against. I feel with the addition of even more late war fast, poor turning planes... we are losing some balance tho. Good for 13th... bad for some of the rest of us.
lazs
Lazs, giving the style of fighting you like, I would think you would be a a6m, spit, or N1K driver (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Get out of that F4!
G,D,R
(http://home.nc.rr.com/ammo/public.html/unw_sig.jpg) (http://www.jump.net/~cs3)
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A few tours back I went up against the 13th TAS in a low level fight around an airfield they were taking off from. I was in a 109F4 and a guy was there to help me out. I think I got 3 or 4 of 'em in an engagement off the coast, but I'll be damned if there wasn't one in front of me.. there was two behind me. They ran me outta fuel and I ditched as I extended away and some high squad mates came in and kept them occupied.
It was one of the funnest times I'd ever had, so I can't say that the 13TAS doesn't know how to get down low and mix it up. Sometimes I grab alt, especially if I know I'm going to encounter the 13th... some of those guys just scare me into the ground without firing a shot.
-SW
ps: you guys still need to get bigger canopies for those heads of yours. :-P (joke)
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what does that say about me then? i am usually looking down at you guys from the 109-o-sphere (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
it's all about plane choice - why bother to take a spit or n1k up to 25k when they are great turners and stall fighters ? - try that in a p51 like the 13th flies or a 109! doesn't work - you have to fly appropriately for the airplane - that said you are still nancies lol (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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ammo... yeah.. it would seem that the Hog isn't the greatest furballer but... if you look, it is the plane that more than any other fast plane, will engage or fight. I think that is because it has good roll and fair low speed turn. It has a great site for deflection shooting and it can take a few hits. You can fly it as a high speed e fighter like the 51 but the rear vision is not that great and it will get run down too easily. I think it is a mediocre plane performance wise in the current arena but it is more versitile than the one trick "pony" and therfore more fun.
I've been flying a lag7 some and find that all I do now is chase planes. The whole arena is hide and seek. In the Hog at least people will attack ya. Being below a couple or more 51's that work as a team and never allow their speed to drop while u are in a hog is not much fun tho and I would prefer to avoid it. I understand the how and why of such "tactics", I just don't enjoy being on either end of em. We need to seperate the very fast late war planes from the rest so that all styles of fighting get a chance.
lazs
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Cut and paste would save you a LOT of time, lazs. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
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Voss
13th TAS
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In closing, to those who feel we don't fight the way you think we should, well, PISS ON YA! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Enough said!
[/B]
I can honestly say this. I see you guys with altitude and E advantage on me and I will run screaming "oh crap, oh crap!" Then when I get to an equal footing I will head back in and get my kills.
Looking forward to seeing the 13th. Fly your fight and piss on all the others who squeak about it.
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ObstLt. Reschke
2/LJK Staffelkapitan
Kommandeur Jagdbomber
LuftJagerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
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Always enter the fight with the advantage.
"Always above, seldom on the same level, never underneath.!"
Major Edward "Mick" Mannock, RAF
Know your aircraft and what it does best!
"Know and use all the capabilities in your airplane. If you don't sooner or later, some guy who does use them all will kick your ass!"
Lt Dave "Preacher" Pace USN
Use teamwork and a co ordinated attack!
"The important thing in [tactics]is to suppress the enemhy's useful actions but allow hes useless actions. However, doing this alone is defensive"
Miyamoto Musashi
Fly together so much you know what each other with do instinctively!
"You fight like you train."
Moto, U.S. Navy Fighter Weapons School (TOPGUN)
(http://www.13thtas.com/images/sig/thsig.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Thunder (edited 03-24-2001).]
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Well, in JG 54 there was a pilot who said
"If you got home from a mission with a kill, but missing your wingman, your mission was a failure".
Hard to help your wingie when ya got one enemy on yer six, but ya gotta try (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
There are times when one arrives at the scene of a fight only to see a friendly engaged much lower with plenty of cons higher than him, and if you help him you know that you'll both be at a disadvantage. If you don't, he dies.
What to do? IN IN IN! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Use the extra speed to at least drag the high enemies down and towards more friendly territory.
Also in MA, when those hi inb cons come in, they usually do not operate in pairs, in which case a rotte has a good chance of suckering them in and getting shots at them.
Rottes or schwarms are much harder to deal with from a disadvantage.
All depends on the circumstances.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"You filthy piece of distended rectum! DIE allierte schweinhund!"