Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Beefcake on December 17, 2002, 10:26:06 PM
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I have no doubt the these numbers will change and each country will be affected by this, but when I logged off about 5 minutes ago to take a break, here were the numbers:
Bish 139 - 91 fields
Rooks 128- 94 fields
Knits - 163 - 70 fields
Even though the Knits are losing the war they have the most numbers and because of that they get peanilzed in perk points. I wanted to drive a tiger tonight but I couldn't as I only have 51 GV perks and to drive a tiger it cost 71 perks. Yes thats right 71 perks. We had a perk point bonus of 0.72, which means it costs about 20% more to fly or drive a perk vehicle.
Basicly what I'm trying to say is as of this moment in the MA, the Bish and Rooks are getting MORE perk points to "techincly" gangbang the Knits even though the knits are losing the war.
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Update: As of 12:22 AM EST
Bish 84 players - 96 fields
Rooks 80 players - 82 fields
Knits 144 players - 71 field
In Knight land it cost 375 points to fly a 262, 97 points to drive a Tiger, 140 points to fly a tempest....ect...and we're still losing. Isn't that a tad much?
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no.. seems fine to me...no doubt you guys will make good progress in land grabs w/ these numbers...gangbang nits... geez... another whine about sides not fightin each other... this old retread...geez.
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I don't mean to start a whine about sides fighting sides. The real reason I'm whining about this is because I really....REALLY want to drive tigers, but at 90-100 perks per each one no thank you. Also I don't want to drive a 100 perk Tiger facing an enemy which only has to pay 30 perks per Tiger. He/she has less to lose than me so they can take a greater risk. Just really sucks the fun out of it.
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Ahhh hmmm.. so your concern is that it is not "cost effective" unless the numbers are about even.... hmmm interesting side effect, Beef. I see where you're comin from
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I believe this is the reason they implemented the Perk scaling system.
After all, there is 50% more knights that the other countries, the perk penalty has nothing to do with knights loosing.
I think this is a good ting, and it will help even out the teams.
Lasse
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you have got to be kidding.
I hope the next phase is to start perking normal rides when the ratio gets so silly. IE lower the eny value of the bigger sides rides in the same ratio that you are raising the perk values right now..when they get below 10 eny they are perked. at 10 pts per time.
The whole idea of this is that you will want to take up a tiger enough to switch from the gang bang side to the underdog side....
get it?
Switch to rook. you would get to take up a tiger and make some change from the deal.
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"Just really sucks the fun out of it."
read that a hundered times beefcake...
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Pongo,
The only problem with switching to Rook is that some squads (like VMF-323) always fly for the same country so we don't end up fighting each other. VMF-323 always flys Knights.
MRPLUTO VMF-323 ~Death Rattlers~ MAG-33
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Whats the problem? Seems like a good idea to me.
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Pongo I would switch in a heartbeat to the lower side if I could, but I have a squad and I'm loyal to them. If they don't switch, I don't swtich. I guess I just have to suffer for the time being. I really dislike this system, but for now all I can do it sit here and whine. Someone give me some cheese.
On a side note, if HTC were to lower the side switching time from 24 to say maybe 6 hours, then I might switch...even without the squad.
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The number of fields is nothing but a delayed reflection of number of pilots. We have seen countless times countries coming back from the brink of reset - 3, 4 fields left - and turn the odds around because simply more pilots started logging in.
But now, the underdogs started to have some fun. Just today us Rooks got a real bargain at flying 262s for 113 perks, Spit14s for about 30 or so.. 5 points for C-Hogs! The Knights outnumbered us by two fold. Also, our perk multiplier was hefted up, and in one sortie where I killed only two planes in a La-7, it gave me about 3 perks. Were it normal conditions it would have given me about only 0.9~1.2. Contrary to us, I'll bet the typical N1K2 or La-7 driver in Knits today got something like only 1~1.5 perks even if he shot down 4~5 aircraft.
I'm sure even this merit will start to wear off some time, but currently, it does help the underdogs wipe off a great deal of the overwhelming frustration of "fek it. we're doomed".
Just think.. 25 points for a vehicle as powerful as a Tiger. This is some great balancing tool in advantage for the outnumbered.
As it is, I am completely content with the side-balance mechanism. It rewards the people whi have the guts to stay with the lesser and weak, and I am satisfied with that.
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Actually let me go ahead and chime in here on a good note. Whenever the knits finally have less numbers than the Bish a Rooks, I will enjoy driving my tigers for less than 50 a pop. Now when that happens is a different matter.
I will admit I am jumping the gun here, I should really wait a few more days on this new system. I have only seen the bad side of this system atm. I should really wait until I've played as the underdogs. I'm sorry.
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If the country with the highest #'s needs perk rides to gain territory then that says somthing don't it. ;)
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It doesn't matter, let 'em win the reset. Just find a place to play and have fun. The only thing that screws us knights up is massive assaults.
I don't know why perks should keep people from using Tigers... that's the only thing there is to spend vehicle perks on.
At a vehicle base, and again at an air field VH, I ran into Tigers sitting there vulching the VH. Not destroying the base, not destroying the VH, just vulching. Obviously those perks need to be raised, like to a couple hundred.
Went into the CT for the first time to get away from the dreadful milkrunning, base potatos. What a wonderfull place! The scenery is unbelievable, and most of the players didn't even HO.
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The odds of bringing any vehicle home safely when using it in an offensive role is slim, unless the battle you're taking it to is already being won. I don't think the Tiger perk cost should be raised. Most people aren't regular GV drivers and so it takes quite a bit of time to build up even 50 vehicle points.
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The way I see this, is that it will help us ROOKs in several ways. It costs us less to fight and die because we are usually gang-banged, and it levels the field.
Having said that, the rotating squads may become more permanent. maybe not, but it is likely that the balance of power will now be shifted into "NEUTRAL" !! :rolleyes:
This is a fun environment and it should be kept that way. As much as I like to fly a CHOG for 8 perkies, I'd still pay 10 or 6 to do the same. It matters not how much, what matters is "is it fun and worth it to you?"
K-KEN
http://www.cutthroats.com/
(http://www.cutthroats.com/art/buttons/on_patch8Xs.gif)
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Whoopee friggin doo..???
HTC finally implemented the balancing method I was whining for?
I might have to renew my account boys! And girls.. :)
Beefcake: It's easy to hide behind the squad thing. Basically everyone has an excuse why not to switch sides and continue the gangbang. This is exactly why the method in question was introduced.
I've fought my own teammates at times when the other side was being banged.. No big deal. Nobody got hurt as this is not real life.
So if you really REALLY want to drive tigers, go ahead and switch side. Chances are you'll never land a ping at your squadmates, have fun and do some good in the process (help the underdog.)
Think about it.
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I think the system works fine, penalizing the numerically superior while rewarding those who fight against the odds.
Sure whine all you like, maybe you don’t get the C-Hog or the Spit14 at bargain prices, but you got a wingman more.
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little off the subject but,
I went into the CT for the first time tonite as well just to check it out and it was pretty fun and the people were nice and there were good fights.
I'll definately be back there again.
people are pretty good about keeping it fairly even from what I can tell, because there don't seem to be any full squads in there that fly only one side.
Nice break from the MA, it seems much more cozy in the CT almost like a fightertown. :)
Originally posted by Grizzly
Went into the CT for the first time to get away from the dreadful milkrunning, base potatos. What a wonderfull place! The scenery is unbelievable, and most of the players didn't even HO.
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Beefcake the new perk balancing system has nothing to do with how many bases a country has but rather how many are flying for that country. So you see it is working as advertised and not flawed. If the Knitwits would get organized and capture a base instead of just de-acking it and vulching, then the Knitwits would win a reset or two.
Ack-Ack
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Originally posted by Beefcake
I don't mean to start a whine about sides fighting sides. The real reason I'm whining about this is because I really....REALLY want to drive tigers, but at 90-100 perks per each one no thank you. Also I don't want to drive a 100 perk Tiger facing an enemy which only has to pay 30 perks per Tiger. He/she has less to lose than me so they can take a greater risk. Just really sucks the fun out of it.
But didn't this enemy Tiger took the risk to face 2 Pzr ?
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Originally posted by Pongo
whole idea of this is that you will want to take up a tiger enough to switch from the gang bang side to the underdog side....
get it?
Switch to rook. you would get to take up a tiger and make some change from the deal.
Problem is the 2 countries pounding on one. If there are
2 countries with a 100 on pounding a country with a 144
on the country with the numbers is at a disadvantage.
And now will get perk penalties for getting gangbanged.
:rolleyes:
So far it aint working.
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When you have a game where there are three countries ... one will always get bashed more. Perfect balance would require a GM.
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Maybe the system should be based on bases owned instead of numbers on line. People on line does not reflect the action going on such as two teams piling on one with total numbers. But bases owned will help the country with the least amount of bases. Not much good having numbers when all your bases are being vulched or your hangers are dead.
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The only "Fatal Flaw" is Knit incompetence.
Your telling me that becuase you cannot drive the tiger thats a flaw...
How bout this scenario 150 vs 150 vs 50
And the 50 have no dar all their fields are raped, and its raining sheep.. (or lemmings if your prefer)
Think about that scenario but wait it happens 15 - 20 days out of 4-8 tours in a row....
Now you see why attrition was built in...
Hell with 20-30 more people you can use soviet cold war tactics and have 15 panzers 2 ostys and some airsupport vs 2 tigers... yeah thats fair right....
How can you whine when your 10 fields down....
The only exploit I can see is perk potatos who mercenary to the weakest side to get perks... Now as long raz them losers on the BBS then all will know their treachery.
This has been the best update since the arena got over 200 people...
Now Suxor tactics are penalized (not all that much, but enough to turn the tide of the battle.)
Waah its semi fair now.... or the Horror, the Horror......
DoctorYO
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Seems to me it works as designed.
Great job ht thanks For the perk balance system............:)
x2lee look at the number Beefcake posted at 12:22
thes 160 bishrooks vrs 140 knights barely outnumbered even if bishrooks are both attacking knights.
In his 1st number post 70 fields aint necessarily "losing" especially on the pizza map. Hell their are plenty of vbases that can easily be grabbed.
As others pointed out big whup :) Maybe some of those unassigned pilots will make the shift to balance things out. If not maybe a squad or 2 maybe switch. Better a carrot then a stick.
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Originally posted by Beefcake
I have no doubt the these numbers will change and each country will be affected by this, but when I logged off about 5 minutes ago to take a break, here were the numbers:
Bish 139 - 91 fields
Rooks 128- 94 fields
Knits - 163 - 70 fields
:D Not to upstage Rude or anything but....
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Originally posted by Beefcake
As I feared, the fatal flaw in the new Perk system shows up.
Is it not wether is fatal or not. Concentrate in the truth. And the truth is there is no flaw... :D
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Sounds like it's working as adverrtised. Well done HTC!
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Haha a Knights numbers whine - (looks for old post consoling Rooks about how it was "your turn in bucket"). Working as designed, WTG HTC!
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Does the whining ever stop? Can't we all jujst get along?????
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Beefcake the new perk balancing system has nothing to do with how many bases a country has but rather how many are flying for that country. So you see it is working as advertised and not flawed. If the Knitwits would get organized and capture a base instead of just de-acking it and vulching, then the Knitwits would win a reset or two.
Ack-Ack
Actually, we rolled an airbase and a port before I lost my UDP session for the 2nd time in less than 2 hours, and we did it with the standard gvs. The improved Panzer model is a big improvement over the previous paper-thin Panzer armor. I think the Panzer is finally modelled the way it should be.
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I can understand Perk Planes costing LESS for the country that is loosing. I don't understand the perk costs RISING for the other countries. For most, they are already prohibitively expensive...why exaggerate the price even higher?
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To penalize them for not balancing the numbers.
People won't care about the numbers if the prices they personally are involved with remain just "standard', whether or not other country gets them cheaper. "Hohum... so the other guys have the 262 at 130? Ah well, our 262 is still 200... not as cheap, but who cares? Nothing's changed for us!"
However, the story's different if the prices rise for the mucho country. You are being penalized for being in the largest country. Not just prohibitive, but up to outrageously expensive levels, when numbers balance is really bad. "Holy crap, 400 points for a 262?? 120 for a Spit14?? How am I gonna ride this thing with any kind of comfort now?"
Therefore, if one wants to stick with the hoarde, no problem. Pay the price for it... and expensive prices, too.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Perfect balance would require a GM.
Wouldnt Dodge or Ford work?
:D
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Originally posted by ET
Maybe the system should be based on bases owned instead of numbers on line. People on line does not reflect the action going on such as two teams piling on one with total numbers. But bases owned will help the country with the least amount of bases. Not much good having numbers when all your bases are being vulched or your hangers are dead.
Adjusting perk cost/award values as a balance tool is a good idea, but remember that it was just implemented; it's going to take HTC some time to accumulate enough statistics to find the best computation to get the balance they're looking for.
On the other hand, there are some fundamental problems with the way that it's implemented. Aircraft and GVs are fundamentally different; you can take off in a plane and fly several sectors to attack or defend if you need to (12-sector round trips being possible for the B-17 and Lancaster); GVs rarely will get more than a few miles from their spawn point, which functionally limits them to attacking an adjacent field, and the arrangement of vehicle spawn points can easily create situations where a country that is severely reduced in bases may have little or no ability to attack other fields with GVs.
What I propose is that the perk arrangement be split up. Perk awards for kills are always based on the ratio of player numbers in each country, as are perk costs for aircraft. Perk costs for vehicles are based on the ratio of bases held by each country. So a country that was getting gang-banged into a corner would be able to mount heavy GV assaults or defenses, but not handed the ability to overpower their opponents in the air.
Another suggestion, and one that I'm sure will generate a lot of arguing on both sides of the proposition, is to adjust perk cost not on the numbers of players in a country, but their success. When the arena resets, each country's perk multiplier is set to 1. When a country captures a field, its perk multiplier is raised; when a country loses a field, its perk multiplier is lowered.
This has the advantage that it inherently compensates for what is actually happening in the arena; if a country is getting gang-banged by both enemy countries and losing bases left and right, its perk costs will go down, even if it has more players (and if they're dweebish enough to be losing with a numerical advantage, they need all the help they can get), but if they get organized and start taking bases back, their perk costs will rise. This will have the consequence of making a country stiffer as it gets backed into a corner -- the more fields it loses, the lower its perk costs will be, and the more perked rides people are going to be taking up, but that advantage starts draining away as they push the attackers back.
The cost factors would probably need to be adjusted for each arena, so that the range of perk factors would be the same (say, 400% of normal if you had both enemy countries down to 4 fields, and 10% of normal if you were down to 4 fields), regardless of how many fields there were on a particular map (i.e., the increase/decrease per field on AKDesert would be smaller than for NDIsles, but the overall range would be the same).
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This whole concept revolves around idea that people care about perks and people would change sides because of perks.
I would venture to guess a great deal of pilots do not care about perks, ones who have been around a while probably have 1000s in the bank.
Also, I think great deal of pilots fly with a squad and are pretty loyal to a certain country & will not switch over do to silly perk points.
And besides, who uses perk planes as main tool to capture a base? Fairly simple to do without perk rides.
Remember, have fun. If perks are big motivator for you, then by all means switch sides.
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The perk system was a bad idea from the start!
If you suck you will never get to fly all the AC/Vehicles.
If you have a life and can't spend 5 hours a day flying you have to wait a looong time to fly everything.
Plus if you were here in Beta you were able to keep all your points that you had Back when it was reeeeeal easy to game the game and get points.
And can you guess who really likes the Perk system? The ones I just mentioned because they have all the points they will ever need and they didn't have to work real hard to get them.
So here it is we don't all get to use the same AC/Vehicle but we still have to pay the same amount.
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I'm quite happy with the perk system. Dunno if it would be possible to have it better, but I'm deeply convinced that having no perks would be much worse than what we have now.
On the "dynamic" perk system, I want to have a more extense track record to make an opinion about it, but I really appreciate the general idea. When you want to fly a perk plane, it's not only what it costs, but the chances and odds you face to take it back to hangar safe and more or less sound. If you are severely outnumbered, that chances are slim. I think it's only fair to decrease perk value in this case.
Cheers,
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I will admit I did have alot of fun today driving a tiger for 32 perks a pop, but sadly it was short lived as after I logged on the knit numbers starting going up. I still think HTC needs to have the perk system based on country numbers AND the amount of bases the team has.
However, after the fun I had today I'm going to withdraw my above statment and give the system a few more weeks.
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How long you been flying Oedipus?
How good of a pilot are you?
How long did it take you to get points?
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Beefcake the new perk balancing system has nothing to do with how many bases a country has but rather how many are flying for that country. So you see it is working as advertised and not flawed. If the Knitwits would get organized and capture a base instead of just de-acking it and vulching, then the Knitwits would win a reset or two.
Ack-Ack
It isn't about vulching, although that is common to all countries. It's about wanting to fight with planes using ACM. Base grabbing is the antithesis of this.
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Way too much too read in this thread :p
The side balancing is nice, but it doesn't solve the problem at it's root. It doesn't matter if one country has a few players more or less (unless it's a large percentage more or less), but the real problem is when two countries stop fighting, gang banging the third. At even numbers this creates a 2 vs. 1 situation. Usually the gang banged country has lower numbers anyway, so it gets even worse.
Still, I like the new perk system. Better than without. For a two sided arena it would be perfect ;)
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Originally posted by Ecliptik
Most people aren't regular GV drivers and so it takes quite a bit of time to build up even 50 vehicle points.
m3 resupply missions raise perks fast.
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Originally posted by Grizzly
It's about wanting to fight with planes using ACM. Base grabbing is the antithesis of this.
Not necessarily, depends on your own POV.
Vulching gangbanging and landgrabbing are arguably very realistic in a "real world warfare" sense. The first two, at least, require two sides fighting each other, in planes. Are these planes not using ACMs in their fighting? Are our own miltary pilots not taught to use these tactics when possible?
IMO, you're avoiding the real subject, which is most easily stated "different strokes for different folks". You'd like an arena where people could duel in planes, on terms that are fair, or at least manageable. That's OK, but other people like to simulate warfare, and warfare isn't about set piece dueling.
culero (likes baiting bears)
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As I feared, another post about a numbers whine. (and from a knight no less, what is the world coming to)
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Mighty1, it is also very dependent on the plane you fly. If you up the late war monsters, you don't earn perks as fast as you do landing kills in the early-war rides. I regularly fly the P51B, and although I'm far from being a good stick, I always get at least 4-5 perks per sortie. This can range upwards of 40-50 depending on how many and what kind of kills I manage to land.
I also very rarely use my perk points. The only times you'll see me in a perked ride is when I up with guys from the squad for a "let's see how many guys we can get into a conga line behind us" sortie. Nothing like driving a 262 low on the deck and watch everyone drop what they are doing to come shoot you down. It's worth losing the 200 perks to see so many people do so many silly things :).
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Originally posted by culero
Not necessarily, depends on your own POV.
Vulching gangbanging and landgrabbing are arguably very realistic in a "real world warfare" sense. The first two, at least, require two sides fighting each other, in planes. Are these planes not using ACMs in their fighting? Are our own miltary pilots not taught to use these tactics when possible?
IMO, you're avoiding the real subject, which is most easily stated "different strokes for different folks". You'd like an arena where people could duel in planes, on terms that are fair, or at least manageable. That's OK, but other people like to simulate warfare, and warfare isn't about set piece dueling.
culero (likes baiting bears)
Bait away purdy boy >=o)
But I don't disagree with a syllable you wrote.
Certainly in real life one would try to destroy the enemy without opposition, and that's perfectly appropriate in this game. But it is a game, and there are many ways to play to suite the players.
A capture the flag type game is great. Some like GV battles. I like the sea battles, especially at night. Some people enjoy going head to head with the enemy in fighters, some 1 on 1, others like furballs. Then there is the combination of flag capture and dogfighting where they fight over one or more bases using ACM. I suppose bomber types enjoy setting up a mission on strategic targets, laying a blanket of bombs across a group of factories... I can dig it.
My point was that if a country, even with greater numbers, isn't well organized to work together for the common objective of winning a reset, it could be because many of the players don't care about that and are spending their time playing a different type of game. It's all good... just like you said, different strokes for different folks. =o/
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Response to Culero continued:
I failed to expound on the antithesis thing.
In capture the flag (arena reset) play, the ends usually justify the means. The idea is to capture more bases faster. The best means by which to do this is not dogfighting, but avoiding dogfights to damage the base quicker. Certainly fights between airplanes occur, but it's better if they can be avoided. If you want to grab a base quick, I can think of two ways. One is to attack bases that are poorly defended, and the other is to use all your forces to overwhelm the opposition.
In game play where players use ACM to fight over a base, the means is the objective and base capture the reward. Though they both involve base capture, the entire character of the two types of game play is different, thus the antithesis.
But I do have a whine about all this. You especially enjoy scenario type play... a sort of aerial role playing immersed in realism. This is great too... but would be very hard to do in the same arena where others are playing capture the flag (you can't control the interferance, and when someone gets close to winning, the arena is porked). They're all good, just that flag capture can be intrusive. So bait me on that >=o)
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Originally posted by Grizzly
In capture the flag (arena reset) play, the ends usually justify the means. The idea is to capture more bases faster. The best means by which to do this is not dogfighting, but avoiding dogfights to damage the base quicker.
snip
OK I see what you mean now - given that base captures happen the fastest when the opposition is either non-existant or successfully suppressed.
I just remember fondly the days in AW Big Pac when you steenking assed Az and those cowardly Bz would try to agress upon glorious Cz Land with sneak attacks designed to steal our fields, and us courageous Cz fighters would all have fun defending against the hordes. We liked to think that outnumbered or not, we were using our superior ACM skills to repel your foul advances ;)
But I do have a whine about all this. You especially enjoy scenario type play... a sort of aerial role playing immersed in realism. This is great too... but would be very hard to do in the same arena where others are playing capture the flag (you can't control the interferance, and when someone gets close to winning, the arena is porked). They're all good, just that flag capture can be intrusive. So bait me on that >=o) [/QUOTE]
Bah, arena whines, who cares? Arenas are just practice for scenarios anyway :D
culero
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The perk system works for me.....doesn't cost me a thing for my P38 :).