Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Puke on December 18, 2002, 10:09:37 AM
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After seeing a little discussion on ch 1 regarding G tolerance and pilot death due to Gs, I did a quick search on the web. It seems the results published/posted can vary a little, but generally it appears as though an instantaneous pull of 12Gs is really nothing and is not life threatenint. Here is one paragraph I found during my search which I find interesting:
There is a very large
difference between continuous acceleration and very brief acceleration,
i.e. impacts, when it comes to human survival. A 20G impact is not even
particularly severe; parachute-opening shocks reach that level. John
Stapp survived 50G rocket-sled braking, with some injuries. My old copy
of NASA's "Bioastronautics Databook" says that the limit of survival for
impacts is circa 175-200G, with a footnote that any single number is
misleading because it depends on many factors.
Also, I found this chart on the same post:
Time (min) +Gx -Gx +Gz -Gz
.01 (<1 sec) 35 28 18 8
.03 (2 sec) 28 22 14 7
.1 20 17 11 5
.3 15 12 9 4.5
1 11 9 7 3.3
3 9 8 6 2.5
10 6 5 4.5 2
30 4.5 4 3.5 1.8
With a G-suit on (left columns), it seems the human can withstand 15 Gs for 30% of 1-minute. 20Gs for 6 seconds! Without a G suit, 14 Gs for 2 seconds.
[crud, the above table isn't transferring to here correctly]
{Source}
http://www.yarchive.net/space/science/g_tolerance.html
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Doesn't +-9G pass out the pilot for while? If so, look at it this way, if your glock by 12Gs or so passes you out for (relatively to dogfight scale) good, it's maybe the same as hitech saying he doesn't want the player spending time watching himself die.
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Doesn't +-9G pass out the pilot for while?
9Gs constant.... not instataneously and highly unlikely "for a while"... simply because your heart is still working, just need the blood to return to your eye balls. I think it's -5Gs constant that will cause red outs.
-SW
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How many Gs can the aircraft pull?
I think the Instant Death by Gs is just a factor of the plane rippings its wings off and your dead anyway.
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Originally posted by Midnight
How many Gs can the aircraft pull?
I think the Instant Death by Gs is just a factor of the plane rippings its wings off and your dead anyway.
Well, we've gone over this several times. It's not airframe failure, it's death. People who have witnessed it say that the aircraft simply disappears. It's also aircraft specific. It happens to the Wildcats with great frequency, as one example. There are some guys who push their aircraft much harder than most. They are the ones most adversely affected by this bug, which did not exist before the second 1.10 patch.
My regards,
Widewing
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i know a guy who flys f15's and he claims that in one a person can survive a 12 g turn
and in the 163 the plane rips to shreds before your hit with the g's and if the plane doesnt your fuel will slosh and BOOOM
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Well I was in the arena when this conversation was just ending, the only thing I saw HT type on the matter was:
Didnt I just explain that?
Erm.....some of us missed it, could ya explain it again on the BBS pls?
Why insta death at 12G?
(http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/extern/640697.jpg)
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insta death at 12g's because ww2 planes couldent take that kind of punishment even if the pilots could
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Aircraft are generally rated to about 1.5 times the amount of max G that is stated. Thus, the Tomcat which is rated to 7.5 Gs can actually survive to 11.5Gs...they can survive more than that too depending on the circumstance. It's just any time the aircraft incurrs more than the rated max, it has to undergo inspection for cracks and things. Aircraft are pretty tough and for the most part we are talking about instantaneous G here, people. The millisecond you or your aircraft hits 12Gs does not mean it's the end of your life or your aircraft's structural integrity. If this 12G death thing is for gameplay, then that is fine and I have no qualms. If it's there because it's thought to simulate how it works in the real world, then it's wrong and no one should be upset about us bringing it to HTC's and people-in-general's attention.
As has been stated before, when you are walking around the house and trip and fall and your body stops its fall by hitting the ground, that is typically more than 9Gs. That's instantaneous though. If the floor kept pushing upwards like that, you could probably survive it without any damage (bloody eyes or blackout) for a few minutes.
I'm *guessing* that there is an insta-death at 12Gs because the game's data doesn't go beyond that or strange things start happening and so anything hitting 12Gs or more no matter how short of a time will go boom.
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Originally posted by vorticon
insta death at 12g's because ww2 planes couldent take that kind of punishment even if the pilots could
Many, if not most,COULD take 12g for short duration excursions. It takes time for materials to fail under load.
Grumman's F4F was so over-engineered that it could survive SUSTAINED (for as long as 15 seconds in some cases) loads in excess of 12g, without airframe damage. Grumman test pilot Corky Meyer has documented this in the pages of Flight Journal.
My regards,
Widewing
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Also, its been recently proven that women pilots can sustain higher G's than men, and I believe a woman holds the record for sustained G's in that NASA thingy that goes around and around.
Thats gotta hurt a few Male ego's. ;)
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Just to be clear, is this why I've seen some planes just suddenly disappear recently as noted in this post? I will let the experts debate the merits, but it would be nice to at least see an explosion so you know they didn't warp under you or something.
Charon
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Also, its been recently proven that women pilots can sustain higher G's than men, and I believe a woman holds the record for sustained G's in that NASA thingy that goes around and around.
Centrifuge?
Ferris Wheel?
Schlong?
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theres the proof from nasa HTC
its pretty damning and shows the AH 12g death is totally unrealistic.
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alright then what's the reason?
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I suspect it may be a net-code thing, along the lines of "Don't move your controls so quickly" 15G's for a split second repeatedly could wreak havoc on the netcode.
Still, IMO a hard limit on G-forces, limiting the stick pull to 12g's(or even less) is a better way to go than the obviously gamey 12g deaths.
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Im of the opinion, especially from a gameplay perspective, that the level of burst Gs (as well as sustained Gs) should be charted to require preset lengths of time to recover from.
The harder and longer the Gs forces being exposed to, the longer the times for recovery from blackout should be.
Ive long since tired of the LA7, Spit, N1K crowd pulling bursts of 8-12gs then gaining near instant recovery usually in good offensive position. I believe these high G survival manoevers should require a more severe timed recovery from blackouts.
Im aware of different two lenghts of recovery time from blackouts in AH (near instant quarter second blackouts and very rarely -
long 10 second blackouts) but they do not appear related to near instant heavy G force exposure only lengthy G force exposure.
Blah blah blaaaaah...same goes for redouts.
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All A/C has a designed max load factor, the maximum number of G's the airframe can handle without suffering lasting deformations. However in an emergency this limit can be exceeded up to the designed breakage load factor, but with lasting deformations and a weakening of the airframe as a result. During WWII the typical max load factor was 7-8 G's with a 1.5 G safety margin. This means that the A/C would start to fall apart at about 9-10 G's, but not instantaneously. Pulling 12 G's for more than a second would surely overstress the airframe.
Pilots OTOH would not die or even G-loc at 12 G's if it was held for no more than a couple of seconds. Grey-out or a short temporary loss of vision, yes ... but not loss of consciousness.
Modern jets have much higher G tolerance. Typically around 9 G’s. The Mig-29 has a designed max load factor of 12 G’s, and in one near midair collision at supersonic speed a Mig-29 was reported to have suffered more than 20 G’s. Both A/C and pilot made it home, but the A/C was scrapped.
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Limit Load = The load factor limit ("G limit") that the pilot is supposed to obey. This is what you will find in operating manuals. The plane will not fall apart at this load, nor will any damage occur if the plane is in pristine condition.
Ultimate Load = Load where plastic deformation occurs. Airframe is permanently damaged. Generally 1.5 times Limit Load. This is not neccesarily a fracture load. Airframe will be bent but not broken.
Limit Load is less than Ultimate Load because of fatigue considerations and uncertainty in stress calculations.
The 1.5 factor is a US convention. I'm pretty sure some WW2 fighters had smaller factors.
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Forget it puke, it won't work. At more than one con I spent over an hour trying to explain G effects to either HT or Pyro, and even though I bought dozens of drinks, the most I got from them was "hmmm interesting", and years later the only visible change is that the grayout effect has gotten much nicer :)
Seriously, I know its easier for the HTC guys to listen to calm, cool, collected feedback and maybe it's just my personality, but I've discussed the G limits with them since CK beta and I still don't know if they ever listened or simply discarded my inputs.
On one of the last T-37 sorties before I was grounded for my back problem, I pulled 6.5 G's for an extended period of time. I suffered no grayout whatsoever and no excessive fatigue, even though I was not wearing a G suit. I've given them as many hard facts as I could with regards to real people pulling G's in actual combat (I flew a BFM training sortie in the F-15E without my G-suit connected and the adrenaline was enough to let me pull over 8 G's several times throughout the sortie with no grayout) and centrifuge experiences (7.5 sustained with no G-suit) but the limits remain where they are.
I have never been given back any feedback from HTC about this, so the only thing I can think of is that they are simulating the G tolerances a WWII pilot might have. That WWII pilot was a heavy smoker, heavy drinker, was either inexperienced or had combat fatigue, and had very little training regarding Gs because almost no research had been done in that area and so any anti-G strain was largely anecdotal techniques passed from instructor to student. All this changed with the G-suits in the P-51 according to my limited knowledge of history, but I do not know when that research occurred and when the pilots began receiving formal anti-G training and techniques.
I do know that smoking will increase resting (no strain) G tolerance by about 1 G :)
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Non-pilots will black out at about 5-6 G's in a matter of seconds. When they come to, they feel woozy for up to an hour. Experienced pilots with G-tolerance can handle varying degrees of G-force without even blinking an eye over it. This ranges from 6-12 G. Rarely can a human pilot exceed 9G without blacking out under any circumstances.
When a pilot DOES black out, he becomes unconcious, and the plane flies straight on course - or according to its trim settings, in the case of WWII warbirds.
Of course, in Aces High, when the pilot blacks out, the aircraft continues to fly under the high G load as if the pilot were awake and alert.
This needs to change.
I would prefer the pilot blackout, and then have limited command ability of his aircraft as he comes to. The more a pilot blacks-out, the lower the G level he can take before blacking out again, and the longer he'll be blacked out for. Air Warrior simulated this, why can't Aces High?
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Originally posted by funkedup
Limit Load = The "G limit" the pilot is supposed to obey. This is what you will find in operating manuals.
Ultimate Load = Load where plastic deformation occurs. Airframe is permanently damaged. Generally 1.5 times Limit Load.
Limit Load is less than Ultimate Load because of fatigue considerations and uncertainty in stress calculations.
The 1.5 factor is a US convention. I'm pretty sure some WW2 fighters had smaller factors.
Thanks for the English terminology Funkedup. :)
I seem to remember that the Germans obeyed a 1.5 G's safety margin for Ultimate Load (not 1.5 times Limit Load like the US).
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"When a pilot DOES black out, he becomes unconcious"
This is not strictly correct. "Blackout" and "G-LOC" is not the same thing. Once you black out you can no longer see but you are still awake, however you had best stop pulling G's real quick like or else G-LOC will soon set in.
J_A_B
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eagl, I wasn't really trying to convince HT of anything. Also, I've never encountered this insta-death/too-many-G's thing myself and probably 'cause I try to fly w/out any severe maneuvering and keep my E up. (I don't know how to maneuver really and it's related directly to not being able to translate the 2D screen view to a 3D view in my head of what's going on and the angles.) I just saw a little discussion about it on Ch1 and it seemed a lot of people are confused. 12Gs does not result in death in and of itself.
Blackout is just a loss of vision...but you are still awake and aware and can still fly the aircraft by feel. Loss of consciousness is entirely different and that results well after the loss of vision if you keep the G up.
If HTC has it programmed this way because he thinks it replicates real world, then he's completely incorrect. If he programs it this way for game-reasons, then that's okay and I'm fine with it.
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Yet again, a word from the great Cod HT would silence the masses......shall we all look upward in expectation or shall we just have faith?
Aw bollocks, faith sucks.
(http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/extern/640697.jpg)
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Very interesting reading.. escpecially the account given by a real F15 driver above.
My own 2 cents.. from several hours of rolling scissors in a Marchetti-SF260 light attack/fighter.. with accellerometer (G gauge).
No pnuematic g-suit.
A quick 4~5G pullout, you say.. WHoooWeee thats cool!
After the 4th or 5th rolling inverted tail-end chase, tight-loop,, Split-S bottoming out at +6gs, your eyes fill with yellow stars, the sound of roaring engine fades, it becomes a dreamlike state, all the pressure is gone, eyes only can focus in a baseball sized circle ahead.. circle getting smaller & smaller..
Head & Helmet now weigh 40lbs or more, and looking up through canopy top for opponent is now impossible because throat/neck muscles can not support the weight.. pain in shoulders as helmet ear pieces smash down into them.. Bottom jaw is pulled down, and you can't quite muster the strength to close your mouth..
Hand on control stick still works, just enough for the good sense in the brain to say; "ease off the pull or you are going under"
Squeeze & grunt stomach, growling aloud through clenched teeth, and miraculously the closing visual circle gets larger (slightly!)..
Top of next loop, brain says enuff of this toejam, lets do a negative push-over at the top.. PUSH stick forward, and do half-twist trying to put canopy vector on opponent..
Suddenly you realize that the you did not tighten the 5-point harness enough. Body lifts off seat only inches, before harness bites,, helmet & head then squash into canopy top,, bending neck on 45 degree angle,, so that ear is flat on shoulder. It stays there, until you pull stick back again.
Meanwhile, the 55 year old IP sitting in the next seat, is commenting, calmly as if in his EZ-chair at home..
"wonderful loop, there he goes! Look up, there he is! Ohh, that was a nice little split-s,,"
6.5 G's and I'm gone.. Next thing I hear is him softly calling my voice.. "Hello? Helloooo?"
Go figure..
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Which was the structural G limit for SpitIX? infinite:confused: ?
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Originally posted by rv6
Very interesting reading.. escpecially the account given by a real F15 driver above.
If you believe that guy really flew an F15, I've got a bridge to sell you in New York.
Casper
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i cant remember the name of the pilot but i saw a show on the history show about the begining of the jet age ejection seats....
in testing g forces he voulnteered as a test subject back in the '50's
he was put on a rocket sled and slowed down from 1800mph to 0 in something like 40 feet ... 86+ g's and survived .... yes he was blind for a few weeks because his eyes were engorged with blood and he had numerous other ailments ... but he survived.
oh well my 2¢
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Originally posted by Widewing
Many, if not most,COULD take 12g for short duration excursions. It takes time for materials to fail under load.
Yup, and that time is measured in milliseconds. Current aircraft design practice is that the limits are set at 1/1.5 ultimate load (don't know what they were in WW2). Ultimate load means just that, ultimate , exceed it and something breaks. Usually that something is a wing spar. Aircraft have to be designed lightweight or they will not fly. It is unrealistic to think that you can hold your aircraft at or above the ultimate load for even a few seconds.
Grumman's F4F was so over-engineered that it could survive SUSTAINED (for as long as 15 seconds in some cases) loads in excess of 12g, without airframe damage. Grumman test pilot Corky Meyer has documented this in the pages of Flight Journal.
An isolated case that is probably true. However, how heavily loaded was the aircraft at the time? How heavy the aircraft is loaded determines the max G limit. 12g might have been still below the ultimate load of the airframe while lightly loaded.
This example adds no support to the argument that all WW2 aircraft should be able to handle G above the pilot limits. This is an isolated anecdotal example. (hehe big words)
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Originally posted by Casper
If you believe that guy really flew an F15, I've got a bridge to sell you in New York.
Casper
And if you believe blacking out results in loss of consciousness, I'll sell you back that bridge.
-SW
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Originally posted by Oedipus
"....blackout, and then unconsciousness.
Blackout preceeds unconsciousness, but when you are blacked out, you are not necessarily unconscious.
-SW
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IMO, some of you are getting off track here. Sustained and instantaneous Gs are different animals. Blackouts, pulling rivets and cracking spars and insta-death are all different too. I have pulled the wings off my Mustang in Aces High and I will tumble to the earth. However, Aces High also includes some instant death feature invoked the instant you reach 12Gs.
In my initial post I copied something about a gentleman by the name of John Stapp. Here is a quote and the link to an article about the man...
"The sled reached 632 miles per hour, decelerating to zero in a second and a quarter (1¼ sec) with a force of more than forty Gs. His momentary body weight became 6,800 pounds."
The guy lived.
Here's the link.
http://www.spacefame.org/stapp.html
Don't post what you *think*, but what is true.
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Originally posted by funkedup
Limit Load = The load factor limit ("G limit") that the pilot is supposed to obey. This is what you will find in operating manuals. The plane will not fall apart at this load, nor will any damage occur if the plane is in pristine condition.
Ultimate Load = Load where plastic deformation occurs. Airframe is permanently damaged. Generally 1.5 times Limit Load. This is not neccesarily a fracture load. Airframe will be bent but not broken.
Limit Load is less than Ultimate Load because of fatigue considerations and uncertainty in stress calculations.
The 1.5 factor is a US convention. I'm pretty sure some WW2 fighters had smaller factors.
Sorry funked, didn't read down far enough before I replied, see my post above.
Limit load is pretty much as you described. Once you exceed the limit load, damage may occur (which is why checks are carried out if it is ever exceeded).
If the ultimate load is exceeded, however, the aircraft can be expected to fail, not just bend. The materials used in aircraft usually fail soon after starting to deform, that is why you hardly ever see aircraft landing with bent airframes after exceeding the structural limits, they are usually smoking holes soon after reaching ultimate load.
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I think the point is that the majority of aircraft in Aces High shouldn't be able to safely pull 12g. Aluminium and steel aren't as resilient as the human body.
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Originally posted by Blue Mako
Yup, and that time is measured in milliseconds. Current aircraft design practice is that the limits are set at 1/1.5 ultimate load (don't know what they were in WW2). Ultimate load means just that, ultimate , exceed it and something breaks. Usually that something is a wing spar. Aircraft have to be designed lightweight or they will not fly. It is unrealistic to think that you can hold your aircraft at or above the ultimate load for even a few seconds.
An isolated case that is probably true. However, how heavily loaded was the aircraft at the time? How heavy the aircraft is loaded determines the max G limit. 12g might have been still below the ultimate load of the airframe while lightly loaded.
This example adds no support to the argument that all WW2 aircraft should be able to handle G above the pilot limits. This is an isolated anecdotal example. (hehe big words)
I believe that you have missed the context of my comments. I have insisted since this “bug” appeared that the pilot can withstand considerably higher momentary G loads than his aircraft. That is precisely why I am somewhat miffed with this instant death syndrome. Some have stated that it may be the airframe failing under load. However, in the case of the Wildcat, there is data aplenty that illustrates than a 12 G momentary loading (we’re probably looking at milliseconds duration to induce instant death in the game) will not damage the Grumman’s airframe. Sustained loads of that order have resulted in bending of the engine A-frames, but no known structural failures. So, not only should the pilot not die (or likely experience any perceived discomfort for a 10-50 millisecond load duration), but the aircraft will not suffer catastrophic failure either. Grumman was always extremely conservative when calculating failure loading, typically designing in a 10% reserve above and beyond the basic design criteria.
Think about this for a second. Back in the 1940s, the types of analog stripchart recorders used for flight testing did not have the response time to record inputs where the duration was less than 10 milliseconds. It’s like using an analog multimeter to monitor a power frequency of 100 Hz. It is entirely likely that short duration inputs well in excess of 20 g (for say 10 msec) would never be recorded. We had a few of these antiques and found them useless in recording, much less isolating G input where the input duration was less than 0.025 seconds. Faster systems came along eventually, but those old recorders where of limited value.
My regards,
Widewing
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Widewing, I see where you are coming from and I don't doubt the accuracy of anything you have said. However, I think the people posting saying "a pilot can handle as many G's as you can put on him" are missing the fundamental point that for the majority of aircraft that are modelled in AH, the airframe will break up with loads (even if instantaneous) that are well above the normal design loads. That means that whether or not the organic flight control unit can handle it, the plane is going to be going down in small pieces. It seems that HTC have modelled the instant death G limit to put a ceiling on allowable G. I don't have a problem with that (if that is what they have done). Yes it could be done better but there must be some limit to what you will code as allowable otherwise where do you stop? Researching all of the anecdotal evidence for structural limits as opposed to using the published limits for each aircraft would be just too much effort.
Anyway, this is just my opinion. HTC have their reasons if it is a feature, they will likely fix it if it is a bug. :)
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Casper - Seeing is believing. I'm the one on the left, and that's my name painted under the canopy rail. Funny, you're only the third person in 6 years flying online games to question whether or not I'm a real pilot, and one of those three used his question to get me into the Janes F-15 project as an unpaid consultant.
The photo has been edited because I did not ask the WSO's permission to post his name and photo on the internet, so to be on the safe side I spraypainted over the name and face. Sorry about the retouch quality, I'm not an artist :)
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Very Cool pic eagl :)
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Originally posted by eagl
Casper - Seeing is believing. I'm the one on the left, and that's my name painted under the canopy rail. Funny, you're only the third person in 6 years flying online games to question whether or not I'm a real pilot, and one of those three used his question to get me into the Janes F-15 project as an unpaid consultant.
Salute, eagl!
If you are a real one, hat's off to you. The only reason I have to believe you're lieing is because the Internet makes it very easy to do that. There's an added dimension of artificiality online, I think you know what I mean.
Either way, I hope you DO realize that there's as many physiological effects on the body for G's as there are people. That is, it affects each person differently. Speaking for myself, I can pull an estimated 2.5-3G (about a 65-70 degree bank, holding altitude) for like 2 seconds and I start to see the sparklers (normal category aircraft). It's a very, very strange feeling and I can say that for most people, it would take some getting used to. Even sustained 2G turning in a Cherokee, while it doesn't gray me out or anything like that, is a little tiresome after awhile, just because your arms gain weight out there in front of you on the yolk, and holding your head up takes a little extra effort. I also noticed that the more you do it, the less you notice. I can picture myself blacking out about 4-5G, real easy. Having flown in the neighborhood of 2.5-3G, I personally have a lot of respect for what pilots went through in actual combat, where 3-6G loads (or possibly more) are commonplace.
It's understood that modern fighter aircraft routinely pull sustained 7-9G loads, but in order for pilots to sustain that load, they need to be suited up for the job. Without it, loss of vision followed by loss of conciousness are known effects.
My argument is that the game should black people out AND disable the aircraft's control surfaces until they come to under blackout gravity. And the duration of blackout should increase each time the player blacks himself out on a given mission. This will kill the "miracle turns" you see in the TnB game, and restore TnB to a "thinker's game" once again.
Casper
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Eagl has been around a long time and if you'd looked at his posts, you would have known his reputation and not challenged his veracity. You can drop the qualifiers "If you are a real one..."
And many people here are neither morons, nor lying scumbags. Many of us have never held elected office.:D
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Casper, nothing personal, but its considered real bad form to step into a new community (20 whole posts on the forum?) and start to tell everyone "how it is".
Eagl, is the real deal. I've met him in person, drank a beer with him, and listened to his stories at the past two Con's. He doesn't roadkill.... much ;)
Non-pilots will black out at about 5-6 G's in a matter of seconds. When they come to, they feel woozy for up to an hour.
Wrong. G-tolerance varies from person to person, according to your physical fitness, age, and other factors. Also learning how to do the "grunt" manuever, and keep your abdomen tensed as you fly thru the manuever its important as well.
I'm not a "real" pilot, but a couple of years ago, I got to fly a AT-6 Texan doing aerobatics. And we performed several manuevers up 5 G's for several seconds. I didn't even tunnel vision except for one time I wasn't paying attention, banged my head on the canopy, and was not ready for the manuever (think it was a split S) and I had a slight tunneling of my vision. And yes I have proof if you really want to see it.
Admittedly, the instructor said that I had really good G tolerance for someone who doesn't fly regularly, and that most people would not have handled our flight so well ( I had bet him that he could not make me puke when I got off the airplane, he tried his damndest.... heheheheheheheh).
But don't make assumptions that most people will instantly pass out at 2-3 G's. Hell, even rollercoasters pull sustained 2-3 G's.
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Originally posted by Vermillion
Casper, nothing personal, but its considered real bad form to step into a new community (20 whole posts on the forum?) and start to tell everyone "how it is".
I can pretty much do whatever I want, 20 posts or 20,000 posts.
Originally posted by Vermillion
Eagl, is the real deal. I've met him in person, drank a beer with him, and listened to his stories at the past two Con's. He doesn't roadkill.... much ;)
Give me your address, I'll send you a cookie.
Originally posted by Vermillion
Wrong. G-tolerance varies from person to person, according to your physical fitness, age, and other factors. Also learning how to do the "grunt" manuever, and keep your abdomen tensed as you fly thru the manuever its important as well.
Isn't that what I just said? Here, I'll remind you.
Originally posted by Casper
Either way, I hope you DO realize that there's as many physiological effects on the body for G's as there are people. That is, it affects each person differently.
You can stop putting words into my mouth now.
Originally posted by Vermillion
I'm not a "real" pilot, but a couple of years ago, I got to fly a AT-6 Texan doing aerobatics.
We're up to TWO cookies now.
Originally posted by Vermillion
Admittedly, the instructor said that I had really good G tolerance for someone who doesn't fly regularly, and that most people would not have handled our flight so well ( I had bet him that he could not make me puke when I got off the airplane, he tried his damndest.... heheheheheheheh).
So basically, what you're saying is that an aerobatics flight instructor is saying the same thing I am (minus your putting words into his mouth)? If he says "you have really good G tolerance", and "most people would not have handled the flight so well", isn't he basically saying that "for most people, it would take some getting used to?" That it affects each person differently?
YOU just lost your 2nd cookie, pal!
Originally posted by Vermillion
But don't make assumptions that most people will instantly pass out at 2-3 G's. Hell, even rollercoasters pull sustained 2-3 G's.
That's not what I said, not at any time did I say that. You're so busy making assumptions, you can't even tell the forest from the trees, can you! You *MUST* be a Democratic voter.
What I *DID* say, was that *MY* G tolerance is probably lower than usual, and that *I* would black out at 4 or 5G. I also said that MOST people (on the AVERAGE) are KNOWN to black out in the range of 7-9G in the absence of proper equipment. What I did *NOT* say, was that "most people will instantly pass out at 2-3 G's".
I am a part of this community, and I'm here to stay. Deal.
Casper
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Edited to correct HTML formatting (removed "bold" tags)
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Keep yapping Casper, like the little puppy that you are. Just don't be pissy in six months when the community gives you ZERO respect and basically flames you for every little thing. Because we've seen your type come and go many times. Its nothing new.
*Yawn*
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Originally posted by Vermillion
I'm not a "real" pilot, but a couple of years ago, I got to fly a AT-6 Texan doing aerobatics. And we performed several manuevers up 5 G's for several seconds. I didn't even tunnel vision except for one time I wasn't paying attention, banged my head on the canopy, and was not ready for the manuever (think it was a split S) and I had a slight tunneling of my vision. And yes I have proof if you really want to see it.
Admittedly, the instructor said that I had really good G tolerance for someone who doesn't fly regularly, and that most people would not have handled our flight so well ( I had bet him that he could not make me puke when I got off the airplane, he tried his damndest.... heheheheheheheh).
I was there on the tarmac when Verm did it, too. Afterwards we sat around and watched his video. I still have the tape in the garage (though most of our VHSs are getting tossed in favor of DVD nowadays, so we may not have it much longer).
I've pulled 3Gs on rollercoasters. Reminded me alot of the adrenalin rush I get when dogfighting in a Hellcat.
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Originally posted by Blue Mako
Sorry funked, didn't read down far enough before I replied, see my post above.
Limit load is pretty much as you described. Once you exceed the limit load, damage may occur (which is why checks are carried out if it is ever exceeded).
If the ultimate load is exceeded, however, the aircraft can be expected to fail, not just bend. The materials used in aircraft usually fail soon after starting to deform, that is why you hardly ever see aircraft landing with bent airframes after exceeding the structural limits, they are usually smoking holes soon after reaching ultimate load.
Yeah you are right. I was thinking of a laboratory situation. In practice if you get into the plastic regime, the structure becomes unstable, and stuff breaks.