Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Urchin on December 18, 2002, 03:30:46 PM
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Tiger armor:
Front Turret: 100/8
Front Upper Hull: 100/10
Front Lower Hull: 100/24
Side Turret: 80/0
Side Upper Hull: 80/0
Side Lower Hull: 80/8
Rear Turret: 80/0
Rear Hull: 80/8
Turret Top / Bottom: 25/81-90
Upper Hull Top / Bottom: 25/90
Lower Hull Top / Bottom: 25/90
Gun Mantlet: 100-110/0
37mm Manned ack Armor Penetration(?):
3.7cm FlaK 43 L/89
ammo PzGr18
ammo wieght lbs 1.4
Velocity 2,526'/s
100 meters 35mm penetration
500 meters 28mm
1000 meters 21mm
1500 meters 17mm
If the 37mm manned ack is the same gun as the Ostwinds.... it shouldn't be able to penetrate the Tigers armor at all, much less kill it. At any range and angle, much less from 1,500 yards (which is where I was killed from, give or take a couple hundred yards).
Apparently the Tiger is flawed in some manner, please fix it.
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Those pentration figiures are for a slope of aprox.30 plus degrease, which means aganst the flat plate of the tiger at close range you may indead be able to acheave a pentration( side or rear), why do you thhink HTC neautered the osty.
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Also, it could be that the field acks still have a mixture of HE and AP rounds. HT could have left it like that so the field guns can act as anti-tank artillery, something that is sorely needed at airfields that you can spawn GV's to for an attack.
Leave it as it is IMO.
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If a 37mm is killing a Tiger at anywhere near 1000 yards something is very wrong. For example the 75mm on a Sherman couldn't penetrate any Tiger armor until under 500yards, performance was only 66mm at 500 yards IRRC and Tiger had 80-110mm all around... Again there can be no excuse if a 37mm takes out a tiger at even close to 1000 yards, if it was really that far..
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Hmmmm that is interesting.....I put over 1000 rounds into a Tiger last night to no effect in a manable ack. Only ended up getting blown off the field when he finally realized where the fire was coming from.
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Just put manned 88's at all the fields with ap/he/aa like on the ships. Give the 37's the same choice. We know the 88's should do a number on the Tiger. The 37's might immobilize or damage it w/ap rounds but I don't think kill it at even point blank range IMO.
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If I understand the way sloping works correctly, that would mean against flat plate the penetration would be as follows:
100 meters = 35mm * 1.66 = 58.1 mm
500 meters = 28mm * 1.66 = 46.48 mm
1000 meters = 21mm * 1.66 = 34.86 mm
1500 meters = 17mm * 1.66 = 28.22 mm
I'm not sure if I did that right, but I know I've heard that an angle of 45 degrees halves penetration, so it would make sense to me that 30 degrees is 2/3rds of 45 degrees, so going from 30 degrees to 0 degrees would add about 66% to the penetration.
Still isn't enough to get through the armor anywhere on the Tiger, unless the Tiger is laying on its side or something equally absurd.
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wow,,i never drove one into a base yet too see if it would kill a tiger,,,but it shouldnt!!,,a manned 88mm cannon will be needed for tank killers in bases,,or a old french 75mm atleast<~~great gun:)
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LOL I drove up toward 44..lost turret as some gv's came from far spawn...decided to drive tiger back to friendly area..(LONG ride)..THEN 44 upped..and i wasnt even past that spawn point yet
kept takin hit after hit after hit..engine kept goin..M8 caught up..empied his WHOLE ammo load into me from mebbe 50 feet..STILL i drive..M16 drove THRU me...shot him up w hull gun..after he passed...took a half dozen more hits from panzers..FINALLY someone kilt my engine after mebbe 10 minutes of gettin pinged..Tigers RULE
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thats good,,it will give a reason for people to drive tank buster planes more:D
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Yea, I guess that 37mm manned ack must be 2,000 times better than whatever the poor M-8 is equipped with. Dropped 50 rounds of 37mm into a Tiger from 5 yards dead astern. Every round hit, no damage at all. Eventually got an assist when he got tired and .efluffied.
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The M-8 has a 75 mm howitzer. It's a stubby barrel and the shell has terrible muzzle velocity. It's probably better off as a mobile artillery piece firing HE or shrapnel as opposed to posing as a tank killer.
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Tony, was sighting better penatration figures for the 37mm, or therioising at anyrate. Again this at close range, and aganst the rear or sides. Just because a shell is not big does not mean it is capable of acheaving penatration, look at the figures for the 2.8cm taper Boar AT gun realative to it's boar size for example.
Bellow are the armor figures for the Tiger E, as you can see their is a weak spot that the Field gun could exploit under"optimal" conditations, now this is obviously streaching it a bit and it asumes a few things, like the 37mm field gun is infact the most deadly Varient the Germans produced, the Tiger is parked right next to it and exposing the weak spot and that AH factors things in like Citical hits, all in all a prety far strech.
Hull Front, Upper 102@20°, 100@10°
Hull Front, Lower 62@60°, 100@24°
Hull Sides, Upper 82, 80@0°
Hull Sides, Lower 62, 60@0°
Hull Rear 82@20°, 80@8°
Hull Top 25@90°
Hull Bottom 25@90°
Turret Front 100@0°-11°, 100@8°
mantlet: 100-110@0°
Turret Sides 82, 80@0°
Turret Rear 82, 80@0°
Turret Top 26, 25@81°-90°
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Originally posted by Ecliptik
The M-8 has a 75 mm howitzer. It's a stubby barrel and the shell has terrible muzzle velocity. It's probably better off as a mobile artillery piece firing HE or shrapnel as opposed to posing as a tank killer.
Nooo.... the M-8 has a 37mm CANNON.
The LVT-4 has a 100mm low velocity howitzer, perhaps that is the vehicle you are thinking of.
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What we have here is a little confusion..I think!
M8 US light armored car=37mm main gun
M8 US (HMC) Howitzer Motor Carriage=75mm Howitzer
The LVT(A)-4 was armed with the same 75mm gun which fires the same round as the US 75mm pack howitzer and M8 HMC, the 75mm pack how. cartdrige can all so be fired from a the 75mm gun in the M4 Sherman in a pinch. The M24 light tank used the same shell/cartdrige in its light weight T13E1 75mm gun, this gun by the way was developed for use in the B-25 H bomber.
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M8 AC has 37L53 MA.
Ostwind 3.7cm FlaK 43 wasn't 'neutered', it just doesn't carry anything but HE at present.
FlaK weapons didn't carry alot of PzGr (or any type of AP based round) in general. A few for self defense mainly. FlaKPz carried even fewer because less need - a mobile AA weapon that only operates alongside Pz. units. Not much chance of being caught as the 'only target' of an enemy MBT.
Once crew casualties are modeled, you'll probably see a 10% AP loadout option back on the Ostwind. But they were being used 1000 times more aggressively in the MA than they ever were in real life.
What's really needed is a 'jeep', a Kubelwagen, an Opel 6700, a GMC 2 1/2 ton truck, and 3 or 4 towed weapons (2 of them being AA weapons) and turn the Ostwind into a 50+ perk AFV (it's far more rare than the Pz VIE ever was).
Mike/wulfie
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Originally posted by Urchin
I'm not sure if I did that right, but I know I've heard that an angle of 45 degrees halves penetration...
Actually - it sounds minor but it's not when computing different types of attacks vs. armor plate - 45 degree effective angle of impact doubles effective thickness of armor being impacted.
This means that shots coming from further than 500 meters (maybe further than 800 meters if coming from something like an 75L70, etc.) are automatically going to impact with a few degrees of impact angle added in.
Then you add in elevation difference between firer and target, etc.
The 'double thickness' vs. 'half penetration' mainly applies to big HE attacks vs. well sloped but less thick FH armor plate (Soviet 152 and 122 HE vs. Pz V is a good example of this).
Mike/wulfie
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Well imo it was Neuatered, granted irl it was not used as agresively as it is in the MA but then again the MA aint RL, perhaps an answer to this would be alowing 10% AP to be carried and used by means of selecting it.
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The LVT-4 has a 100mm low velocity howitzer, perhaps that is the vehicle you are thinking of.
Oops!
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I could kill Tiger I in man ack by shooting at his side at 1500 yards range.
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Mitsu if you can then that means either Tiger I is wrong or manned ack is wrong. Send an e-mail to HTC with film and they might fix it if it comes from you..
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Roger.
GRUNHERZ, come to bishops field in Tiger I.
I'll wait for you in man ack. :D
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LOL, I dont use perk vehicles. Plus its much more fun shooting the tail off your Niki... :D
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I only fly C202.
:p
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I was hiding behind a hillside in my tiger and shooting vehicles as they passed into our base. After about the fifteenth kill they got wise to me. Did they come back with tigers to kill me? No they brought ostwinds and they climbed the hill beside me. I heard them coming and tried to back up a bit to raise my gun but the tiger runs in reverse slower then my dead grandmother rolls over. So I end up with three flaks firing at me from less then one hundred yards. I lived about as long as it takes to say oh well. I did not think a flak could hurt a tiger but now I am hearing that even an m16 has killed a tiger.
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Killing a Tiger with Ostwind now makes about as much sense as killing one with handgranades... HTC just cant understand this thick steel armor stuff right can they?
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just before the patch..I walked up to a panzer with a M16...put ALL 4000 rounds into him point-blank....various angles (started 6...moved around to side...assumed front was poor choice) ..tank wouldnt die--dead in water, of course. Went back..got a M8..kilt him 1 shot. (Apparently he was taking a protracted dump or somethin?)
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Something tells me HTC dont want to have the tiger be able to ignore base defences.(which is fair enough) but cant we hav a realistic weapon to stop them? a british 6 pounder or something?
They seem to not want to model the tiger as its armour figures suggest unless it is indeed a bug.
Instead of us gettiing the feeling of being impervious to all but either the closest of shots or rear quarter shots in the tiger we now have a tank which has exceedingly slow traverse and can have m16's and ostwinds running rings around it firing until we go POP :).
I really looked forward to the tiger as I have books on it, and some of the stories about its strength are amazing to read.Unfortunately it seems we have again got a problem with the whole armoured damage model.
HTC PLEASE buy some of those books on the tiger and read about how durable they were.They have evidence of tigers being hit loads of times with NO effect. PLEASE can we have this reflected in AH.(i mean ,M16s killing tigers????????? wtf is that all about??:D)
NO M16 or ostwind driver would have even contemplated attacking such a tank and theres no way they should be able to do it in AH. Please change things, this is really ruining what i think is one of the best additions to AH so far!
If im atacking a tiger in a panzer I wouldnt expect to kill it until its WELL within 1000 yards.
go to this webpage( http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz3.htm ) and scroll down halfway to the yellow chart on armour penetration of various guns.
A russian(Soviet 76.2mm F-34 L/41.5) tank could kill a tiger if it hit the hull armour ONLY within 500 meters!
A sherman(American 75mm M3 L/37.5) COULD NOT even at 500m!
The German (75mm KwK 40 L/48) could penetrate 'just' at 1000m
so how on earth is a 50 calibre machine gun on a M16 doing it?
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I was in a manned ack today shooting a Tiger. The Tiger was D709 away and not moving. I put ~1000 rounds into him, with hit sprites showing on every one and didn't even get an assist when somone else dropped an egg on him and killed him.