Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Terrain Editor => Topic started by: Voss on December 19, 2002, 03:19:47 AM
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I am making a new Cripes A'Mighty skin (with apologies to Superfly). I decided I needed a really detailed model to work with and I just happen to have a nice P51D started. Here it was in the very beginning (see attached). I am going to increase the polygon count by a factor of ten and render in Pov-Ray, which should eliminate the over-enhanced edges you see in both images (another post to follow).
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This is the completed work. The details will help to make a much more detailed skin with even more realism, but how it ends up looking in AH has yet to be determined. From my work on gauges I expect spectacular results.
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Looks very nice....but, why?
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Looks good Voss!
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I didnt know you could embed new models in the game too!!
how is that done?
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You can't and that's not the intention here.
You could just build a plastic model, take photographs of it, and then paste the images together to form a new skin. I'm doing it this way instead. The idea being that I should get photorealistic effects and accuracy that would be extremely difficult to attain with a paint program.
Plus I can reuse the models. :D
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VERY GOOD!
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You didn't deserve that off the cuff remark so I'll refrase it.
POV ray doesn't offer anything for AH. Unless your 3d Modeling can be imported into AH. But I think thats Superfly's job. It's not just about 3d'ing airplanes, but sacrificing some details for lower Poly counts to make the game playable to all. I'm sure you know this. You tried in the past to Convert Me and others into using RayPOV before. I can't see what the program has to offer people making maps for AH. If you can enlighten me HOW this program will help people making maps , I'm all ears.
NUTTZ
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Somebody has either hijacked your handle, learned your password, or the fine balance of sanity has slipped from your grasp. I'm betting on foul play. and I hope they release the hostages without further incident.
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This is why you fail to use Pov-Ray, Nuttz. You don't understand it, or how it can come to make far better textures and skins than a mere paint program. Sure, it's SuperFly's job at HTC. We were given a skin editor to play with though. Are you saying that if a user makes a fantastic skin that it will be ignored? It sure sounds like it.
No, the above images have not seen Pov-Ray yet. Pov-Ray will make the base skins for which I will do color reduction and pasting to AH's format. Pov-Ray will produce a great starting place.
Map making? I'm not making a map here. This is where I am starting in the creation of a new skin. However, I told you in the past that Pov-Ray can make height-fields very easily. Height-fields are very easily controlled and manipulated if correctly coded. Further, they will be created directly into bitmap data, or a cunning programmer could create a custom version that outputs directly into the AH map format. Pov-Ray is open source. HT gave us the tools and has made this really very easy. Anyone that has just a few coding skills could save a great deal of time by using Pov-Ray.
I really thought you would have more insight then you do.
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I use Corel draw in my everyday use, It suits my needs being vector based. Bundled with CorelPaint, It's a program that I prefer. It does not make me ignorant to other programs that are used by others, nor am i saying Corel IS the greatest program out there. I'll admit i'm not well versed in RayPOV, But that is not my point. My point being "IF" it is a great program and can run circles around most paint and 3d programs, WHY haven't we've seen ANYTHING in AH from rayPOV, either 3d or textures For 3 years the Terrain Editor has been around? I'm not saying that you Can't make great textures In rayPOV, nor did i say "fantastic" skins should be Ignored. But it has been 3 years now and sofar i see nothing.
NUTTZ
Originally posted by Voss
This is why you fail to use Pov-Ray, Nuttz. You don't understand it, or how it can come to make far better textures and skins than a mere paint program. Sure, it's SuperFly's job at HTC. We were given a skin editor to play with though. Are you saying that if a user makes a fantastic skin that it will be ignored? It sure sounds like it.
No, the above images have not seen Pov-Ray yet. Pov-Ray will make the base skins for which I will do color reduction and pasting to AH's format. Pov-Ray will produce a great starting place.
Map making? I'm not making a map here. This is where I am starting in the creation of a new skin. However, I told you in the past that Pov-Ray can make height-fields very easily. Height-fields are very easily controlled and manipulated if correctly coded. Further, they will be created directly into bitmap data, or a cunning programmer could create a custom version that outputs directly into the AH map format. Pov-Ray is open source. HT gave us the tools and has made this really very easy. Anyone that has just a few coding skills could save a great deal of time by using Pov-Ray.
I really thought you would have more insight then you do.
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Case in point, your explanation on tiling. How long does it take you to go through those steps? Wouldn't it be much easier just to open up Pov-Ray, edit one filename in the code listing to follow, and then render to a 256x256 image?
Change "Nuttz.bmp" to what ever image you are trying to tile. Yes, you still have to reduce the color count.
#version 3.1;
global_settings { max_trace_level 75 assumed_gamma 1.5 ambient_light 0
radiosity { brightness 1 count 300 distance_maximum 1 error_bound 1
gray_threshold .5 low_error_factor 1 minimum_reuse 1 nearest_count 1
recursion_limit 1 } }
#include "Colors.inc"
#declare TilePigment = pigment { image_map { sys "Nuttz.bmp" } frequency 1.2 phase 0 lambda 2 omega .5 turbulence 1.67 }
light_source { <-500,500,-350> color rgb 5 } //5*<.65,.46,.1> }
#ifndef (TilePigment)
#warning "No TilePigment specified. Pigment not tiled.\n"
#else
#ifndef (TileSize) #declare _TX_size = <1, 1, 1>
#else #declare _TX_size = TileSize * <1, 1, 1> #end
#declare _TX_xpigment = pigment {gradient x pigment_map {
[0 TilePigment scale <1 / _TX_size.x, 1, 1>]
[1 TilePigment scale <1 / _TX_size.x, 1, 1> translate x]}}
plane {z, 0 pigment {gradient y pigment_map {
[0 _TX_xpigment scale <1, 1 / _TX_size.y, 1>]
[1 _TX_xpigment scale <1, 1 / _TX_size.y, 1> translate y]}}
finish {ambient .45}}
camera {location <.5, .5, -1> look_at <.5, .5, 0> orthographic up y right x}
#end
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My explaination on tiling seams drawn out, but it takes anywhere from 1-10 minutes to complete the whole process. The 10 minute mark is cloning over the Seam and getting something your happy with.
NUTTZ
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And it takes how long to retype a filename and then ten seconds (not even) for it to render? :)
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Why should you care what someone is doing, how they do it, and what they use to do it?
Does it effect you?
Some people, like you, will like to do stuff the old way, manualy making textures. Others, like Voss, will like to use programs to do what they want.
Although God knows how this thing that Voss is doing is going to be used in AH, and if he's wasting his time, so be it, he's wasting his OWN time, not yours.
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Voss I'm curious why does it seems the panels on that mustang model are bulging out at the center? Is that a new graphic that shows it blowing out after a 30mm hit? :D
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I might try...
using the model to give depth to my plane skin. that way I wouldnt have to set lighting and shading effect. Then my 2d skin might have depth , so when I wrap it on my AH model, it would look cooler..
Voss.. POVRAY ?!?! is this software or 3d concept ?!?!
whats the learning curb?
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Me and Voss have a longtime Love/hate relationship. I know of many art programs out on the market, and While I prefer one, someone else prefers another. This I have no problem with. If you do a search you will see I am not trying or have tried to convert Voss over to Corel, but the opposite. My point being I can't see how rayPOV can be used with the TE. And IF it can.... show me how it can be adapted to make seamless lifelike tiles. All i saw sofar was somekind of typed code. What I would really like to see is a tile set made from RayPOV. Now If Voss can post some pics with tiles make from the program and WOWWED me, then I would probably put the program back on my computer and start learning it. AND even ask for his help.
I understand WHAT Voss is trying to do, by making a 3d model in rayPOV then skinning it and cutting and pasting the .BMP skin onto AH template. But from MPOV, THIS would take MUCH longer than a traditional art program. If He IS wasting his time it's no skin off my back. Just a difference of agreement between two artist.
BTW, I have tried RayPOV, and it can with the click of a button make the tile seamless on all edges, BUT it comes with a price. It changed the artwork to an unreconizable Picasso style collauge of colors.
NUTTZ
Originally posted by BenDover
Why should you care what someone is doing, how they do it, and what they use to do it?
Does it effect you?
Some people, like you, will like to do stuff the old way, manualy making textures. Others, like Voss, will like to use programs to do what they want.
Although God knows how this thing that Voss is doing is going to be used in AH, and if he's wasting his time, so be it, he's wasting his OWN time, not yours.
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Wrong again Nuttz. The above image was produced in TrueSpace, not Pov-Ray (you haven't gotten the name right yet, as a sign of disrespect I note). Pov-Ray is not a modelling program as you know it. It is a scripted renderer. There is no point and click as you have to write all the routines by hand (or use supported include files).
Nuttz you have to learn to control the variables in the source I posted, or they will do what as you stated and distort your image. I create tiles without using an image. In fact, to a true Pov artist image-maps are an insult.
Grunherz, I note your disrespect too. No, Truespace allows for environmental mapping of textures to individual components of a model (in this case panels) and I purposely enhanced the edges with the reflectivity model, but the smoothing operation prior to the final rendering enhances the effect (yuck). In short, TrueSpace's renderer sucks compared to Pov-Ray.
Doody, I fly every day and still find time to use Pov-Ray. I have spent over ten years learning Pov-Ray, but because it has grown and continues to grow I have yet to master it all. You can check into it at http://www.povray.org and while you are there check out several of the scenes by other artists. Specifically, "Strike At Pearl" or any of the many images you can see at zazzle.com
Pov-Ray is freeware with the source freely available and contributing artists/programmers make frequent and helpful posts on the newsgroup (news.povray.org).
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Originally posted by NUTTZ
...show me how it can be adapted to make seamless lifelike tiles...
If you haven't noticed, he is using the program to skin AIRPLANES, not TILES.
Originally posted by NUTTZ
...All i saw sofar was somekind of typed code...
NUTTZ
And the beautiful pictures of his work in the first two posts
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No, Truespace allows for environmental mapping of textures to individual components of a model
Voss: Your making textures for your POV model so you can then make some different textures for AH? Im confused. Why not make them directly for AH instead.
HiTech
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nice work Voss, u try to create new render engine for game?
Who not use scheme 3d model +skin+uv mapping but replaced by script? Or u do thiss only for funn?
/forgivme my english is not good enugh, so somtimes i not catch/
ramzey
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Yes HT. Except with Pov a texture is like a C program statement. Shiny steel for instance would be something like:
texture {
pigment { color rgb .325 }
finish { ambient 0 diffuse .275 reflection { .64,.95 } phong 1 phong_size 180 specular 5 roughness .01 metallic }
normal { granite -.1 scale .025 } }
I might have as many as 200 textures on a single wing, as they add up quickly (each individual stencil, panel, and perhaps even spot weld is a separate texture).
This wouldn't be very useful for AH, but once rendered to a model (from several different views) you will have enough to build a skin from. I go to the trouble of building a 3D model directly over some high resolution 3-views of the original aircraft, so the finished product will be as accurate as possible before adaption to AH.
It's more involved and some may consider it a waste of time, but I have seen the result in other games and I know it is worth it. It's a hobby I have been doing for over ten years now. :)