Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: takeda on December 20, 2002, 03:29:39 AM
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http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20021219/wl_nm/attack_immigration_dc_4
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2589317.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2589317.stm)
You can start justifying this, but this seems too broad and smells fishy, very fishy.
In Germany they first came for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me -
and by that time no one was left to speak up.
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Stirs emotions but fails the common sense test.
...
first came for the Child Killers,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Child Killer.
Then they came for the Child Rapists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Child Rapists.
Then they came for the Male Rapists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Male Rapist.
Then they came for the Female Rapists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Female Rapist.
-----------------------------------------------
The thing is, we all need to develop a sense of right and wrong in childhood with a help from our parents.
Bad --- my bellybutton hurts a lot
Good -- Mommy and Daddy are smiling
Call me Meyer, but my parent's approval/smile or their frown was the most significant determinant of how I chose to lead my life.
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So, your common sense is...
Communists = Child Killers
Jews = Child Rapists
Trade Unionists = Male Rapists
Catholics = Female Rapists
Other than that.... I cannot see your point
:confused:
The fact is that there are mass roundups of people to the point of overloading the prison system based on questionable reasons. You can choose ignoring it now just because they are muslim (and even Jew as some reports say) and you aren't, but someone has to get the "itoldyouso" perkies just in case they end up grabbing you.
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I dont like this! Calling up people to register then arresting them does not sit well with me.
However it is perfectly legal if those actually arrested were wanted for crimes, had overstayed their visas or were to be deported anyway - certainly other such lures, like a fake sweepstakes collections meeting, were used to round up hundreds of outstanding warrants in the past. If you are wanted for a crime and you voluntarily avail yourself to the police they will arrest you.
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Hows this one then:
First they came for the Moslem terrorists.
-And I spoke up because I felt it was wrong with ethnical profiling.
Then they tried to come for the terrorists whose ethnicity shall not be mentioned.
-And I spoke up because the military, police and the intelligence agencies are all racists and they have too much power anyway, and they must be kept on a short leech and besides, the rights of the individual is far far more important than national security.
Then they tried to warn us for the terrorists since they no longer were allowed to try to stop them.
-And I sued their tulips off for discrimination. They should be out there doing important stuff like fighting people who wants their kids to be allowed to say the Lords prayer in school.
Then the Moslem terrorists came for all of us
-And there were no one left to protect us from them.
But at least I'm PC...and thats what matters.
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Originally posted by takeda
So, your common sense is...
Communists = Child Killers
Jews = Child Rapists
Trade Unionists = Male Rapists
Catholics = Female Rapists
Other than that.... I cannot see your point
:confused:
The fact is that there are mass roundups of people to the point of overloading the prison system based on questionable reasons. You can choose ignoring it now just because they are muslim (and even Jew as some reports say) and you aren't, but someone has to get the "itoldyouso" perkies just in case they end up grabbing you.
Say what????? (not to say "are you nuts'?). Breath in... breath out...
My point was (and is) that just because someone feels persecuted, does not make it so.
All criminals feel "persecuted" no doubt.
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Of course I would feel prosecuted if I was called to register just based on my ethnicity, complied, and then was detained in extremely poor living conditions.
So, if it just an inmigration affair, why not rounding up Eastern of European illegal aliens?, you can bet there are lots of them with void visas and warrants.
If it is a War on Terror affair? Why not saudis, why iranians who can be jew or refugees form the iranian revolution?
So, you are eager to approve the equation
(muslim-middle eastern-arab-whatever) + expired visa=terrorist
go ahead just don't cry when they grab you for something else and no one gives a damn (firearms mandatory registration anyone? c'mon everybody knows those gun nuts are a bunch of paranoid militia wackos...)
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What did these muslems do wrong? Hopefully something, because if not, it wont be long till storm troopers are kicking down OUR doors. It will be easy too, because the democrats will make sure no one has any guns.
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"c'mon everybody knows those gun nuts are a bunch of paranoid militia wackos"
Exactly, just like those free speech nuts....
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INS spokesman Arcaute said those arrested had violated immigration laws, overstayed their visas, or were wanted for crimes.
The whole "register" thing may be a bit much but these guys are not citizens and they only here if they agree to comply with the laws and regulations set by our government. These arent "interment" camps. These people were arrested for some violation of us immigration laws.
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Yes, but if the aim of the registration was to keep track of these gents and to point those avoiding the register as potentially dangerous. Isn't a f***in' moronic stupid thing to make sure no one is going to show up next time no matter how innocent they are?
Let's say, for example , if you were a perfectly innocent Syrian construction worker who is waiting to get his papers straightened because of the incompetence of the paper pushers at the very same INS, would you turn yourself in tomorrow after seeing all this?
and to those thinking "another euro america basher"... I love your country, perhaps even more than those who are trying so hard to flush it down the toilet.
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Originally posted by takeda
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20021219/wl_nm/attack_immigration_dc_4
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2589317.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2589317.stm)
You can start justifying this, but this seems too broad and smells fishy, very fishy.
In Germany they first came for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me -
and by that time no one was left to speak up.
Glass houses ?
http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/07/spainlaw0705.htm
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Originally posted by takeda
[B
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
[/B]
speaking of......
BARCELONA, Spain -- February 4, 2001
Thousands of people have marched through the city of Barcelona in protest at a tough new immigration law.
The new law, which took effect last month, threatens illegal immigrants with immediate expulsion. It also bans them from joining unions and denies them housing aid and schooling for their children.
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Originally posted by takeda
and to those thinking "another euro america basher"... I love your country, perhaps even more than those who are trying so hard to flush it down the toilet.
Nothing personal, but it does seem rather popular now days to point out the warts on Americas butt. Normaly we dont mind too much, but it is starting to get tiresome. Please try not to take this the wrong way, but as you can tell by the two links I have posted Spain is not exactly squeaky clean in the imigration area.
BTW we love your country too :)
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forget it
lazs
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"Anyways... all I know is that the US (and the World for that matter) seemed like a much safer place before Bush jr. came to power."
Yes especially after he started that war on 9/11/2001.. Idiot!
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Originally posted by GScholz
Anyways... all I know is that the US (and the World for that matter) seemed like a much safer place before Bush jr. came to power.
Safe for who? Terrorist hiding in cells inside your country? Safe for Dictators who torture and murder their own citizens? Safe for Radicalized Islamist (taliban) who feel little girls don't deserve a education and that women should be brutalized?
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"INS spokesman Arcaute said those arrested had violated immigration laws, overstayed their visas, or were wanted for crimes."
......so cry me a river.
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takeda you dont get it.
If your sponsor dies, you papers expire, or you are a wanted criminal else where in the world or generally in our country illegally and get caught then so what. You here against the laws set by our government and you are allowed a hearing.
You can sing the sob song then.
You make it sound like all arabs and or muslims are being rounded up put on cattle car and shipped out. These are not citizens they are "guests" and our government has set rules in place that they must follow.
We intern Haitians, look at the history of the Cubans etc.......... We have right to decide how to regulate our borders. These folks arent tortured, beaten, or sent to labor camps. They are detained because they have in someway violated the conditions they agreed to upon entry into our country. They can agree to be deported or wait until for a hearing. Most immigrants detained in this fashion dont spend all their time detained. I suspect after sorting through everything most will be released and told to come back for a hearing. I bet very few get deported.
Few if any of them will automatically get shipped back. As for them being treated as "criminals" well they are since they in some someway did not comply with our laws.
I agree this "registration" seems a bit extreme because you would expect the INS to already have this information.
Equating our ins policy to Nazi Germany is huge diddlying leap.
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Originally posted by takeda
(muslim-middle eastern-arab-whatever) + expired visa=terrorist
If I fail to renew my drivers license, and I'm pulled over by a police officer, I am either A)Arrested
B)Lose my automobile and ticketed.
Its called "Law". If we don't have "Laws" we have chaos.
If your visa expires,YOU let it expire without taking care of it... you've broken the law.
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more paranoia from the paranoid
follow the rules or pay the price, just like the rest of us LAW ABIDING types do
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The real problem is our lax enforcement of immigration laws over the last 20 years or so. It's too late to do anything about it, there are around 13 million people roaming the country freely who are here illegally. This dragnet will just get some of the ones from the mid-east out of the way, so that there are fewer potential suspects for the feds to track. Any mid-easterner who is here legally has nothing to worry about. This looks like a draconian roundup, but the problem only exists because of decades of loose enforcement of laws.
ra
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The head of the southern California chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union (news - web sites) compared the arrests to the internment of Japanese Americans in camps during the Second World War.
"I think it is shocking what is happening. It is reminiscent of what happened in the past with the internment of Japanese Americans. We are getting a lot of telephone calls from people. We are hearing that people went down wanting to cooperate and then they were detained," said Ramona Ripston, the ACLU's executive director.
One of the few times I've actually agreed with the ACLU. Then again, we've been doing the same thing to Mexicans for years.
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Every single solitary person involved in the bombing was of a certain race. So it must be OK to round up everyone of that particular race and subject them to internment and a complete background check.
Oh wait... I was talking about Pearl Harbor.
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Haven't ya heard? All our problems can be solved if we all just convert to Islam. Women been gettin' to uppity lately anyhow. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Every single solitary person involved in the bombing was of a certain race. So it must be OK to round up everyone of that particular race and subject them to internment and a complete background check.
Oh wait... I was talking about Pearl Harbor.
They say hindsight is 20/20. I don't think that's true. It's too easy to second guess others from the perceived saftey of your easy chair.
Or maybe you'd have preferred the US to mind it's own business and stayed out of WWII? What would the world be like today if Axis forces had won?
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Originally posted by AKIron
They say hindsight is 20/20. I don't think that's true. It's too easy to second guess others from the perceived saftey of your easy chair.
Or maybe you'd have preferred the US to mind it's own business and stayed out of WWII? What would the world be like today if Axis forces had won?
Almost the same :)
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Originally posted by Naso
Almost the same :)
I don't think so. To start, there wouldn't be problems in the middle east revolving around Israel, 'casue there wouldn't be an Israel. Trent Lott wouldn't be stepping down for racist remarks because integration never would have occured. There wouldn't have been a Korean or Vietnam war over communism 'cause communism would have died then. So many others, hard to see the future is, the dark side clouds everything. ;)
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"Every single solitary person involved in the bombing was of a certain race. So it must be OK to round up everyone of that particular race and subject them to internment and a complete background check."
How many old Muslim women are in jail? Infants? Old men? You do know the vast majority of those arrested, who were themselves a minory of those registered are to be released within a day. You know that right?
Yep its just like Auschwitz!
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Originally posted by AKIron
They say hindsight is 20/20. I don't think that's true. It's too easy to second guess others from the perceived saftey of your easy chair.
Or maybe you'd have preferred the US to mind it's own business and stayed out of WWII? What would the world be like today if Axis forces had won?
You don't think what is true? I think the post I wrote and the post you read were two different languages or something.
My point was...
If you think the treatment of Japanese Americans was wrong during WW2 then you should be vigilant about repeating the same mistake again.
Where did you get the "mind our own business" idea?
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Midnight,
I don't think hindsight is 20/20. Thought that was clear.
Specifically, I don't think that your hindsight is 20/20. My point is that it is easy for you to judge the actions of our government as wrong from the comfort of relative peacetime. Typical leftist position imo.
I'm not saying the interment of Japanese heritage Americans was right. I am saying that you are too quick to condemn without the experience of your survival being on the line.
I'll probably care less what you think should things go to hell and we again wind up in a fight for our survival. You're pretty damn ignorant if you think that can't happen.
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Originally posted by takeda
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20021219/wl_nm/attack_immigration_dc_4
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2589317.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2589317.stm)
You can start justifying this, but this seems too broad and smells fishy, very fishy.
NEWS FLASH: POLICE ARREST CRIMINALS
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Attention foreigners: Very simple way to avoid this "persecution".
Don't come to my country and break the law.
Thank you, drive through.
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Funked why are you such a racist? :confused:
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SILENCE, INFERIOR CROATIAN VERMIN!
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Polacks are mean, hopefully Bush will make like Hitler and round up all of you next... :D
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Bush hates all foreigners.
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Just like Hitler!
Hey I think were on to something, lets make a website telling the world about this and then run off and hide from Ashcroft in Sweden and go on left wing talkshows!
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OMG!!!!
AH Player GRUNHERZ thinks Bush is like Hitler!!!!!
Merry Christmas :p
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Originally posted by funkedup
SILENCE, INFERIOR CROATIAN VERMIN!
ROTFLOL!
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Well watermelon MT even I cant resist the persuasive nature of your arguments...
Who else is going to Sweden? :D
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First no one is "rounded up". Theres no trucks driving around knocking muslim looking people on the head dragging umm off to camps.
The no government order saying that alll muslims report to camps.
Immigrants from certain countries were told to comply with new immigration regulations (which are redundent as this info should be on file already). When they went to to comply with the new regulation they were checked to see that they were complete compliance with existing law. Those that werent were detained. Most will get a hearing and many will be released while waiting to get that hearing.
These arent citizens and our government has set conditions that they must meet to stay here.
To compare what the INS is doing now to the internment of Japanese or to nazi germany is rediculous.
Theres all sorts of immigrant activist groups and Arab/Muslim groups that will be there as advocates. If you are so incensed by this then write these groups a fat check so they can get some immigration lawyers in there to help these people.
The whole registration is pretty rediculous in the 1st place. The INS should have all this info to begin with. Its more likely then not that the INS after being beat up since 911 decided to use this registration as opportunity to crack down and show they are capable of doing their jobs. Is it unfair or unjust? No, because these people are in violation of the law. Are other ethnic groups getting away with anything? well maybe, but the answer is not to turn the other check on another group but to go after all who violate the current law.
What should be disturbing to begin with is the number of those arrested, not because because their muslim/arab, but because it seems the INS has been asleep.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Well watermelon MT even I cant resist the persuasive nature of your arguments...
Who else is going to Sweden? :D
We've got quite enough immigrants from former Yugoslavia thankyouverymuch. But you could try Denmark.
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Originally posted by Wotan
Immigrants from certain countries were told to comply with new immigration regulations (which are redundent as this info should be on file already). When they went to to comply with the new regulation they were checked to see that they were complete compliance with existing law. Those that werent were detained. Most will get a hearing and many will be released while waiting to get that hearing.
Beautiful.
Very smart.
When the cat has nothing to do he licks his balls.
From those who'll be released awaiting for the hearing, who do you expect to actually come for it? Something inside me tells me that terrorists will not be waiting for trial.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
We've got quite enough immigrants from former Yugoslavia thankyouverymuch. But you could try Denmark.
When Denmark will get an evidence that you are a terrorist - it will just release you and send you to the UK, where you'll be released by request of some human rights looneys.
Joining terrorist organisations helps you to see the world without any expences.
Denmark is also a great place for congresses of terrorist organisations. They will give you good press if you'll say something like you are preparing terrorist attacks against nuclear power stations.
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Its not hearing to see whos terrorist.....Those who are wanted or are suspected will get detained.
Those who get release are those who are missing documents or over stayed visa / lost a job / sponsor. Or some minor immigration violation.
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Originally posted by Boroda
When Denmark will get an evidence that you are a terrorist - it will just release you and send you to the UK, where you'll be released by request of some human rights looneys.
Joining terrorist organisations helps you to see the world without any expences.
Denmark is also a great place for congresses of terrorist organisations. They will give you good press if you'll say something like you are preparing terrorist attacks against nuclear power stations.
To tell you the truth Boroda, I dont understand why you didnt just send in the Spetznaz (or Alpha or whatever they're called these days) and snatch that damn Chechen terrorist from the Danes. I mean if a nation allows a terrorist organization to have some weird fu**ing "world congress" in its capital, that nation will probably not extradite the terrorists no matter what kind of evidence you present.
You should have gone in and grabbed him.
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Sorry, didn't read carefull enough :(
The whole registration is pretty rediculous in the 1st place. The INS should have all this info to begin with. Its more likely then not that the INS after being beat up since 911 decided to use this registration as opportunity to crack down and show they are capable of doing their jobs. Is it unfair or unjust? No, because these people are in violation of the law. Are other ethnic groups getting away with anything? well maybe, but the answer is not to turn the other check on another group but to go after all who violate the current law.
Absolutely the same thing here. After the Nord-Ost terrorist attack our beloved Militia started to check any "black" person in the street. All they have done was sending some poor illegal Uzbek workers out of Moscow, while any terrorist will get any registration without any problem.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
To tell you the truth Boroda, I dont understand why you didnt just send in the Spetznaz (or Alpha or whatever they're called these days) and snatch that damn Chechen terrorist from the Danes. I mean if a nation allows a terrorist organization to have some weird fu**ing "world congress" in its capital, that nation will probably not extradite the terrorists no matter what kind of evidence you present.
You should have gone in and grabbed him.
Agreed...
You know, we are trying to look "civilized" like Euros... And Denmark is a NATO member, and NATO proves to still be an agressive block directed against Russia. And we will get very bad publicity for such actions, especially in human-rights anxious Western countries.
Too sad :(
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In Germany they first came for the Communists,
German rank and file communists joined nazis because they share the same socialist ideology.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
Nazis were trade-unionists, just opposing previously-entrenched trade-union domination. Rank and file trade-unionists joined nazis as well since they share the same socialist ideology.
Then they came for the Jews,
Come on, they needed some negative issue to unite the nation around in order to build the socialist state more effectively. You don't really expect anyone to stand up for the jews - the nazi's would not have selected them as a target otherwise.
Then they came for the Catholics,
That's plain ridiculous. You cannot build a socialist state and have divided loyalties. Can's have a person pretending to be a patriot germen obeying a guy in Vatican.
There are large muslim communities here in Brooklyn. Nobody bothers them.
Police does not really come for "muslims" or "blacks" - they come for criminals or violators of immigration laws.
miko
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Originally posted by Hortlund
NEWS FLASH: POLICE ARREST CRIMINALS
BRAVO!!! HORTLAND FOR PRESIDENT!!
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
ROTFLOL!
You must have read that imagining the voice of Col. Klink, as I intended it. :)
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When the cat has nothing to do he licks his balls.
Boroda
No, a cat licks his balls because he can. Didn't those Soviet schools teach you anything? :)
Charon
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Hum, no fleas on his ballz then huh, thats a step forward in evolution.
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Boroda, if your government had provided evidence, you'd have him in your hands. All the Russians did was make allegations and amde us lock up a man just to not piss you guys off.
We bent over backwards there, but don't think Russians can decide to put our democratic system on hold just because it doesn't like some of the groups that have conferences here.
We've been more than helpful. All because of a future big Russian market for our products. At the moment, Russia isn't that important economically to us, so we really DID do you a favour just by locking him up and hearing the 'evidence', which was just allegations.
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Originally posted by takeda
[You can start justifying this, but this seems too broad and smells fishy, very fishy.
what'd i do?