Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: LePaul on December 20, 2002, 10:10:40 AM
-
These suckers seem to take more ordinance than a CV to kill. I went in on one just after a Stuka put a 1800kb bomb on his nose. I was in a P38 and put 2 1k bombs and 10 rockets on him....and that lil "Timex" kept on ticking.
Also, is the pintel gun tracerless? I'm hearing pings but not seeing anything.
I tried the *mighty* IL-2 tank killer and was swatted out of the sky at 1.2k out by machine gun fire. :mad: Just, um, what kinda tanks can our IL-2 kill?
So what's it take to kill em :)
-
2 1000 pounders right in his turret...and boom went the Tiger:eek:
-
Originally posted by LePaul
So what's it take to kill em :)
the new GV due out in 1.12
Little Black Sambo (http://www.sterlingtimes.co.uk/sambo.htm)
:)
-
Eagler,
Are you really Trent Lott??:D
-
Very interesting stories of how real life Tigers were brought down.
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arena/5096/upgtiger.htm
(I managed to kill a Tiger with a M8 in AH in a similar manner)
If you like tiger Tank photos - this is the link for you:
http://www.tiger-tank.com/index.html
-
A 30+ Goon raid on any enemy field :D
-
got one with a single 1000 pounder
-
Originally posted by F4UDOA
Eagler,
Are you really Trent Lott??:D
Can't be, maybe some kind of Byrd though :)
-
I lost 3 of the SOB's last night, so they can be killed.
Each was to an aircraft (or multiple aircraft) attacking.
The first, I lost my engine to someone when they hit me and the VH. Unfortunately, I was moving fast enough that by the time I stopped, I was outside of the spawn point.
After waiting 10 minutes for someone to bring supplies, I was killed by an unknown source.
The second, I lost a tread to a bomb, the other tread to a couple of rockets, and then spent 30 minutes pleading for someone to come resuply me. Finally got taken out by a swarm of other panzers.
The third was a one hit kill by someone (I assume a plane since there were no visible tanks). Musta landed the bomb on top of me.
Ouch out.
-
A direct hit with a bomb or another Tiger. Or... a panzer if the tiger driver has his head up his kazoo.
I've downed 4 fighters with a tiger this tour, 3 in one sortie. I've only hit 2 of them with the MG... none of which did much damage. I am amazed at how many people simply auger in next to them.
AKDejaVu
-
Also, is the pintel gun tracerless? I'm hearing pings but not seeing anything.
Tracers on any vehicle guns other than the heavy cannons (75mm, 88mm) are optional. You can disable them by checking the no-tracers box in the flight setup.
-
Originally posted by AKDejaVu
I am amazed at how many people simply auger in next to them.
You don't watch you fellow bishs attacking airfields, do you? ;)
-
1800 kg is about 4000lbs. A near miss should throw the Tiger 30ft in the air. :)
Camo
-
I had the same thing happen to me..
I, in a stuka dropped a 1000kg (@2200lbs!) on a tiger and it didnt even lose its mgs! it kept firing both shells and the top mg.
I then dropped 2x 250kgs (@2x550lbs) and even saw one of the bombs strike with a hit flash!
again no effect it seemed.
Either theres a bug or this is how the tigers armour is>
I must say I do want the Tiger to be formidable, and very good at stopping AP shells.But what i dont want is this totally unrealistic survivability in huge HE explosions.
If you ever saw the films of the Tigers which were bombed in Normandy, you would know these tanks were 'blown into the air like matchboxes' (quote from a german POW who witnessed it)
Well i think a 1000lber (or even a 500lber?) would do just that to Tanks. They should at least take massive damage to tracks or the gun right? if not blown over and totally destroyed?
Would it be possible to make tigers more vulnerable to large bombs without reducing its durability to AP shells fired from vehicles?
I dont want to drive a supertank in AH, just one that is accurate to the real world physics.ie it gets hit by a large bomb and its all over!. Although, i still want to have a few 75mms bounce off my turret :D
so is it a bug or the DM?
-
Stupid Question: What's it take to kill a Tiger?
A 'Tiger Gun'
-
The US Army planned on taking 5 shermans to kill a tiger.
But a well sighted 6pdr could do it...As the brits proved many times.
-
Originally posted by AKDejaVu
A direct hit with a bomb or another Tiger. Or... a panzer if the tiger driver has his head up his kazoo.
Doesn't have to have his head up his wazoo; they just have to be slow. I popped a Tiger with a single shot from a PzKpfw IV's gun at 2800 yards (well, four shots -- three ranging and one hit). You just have to either get in close enough that you can punch through his front/side/rear armor, or stay far enough away that your rounds are dropping in on his deck armor. If you've got a good enough eye to be able to get hits at 2500 yards or more, you can get kills -- but if you let him keep closing, he's going to close off the shot angle and render himself immune to your gun as long as he stays outside your direct-shot kill range.
-
Originally posted by Pongo
The US Army planned on taking 5 shermans to kill a tiger.
But a well sighted 6pdr could do it...As the brits proved many times.
5 Shermans would never be enough to take out a Tiger. On the Eastern front the Tiger enjoyed a K/D well beyond 10/1 against the T34. The T34 is a far better tank than the M4.
-
"The US Army planned on taking 5 shermans to kill a tiger.
But a well sighted 6pdr could do it...As the brits proved many times."
I don't know about 'many times'. In fact, I don't think I've ever read of an account where a 6 Pdr. AT or MBT MA 'killed' a Pz VIE. The British usually dropped a Galaxy worth of 25 Pdr. artillery on Pz Vs and Pz VIs when they saw them - which often resulted in immobilzation which was a 'mission kill' if the Germans were attacking.
"5 Shermans would never be enough to take out a Tiger. On the Eastern front the Tiger enjoyed a K/D well beyond 10/1 against the T34. The T34 is a far better tank than the M4."
The 5 Shermans/Pz VIE is from Allied data and it's for real. There's a couple of reasons behind the difference:
1. Average range of engagement in NWE was ~ 1/4 of what it was on the Eastern front. Pz VIEs on the Eastern front had alot of engagements where they could 'cue up' on T-34s at 1500-2000 meters. With the far superior gunsight/optics of the Pz VIE as compared to the T-34...not a good day to be a T-34 crewman.
2. Allied artillery in NWE was far more flexible, and used smoke far more often than Russian artillery. Russian artillery usually equalled a huge barrage vs. MLR at the start of an attack. Pz VIEs come in on flank of Russian attack as counterattack force = they weren't targeted by artillery 1/5 as much as they were in NWE.
3. The terrain of NWE provided far more cover for flanking movements vs. German armor. What's grim is it still ended up being a '5 to 1 average'.
Mike/wulfie
-
The first Tigers encountered in North africa were killed by 6 pounders.
Micheal Wittmans Villers Bocage rampage was ended by a 6 pounder.
The US had far better tactical control of its tanks then the soviets..better coordination and fire control systems. In perfect tiger country like the open stepp..ya 5 would not likely be enough, In the bocage or more tight terrrain..it definalty is. If 3 of them are willing to die.
-
Originally posted by LLv34_Camouflage
1800 kg is about 4000lbs. A near miss should throw the Tiger 30ft in the air. :)
Camo
It doesn't. Last night I thought I had a direct hit on a Tiger I tank with a 1.8kg bomb (Tiger was parked in the middle of the crater the bomb left) but it was still firing at friendly ground vehicles. If it was a direct hit like I thought it was, or near hit like it appeared to be, the Tiger should have been destroyed regardless but it wasn't. It was only when a friendly Tiger I starting firing at it did it finally die.
The damn beast is tough and I can't help but chuckle when I see Spitfires trying to strafe the Tiger with their .303 spit wads.
Ack-Ack
-
Originally posted by Pongo
The first Tigers encountered in North africa were killed by 6 pounders.
Micheal Wittmans Villers Bocage rampage was ended by a 6 pounder.
Okay - no shame here - you're confusing 6 Pdr. (57mm) with 17 Pdr. (very high velocity 76mm, basically British version of Pz V MA with very effective APDS ammunition).
The Pz VIEs that were knocked out in N. Africa were caught in a very well sprung ambush involving British MBTs, 17 Pdr. AT, and 25 Pdr. artillery (British artillery crews/control/etc. was superb).
Wittman was thought to have been killed by a 500 lb. direct hit from a Typhoon for some time, but later it was discovered that he was killing tangling with 2 or 3 Sherman 'Firefly', which carried 17 Pdr. as MA.
Mike/wulfie
-
I've killed a couple of Tigers with a Panzer via point blank flank shots into tread area (first one blew up with one hit, second died later after two hits). I had taken up a hull down position at right angles to where the Tigers were cresting a hill on the way to our base. It is possible- but given the nature of the AH terrains the probability of getting that close is usually nil.
Frontal shots normally bounce off- I once nearly killed myself with a ricochet off a Tiger.
-
Was somewhat surprised myself.
As a base was taken, an enemy tiger was parked at the runway end. A group of vehicles was already launched, and hammering him from all sides at less than 300 yards. I got a panzer, and drove it to his rear, a m8 was already there, and at approx 200 yards I fired AP after AP straight into the rear end of the Tiger. After 20 or so AP I switched to HE, still nothing. Still straight in to the rear motorcompartment.
A whole group af VH was still firering at him, while planes in
bunches dived on him.
At last it exploded.
But I still wished I filmed it.
One word. UNBELIVEABLE.
Supertank indeed.
-
Originally posted by wulfie
Okay - no shame here - you're confusing 6 Pdr. (57mm) with 17 Pdr. (very high velocity 76mm, basically British version of Pz V MA with very effective APDS ammunition).
The Pz VIEs that were knocked out in N. Africa were caught in a very well sprung ambush involving British MBTs, 17 Pdr. AT, and 25 Pdr. artillery (British artillery crews/control/etc. was superb).
Wittman was thought to have been killed by a 500 lb. direct hit from a Typhoon for some time, but later it was discovered that he was killing tangling with 2 or 3 Sherman 'Firefly', which carried 17 Pdr. as MA.
Mike/wulfie
lol
I am refering to villers bocage..where he earned fame in the west. Not where he was killed.
no His Tiger on the day of his rampage against the desert rats was stopped by a flank shot by a 6 pounder...Im looking at a picture of the exact tank and location..dont go there..
And I have read several times that the first time that Brits met Tigers in North africa..they killed them with 6 pounders.
As the introduction of the Tiger in Tunisia predates even the 17 pounder on the jury rigged 25pounder cariage by 4 months. I think it unlikly the 17 pounder was involved.
I am not making this up...killing a tiger from the flank was well within the capabilities of the 6 pounder...You seem to be saying it isnt.
-
In the MA, it seems to take a DIRECT hit by a bomb to kill a Tiger. This includes the IL-2's 250kg bombs (haven't tried the 100kgs on them). Basically, if you hit it, it seems to die. At least that has been my experience. Anything short of a direct impact doesn't do much, if anything.
-
I would say it is closer to the truth to just let direct hits kill it then to allow area hits to kill it. Especially as there is not place to hide in the game.
-
I agree with Pongo...make a direct hit kill it. What's the point of commanding a tank if any shmuck with a bomb can kill you by dropping it close to you?
SOB
-
I love playing the Villers Bocage rampage mission in Combat Mission. Though I aways kill the 6 pound gun before it can Kill Wittmans Tank. Sad thing is I've had Wittmans tank knocked out by an M5 Sturat at close range.
-
Ive killed a few panzers with one 1k bomb. 20m cannon dont seem to have any effect at all and likewise the 40mm on the HurrIID. I once dropped 4 1k eggs with two direct hits and one each fore and aft. He continued to fire throughout and finally ditched before I could bring more eggs.
In a Tiger I have killed them from the flank with one shot. From the rear they seem to be unkillable or at least require some luck. I managed to put ten shots into one from the rear while he turned his turret 180 degrees and then took his time getting the range. He killed me before I killed him and I didnt miss at all.
I have downed one plane with the pintle machine gun. He tried to put rockets into me and they did hit me but I knocked his wing off.
I have been flanked by Osties in the Tiger and they can kill them. One shot from a Panzer IVH can kill one too.
Worse I have heard reports that an M16 can kill one though they have yet to damage mine.
-
Bagged my first Tiger today with a IID... didn't blow him up, just disabled his turret and tracks. Check my score this tour.
:cool:
Originally posted by GPreddy
Ive killed a few panzers with one 1k bomb. 20m cannon dont seem to have any effect at all and likewise the 40mm on the HurrIID.
-
M16s can't kill a tiger, but they can knock the tracks off.
-
Originally posted by Pongo
lol
I am refering to villers bocage..where he earned fame in the west. Not where he was killed.
no His Tiger on the day of his rampage against the desert rats was stopped by a flank shot by a 6 pounder...Im looking at a picture of the exact tank and location..dont go there..
And I have read several times that the first time that Brits met Tigers in North africa..they killed them with 6 pounders.
As the introduction of the Tiger in Tunisia predates even the 17 pounder on the jury rigged 25pounder cariage by 4 months. I think it unlikly the 17 pounder was involved.
I am not making this up...killing a tiger from the flank was well within the capabilities of the 6 pounder...You seem to be saying it isnt.
Well part of the miscommunication is my fault - I naturally assumed you meant 'engaged frontally', which was a dumb thing to assume.
6 Pdr. is totally capable of penetrating Pz VIE flanks.
For the North Africa engagement I was referring to, check out 'Osprey - Vanguard #20, The Tiger Tanks'. The British set up an ambush with mines, pre-registered 25 Pdr. artillery, and 17 Pdr. AT guns and hammered a bunch of German MBTs, some of them being Tigers.
Mike/wulfie
-
"I am not making this up...killing a tiger from the flank was well within the capabilities of the 6 pounder...You seem to be saying it isnt."
I missed this initially.
You never once mentioned flank attacks before now.
The reason for my assumption (that we were talking about penetration vs. frontal armor) is that any AT gun from the same 'era' penetrating the flank armor of almost any MBT is a 'given' to anyone who has studied the subjects involved. Read: "6 Pdr./75mm/etc. could penetrate Pz VIE flanks? NO toejam SHERLOCK". :)
I never said the Pz VIE could not be penetrated on its flanks (contrary to what you alluded to). You never made this specification. Your line of 'reasoning' here is akin to someone (i.e. You) saying...
"The Superbowl Champion team could be beaten by the 3 worst team in the NFL".
(intersperse a bunch of discussion, the NFL equivalent to me talking about 17 Pdr. vs. Tiger - which doesn't equal much of a reach when assuming we're talking about 'vs. frontal armor')
...then you come up with the equivalent of "I meant if the Superbowl Champs were playing their 3d string".
I mean - what was the point of your whole input in this discussion? Are you implying that if the opponent is 'smart' enough then frontal armor doesn't matter, because a 'crafty defender can always get attacks vs. the flanks of any MBT'?
This type of reasoning is absurd. If it had anything to do with reality the British would never have rushed the 17 Pdr. into service.
In short - by not specifying 'vs. the flank' - you were making assumptions about the point of the discussion that no one else was.
Also, I think you are operating under 'Pongo's special rules' when discussing 'kills' of AFVs. You 'lol' when I was talking about Wittman's Pz VIE being 'killed' by Fireflies. Why?
In my book (and the book of almost everyone who has researched the subjects involved seriously), a 6 Pdr. flank hit on a Pz VIE that causes immobilization but no crew casualties is a 'mission kill' at best. If you count 'immobilization or other damage resulting in crew abandonment of MBT' then British artillery 'killed' more German MBTs than any British MBT or AT gun in WW2.
Mike/wulfie
-
I want the Mosquito FB.Mk XVIII with the 6pdr Mollins gun.