Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: AKDejaVu on May 02, 2001, 11:14:00 PM
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I'm doing it in a different format. They can be found at:
Top 10 Website (http://www.dbstaines.com/Top10)
I'm adding them as the night progresses. Right now, I only have the data for Top 10 killers in each and every plane type. This weekend I'll be completing the Top 10 K/D and adding the top 10 vs aircraft type.
Enjoy
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AK this is really cool....your page has found a home in my favorites folder (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Thanks for all the effort Deja (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Thats awesome DJ - thanks bro!
<S>
Nim
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Isn't spelled adieu?
You handsomehunk!
:-)
-SW
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Angus has the most kills from a chute, got to keep my eye out for that one.
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OK, got all of the planes up for "Top 10 Killers In...".
More to come this weekend.
Goodnight all.. the wife looks pissed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
AKDejaVu
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I always knew this ol boy would amount to something someday.
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Wtg!
danish
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Good show AK!..Now if I could just make it on one of the lists.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Drex's P47d25 skills are really lacking. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Kick bellybutton page (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
What i want to know is how people get a 3:0 k/D in a a C47????????????
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Man DejaVu thats one hell of an effort, very slick page. I like your positive side a lot. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Agree with Grun (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Jokes apart, thx DjV.
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From AKDejaVu's page I pop up three or four times....seems as though I can nail anything that comes with in decent range of me. Just remember if I get ya you don't have to worry too much cause I still will not bring my rides home. LOL I am not bragging so don't take it that way. I am laughing at myself because I need to improve my "bringing your ride home" bracket. Boy I bet I'll be standing on the carpet with the Officer In Charge of Supply (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
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Nice work !
btw "So, without further adieu:" what mean adieu in this context ?
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Thanks DejaVu! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Camo
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Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
www.muodos.fi/LLv34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
Brewster into AH!
"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."
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Wohoo ! I made it !!! (A8)
thx mate, nice work (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Saw
[Mass]
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Fixed a couple of listing errors.
Also, notice that you can use the "next" button to cycle through all the listings.
...And a question: Is anyone using Netscape with this? Any problems?
AKDejaVu
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Kewl DJ. Thanks alot!!
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thanks
Eagler
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thanks for nuthin dipshit.
lazs
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Keep it to yourself lazs. The rest of us are extremely grateful for all the work he put in to do this. This is great stuff for newbies and vets, and it's helpful and entertaining to the community as a whole.
He put in a lot of work to do this. There is no reason he should have to do even more work just to remove your whiney butt from the list. Even if he could or would do it, I wouldn't want him to. This is publicly available scoring information he just presents in a very interesting manner. I want to know who all the guys on the list are, and I want my students to be able to see who they are too. If you don't want to be on any of the lists... fly worse. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/) for AH articles and training info!
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Cheater. No way you have 1500 hits already. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Thanks Dj, keep up the good work. Seems I actually made a few of the lists as Sturm6.
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(http://members.home.net/cgoolsby6/sachs1.jpg)
Verkaaft's mei Gwand `I foahr in himmel!
Sell my clothes I am going to Heaven!
[This message has been edited by AG Sachsenberg (edited 05-03-2001).]
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ok lep... so it's ok for you to praise a score system but it's not ok for me to ask to not participate? Why don't you "keep it to yourself" and butt out? If you want to be included then fine but leave me out of it.
I asked the man to keep me out of his private little score system and he ignored me. I don't care how much time he spent on it but certainly a few more seconds to delete my name from the database would not be much after the "hours" of selfless labor spent on it? Sheesh.... it's not like it would skew the "accuracy" or anything... Headmits that there are people who are not included... I just want to one of em.
lazs
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No need to jump on Lazs... his oppinion of this list or myself means very little to me. Besides, it only serves to hijack the thread.
I still need to know:
Anyone with Netscape visited the pages? Did it work OK? They have been generated with FrontPage and I've seen some table related problems with Netscape in the past. Any Yea or Nay comments would be helpful.
AKDejaVu
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DJ works fine in netcape 4.7 and above tested it out just now.
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(http://members.home.net/cgoolsby6/sachs1.jpg)
Verkaaft's mei Gwand `I foahr in himmel!
Sell my clothes I am going to Heaven!
[This message has been edited by AG Sachsenberg (edited 05-03-2001).]
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Tables should work just fine in Netscape or IE; the formatting may be a bit different, but you will see the info. The real problem you will have with Netscape will occur if you attempt to use any active elements from FrontPage. Scrolling marquees (Netscape doesn't recognize <marquee> ), fly-ins, fades, etc. generated from FrontPage won't work in Netscape.
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Thanks for the headsup on the active elements Kieren.. would this also aply to the hit counter?
As a rule, I adhere to the "K.I.S.S." principle when generating these types of pages. Less features means less problems... plus less bandwidth. People want the information not the whirlygigs.
Had a web sight that took a million hits between 1996 and 1998... just 100k of text and tables (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
AKDejaVu
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I think the counter should be ok. The problem usually occurs where FP uses the Microsoft version of java- naturally Netscape won't support any of that. I have used FP to make pages before, and the counters typically worked ok.
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Cool.. thanks Keiran <S>
AKDejaVu
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Nice work <S>
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<S> Nice work.
14 kills in a chute, LOL.
Who says we need sidearms (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Zippatuh
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Sirloin, look again. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Cheater. No way you have 1500 hits already. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Looks like it is counting a hit every time one of the pages is loaded (or re-loaded). Basically, divide the total by 40 or so and its more accurate... I'm gonna pull the hit counter out this evening... or just leave it on the first page.
AKDejaVu
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ty for the site (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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The only page wich shows on my browser is the "top 10 killers per plane". The others open an empty page. No stats there, that I can see.
Internet explorer 5.0 here (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/confused.gif)
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Ram, if you see the stats for the "top 10 killers per plane", then you are seeing all there currently is to see.
The rest will be in this weekend (see above).
AKDejaVu
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Ahhh...thanks (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) And nice work <S>
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Nice work once again Deja...
Did anyone notice how many of the a/c have a small group of 3-4 top pilots all within spitting distance of each other. Then a major jump down to the bottom 6 or so (ie look at tiffie stats, or 190A5 and so on).
Then look at the Chog and N1ki stats (even Spit 9), see how the top 10 is a continuous evenly spread lot, not just a specialised 4 or so pilots?
I wonder how much the stats will change over the next tour.
It would be interesting to throw a average kill difference between top 10 pilots per a/c on there (ie spread), and then see what the spread is like this tour with the chog perking.
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<punt>
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Nice stats DejaVu! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
One suggestion though. As far as I know, the K/D ratios are usually calculated as Kills per Life instead of Kills per Death. Thus K/L would be same as K/D+1. I suppose that you have not yet encountered a situation where someone has not died even once.... in such case you would have to try dividing the kills by 0.. which is not possible.
So howabout making it K/D+1 ???
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Don't much like the K/D+1 formula for individual aircraft. It serves to skew those with less kills significantly more than it skews those with higher.
It works well for total k/d, but that's about it.
And, I do use K/D+1 for those that have 0 kills, but someone that is 17:0 will still be ranked higher than someone that is 17:1.
AKDejaVu
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uhh... so someone with 18:1 would be better on the list than one with 17:0 ??? ...when actually his K/D+1 would be only 9.0 against 17.0 of the latter guy.
I just tend to value one's own life more than the kills achieved by sacrificing it.
Still... nice work
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Blauk, if someone with a 17:0 record wanted to get higher in the K/D.. they should have ventured one more sortie and risked getting killed.
The only difference in WW2 between a pilot that had 17 kills and lived and a pilot that 18 kills then died is the fact that the latter had one more kill than the other (statistically). Nobody can say wether the 17 kill pilot would have made 18.
BTW.. by your formula.. someone with a 20:1 record would be below someone with 11:0.
AKDejaVu
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Hola!
Well, I honestly thought that I had a crap tour last tour and didn't expect to make any top Ten, yet I made the Typhoon, Yak-9T, B26 and Pnzr (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Well, not that it means anything but I'm pleased that my K/D is pretty good compared to the other peeps!
Salute AKDejaVu!
Regards
Nexx
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
The only difference in WW2 between a pilot that had 17 kills and lived and a pilot that 18 kills then died is the fact that the latter had one more kill than the other (statistically). Nobody can say wether the 17 kill pilot would have made 18.
Yes, in WW2 like in real life they had and we have only one life. However in AH we all have as many lives as we need.
In AH 18 kills and 1 death does not mean that all 18 kills were achieved before the death. Much more likely 9 kills, death and another 9 kills. Thus the guy is a 9 kill guy. It is not about predicting if someone would have got more kills.
That 18 kill guy is ahead in the other chart where you count the kills only. Is it not the idea of the K/D (or K/L) chart to make a comparison to one's own losses. If someone can perform sowell that he is not killed at all, he deserves to be noted. It is like comparing the living WW2 veterans and the ones who died in action. If one of each both had 10 kills, one lived, abother died... which one did a better job?
BTW.. by your formula.. someone with a 20:1 record would be below someone with 11:0.
Yes.. like mentioned above, 11:0 has better performance and he is still alive. 20:1 has had 2 lives and scored average 10 kills in each.
Just my opinion. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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You talk only about average and not about risk. The person with less kills in an aircraft has risked less statistically. That should not be used to an advantage.
The +1 in the divisor is a common feature for hands-off programming or large number calculations. Its not a common feature for figuring out calculations below 100 (where most of these stats occur).
So... no point in going on any further... its not going to change.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
You talk only about average and not about risk. The person with less kills in an aircraft has risked less statistically. That should not be used to an advantage.
Uhh.. risk?? What has K/D to do with risk? Kills dont mean how often someone has been in a battle and risked his life. Number of sorties has some info on that, but still no info on how many fights have happened. D means how many times one has been shot down, not how much you have risked. I just dont agree that 0 times is same as 1 times. Just as well 1 times could be same as 2 times.
Someone may have risked his life in 10 sorties, he has been good to avoid getting killed though and just been a bad shot.. has scored only 2 kills. Another guy flies one sortie, gets 2 kills and dies... 2:0 and 2:1. No.. it does not tell anything about risk.
The +1 in the divisor is a common feature for hands-off programming or large number calculations. Its not a common feature for figuring out calculations below 100 (where most of these stats occur).
You lose me here... I am only saing that 0 deaths is not same as 1 death... and that 1 life is not same as 2 lives.
So... no point in going on any further... its not going to change.
If you say so... but if someone has not been killed at all in some plane, your stats are not correct for him.
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Not trying cause any rifts here, but Top 10 caught my eye.
Check out Deft`s WB Scorepages (http://warbirds.jackedin.com)
The different areas might give you some ideas.
---------------
328th Fighter Squadron
352nd Fighter Group.com
Blue-Nosed Bastards of Bodney
[This message has been edited by Skybax (edited 05-07-2001).]
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uhhh... ohhh.. truly pro stuff those WB stats (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Did anyone notice that they use the +1 in their ratios (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
... ok I shut up (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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You lose me here... I am only saing that 0 deaths is not same as 1 death... and that 1 life is not same as 2 lives.
Actually.. you are the one making it different.
I'm saying that 6 kills and zero deaths will always rank higher than 6 kills and 1 death. Unfortunately, it is impossible to show a k/d fraction with zero in the denominator, so 1 is added for the sake of display. 6:0 is still displayed.
Where we vary greatly is under the premis that 6 kills and 1 death equates to a 3:1 k/d ratio.
Once again... 6:0 will win out... but if the pilot wants a better record than someone at 7:1 he should have RISKED more and flown another sortie. That's what the risk is blauk... the more its done.. the more the chance for an outlier. That's why there is a minimum on the number of kills required to get into the k/d list.
And as for deft's scoring pages.. they are completely automated... thus the need for the hand's off error avoider +1.
AKDejaVu
[This message has been edited by AKDejaVu (edited 05-07-2001).]
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heya
nice work DJV
One thing (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Darling kills in P51D: 29
Darling deaths in P51D: 3
Is there a lower threshold to attain before being listed? Never mind me, just being silly (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
This gives one something to aim for after tour 16. Now just for trying to survive in the Pony (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Regards
Dar
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Darling.
As it says; (#10 pilot's total kills)/2 <rounded up>
Unfortunatly the P51 is reasonable popular so #10 in the "Top Killers" list has 97 kills.Thus you would have to have at least 49 kills to make the list :=)
Thats a lot of kills if you only fly once in a while.But you might consider a change to the somewhat less popular B model (and of course slightly more difficult to get those elusive kills...).Looks like 15-20 kills might be enough.Might.
Good luck. ;=)
danish
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AKDejaVu,
One more argument...
You defend your current calculation with the risk aspect. You also say that pilots who have risked more and have got more kills would suffer with K/D+1. I have 2 examples for you which tell the opposite. In your current system the guys who have more kills suffer.... it is no dependent on kills, but on deaths.
Check 109G-2 K/D
wilbuz 12:2 = 6.0 (12:3 would be 4.0)
DB603 210:42= 5.0 (210:43 would be 4.88)
DB has risked more and killed more, still you rank him below wilbuz. Same concerns 1Wmaker1 and StSanta.
So it is not about kills like I said... it is about deaths. Those pilots who have only 1 death benefit most of K/D when comparing to K/D+1. When one has more deaths the difference becomes smaller... on the other hand more deaths also usually mean more kills, so the top killers suffer. But who suffers most are the guys with 0 kills since they are penalized as having died once.... executed for the sake of not having to divide by 0 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
This is confusing to me. Why do you want to use a formula which gives the 1 death guys the best deal, a bit worse deal for those who died killed and risked much more and the worst deal to guys who did not die at all?
You say you do it by hand... maybe that is why you dont want to change it. A huge job.. S! for that. If it was all in a database, all that was needed was to add +1 to some places. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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btw, my 109G-6 was 27:8 =3.38
Should I not be on the list too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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blauk its his list let him do it how he likes
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No blauk, my current system does not do what you claim.
The only real rule that needs special consideration is the zero death pilot. That's it.
K/D for people with deaths will all be recorded with 100% accuracy. The people with zero deaths will be limited by the total number of kills since there is no way to guess just how much farther they would have gone without a death. If they wanted to go farther, they would have risked more.
The minimum number of kills required to make the k/d list is the screen for the minimum risk required to make the list. The only time that doesn't work well is with lesser used aircraft where someone with less than 20 kills can make the list.
So.. I know why I am doing the way I am. I'm sorry that you seem to have such a difficult time with it. I really hope you get over it soon.
AKDejaVu
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btw, my 109G-6 was 27:8 =3.38
Should I not be on the list too
Must have missed that on the list. Most of the K/D was done by hand after sorting... oops.
BTW.. can't believe that after all you've posted you are just now mentioning this.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
No blauk, my current system does not do what you claim.
LOL.. that is a very thorough argument (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I can show you that it DOES. Try to prove me wrong. Read on.
The only real rule that needs special consideration is the zero death pilot. That's it.
Why is that? Is it because you encourage pilots to die once... not many more times than once and certainly not 0 times? To me it seems that it is because you cannot divide the kills by 0. The correct way would then be to add one to all deaths (converting them to lives) and thus keep all the data equal and balanced. Instead you make up your own rules and formulas and therefore distort the data and produce irrelevant changed results.
That +1 in those warbirds ratios and also in official AH stats is not there only because they are automated. It is there because that is the way how to calculate such ratios. You cannot reinvent mathematics u know.
K/D for people with deaths will all be recorded with 100% accuracy. The people with zero deaths will be limited by the total number of kills since there is no way to guess just how much farther they would have gone without a death. If they wanted to go farther, they would have risked more.
Just as well there is no way of knowing how much farther anyone would have gone before their second death. That is no basis for separating the 0 kill guys. Once again, this risk factor does not work in your formula. After one death the risk is discouraged. One death is the optimum for your formula. Look below how much the data is distorted:
(http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34/202stats.jpg)
Snefens has flown more and risked more, but he is the one who is wronged on your chart. Then again all the guys who have only died once are getting a huge raise.
You argue that 6:0 is less than 7:1 because: "6:0 will win out... but if the pilot wants a better record than someone at 7:1 he should have RISKED more and flown another sortie." So how about if you compare 7:1 to 8:2 ????? Why is 7:1 =7.00 and 8:2 =4.00
What is the huge difference between dieing zero times and once compared to dieing once and twice? Should the 7:1 guy not also need to risk more to be better than 8:2 guy??? So That risk reasoning does not work!
The minimum number of kills required to make the k/d list is the screen for the minimum risk required to make the list. The only time that doesn't work well is with lesser used aircraft where someone with less than 20 kills can make the list.
Minimum limit is ok, minimum kills that is, but not minimum deaths. The basic reason for the mistake in your thinking is that you are comparing kills to DEATHS. Kills are not achieved in deaths. They are achieved during lives or careers. Death only separates two lives in this game.
Since you disregard one life for all (exept those who have not died at all) those who have less lives also get more benefit. One death guy has 2 lives in the cost of 1 (+100%), while those pilots who have flown more and died more get e.g. 11 lives for cost of 10 (+10%). Your thinking does not encourage pilots to risk more than the very first death. Period.
So.. I know why I am doing the way I am. I'm sorry that you seem to have such a difficult time with it. I really hope you get over it soon.
Finally... No , I will not get over it. I dont need your stats really, we make our own for my squadron. If you insist on distorting the results with your own formulas, I will just forget youre stats ever existed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) The reason I wrote here was to help you and the resto of the guys who look at your hardly worked stats. That is one reason I had not checked my 109G-6 in your stats earlier (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
The pity here is that you are doing a lot of work in vain only because of a small mathematical error you refuse to see. Please ask some mathematician, your math teacher, just anyone who know about statistics and cases like this (when comparing to a factor which may be 0). It is a great thing that you are doing such stats, but what is the idea of them if they show incorrect distorted results.
To Zig,
Would it be proper not to tell someone of his mistake and just let him do a huge load of work for nothing? I think that would really be a disfavor.
Think it over.. try to prove my points wrong and you may realize your own mistake. It is not such a big one... (+1) !!
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Why is that? Is it because you encourage pilots to die once... not many more times than once and certainly not 0 times?
No.. because I encourage pilots to fly more. If a pilot doesn't want to risk death by taking a plane up again... that's his choice. Once again, someone that is 6:0 will be higher on the list than someone who is 6:1... he just won't beat out someone who is 7:1. Its pretty simple.
Snefens has flown more and risked more, but he is the one who is wronged on your chart. Then again all the guys who have only died once are getting a huge raise.
Wow.. going through life with blinders on must be your forte. You do realize you moved the guy that has risked the least up to number two in the rankings with your system?
BTW... this isn't a cumulative score page.. it doesn't rank people according to anything other than K/D. That's KILLS divided by DEATHS. 6 kills to 1 death = 6/1.. not 6/2.
For the pilot with 0 deaths, I can either leave them off since the math is impossible, or I can add 1 to the denominator so I can show some ratio in an impossible situation.
What I am not going to do is skew all the ratios just to meet some "everyone else does it" philosophy. It doesn't work for numbers this small... and that's the only place it really is being used here... virtually all of the situations are under 10 kills. Its really a moot point.
AKDejaVu
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LOL (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I GIVE UP. You only choose to read what you please. You make pointless counter arguments and do not answer relevant questions. To argue is to provide evidence and comparisons. You did nothing to prove me wrong.
Just for your own sake I hope you someday understand how very wrong you are in this matter (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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And you make it sound as if you were willing to discuss it... rather than convince me you were right.
I guess that works both ways eh?
AKDejaVu
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Thanks for all your work AKDejaVu
Amazing some people are just never happy, almost like they go around picking things apart just to find fault and squeak about them.
109f King again <-total kills, who cares about k/d's it's all about tenacity (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Eagler
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Ah, no I understand, DJV, as per danish's explaination. I'll be sure to get more kills this tour.
Current stats:
Darling kills in P-51D: 59
Darling deaths in P-51D: 18
K/D 3.1 approx.
Now just for keeping it up.
BTW, where do you dig up the info DJV?
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2nd Lt. Hogni "Darling" Gylfason
332nd FG "Flying Mongrels"
143rd Pursuit Wing
(http://peterson.gm.is/img/darling_143.jpg)
[This message has been edited by darling (edited 05-08-2001).]
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BTW, where do you dig up the info DJV?
The only hard info to dig up is pilot ids. Most of them I retrieved from squad listings. The rest from memory or by request. I have about 1600 ids I'm tracking right now, though I'll most likely trim that down next tour.
The rest is available to everyone using the stats page. I just retrieve each pilot's stats and place them into a table... then sort the table. The retrieval process has been automated so that the stats are grabbed while I sleep. It takes about 8 hours to obtain.
The rest is done by hand. Its not too bad though, since it has contributed to a ten fold increase in my Excell usage skills (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
AKDejaVu
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AKDejaVu:It is a great amount of work you did to compile the different lists in such an easy to read format.I appreciate your effort and I thank you for doing it.
ET:The oldest pilot.